I feel the same, but I'm concerned by today's two red flags: little to no console footage and item scaling.
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The Witcher 3 - New preview details
- Thread starter shinobi602
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I feel the same, but I'm concerned by today's two red flags: little to no console footage and item scaling.
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
Right, this is the part I don't get, as it's contradictory design philosophy. Bethesda scaling is abhorrent, but at least consistent with the vision: encounters scale, and so do the rewards. From memory CDPR has said there's minor scaling along the main quest line, but nothing significant, and game world encounters do not scale at all. Strong monsters are strong monsters until you can either defeat them with skill, levelling, gear, or a combination of all of these.
Reward scaling to non-scaling encounters has pretty high risk of risk/reward imbalance. I'm giving CDPR the benefit of the doubt in this case, because everything else looks good, and thinking that maybe the scaling window for weapons varies across the board. So it is possible to defeat a beast much higher level and still be rewarded with a significantly more powerful tool than usual, even if said tool is technically scaled down to its weakest variant.
EDIT: It's also probably worth consider how rare weaponry is distributed in the game. Rewards for fighting super monsters don't have to be weapons at all. RPGs have numerous other economies and reward brackets going on. Maybe the cliché "Go into dungeon, fight super monster, get loot" formula isn't applicable in this case.
Reposting to fresh page in hopes this update gets visibility;
Damien Monnier;
Yes maybe you are right actually - you won't even feel the system is in place and you can still get mega epic stuff that will stay static.
I felt like maybe this is something that people wanted to know to understand our thinking but maybe you are right I talk too much sometimes about our technical stuff (I like to explain to people the thinking behind a design without it breaking the illusion).
Maybe just go with the flow don't try to "game" it I would say, that's how I play it and I have a tone of fun.
Source
Damien Monnier;
We also have unique powerful swords and gear that will always be at a set level and set stats. I forgot to mention that - and that's why I came here to reply to your point which is totally valid - in fact as soon as I remembered that I failed to mention it (when the recording was over) I thought to myself "I must go on Reddit and clarify this no doubt somebody picked up on it!". Only some gear is there to 'fit' you but you don't notice it. Fear not it works really well
Source
Damien Monnier;
Yes maybe you are right actually - you won't even feel the system is in place and you can still get mega epic stuff that will stay static.
I felt like maybe this is something that people wanted to know to understand our thinking but maybe you are right I talk too much sometimes about our technical stuff (I like to explain to people the thinking behind a design without it breaking the illusion).
Maybe just go with the flow don't try to "game" it I would say, that's how I play it and I have a tone of fun.
Source
Damien Monnier;
We also have unique powerful swords and gear that will always be at a set level and set stats. I forgot to mention that - and that's why I came here to reply to your point which is totally valid - in fact as soon as I remembered that I failed to mention it (when the recording was over) I thought to myself "I must go on Reddit and clarify this no doubt somebody picked up on it!". Only some gear is there to 'fit' you but you don't notice it. Fear not it works really well
Source
SliChillax
Member
I don't understand the point of levelling up if the enemies will be harder like Borderlands 2. What's the point of being level 100 if enemies are basically bullet sponges? The whole point of levelling up is to feel like a god after you achieve a high enough level, not to make your armour look cooler.
Kindle books? Published by Amazon? Encoded for a device that's made by Amazon? And sold exclusively by Amazon? But sold by Not Amazon? I don't think you're going to have much luck with that.
As for the order, at least try to do a teeny bit of digging.. it's not like it's hard to find:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Witcher
What? Enemies don't level.
Monsters won't scale to your level or gain more HP as you level up or choose higher difficulty. On higher difficulty settings monsters get extra abilities / behavior, but won't get more HP aka won't turn into bullet sponges.
firebranded
Member
Which is the way it should be, can't wait. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.
Thanks for the response. Ive bought books off websites that work on kindle devices. Most notably the latest monster hunter book. So yea it's possible. As for the link to the wiki thanks again.......
toddhunter
Member
I think that is being a bit generous. It seems like they are trying to speak to the dragon age/Skyrim crowd first and the "oh btw our game isn't crap" addition later on.
Remember there are people who love the scaling/empty/everybody is a winner/GOTY/AAAA design philosophy. Lots of people.
They're just in marketing mode is all. The hardcore Witcher crowd will buy the game regardless, but this was a big investment... the more players they can get, the better. So, pander to the crowd.
I have faith they can pull it off. It may be bringing in some elements from other game types, but it's still The Witcher, and it's still CDPR. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.
I have faith they can pull it off. It may be bringing in some elements from other game types, but it's still The Witcher, and it's still CDPR. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.
This. CDPR are excellent. I was confused by that decision but I honestly trust them enough to not worry. Tbh the only thing I worry about is the console versions (ps4 for me.)
Kindle devices can read e-books other than the ones from Amazon. It's just that the ones from Amazon are locked to DRM so they only work on Kindle software or Kindle devices.
Oh hey, I posted something almost exactly like this a while ago lol
But like I said back then, this is the worst case scenario. It's probably likely that the superb stuff guarded by strong enemies and such are all uniques, which I think doesn't scale to your level.
What a relief! Thanx for posting this clarification.Reposting to fresh page in hopes this update gets visibility;
Damien Monnier;
Yes maybe you are right actually - you won't even feel the system is in place and you can still get mega epic stuff that will stay static.
I felt like maybe this is something that people wanted to know to understand our thinking but maybe you are right I talk too much sometimes about our technical stuff (I like to explain to people the thinking behind a design without it breaking the illusion).
Maybe just go with the flow don't try to "game" it I would say, that's how I play it and I have a tone of fun.
Source
Damien Monnier;
We also have unique powerful swords and gear that will always be at a set level and set stats. I forgot to mention that - and that's why I came here to reply to your point which is totally valid - in fact as soon as I remembered that I failed to mention it (when the recording was over) I thought to myself "I must go on Reddit and clarify this no doubt somebody picked up on it!". Only some gear is there to 'fit' you but you don't notice it. Fear not it works really well
Source
BigTnaples
Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
Damien Monnier;
Yes maybe you are right actually - you won't even feel the system is in place and you can still get mega epic stuff that will stay static.
I felt like maybe this is something that people wanted to know to understand our thinking but maybe you are right I talk too much sometimes about our technical stuff (I like to explain to people the thinking behind a design without it breaking the illusion).
Maybe just go with the flow don't try to "game" it I would say, that's how I play it and I have a tone of fun.
Source
Damien Monnier;
We also have unique powerful swords and gear that will always be at a set level and set stats. I forgot to mention that - and that's why I came here to reply to your point which is totally valid - in fact as soon as I remembered that I failed to mention it (when the recording was over) I thought to myself "I must go on Reddit and clarify this no doubt somebody picked up on it!". Only some gear is there to 'fit' you but you don't notice it. Fear not it works really well
Source
Okay. This makes me feel much much better. Awesome.
The people worried about item scaling to the point of calling the game crap if it exists has to be so statistically insignificant...
Given that the designer thinks it works well at balancing the game, maybe people ought to reserve judgement until they see it in action.
That's not for "any RPG". That's a loot game concept. This is an RPG item:
And it doesn't have level requirements or scaling.
That said, at least it seems like they have some weapons that won't be scaling. I still don't see the merit of any scaling at all but that's something.
I certainly see the point of weapon scaling down. It's a big open world game and you can go anywhere.
Let's say there is no scaling. The weapons are distributed across the world with various levels, normal random weapons that you can find in any crate or chest. You get on your horse as a low lvl character and just gallop through the map. You see a chest (i assume not all chests/crates have to be protected by enemies), open it and there is a lvl 20 sword. You go back to where you started as an overpowered motherfucker killing everything with ease. Yep, sounds good.
Or maybe items should be lvl locked, so you can't use this 20 lvl sword? Then you put it in the stash, wait for lvl 20 and then throw it away because it sucks.
Seriously I would give them the benefit of doubt, it's their game and I'm pretty sure they know what will work.
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
Ideally such items are restricted behind gatekeepers either in the form of gameplay challenge or statistic requirements. So, in theory, you wouldn't find a Level 20 required super sword of flame destruction in a random crate out in the wilderness. Said sword would be behind a gatekeeper balanced for roughly that level, and if you acquire it early it is due to applying exceptional skill in an encounter or challenge weighted heavily against you. Ergo, the reward relative to your level is greater.
But CDPR has clarified that not all loot is scaled, and without knowing how loot is scaled and how it's distributed it's impossible to gauge how satisfying their combination is.
I think it can work for sure, but I'm wary, because loot scaling in RPGs, especially action RPGs, often amounts to dissatisfaction and imbalance in challenge vs reward. Given how many right things they seem to be doing with the game, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.
The issue with your story is not the lack of level scaling. The issue is that there is an overpowered sword lying around for no reason in an unguarded chest.
I'm not talking about "super sword of flame destruction", I'm talking about plain normal white (Diablo) sword that just happens to be lvl 20 in some random chest. How you deal with that?
Not generate loot that is such high levels? Then it's other way of scaling.
Put everything behind enemies? Then it's just plain stupid.
But that's a consequence of not scaling. Why a NORMAL sword can't lie around in unguarded chest? Every fucking thing has to be guarded?
It's common in RPGs that you can find normal weapons practically everywhere, but with no scaling at all it would mean that this sword is high lvl.
By it not existing. It makes no sense and is a pure loot-game concept.
Ok, then you throw away high level loot from the game, hence you scale it down to about your character level. And then it causes an outrage on GAF, because scaling.
toddhunter
Member
I keep hearing "It's their game!". This isn't the first RPG ever and it also isn't the first Witcher game. Companies have been making the same stupid mistakes for years and judging by the combat in TW2 these guys are not exactly experts. Either way, enemy scaling makes for a boring game and so does loot scaling.
You might disagree with that, which is fine, but your example doesn't make a lot of sense. Being an overpowered motherfucker killing machine? Yes, why not? That is kind of the point of a RPG.
You went out, you explored, you found an amazing weapon and you can now kill things with ease. You are powerful, you feel a sense of reward from your exploration and you'll probably do more of it, excited each time about what you can find as the challenge ramps up.
Having a weapon that you actually need to work towards to use? That is a driving force to keep you grinding away for 200 hours fetching herbs. Sure it might suck at the end of it, but at least you worked for something.
Meanwhile the game can continue to actually throw badass monsters at you as well to balance things out.
Under your "modern" interpretation, all loot is the same. So you never feel powerful, exploration is pointless, enemy encounters are as dull as possible because you are matched evenly with the same rats you fought in the first dungeon and you basically might as well stay at home.
You are only thinking about it from the perspective of how loots needs to be to fit into what a modern RPG like Skyrim, Dragon Age Inquisition (Or before the clarification TW3) is. Turn it around and consider if the game was properly designed in actually interesting ways. If there was something interesting to fight in those games, if there were dangerous dungeons, if there was a need to actually progress and think about your character. Having incredible loot to find and take it on with would only make things better.
I don't think so, seeing how many people complained at W2 that you become too powerful too quickly. So no, I don't think that being overpowered is fun.
AntiFacebook
Member
Diablo 2\3
I guess you never found that obsidian figurine in the
Vailian embassy
Since you are so fond of distinguishing loot games from RPGs, surely you can agree that hunting for overpowered items belongs to the former rather than the latter, and therefore item scaling should not matter much in RPGs.
Memorabilia
Member
Thank the Gods for very few fetch quests! Holy shit those are seriously the single worst way to pad a games "play time". If this principle holds true for the expansion you can damn well bet I'll be picking that up too.
Why would there just be a random chest standing there with a high level sword and no one to guard it?
.
Let's take the example of Gothic, which is one of the most freeform games i can remember in that regard.
High level stuff was usually on high level enemies or in places that high level enemies would guard (say, the throne room). It was possible to steal or cheese a high level guard or something early, but it was dangerous and difficult - and fun.
I knew i was "breaking" the game while i was doing it, just like i knew killing the entire town would have "broken" the game (a few key characters were immortal but that's like 2 out of a hundred) . But i don't need a dev to protect me from screwing around in an open world.
Give me world where my actions have consequences and it doesn't matter if i got that sword a few hours too early.
Cave Johnson
Member
I thought the whole point of an RPG is to "role-play", hence the abbreviation. Being overpowered is a standard in 90% of the games from Uncharted your everyday COD, it's why you have the capability to do a murdering spree with little penalty. If this is what an RPG is being boiled down to, than what exactly makes it distinct from other "overpowered" characters across genres?
robertsan21
Member
I agree here, Item scaling is shit. I really hope they toss that out before they release it. it makes exploring a lot more fun and exciting when you know your in a dangerous area but the rewards are amazing if you succeed.
Given that they recently added it for balancing purposes, I don't think that is likely.
Item scaling matters in RPGs because RPGs are about presenting a believable world. Item scaling (and all other kinds of scaling) run directly counter to that, from a believable world to a "Truman Show" which exists solely for the benefit of your playthrough.
Why not? Basic loot is just random generated at chest opening. So if there is no scaling it should generate any lvl item.
So you propose that it should scale down or what?
Exentryk
Member
Random generated loot? Isn't that a thing in MMOs?
I propose that there's no need for randomly generated loot chests and really no need for random loot at all, but it doesn't bother me for small stuff. Chests with valuable content have no business being in places that are easy to get to. The best swords belong on characters that wear them, in the deepest dungeons or best fortified castles or they require to kill the strongest monsters to craft.
By building a world consistent like that the "gating" of the player happens naturally.
Take New Vegas, in the starting town you can go in the direction where all the "danger!" panels are. You'll get better gear etc. but as a first time player you'll probably avoid it because everything kills you in 2 (or even one) hit.
According to MSI, The Witcher 3 will support DX12 in PC. Batman AK too.
Maybe someone wants to create a thread.
http://gaming.msi.com/article/msi-is-ready-for-windows-10-are-you-2
Maybe someone wants to create a thread.
Exentryk
Member
My point with my previous post was that random loot is a terrible system for single player games. It's designed to keep the people mindlessly grinding for good items, and that works in MMOs. What's the point of it in single player games? Placing items and weapons in chests manually, the devs can carefully control and balance the game. It just seems like a cheap lazy design if devs are using it in single player games, and also has the potential of making balancing difficult and losing control.
So, don't have random loot, and balance your game with manually placed weapons and gate them properly. Don't rely on things like scaling or level lockout. That's a well designed single player RPG.
Summer Haze
Banned
After playing DA:I, I'm worried that I'm going to be over-leveled for some encounters/areas. I like to be thorough and complete most quests in an area before moving on. I'll be playing on one of the harder difficulties, though, so hopefully that'll help keep the game challenging even if I do get over-leveled.
The actual developers have repeatedly said (recently even) that they will not be supporting DX12 for the time being, so I wouldnt believe MSI.
Damien Monnier;
Yes maybe you are right actually - you won't even feel the system is in place and you can still get mega epic stuff that will stay static.
I felt like maybe this is something that people wanted to know to understand our thinking but maybe you are right I talk too much sometimes about our technical stuff (I like to explain to people the thinking behind a design without it breaking the illusion).
Maybe just go with the flow don't try to "game" it I would say, that's how I play it and I have a tone of fun.
Source
Damien Monnier;
We also have unique powerful swords and gear that will always be at a set level and set stats. I forgot to mention that - and that's why I came here to reply to your point which is totally valid - in fact as soon as I remembered that I failed to mention it (when the recording was over) I thought to myself "I must go on Reddit and clarify this no doubt somebody picked up on it!". Only some gear is there to 'fit' you but you don't notice it. Fear not it works really well
Source
Well there we go. No worries on my end.
toddhunter
Member
Again, that isn't the fault of being powerful, that is the fault of the game being designed so that you fight the same basic enemies over and over again. There are two ways you can fix that, make encounters varied and interesting and lock loot behind appropriate challenges. Alternatively you can limit the characters so that the most basic enemies stay just challenging enough throughout the game and hope nobody cares.
The second way is not the best way.
I don't see the confusion. In a RPG you start out weak killing rats and end up super strong killing gods. I think you have the same problem as the guy above. If you are just playing RPGs where 99% of the enemies are the same and there is nothing else to do then the whole concept isn't going to make sense to you. That isn't what a RPG has to be just because that is what is made and sells to the masses.
lordfuzzybutt
Member
You know how much work that will be for a game of this scale? Hundreds, thousands of chests each containing tens of items. Manually placing all those items is a huge, huge waste of time.
And by random generated loot, it doesn't mean in a chest the loot can be as shit as a pitchfork and another an awesome fucking dragon-one-hit-killer bow.
I imagine it can be based on zones, with different difficulties there will be different parameters which generate items with corresponding stats. So that way, if you are grinding in a level 1 zone, you can never find a level 20 weapon.
Other than that, specific, strategic locations will have manually placed items to serve a purpose for that place.
All in all, random is not totally random, but with constraints and checks all over the place.
From a month ago.
http://www.worldsfactory.net/2015/0...oles-cdpr-will-think-dx12#zLdVTMbkCFaTLyVk.99
They may have already plans for a future update.