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[REV 09]

The most powerful country in the world is run by an extremely vocal (and loud) minority. So if they can pull that off I'm confident that we can fix gaming and offer a solution that actually does work for everyone instead of just the lazy people.

Your use of "lazy" is very short-sighted.

Also, there is no solution that will work for everyone. People like different things and want different experiences. Dark Souls seems like a game made specifically for you, but I couldn't play an hour of it before turning it off.

 

[Jac_Solar]

See but it doesn't. You can traverse the world as much as you'd like, fast travel is an option. Just pretend it doesn't even exist if you need to, use your imagination.

If a game is designed in such a way that the player needs to make up his/her own rules just to get some sort of satisfaction out of it, it has failed as a game. Challenge is one of the most important aspects of a game -- the sense of progression and such, not just being better than whatever.

"but you don't have to use ***" isn't a valid argument. If it's there, and you don't use it, you are effectively writing your own rules -- not following the game rules, the rules that were designed to offer you an enjoyable experience -- the reason for why you are playing games in the first place.

 

[DryvBy]

Booo.

Why do you care if others can use it? If it's there and you don't want to use it, don't use it.

With school and work now, I don't have a lot of time to play my favorite old RPGs because of the travel adventures.

 

[Sentenza]

So you want to have to manually march to a cave you discovered in the corner of the map for example after you've already been there...just because? Does that make the game more fun? You can still do that if you wish to.

"Time to deploy all the strawmen for this battle, Commander!"

 

[benny_a]

See but it doesn't. You can traverse the world as much as you'd like, fast travel is an option. Just pretend it doesn't even exist if you need to, use your imagination.

Game design decision such as fast-travel influence other parts of the game design. How can I opt-out of that part? I can't, thus it's the part that is being criticized.

Please tell me you don't honestly think that anyone is actually complaining about the alleged perfect game that has fast-travel while the game isn't designed around that. It's insulting.

 

[REV 09]

"Time to deploy all the strawmen for this battle, Commander!"

That wasn't a straw man argument.

 

[Instro]

They keep releasing ugly screens of this game.

 

[JaseC]

I propose we build a man of straw, invigorate him with lightning, and let him have his say.

 

[Kurtofan]

Yeah, well, guess what? I'm arguing exactly against *that*.

I want a fast travel system with some proper design and thought, like the ones plenty of open world games used to have not so long ago, not just gaining automatically the right to warp from place to place as I step in.

So instead of today's fast travel of only being able to warp in places discovered, you want the system of being able to warp ANYWHERE on the map regardless of whether you discovered something or not?with a few inconsequential drawbacks like random fights?

 

[sflufan]

They keep releasing ugly screens of this game.

It's the same damned screens since the original Game Informer article - they haven't released any new media yet

 

[leadbelly]

I don't know. It appears to be lacking something. Of course they're early screenshots, but still, it doesn't look all that much better than the Witcher 2.

I never thought The Witcher 2 was that impressive graphically either. I've never really understood why people rate the visuals in that game so highly. I'm talking 1080p maximum settings as well.

 

[shinobi602]

"Time to deploy all the strawmen for this battle, Commander!"

Wat...

 

[Sentenza]

That wasn't a straw man argument.

Yes, it was, because he implied I said something that I didn't said.
That's the very definition of strawman.

I never claimed that I want the player to walk for hours to go from a spot to the other or anything like that.
I said I want a properly designed, contextual fast travel system instead of a dull debug tool to warp anywhere on the map.
Stuff like a network of fast travel points (teleport gates or runes, for instance) instead of being simple able to teleport anywhere at any time.

So instead of today's fast travel of only being able to warp in places discovered, you want the system of being able to warp ANYWHERE on the map regardless of whether you discovered something or not?with a few inconsequential drawbacks like random fights?

...What the hell are you talking about?
No, I don't.

 

[LQX]

I don't see how this is related.

Part of the argument against fast travel is that it makes the game more "gamey", but in reality we know most of the people asking for the feature to be cut hop into a car or take public transportation to get around. Not quite like gaming fast travel but most sure as hell do not exert that much energy getting from place to place and in fact most likely rely on a method to cut down on travel time. So to me it is kind of hypocritical to want features cut from game deemed too "gamey", when in reality you rely on fast travel everyday.

 

[Wazzim]

I don't know. It appears to be lacking something. Of course they're early screenshots, but still, it doesn't look all that much better than the Witcher 2.

I never thought The Witcher 2 was that impressive graphically either. I've never really understood why people rate the visuals in that game so highly. I'm talking 1080p maximum settings as well.

The thing that's lacking is proper shadowing.

 

[indigo-cyclops]

I don't know. It appears to be lacking something. Of course they're early screenshots, but still, it doesn't look all that much better than the Witcher 2.

I never thought The Witcher 2 was that impressive graphically either. I've never really understood why people rate the visuals in that game so highly. I'm talking 1080p maximum settings as well.

Its been said many times that they are still developing the rendering system, so during development they're using Witcher 2 renderer.

 

[shinobi602]

Yes, it was, because he implied I said something that I didn't said.
That's the very definition of strawman.

I never claimed that I want the player to walk for hours to go from a spot to the other.
I said I want a properly designed, contextual fast travel system instead of a dull debug tool to warp anywhere on the map..

I didn't imply anything, I was asking you a question to see if that was your position. Instead of being so antagonistic, maybe you can explain what exactly you have in mind?

 

[Violater]

Booo.

I wish there was some way to figure out if you ever use it when the game is released.

 

[Domcorleone]

If a game is designed in such a way that the player needs to make up his/her own rules just to get some sort of satisfaction out of it, it has failed as a game. Challenge is one of the most important aspects of a game -- the sense of progression and such, not just being better than whatever.

"but you don't have to use ***" isn't a valid argument. If it's there, and you don't use it, you are effectively writing your own rules -- not following the game rules, the rules that were designed to offer you an enjoyable experience -- the reason for why you are playing games in the first place.

In the case of fast travel, it is a totally valid argument. How does not using fast travel create a false sense of "challenge"? Fast traveling to places you have already visited is very convenient in certain cases. The problem is too many of you conflate convenience with lack of challenge or easiness when that isn't always the case.

A game should employ fast travel as part of a large risk reward type system, meaning if you fast travel you might miss out on option quests or better armor or miss a event that is relevant to the game. That way it makes the idea of traveling across a vast amount of land seem exciting and rewarding.

Some people love traveling place to place on horse back for hours some don't. What is enjoyable for you is not for others and vice versa. I personally like traveling across the map in games regularly but sometimes if I simply want to get back to a destination ive been before to do the next mission I'll use fast travel. Neither choice has effected my enjoyment of Red Dead, Far cry 3, and skyrim.

The problem is with game design nowadays is that the world maps have gotten 10x larger this gen than last gen. Because of this fast travel has now become almost a necessity for certain games due to their sheer size.

Derrick, when you say that people who want fast travel should play 6 hour shooters you come off as ignorant and childish. People who play RPGs and adventure games care bout the story, gameplay and a bunch of other things, and traveling within the game world is just one portion of the entertainment.

 

[HK-47]

The most powerful country in the world is run by an extremely vocal (and loud) minority. So if they can pull that off I'm confident that we can fix gaming and offer a solution that actually does work for everyone instead of just the lazy people.

Those people have money. What do you have? Just so I can accurately assess the hilarious false equivalency you are making here.

 

[Sentenza]

I didn't imply anything, I was asking you a question to see if that was your position. Instead of being so antagonistic, maybe you can explain what exactly you have in mind?

Of course I can. You can read it here: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=539412
And yeah, I may be a bit touchy on the argument at the moment, because I feel like I'm wasting hours repeating the very same thing every time a newcomer repeats the same questions.

Those people have money. What do you have?

A better idea of system design, apparently.

 

[AstroZombie]

Part of the argument against fast travel is that it makes the game more "gamey", but in reality we know most of the people asking for the feature to be cut hop into a car or take public transportation to get around. Not quite like gaming fast travel but most sure as hell do not exert that much energy getting from place to place and in fact most likely rely on a method to cut down on travel time. So to me it is kind of hypocritical to want features cut from game deemed too "gamey", when in reality you rely on fast travel everyday.

I don't care about fast travel being "gamey". I care about how it affects content design.

If fast travel in Witcher 3 was like a taking bus(costs money, isn't instant) I wouldn't complain.

 

[sflufan]

I just wish they'd get around to releasing some new damned media using the Red Engine 3 renderer so people can stop bitching about how it looks no better/worse than The Witcher 2.

 

[Treemonkeys]

People don't realize they don't have to use a feature if it's there.

Making Skyrim into a 700 hour game isn't my idea of fun.

That's because it's designed around fast travel. It's just lazy, no need to intelligently place quest goals when you can just fast travel everywhere. No need to design intelligent world travel systems when you can just fast travel anywhere. Just a bunch a shitty quests that have you running back and forth across the continent for 20 gold each.

 

[Dennis]

The Witcher?

More like The Fast Traveler.

 

[leadbelly]

Its been said many times that they are still developing the rendering system, so during development they're using Witcher 2 renderer.

Ah, I see. I hope to see a significant improvement in the future then.

 

[Complistic]

Think the forum got messed up. The OP is about tw3 but the thread seems to be about fast travel.

Shoot.

 

[LQX]

I don't care about fast travel being "gamey". I care about how it affects content design.

If fast travel in Witcher 3 was like a taking bus(costs money, isn't instant) I wouldn't complain.

So wanting a game that makes it fun to travel and provides a smartly designed faster travel option instead of free travel all the time to wherever you have been is hypocritical because sometimes its too cold for me to bike so I drive instead?

I get tired of people going on about strawmen but seriously, you just built one.

You will have THREE(foot, horse, and fast travel, which is only available after discovering an are) methods of getting around. What more can they do to make travel more fun...taking away one of the methods?

 

[AstroZombie]

You will have THREE(foot, horse, and fast travel, which is only available after discovering an are) methods of getting around. What more can they do to make travel more fun...taking away one of the methods?

Instant and always available fast travel may negatively impact the way content is designed. It's not simply a matter of "don't like it, don't use it."

 

[UrbanRats]

The Witcher?

More like The Fast Traveler.

Don't worry Dennis, i'll clap for you if no one else does.

 

[Treemonkeys]

You will have THREE(foot, horse, and fast travel, which is only available after discovering an are) methods of getting around. What more can they do to make travel more fun...taking away one of the methods?

I'll be impressed if it doesn't turn out to be shit content bloat like Skyim. Would have much preferred they limit fast travel like in Morrowind or GTA. I will still give the game a chance but as hyped as I was after finishing TW2 I haven't really heard anything about this game that makes it appealing. I loved the focused story content and it seems they are putting their focus on the opposite now.

 

[Sentenza]

You will have THREE(foot, horse, and fast travel, which is only available after discovering an are) methods of getting around. What more can they do to make travel more fun...taking away one of the methods?

Well, I'm still actually wondering what's supposed to be the point of having a horse with the kind of fast travel they are promising, now that you mention it.

I guess it will be in the game just for passionate LARPers.

 

[Treemonkeys]

Well, I'm still actually wondering what's supposed to be the point of having a horse with the kind of fast travel they are promising, now that you mention it.

I guess it will be in the game just for passionate LARPers.

Same thing in Skyrim/Oblivion, the horse is just there for giggles and quickly turns into a frustrating waste of time that you don't use anymore.

 

[Dragon1893]

After this I wont need another game for the rest of my life. I'm OK with fast travel.

 

[Ushae]

Man I am getting so excited for this game. There are many great RPG's coming our way in the next few years.

- Witcher 3
- Project Eternity
- Planescape
- Dark Souls 2
- Dragon Age 3
- Mass Effect
- Fallout 4?

Hopefully 2013/2014 will be great years to be gamers.

 

[Dennis]

Don't worry Dennis, i'll clap for you if no one else does.

Thanks man. That really warms the cockles of my heart.

 

[goodfella]

I can't think of 1 positive for always available fast travel.

People say it saves them time for their limited gaming schedule, I ask them why they even want to play a massive, 20-100 hour (depending if it's a RPG or game like GTA) open world game if they're just warping everywhere. Why not just go back to the 6 hour shooters? Play what fits into your time frame instead of demanding the whole world wraps itself around yours.

When did I do this?

And that's a fucking ironic statement from someone who has notoriously anti-mainstream tastes and yet floods the threads of near every game (released or no) with posts lamenting how games pander to the mass market. Ridiculous.

 

[xenist]

All the problems people are ascribing to fast travel are actually problems with world and quest design.

 

[RoKKeR]

All these opinions, damn.

I like fast travel. I don't have tons of time to game anymore and would rather not spend a huge chunk of time traipsing around the world just to get to an objective.

 

[childplease]

Fast travel is awesome alot of us don't have 400 hours to burn in a game.

Fast travel saves us time. It's a completely optional feature those with time to burn can easily manually travel each time.

 

[Himself]

Im only about 8 hours into the Witcher 2 and this is already one of my most anticipated next gen games.

 

[Krappadizzle]

As people have explained about a billion times in various threads, fast travel being available often informs the whole design of a game. When that happens, it's not something that can be mitigated entirely by player choice.

People said the same thing when Dragon Age 2 was designed without friendly fire in mind (just play on nightmare!) and we all know how that turned out.

IMHO, the best method of fast travel in open world games is still the one introduced in Morrowind: Routes between major cities (Ships, mage guild portals, etc.) and maybe high-level spells that can be aquired later in the game to travel to/from some spots.

Some just don't see it. That thread from yesterday had some pretty clear and concise reasons as to why modern day implementation of fast travel is terrible.

I have no objection to horses or boats to speed up travel considerably but fast travel is the work of the mainstream devil.

You have my axe.

Fast travel is awesome alot of us don't have 400 hours to burn in a game.

Fast travel saves us time. It's a completely optional feature those with time to burn can easily manually travel each time.

SMH. I love this argument that people have. No one is against fast travel. It's when it's done terribly people hate it. Which is now becoming the standard. I work 60+ hours a week and am married. I'm against shitty implementation of fast travel. It's the notion of must beat a game asap that people use fast travel as a crutch. What's wrong with taking your time and enjoying an open world title?

Also, your not Gibonez.

 

[goodfella]

All the problems people are ascribing to fast travel are actually problems with world and quest design.

They are not problems with quest/world design.

Fast travel allows for a different world design than that of a game with no fast travel. I love the exploration and sense of space I get from a game like Dark Souls.

I also love the expansiveness, scope and believability of game world like Syrim.

Games can't have everything, I will continue to play games with and without fast travel, as that is only one small part of a game imo.

 

[Dresden]

Silt striders plz

 

[Dec]

So the argument against fast travel is that games get designed around that mechanic. That doesn't have to be the case. If Morrowind had a toggle option in the settings to enable fast travel, would it be a worse game?

I don't really get why a game has to be designed around fast travel just because it has it. You can say that you think games like Skyrim were lessor because they were designed around fast travel but I don't understand why we should just assume every game will be.

 

[sublimit]

Can Geralt swim?

 

[xenist]

They are not problems with quest/world design.

Fast travel allows for a different world design than that of a game with no fast travel. I love the exploration and sense of space I get from a game like Dark Souls.

Wait, are you actually saying that the problem is with world design then?

 

[smr00]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=539412&highlight=fast+travel

Standard features aren't necessarily good.

I'll reserve judgement until the game actually releases.

Stil, the game looks pretty ambitious so I'm excited/weary.

You have the option to fast travel OR not.

How is this a bad thing? The option is there for people who don't want to spend the limited amount of game time they have backtracking.

For me I just like having in-game logic for it. Portals or whatever. Carriages in Skyrim and Red Dead. Taxi's in modern games. Something that makes sense. And you know, maybe you have to go to the closest town to actually initiate the fast travel. Not just whip up your map when you're in the middle of a forest and go.

It's a video game.. A video game about things that do not exist. Is that logic not good enough?

Seriously i don't understand why people get upset over a feature you are not being forced to use, it's elitist mentality and it's stupid. I can understand if you would rather it have a "in-game logic" explanation but dude its a game. They could just come up with oh you have the ability to teleport as the logic. Fill in the blanks yourself.

 

[sflufan]

Can Geralt swim?

He can, but not in this game.

 

[sublimit]

He can, but not in this game.

Where have i heard this before...?