Yea I suppose it's way more efficient to have 600 people @ 50k average per PROJECT instead. I can't speak for Valve - but if there's one thing that modern AAA game industry excels at, it's at being inefficient.HocusPocus said:It is amazing how you can operate like this when everyone makes 100k or more on your payroll.
I can't speak for Blue Sky, but Pixar really isn't as great as many would assume they are to work at.Pixar? Bluesky?
Definitely.
The very people who get a shitload of money off the hard work from others.
So how did this get out anyway?
Valve is not a very leaky ship.
I've been saying for fucking years that this is how Valve worked (since this is how Gabe Newell and other Valve employees have always emphasized that's how they worked in interviews) when talking about its games, and nobody seemed to listen to me or believe me. People just assumed Gabe Newell has the role of the auteur of all the company's games, or that there's some rigid structure within the company that places Gabe Newell at the top, and that's simply not true.
I guess I can just chalk that up to the fact that a lot of people on these sort of forums are college aged or just starting out their careers, and don't really have a clear idea of what sort of careers are out there, having only had office experience in more conventional corporate structures, or no office experience at all.
admittedly I haven't been posting/reading GAF all that much for a while, now, and was speaking more generally but, yes, I actually have encountered people on GAF that seem to believe otherwise.What? We've known this for for a while, this is merely confirming what a lot of people on GAF already knew. I really doubt anybody was arguing with you.
So how did this get out anyway?
Valve is not a very leaky ship.
They can have this kind of a loose working structure because they have somewhat of a stable income from Steam, right?
They can have this kind of a loose working structure because they have somewhat of a stable income from Steam, right?
So they are trying the Apple approach.
Yea as amazing as it sounds it must be very very difficult to get things done efficiently. Some structure is always good.AMazing handbook.
Also, amazing way to treat employees.
I am very interested though in how the "flat" structure works in practice. I mean, having the power to decide where you go and what you do does seem counter-productive when actually trying to finish shit.
I imagine that they only hire people that are independent and are capable of being managers on their own. That everyone involved knows the value of structure and deciding that even though they have choice that it is still important to fill in the roles that are needed to be done.
I wonder if its one of the contributing factors to things taking so long at valve, but its an acceptable sacrifice to them because they stay happy and profitable.
I imagine that they only hire people that are independent and are capable of being managers on their own. That everyone involved knows the value of structure and deciding that even though they have choice that it is still important to fill in the roles that are needed to be done.
This is the key, and what people critical of this business philosophy need to note. We tend to view business through the filter of "work is for money so I can live", and thus it's hard to believe a business can operate like this. But Valve seems to revolve around goals set by individuals. Goals set because these individuals actually want to create something for personal, creative reasons.
In terms of video games, it strikes me as basically a mod scene with an income. Modders are people who get together, plan, collaborate, and create work with no promise of financial reimbursement. Somehow, just by wanting to create something and having the personal drive to do it, they manage to end up with a finished product. Valve is similar. A bunch of people want to make Portal 2, so they talk about Portal 2, and start making Portal 2. It happens because they want it to happen.
Which isn't that suprising considering where a large portion of their hires come from.
The mod scene if it wasn't clear.
From what I've heard from my links to the industry, producers get a shitload of money.Actually, production is one of the lowest paid disciplines in the industry, and often the first to be downsized.
If by freedom you mean living at work, sure.Yea as amazing as it sounds it must be very very difficult to get things done efficiently. Some structure is always good.
I think Google has a good mix between freedom and structure.
I guess it can be seen like that.From what I've heard from my links to the industry, producers get a shitload of money.
If by freedom you mean living at work, sure.
They (along with Pixar) have designed the company in such a way that you wouldn't want to leave.
I just personally don't think that's a good thing.
Shucks. I should have double majored in programming and art design. And then self made an innovative game. And graduated at the top of my class. And then infiltrated Valve at a job fair.
Looks like a really neat work environment.
Im tiredlol, it all makes perfect sense now!
I think we actually only know of 3 people who left Valve: Antonov, Swift and Harrington (if he counts) and I think at least Swift left by her own terms.
I think we actually only know of 3 people who left Valve: Antonov, Swift and Harrington (if he counts) and I think at least Swift left by her own terms.
Bram Cohem (creator of Bit Torrent) also left Valve. He was working on Steam.
Minh Le, Counter-Strike creator, also quit Valve. This sort of working environment was his exact stated reason why he left.
I thought the working environment was the catalyst for the reason - nobody thought it was right to make Counter-Strike 2 yet.
Minh Le, Counter-Strike creator, also quit Valve. This sort of working environment was his exact stated reason why he left.
But things never really got off the ground, the project ended up being put on the shelf, and Counter-Strike 2 died there. But the pressure was there for him to do something big; pressure he didn't care for. So Minh and Valve agreed to part ways on good terms (he still keeps in touch with people there), and he started his own project soon afterwards. Then he promptly fell off the video gaming map.
http://uk.pc.ign.com/articles/102/1028810p1.html
Yeah....After reading that, I would, never, ever, ever want to work at Valve.
Yeah....After reading that, I would, never, ever, ever want to work at Valve.
Cause it would contain scary truths.great read... why doesn't my company have a cool handbook for employees?
This is the key, and what people critical of this business philosophy need to note. We tend to view business through the filter of "work is for money so I can live", and thus it's hard to believe a business can operate like this. But Valve seems to revolve around goals set by individuals. Goals set because these individuals actually want to create something for personal, creative reasons.
In terms of video games, it strikes me as basically a mod scene with an income. Modders are people who get together, plan, collaborate, and create work with no promise of financial reimbursement. Somehow, just by wanting to create something and having the personal drive to do it, they manage to end up with a finished product. Valve is similar. A bunch of people want to make Portal 2, so they talk about Portal 2, and start making Portal 2. It happens because they want it to happen.
You would be surprised how most people will actually work when you give them a great environment to work in.To be honest, I find this unbelievable. How do they ever get anything done? If everyone just does what they want to, who does all the shit stuff nobody wants to do but is required? Seriously, my job is 80% boring essential shit and 20% stuff you actually applied to the job to do.
If everyone just does what they want to, who does all the shit stuff nobody wants to do but is required?