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The worst possible examples of a Mary Sue character

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Htown said:
Hey Star Wars EU fans!

How bout that Corran Horn?
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Oh I don't know about that. Isn't he usually in team books (X-Wing) and doesn't outshine the rest of the team.

Jacen Solo gets my vote.
His bullshit win over Mara. Poisoned a master assassin? Really?
 
I only just found out what a Mary Sue is, but the bride from Kill Bill? I just found it to be a horrible character. Tarantino putting Uma in another movie which is basically his fan fiction western/samurai/kung fu movie, and the bride can single handedly conquer any genre of enemy with all her awesome kungfu/ninja skills...
 
Joe Shlabotnik said:
(The Name Of The Wind books)

It was so blatant in the first book that I thought he might be planning on subverting the entire idea in the rest of the series. Haven't read the second book, but from what I hear... apparently not.
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it's so much more blatant int he second book. there's like, sex ninjas.
 
Nausicaa001f.jpeg


Still a pretty great movie, but Nausicaa is most definitely a Mary Sue.

(I haven't read the manga, so I can't speak for it.)
 
I think people need to a better way to define Mary sue than "someone who is really good at stuff" because Kvothe is definitely not one. He's a prodigy, but also a three dimensional character with his own flaws.
 
Veelk said:
I think people need to a better way to define Mary sue than "someone who is really good at stuff" because Kvothe is definitely not one. He's a prodigy, but also a three dimensional character with his own flaws.
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These topics always reveals who understands the correct definition of a Mary Sue (the author's self-insert character) versus incorrect definition (character that's really good at stuff).
 
Veelk said:
I think people need to a better way to define Mary sue than "someone who is really good at stuff" because Kvothe is definitely not one. He's a prodigy, but also a three dimensional character with his own flaws.
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He's immediately awesome at everything. It's pretty well-documented at this point.
http://cboye.wordpress.com/2011/06/30/kvothe-a-mary-sue-case-study/

Is just one site with a break down. The books can be enjoyed regardless, but as for the trope, he fits exactly, in every way.
 
My Metroid fan fictions that I wrote when I was 12 where I myself was a character and I got to fuck Samus Aran were not nearly as Mary Sue as Twilight.
 
whatsinaname said:
Always got that feeling from Harry Potter.
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Nah, Harry is a dick and he gets called out on that, as well as being generally being a pretty bad wizard. Dumbledore would be a better example, I believe.


I think an important part of being a Mary Sue is the way the other characters react to it, as well as if the character is meant to be really just a cool as fuck character, or a way for the author to imagine him(her)self being cool.

Bella from Twilight is a clear cut example of a Mary Sue. Her only flaw (that the books acknowledge) is tha she's clumsy (at least until the fourth book) and despite being "soooo plain" she has the mysterious bad boy and the hunky best friend in love with her, she's so special she's the only one the vampires can't mind-read which is never explained I believe, and everyone loves her and all that.
 
PBalfredo said:
These topics always reveals who understands the correct definition of a Mary Sue (the author's self-insert character) versus incorrect definition (character that's really good at stuff).
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I think the issue stems from character's being overwhelmingly skilled without any real flaws or conflict. Self-insertion in itself is not so bad since I'm sure all writers put some elements of their personality into their characters, but it's when the protagonist is completely successful and unrealistic that it grates on people.

Case in point: the girl from Twilight. She has nothing really interesting about her and yet all these supernatural creatures are basically having a war over her.
 
PBalfredo said:
These topics always reveals who understands the correct definition of a Mary Sue (the author's self-insert character) versus incorrect definition (character that's really good at stuff).
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I wouldn't necessarily say that a mary sue is an Author's self insert. I guess it may come off that way, but it's possible that the author made an overly idealized character without putting himself into that role. It is also possible to write a self-insert while making that character one with flaws.

A mary sue character is a character who warps the plot around itself. The idea of 'being perfect' doesn't actually come from the character being perfectly ideal or extraordinarily powerful, just perfect to solve every problem the plot has without the proper justification for it. A good example is Bella Swan. Everyone in the story loves her and she is the main reason that anything even happens. And this would be fine, if there was a real reason for it, but there isn't. I don't know why all the other characters are so obsessed with her. She just exists and therefore is the center of the universe. Any conflict in the novel stems from her existing and how people react to her, but we have no reason to think that she is anything besides a particularly dull teenage girl.
 
Veelk said:
I wouldn't necessarily say that a mary sue is an Author's self insert. I guess it may come off that way, but it's possible that the author made an overly idealized character without putting himself into that role. It is also possible to write a self-insert while making that character one with flaws.

A mary sue character is a character who warps the plot around itself. The idea of 'being perfect' doesn't actually come from the character being perfectly ideal or extraordinarily powerful, just perfect to solve every problem the plot has without the proper justification for it. A good example is Bella Swan. Everyone in the story loves her and she is the main reason that anything even happens. And this would be fine, if there was a real reason for it, but there isn't. I don't know why all the other characters are so obsessed with her. She just exists and therefore is the center of the universe. Any conflict in the novel stems from her existing and how people react to her, but we have no reason to think that she is anything besides a particularly dull teenage girl.
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All of that describes Kvothe pretty well.
 
Bolt Vanderhuge said:
214633903_phBdu-XL-2.jpg
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Oh I never wrote the suit. I wanted it to be a piece of serious fiction. This was a matter of life and death, a survival horror set on a spaceship where Samus was more at war with her own fears than the Metroids themselves. The suit would have been cheesy.

Then again, if I realized in 1991 that she was going to be wearing tight blue spandex under the suit, I think my pre-pubescent self might have popped a few ball hairs and went for the sexy robot time.
 
WanderingWind said:
He's immediately awesome at everything. It's pretty well-documented at this point.
http://cboye.wordpress.com/2011/06/30/kvothe-a-mary-sue-case-study/

Is just one site with a break down. The books can be enjoyed regardless, but as for the trope, he fits exactly, in every way.
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I read up through the narcissistic part before I stopped. That is one of the worst analysis' (well, part of one) that I've ever read. Everything mentioned in it is either taken in the wrong context (Kvothe was making a joke about how to begin a story when he says "i am the center of creation"), incorrect (Wilhelm and Simmon ARE important, though more so in the next book, and Kvothe shows his value of them in the few ways he can, since he's too dirt poor to do much else), or just self contradicting (He has no flaws! Now look how he casually threatens people and is an arrogant git, what an asshole.)
 
Valhelm said:
Actually, Bella Swan isn't a Mary Sue. By defintion, a Mary Sue is good at everything, sometimes to an absurd degree. Twilight's heroine excels at nothing other than being remarkably bland.
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Exactly like the author.

Which fits the definition.
 
Emerson said:
All of that describes Kvothe pretty well.
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Kvothe justifies himself pretty well. Prodigies exist in the real world and the main thing that he has going for him is his extremely sharp memory. And the things Kvothe does are usually explained in detail and solved using established mechanics within the story.

Not to mention it's clear that people have things going on that don't concern Kvothe.
 
Veelk said:
Kvothe justifies himself pretty well. Prodigies exist in the real world and the main thing that he has going for him is his extremely sharp memory. And the things Kvothe does are usually explained in detail and solved using established mechanics within the story.
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It really doesn't matter if the story justifies it. It's bad writing either way, and it makes for a horribly uninteresting character.

I don't want to read about a character who's good at literally everything except for the fact that he's an arrogant asshole. The only potential that story has is to flip the character on his head and show him how much of a shithead he actually is. But the story shows no signs that it's going that way. It just seems to be about how great he is.
 
Veelk said:
I read up through the narcissistic part before I stopped. That is one of the worst analysis' (well, part of one) that I've ever read. Everything mentioned in it is either taken in the wrong context (Kvothe was making a joke about how to begin a story when he says "i am the center of creation"), incorrect (Wilhelm and Simmon ARE important, though more so in the next book, and Kvothe shows his value of them in the few ways he can, since he's too dirt poor to do much else), or just self contradicting (He has no flaws! Now look how he casually threatens people and is an arrogant git, what an asshole.)
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Yeah, you probably ought to have kept reading, if that's what you took from it. It's just a sample on one of many, many people detailing his Mary Sue-ness. There are more. I'm finding it hard to believe that anybody that understands the trope doesn't see Kvothe as a card-carrying member of it. It's not an attack on a book you love. It's just a fact of his nature. The books can still be enjoyed.
 
Emerson said:
It really doesn't matter if the story justifies it. It's bad writing either way, and it makes for a horribly uninteresting character.

I don't want to read about a character who's good at literally everything except for the fact that he's an arrogant asshole. The only potential that story has is to flip the character on his head and show him how much of a shithead he actually is. But the story shows no signs that it's going that way. It just seems to be about how great he is.
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No, that's how you determine good writing, if it's justified. After the justification, if you don't like it, it's usually a matter of preference rather than bad writing.

And apparently you haven't read a lot of it. Elodin constantly makes fun of him, the other teachers are impressed but also look down on his arrogance, the Adem nearly kill him for his arrogance and inability to understand Lethani, etc. Not to mention his other flaws, like his impatience and recklessness are the main reasons he has the problems he has in the first place. Ambrose may be a jackass, for example, but if Kvothe just had waited a day before going into the library and letting the drug wear off, he would have never gotten banned from it in the first place.

There are plenty of examples of Kvothe fucking up.
WanderingWind said:
Yeah, you probably ought to have kept reading, if that's what you took from it. It's just a sample on one of many, many people detailing his Mary Sue-ness. There are more. I'm finding it hard to believe that anybody that understands the trope doesn't see Kvothe as a card-carrying member of it. It's not an attack on a book you love. It's just a fact of his nature. The books can still be enjoyed.
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I understand that. But what I'm pointing out is that he isn't a mary sue, he's a prodigy. He's very good at stuff, yes, and that is often the mark of a mary sue, but not it's defining quality. Kvothe's flaws and other dimensions establish him as a fully realized character and that exempts him from being a mary sue.

I don't even like the books THAT much (I'm far more obessed about ASoIaF), but calling him a mary sue is inaccurate.
 
I remember watching Twilight for the first time (Back then I didn't know it was a book, I actually thought it would be a cool Vampire movie... ha..ha :( )

I was so annoyed by Bella. New girl in town, yet somehow the whole class swarm around her, she has millions of friends in no-time, is populair, has two hot dudes after her.

I had no idea this had a name untill now.
 
Veelk said:
No, that's how you determine good writing, if it's justified.
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No, it's really not. You can justify anything in a story. That doesn't make it make sense, and it certainly doesn't make it good writing.

Saying Kvothe has a reason for having learned every skill on earth doesn't make it any more realistic or interesting.
 
Htown said:
Also the Resident Evil movies were lucky to get Paul W.S. Anderson.

We all know exactly who the alternative was, and as much as Anderson makes dumb and bad movies, it could be worse.

Also, in b4 salty Doctor Who fans talking about River Song.
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Yep, that Resident Evil CGI movie was terrible.
 
Emerson said:
No, it's really not. You can justify anything in a story. That doesn't make it make sense, and it certainly doesn't make it good writing.

Saying Kvothe has a reason for having learned every skill on earth doesn't make it any more realistic or interesting.
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You can, yes, that's why any topic can be well written. But writers often don't, which make the writing bad.

And you should look up real life prodigies if you think it's unrealistic. As for interesting, that's purely subjective. It's nigh impossible to get me interested in a military story, but that doesn't make the writing bad.
 
Veelk said:
And you should look up real life prodigies if you think it's unrealistic. As for interesting, that's purely subjective. It's nigh impossible to get me interested in a military story, but that doesn't make the writing bad.
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Please provide me an example of somebody who had as many skills as Kvothe does. 'Prodigy' does not mean somebody has every skill on earth. It generally means they excel in a specific area.
 
Veelk said:
I understand that. But what I'm pointing out is that he isn't a mary sue, he's a prodigy. He's very good at stuff, yes, and that is often the mark of a mary sue, but not it's defining quality. Kvothe's flaws and other dimensions establish him as a fully realized character and that exempts him from being a mary sue.

I don't even like the books THAT much (I'm far more obessed about ASoIaF), but calling him a mary sue is inaccurate.
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No, it's not. It's entirely accurate. He's great at everything, immediately, and for no justification other than "well, he grew up an actor." He's a master of music, magic, fighting, womanizing, sewing, healing (self, mostly), immediately draws the attention of everybody around him for no reason other than he's the hero of the book we're reading, he consistently points out how he's always head of everybody, remains undefeated in realms where others have failed constantly (while doing so years ahead of other, non Mary Sues, natch), has mastered metallurgy and crafting, speaks 3 languages, etc, etc.

He's a Mary Sue. The narration of the books could mean that at the end, he ends up being a god reborn (the eyes thing hints at something) which would both enforce and deconstruct the trope. It could also end up being that he's lying about a lot of this stuff, as the writer of his own tale, so to speak. Oh, by the way, having the hero also "write" the story? Hello? There are a lot of ways this can end without him being a Mary Sue, but for now, he's practically the definition.
 
Joe Shlabotnik said:
That too. That was an unfortunate novel all around.
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I liked all the 80's stuff, and it started strong.

The problem in general is that the line between Luke Skywalker and Mary Sue is very very thin. Authors often try for the former and end up with the latter.

Neo in The Matrix is another good example.
 
Emerson said:
Please provide me an example of somebody who had as many skills as Kvothe does. 'Prodigy' does not mean somebody has every skill on earth. It generally means they excel in a specific area.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Ung-yong

Speaks several languages, composes poetry, does math like a motherfucker, and paints. And that was at age 5. Prodigies are not confined to a single area of expertise. They usually find one they like and decide to excel there, but that doesn't mean they are doomed to incompetence or average in other areas.

Kvothe would have probably done that, but he was taught by his first mentor to have a rounded education, so he does everything he finds interesting. And even then, he doesn't 'excel at everything'. He has no concept of how Alchemy works, he is terrible at math (though mostly because he finds it dull), and even after he learns super sex from fairies, Fela points out that he is incompetent at supporting a woman emotionally, leading her to say that he couldn't pay her to go out with him, when she had a massive crush on him for a good part of the series.


WanderingWind said:
No, it's not. It's entirely accurate. He's great at everything, immediately, and for no justification other than "well, he grew up an actor." He's a master of music, magic, fighting, womanizing, sewing, healing (self, mostly), immediately draws the attention of everybody around him for no reason other than he's the hero of the book we're reading, he consistently points out how he's always head of everybody, remains undefeated in realms where others have failed constantly (while doing so years ahead of other, non Mary Sues, natch), has mastered metallurgy and crafting, speaks 3 languages, etc, etc.

He's a Mary Sue. The narration of the books could mean that at the end, he ends up being a god reborn (the eyes thing hints at something) which would both enforce and deconstruct the trope. It could also end up being that he's lying about a lot of this stuff, as the writer of his own tale, so to speak. Oh, by the way, having the hero also "write" the story? Hello? There are a lot of ways this can end without him being a Mary Sue, but for now, he's practically the definition.
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Did you miss the part where he was tutored from an early age by someone from the University? Without him, he'd have just been good at the troupe stuff. Also, he's terrible at naming (Fela learned a name earlier than he did) and he is TERRIBLE with women in case you haven't noticed. And everyone in Adem kicked his ass in fighting, it's just that the adem fighting style is so good that a 10 year old girl can kick the ass of a grown man with it.

As for the unreliable narrator stuff, that's up in the air, but I doubt that kvothe is making it up. The entire point of it is to have as objective a recollection as possible. Anyway, the obvious deconstruction here is that for everything that he's good at, he failed at his life somehow. Hence he's wasting away in a random tavern and he apparently blames himself for it.
 
Ezalc said:
The fuck is this bullshit.
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She has no discernible flaws. Everyone fawns over her constantly. She ends up playing a key role in a prophecy that saves her people from destruction. Nasuicaa is textbook Mary Sue.

I'm not saying it's a bad film (though I consider it far from Miyazaki's best), but its lead character is pretty weak.
 
Veelk said:
Did you miss the part where he was tutored from an early age by someone from the University? Without him, he'd have just been good at the troupe stuff. Also, he's terrible at naming (Fela learned a name earlier than he did) and he is TERRIBLE with women in case you haven't noticed. And everyone in Adem kicked his ass in fighting, it's just that the adem fighting style is so good that a 10 year old girl can kick the ass of a grown man with it.

As for the unreliable narrator stuff, that's up in the air, but I doubt that kvothe is making it up. The entire point of it is to have as objective a recollection as possible.
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Yeah, he's bad at the stuff he hasn't tried. Another part of the trope. If he were to be interested in math, do you really have any doubt that he'd be awesome with it? And he's awesome at sex, but some girl said he'd make a terrible boyfriend. That doesn't change anything...lol. That definitely enforces it. But whatever. He is what he is, man. Enjoy the books or don't, but realize the trope for what it is.
 
WanderingWind said:
Yeah, he's bad at the stuff he hasn't tried. Another part of the trope. If he were to be interested in math, do you really have any doubt that he'd be awesome with it? And he's awesome at sex, but some girl said he'd make a terrible boyfriend. That doesn't change anything...lol. That definitely enforces it. But whatever. He is what he is, man. Enjoy the books or don't, but realize the trope for what it is.
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What are you talking about? He has had plenty of lovers, all of whom end up burned by him because he's not interested in a permanent relationship. This is what leads Fela to prompting that she does not want to be with him, not a theoretical hypothisis. With math, probably, but that anyone can easily get good at something they're interested in. And Alchemy it's not that he didn't just try it, he was completely ignorant of the subject entirely when it was right next to him. Everything he is good at has some justification with in the story. And did you miss naming, which fucking Fela got right before he did (he still hasn't actually gotten it iirc, while she did it in the middle of book 2 and she started pursuing it way later than he did).

I wish you'd take your own advice about recognizing things for what they are. Prodigy, not mary sue.
 
WanderingWind said:
No, it's not. It's entirely accurate. He's great at everything, immediately, and for no justification other than "well, he grew up an actor." He's a master of music, magic, fighting, womanizing, sewing, healing (self, mostly), immediately draws the attention of everybody around him for no reason other than he's the hero of the book we're reading, he consistently points out how he's always head of everybody, remains undefeated in realms where others have failed constantly (while doing so years ahead of other, non Mary Sues, natch), has mastered metallurgy and crafting, speaks 3 languages, etc, etc.

He's a Mary Sue. The narration of the books could mean that at the end, he ends up being a god reborn (the eyes thing hints at something) which would both enforce and deconstruct the trope. It could also end up being that he's lying about a lot of this stuff, as the writer of his own tale, so to speak. Oh, by the way, having the hero also "write" the story? Hello? There are a lot of ways this can end without him being a Mary Sue, but for now, he's practically the definition.
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This is what I'm banking on and hoping for. It would be really interesting.
 
Veelk said:
What are you talking about? He has had plenty of lovers, all of whom end up burned by him because he's not interested in a permanent relationship. This is what leads Fela to prompting that she does not want to be with him, not a theoretical hypothisis. With math, probably, but that anyone can easily get good at something they're interested in. And Alchemy it's not that he didn't just try it, he was completely ignorant of the subject entirely when it was right next to him. Everything he is good at has some justification with in the story. And did you miss naming, which fucking Fela got right before he did (he still hasn't actually gotten it iirc, while she did it in the middle of book 2 and way later after he started).

I wish you'd take your own advice about recognizing things for what they are. Prodigy, not mary sue.
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Prodigy does not mean good at everything, man. Kvothe is about 5-6 prodigies rolled into one. And he's a thinly-veiled writer insert. Mary Sue, bottom line. But whatever. I called this in my first post. Rothfuss has some pretty ardent defenders, which is silly. I like the books just fine. Tropes correctly recognized don't affect the quality - everything has an attached trope.


The Technomancer said:
This is what I'm banking on and hoping for. It would be really interesting.
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A lot more interesting than where I think it's going, where he's just setting a trap. Time will tell...
 
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