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[Slayven]

I wouldn't mind hyper mode if it wasn't so damn ugly.

It was like "holy shit we need an ultimate mode design" and they glued random shit to the design.

 

[The Technomancer]

*sniff* I thought I was the only one. I thought I was the only one!

Also, am I the first person in this thread to bring up Firefly's River Tam? Not only is she super smart and super athletic, but she's emotionally damaged! And she can read minds! And she's the most bad ass fighter in the universe! And she looks so pretty and carefree as she dances around in her flowy dress!

Sorry, Whedon fans, but River's as Mary Sue as they come.

I'm not sure if she's a Mary Sue in the sense that the author or even a significant part of the fans wish they could be her. I think she's a different character type that drives me absolutely nuts (and includes early River Song from Doctor Who, and early aspects of Matt Smith's version of the character), the character designed to make a certain segment of fans go "OMG they are so awesome!1!"

 

[Veelk]

*sniff* I thought I was the only one. I thought I was the only one!

Also, am I the first person in this thread to bring up Firefly's River Tam? Not only is she super smart and super athletic, but she's emotionally damaged! And she can read minds! And she's the most bad ass fighter in the universe! And she looks so pretty and carefree as she dances around in her flowy dress!

Sorry, Whedon fans, but River's as Mary Sue as they come.

I officially have no idea what other people mean when they say mary sue if 'emotionally damaged' counts as a trait for them.

 

[Verdre]

Kvothe is very likely a Mary Sue on purpose. Rothfuss is sort of spoofing/satirizing heroic/epic fantasy with his books.

Anyway, I was listening to Beagle answer a question on the panel, he said something along the lines of, "I'd never want to write The Last Unicorn again. It was excruciatingly hard, because I was writing a faerie tale while at the same time writing a spoof of a faerie tale."
I just sat there thunderstruck. I realized that's exactly what I had been doing for over a decade with my story. I was writing heroic fantasy, while at the same time I was satirizing heroic fantasy.

Of course, he doesn't do it half as well as Beagle, but he's trying.

 

[The Technomancer]

I officially have no idea what other people mean when they say mary sue if 'emotionally damaged' counts as a trait for them.

Oh there are a certain segment of people (most of them probably in high-school) for whom that might be true for.

Kvothe is very likely a Mary Sue on purpose. Rothfuss is sort of spoofing/satirizing heroic/epic fantasy with his books.



Of course, he doesn't do it half as well as Beagle, but he's trying.

If Kvothe really is lying like the second book implies then it might all be good it in the end.

 

[EatinOlives]

Wait, so what exactly IS a Mary Sue? I see people saying Mary Sues can have flaws so long as they're there so readers/the author can project themselves into the story, then there are others saying they're meant to be perfect people who unrealistically have no flaws. These two definitions contradict each other.

 

[WanderingWind]

I'm not sure if she's a Mary Sue in the sense that the author or even a significant part of the fans wish they could be her. I think she's a different character type that drives me absolutely nuts (and includes early River Song from Doctor Who, and early aspects of Matt Smith's version of the character), the character designed to make a certain segment of fans go "OMG they are so awesome!1!"

It's a different thing altogether. A Mary Sue is a character that either the author or the reader is totally wanting to be because he's so awesome at everything and everybody loves him. River is more the damaged goods girlfriend that lonely nerds dream about saving so they totally fall in love with them. Also, she knows karate.

 

[Veelk]

Oh there are a certain segment of people (most of them probably in high-school) for whom that might be true for.

Hm...I think what your getting at is the 'flaws that aren't really flaws' thing. I talked about it before regarding Bella and her clumsiness. That can be a legitimate flaw, but her clumsiness never negatively affects the plot, so it doesn't really matter. I don't think that's the case with River Tam though, her emotional disturbance puts the whole crew at risk a few times, so it is a legitimate flaw.

 

[spindashing]

Ichigo Kurosaki, the John Cena of anime.

mysterio was worse, john cena atleast looked capable of competing with the super heavyweights.

That's only because a good amount of the bigger guys aren't the greatest of workers. I would say that Mysterio is more tolerable and put over more talent than Cena.

 

[Veelk]

Wait, so what exactly IS a Mary Sue? I see people saying Mary Sues can have flaws so long as they're there so readers/the author can project themselves into the story, then there are others saying they're meant to be perfect people who unrealistically have no flaws. These two definitions contradict each other.

I define it as a character that is idealistically suited to the plot of the story without a justification for being so. Even if a character is flawed in some ways (bella's clumsiness), if the clumsiness doesn't play a part in the story, it's not a real flaw then. It may as well not be mentioned. And if a character does something in the story without enough of a justification, that is also a mary sue quality. Like how Bella's daughter stopped a war by asking both armies and they complied because.....um, I don't know, she was a cute little girl I guess.

You can have a very idealized character so long as he is justified. Or you can have an extremely flawed character be a mary sue if they're not.

 

[Verdre]

If Kvothe really is lying like the second book implies then it might all be good it in the end.

I don't think Kvothe is really lying. I think it's just a story about stories. Little grains of truth turning into legends that have barely anything to do with what really happened

 

[AlimNassor]

Asami's just rational. She realized Korra wasn't doing anything to upset her relationship, that it was just mako, so there is no reason to blame her. Like I said, one of the reasons that Asami is the best character in Korra.

And his exact line was "You are the most loyal, brave, and selfless person I've ever met."

Brave is arguably true, though I'd say it was more recklessness than anything else. But she is the most loyal and selfless person he's ever met? Why? What has Korra ever done to sacrifice herself for or remained loyal under duress? And that's an especially ridiculous thing to say when Asami is the one who gave up a wealthly lifestyle and is fighting against her father, whom she deeply loves, for the sake of doing the right thing.

Asami is the main character. She's the only mature one. Korra is a bipolar lady-child, and Mako is a boring bore that has less personality then a pile of wood.

 

[Leeness]

Another thing with Sues is that, if the author thinks they're too perfect, they'll start heaping misery on them in an attempt to make them "deep".

But it never really does anything to them, and the actual ramifications of whatever happens to them is poorly researched/written.

 

[KittenMaster]

Oh, I just thought of a great example: The entire Gundam SEED cast as they appear in Gundam SEED Destiny.

What was supposed to be the main character actually lost main character status because of this.

 

[Clegg]

Oh there are a certain segment of people (most of them probably in high-school) for whom that might be true for.



If Kvothe really is lying like the second book implies then it might all be good it in the end.

Its been a while since a read Wise Mans Fear.

What was Kvothe supposedly lying about.

 

[BlackGoku03]

Ian Malcolm in the Jurassic Park novel is pretty bad. He really isn't in the movies or in the Lost World novel, but in the first book, he exists pretty much solely to give Crichton a mouth piece through which to speak and talk down on the viewpoints of Hammond, Wu, and Arnold, and in the end he was always right and dies a martyr (second novel reveals he wasn't actually dead, but that was the intention at the time), his only noteworthy character flaws being arrogance (except he has every reason to be considering he's always right) and has very slight shades of being a womanizer (not anywhere near as apparent in the film).

The second novel, for all its flaws, was right in introducing Thorne and Sarah as reasonable and intelligent people to disagree with him.

It's funny. I just read that book again. I'm 26 now and I first read it when I was 14. I could now clearly see he was Michael's mouth piece. I'm reading Sphere right now.

 

[The Technomancer]

Its been a while since a read Wise Mans Fear.

What was Kvothe supposedly lying about.

Spoiler

His satyr (whatever) friend hires some bandits to try and rob him, in hopes that Kvothe will fight back and rediscover the side of himself that longs for action. But when they fight Kvothe doesn't just lose, he gets absolutely destroyed. It makes it seem unlikely that he was ever as good a fighter as he says he is.

That's the one that stood out to me anyway. Combine that with his incredibly bent for theatricality and some comments I think Rothfuss made at one point and I think the idea that Kvothe is seriously exaggerating some parts of his story is plausible.

 

[Veelk]

Spoiler

His satyr (whatever) friend hires some bandits to try and rob him, in hopes that Kvothe will fight back and rediscover the side of himself that longs for action. But when they fight Kvothe doesn't just lose, he gets absolutely destroyed. It makes it seem unlikely that he was ever as good a fighter as he says he is.

That's the one that stood out to me anyway.

Fighting doesn't work there like it does in the real world.

Spoiler

The adherence to the Lethani is what determines the better fighter in Adem, not physical strength. That's why the 10 year old girl routinely kicked his ass.

People speculate that Kvothe hid his name within the trice locked chest, and if that's the case, it's likely that's where his fighting ability lies as well.

The only unreliable narrator I detected is that he makes all his women beautiful, but I think he does that without meaning to. Denna, for example, was pointed out to be average looking by Bast (though with perfect ears...whatever that means). Kvothe saw her as perfect, despite her flaws.

 

[Charoncaori]

She has no discernible flaws. Everyone fawns over her constantly. She ends up playing a key role in a prophecy that saves her people from destruction. Nasuicaa is textbook Mary Sue.

I'm not saying it's a bad film (though I consider it far from Miyazaki's best), but its lead character is pretty weak.

The part where she goes berserk and kills a bunch of dudes. The fact that she has little regard for her own life and keeps nearly killing herself to save others. The part where she is secretly endangering the whole town with her poison plant basement. The part in her past where she was harboring an insect.

I haven't read the comics either, but she is straightforward, honest and kind TO A FAULT to absolutely everyone in the movie, which is why people are drawn to her and like her. She is also a princess. Her magic power to talk to bugs is the only remotely out-there power she has, but it's really just an innate ability to empathize with things.

The fact that everything works out for her is maybe poor writing, but she has plenty of shit things happen to her just because she's too goddamn nice. Not a Mary Sue.

 

[tokkun]

Kvothe is very likely a Mary Sue on purpose. Rothfuss is sort of spoofing/satirizing heroic/epic fantasy with his books.

If Kvothe really is lying like the second book implies then it might all be good it in the end.

I don't think so. I've seen Rothfuss speak a couple times, and never got that impressions from him.

When asked about the inspiration for the book he has said that he was inspired by Casanova's memoirs and wanted to write a fantasy book that captured the same essence.

 

[Clegg]

Spoiler

His satyr (whatever) friend hires some bandits to try and rob him, in hopes that Kvothe will fight back and rediscover the side of himself that longs for action. But when they fight Kvothe doesn't just lose, he gets absolutely destroyed. It makes it seem unlikely that he was ever as good a fighter as he says he is.

That's the one that stood out to me anyway. Combine that with his incredibly bent for theatricality and some comments I think Rothfuss made at one point and I think the idea that Kvothe is seriously exaggerating some parts of his story is plausible.

I always thought that Kvothe threw the fight on purpose.

At the end of the book he's seen practicing his fighting style

There, behind the tightly shuttered windows, he lifted his hands like a dancer, shifted his weight, and slowly took one single perfect step.

I also agree with the lockbox theory.

 

[FO-totality]

also

 

[Vulcano's assistant]

Yeah, its on purpose and there's not much else to the character, but Belldandy is also the very end of the spectrum when it comes to Mary Sues, so I think it's worth mentioning.

 

[Alfarif]

The most amazing part is they felt the need to add a Mary Sue character to a series of movies based off a video game franchise that already has some skirting the line....

I don't know if you know it, but one of those games has a guy punching the shit out of a boulder and succeeding. I think they crossed that line about mid-way through the first game.

 

[Mr. B Natural]

The part where she goes berserk and kills a bunch of dudes. The fact that she has little regard for her own life and keeps nearly killing herself to save others. The part where she is secretly endangering the whole town with her poison plant basement. The part in her past where she was harboring an insect.

I haven't read the comics either, but she is straightforward, honest and kind TO A FAULT to absolutely everyone in the movie, which is why people are drawn to her and like her. She is also a princess. Her magic power to talk to bugs is the only remotely out-there power she has, but it's really just an innate ability to empathize with things.

The fact that everything works out for her is maybe poor writing, but she has plenty of shit things happen to her just because she's too goddamn nice. Not a Mary Sue.

Being kind to a fault does not take her off the Mary Sue list. It does the exact opposite. She's the ideal kind, the perfect, flawless, unrealistic kind that doesn't waiver and doesn't exist in reality. And, as you said, she has magic powers, is a princess and...yeah. C'mon man.

 

[BertramCooper]

The part where she goes berserk and kills a bunch of dudes. The fact that she has little regard for her own life and keeps nearly killing herself to save others. The part where she is secretly endangering the whole town with her poison plant basement. The part in her past where she was harboring an insect.

I haven't read the comics either, but she is straightforward, honest and kind TO A FAULT to absolutely everyone in the movie, which is why people are drawn to her and like her. She is also a princess. Her magic power to talk to bugs is the only remotely out-there power she has, but it's really just an innate ability to empathize with things.

The fact that everything works out for her is maybe poor writing, but she has plenty of shit things happen to her just because she's too goddamn nice. Not a Mary Sue.

But that's the thing - almost all of her supposed flaws aren't really flaws. She cares too much. She's too loyal. She's too thoughtful and sensitive. If those are flaws, they're really lame ones.

Thankfully, Miyazaki's protagonists got infinitely better in his later films. Nausicaa seems especially poor by comparison.

 

[The Take Out Bandit]

I need this one explained to me.

Especially considering it's theorized Superman was born out of the loss of Jerry Siegel's father.

 

[Charoncaori]

Being kind to a fault does not take her off the Mary Sue list. It does the exact opposite. She's the ideal kind, the perfect, flawless, unrealistic kind that doesn't waiver and doesn't exist in reality. And, as you said, she has magic powers, is a princess and...yeah. C'mon man.

She doesn't have magic powers! She's just the only person in the movie who bothers trying to talk to them. She's fucking crazy and gets called out on it throughout the movie. Her people love her because she's a princess.

Being kind to a fault is a FLAW. that's what fault means. She endangers her own life and the lives of those around her because of her own ideals. It doesn't matter if she's right or not, it's a fault.

Spoiler

If she were a Mary Sue she would have been able to convince those guys at the end of the movie to help her without holding a machine gun to their heads, and she wouldn't have gone on a killing spree when her father died. And she wouldn't have gotten bitten and shot.

 

[Gamer @ Heart]

Spoiler

His satyr (whatever) friend hires some bandits to try and rob him, in hopes that Kvothe will fight back and rediscover the side of himself that longs for action. But when they fight Kvothe doesn't just lose, he gets absolutely destroyed. It makes it seem unlikely that he was ever as good a fighter as he says he is.

That's the one that stood out to me anyway. Combine that with his incredibly bent for theatricality and some comments I think Rothfuss made at one point and I think the idea that Kvothe is seriously exaggerating some parts of his story is plausible.

I could have sworn he was still injured from killing the 'demons'. Not that he threw it.

 

[Charoncaori]

But that's the thing - almost all of her supposed flaws aren't really flaws. She cares too much. She's too loyal. She's too thoughtful and sensitive. If those are flaws, they're really lame ones.

Thankfully, Miyazaki's protagonists got infinitely better in his later films. Nausicaa seems especially poor by comparison.

Her traits don't just come out of nowhere, though, she's living in a very cooperative, pacifistic society in a post-apocalyptic world where the value of life is constantly on people's minds. Her character traits make more sense in a world like that. Her whole town is made up of a bunch of crazy pacifists surrounded by warmongers,not just her! She's not out of place in that world. If she were say, Arjuna and can magically see things others can't then you'd have a better point. Nausicaa just pays better attention.

I would have liked to see her anger be explored more, but that's where Mononoke came from, I suppose.

 

[mu cephei]

I could have sworn he was still injured from killing the 'demons'. Not that he threw it.

No, I'm really convinced he threw it:

Spoiler

At the beginning of the fight he was doing well, then he suddenly starts losing. I think he doesn't want his friend to keep his hopes up that Kvothe is going to suddenly 'come back' or whatever he's after. He wants his friend to finally believe Kvothe is past it, and give up.

Anyway. Richard Rahl from Sword of Truth is one of the worst Mary Sues.

 

[Vaporak]

I honestly don't see how anyone could not see Kvothe as a Mary Sue character.

She's exotically beautiful, often having an unusual hair or eye color, and has a similarly cool and exotic name. She's exceptionally talented in an implausibly wide variety of areas, and may possess skills that are rare or nonexistent in the canon setting. She also lacks any realistic, or at least story-relevant, character flaws — either that or her "flaws" are obviously meant to be endearing.
She has an unusual and dramatic Back Story. The canon protagonists are all overwhelmed with admiration for her beauty, wit, courage and other virtues, and are quick to adopt her as one of their True Companions, even characters who are usually antisocial and untrusting; if any character doesn't love her, that character gets an extremely unsympathetic portrayal.

That almost describes Kvothe to a T. To make it even more obvious the story is told to us by Kvothe himself, again playing up the whole authorial self insert angle. It's pretty obvious to me that the author is doing it on purpose. I initially thought it was for the purpose of subverting it later, and thought that would end up being the "surprise twist" at the end of the second book. When it didn't come I just sighed and resigned myself to the fact that the series just has a Mary Sue protagonist after all.

 

[WanderingWind]

I honestly don't see how anyone could not see Kvothe as a Mary Sue character.



That almost describes Kvothe to a T. To make it even more obvious the story is told to us by Kvothe himself, again playing up the whole authorial self insert angle. It's pretty obvious to me that the author is doing it on purpose. I initially thought it was for the purpose of subverting it later, and thought that would end up being the "surprise twist" at the end of the second book. When it didn't come I just sighed and resigned myself to the fact that the series just has a Mary Sue protagonist after all.

He's basically the checklist example of the trope. People get offended at the descriptor, even when it's apt, when they really shouldn't. You can still write great stories about Supermen. It just takes talent...and Rothfuss is extremely talented.

 

[Beth Cyra]

Not a movie, but an anime.

Gen Fudo - Genesis of Aquarion. Honestly this might be the single worst use of this ever.

 

[Xero]

Have those saying River Tam seen the tv show? She most definitely is not a mary sue. She goes badass for 3 scenes throughout the tv series and the movie. The rest of the time she is absolutely crazy, to the detriment of the crew.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LittleMissBadass would be more accurate but not totally.

 

[Htown]

John Cena is the culmination of numeral years of pandering to a whole country of people's jingoistic ideals, while burying any good competition, cleanly, and always coming out on top, unless he's "unfairly" beaten. It's silly how much of a Mary Sue this dude is.

Yo FUUUUUUUCK John Cena.

He's fucking terrible. He wins JUST BECAUSE. Like, in his latest match his opponent hit him with literally two "finishers" and ALSO THE ROCK'S FINISHER FOR NO REASON and the dude just got up like nah.

 

[GrandHarrier]

Latest book spoilers,

Spoiler

he's dead now, and the peasants rejoice.

Holy shit. I almost thought about buying it and reading it before I realized I could wiki it.

This. So this.

It didn't bother me as much in Ender's Game, since he's developing the whole way through there and it has some justifiable conflict, but when the conscious personification of the internet fell madly in love with him apropos of nothing between Ender's Game and Speaker for the Dead, I knew something had gone horribly wrong.

Ender is perfect at everything and everyone loves him always all the time. Fuck Ender.

I don't know. Ender didn't seem to bother as much as most. I mean, in the later books he is still God Mode Detective, but he ends up needing the help of pretty much the rest of the series cast to do much of anything.

 

[CorvoSol]

Kvothe.

I have to disagree. Young Kvothe absolutely is a Mary Sue and everything goes his way. The guy sexes up the fairy queen and when he leaves he pulls out super magic to scare her. Yes, Young Kvothe is one, however enjoyable.

Old Kvothe makes it all bearable by being a broken man whose life of adventure and wonder has ended in him being little more than a shell and shadow of who he was. Inevitably he'll get out of the funk, but Old Kvothe still makes it all bearable.

His stupid assistant is the worst character, though. He's the one I can't stand.

That said, I want to say that Doctor Who is probably the best example. He's nigh immortal, has had a hand in every major moment of human history and the universe itself, can outwit creatures he thought mythical moments ago, and, well, is essentially Lord of Time. He's above the bad cases because he also is very human, makes mistakes frequently, has no weapon, and tends to play well off his supporting cast.


The worst example I can think of is THE ENTIRETY OF ERAGON. It was to the point where I quit the series because I kept saying to myself "I could write this."

Also: Prince Gwydion: The Chronicles of Prydain The entire point of his character is to BE the perfect shining paragon that Taran will aspire to be, but he's still a white-haired pretty boy with a magic sword who knows the true name of the Horned King, outsexies the magically sexy Queen Achren and is a total boss for the majority of the story.

Goodness knows what would happen if you put Prince Gwydion and Princess Daenerys together.

 

[Zolf]

 

[DrForester]

Yeah, its on purpose and there's not much else to the character, but Belldandy is also the very end of the spectrum when it comes to Mary Sues, so I think it's worth mentioning.

But she's so adorable!

 

[Clegg]

Old Kvothe is 25 at most.

/pedant.

 

[CorvoSol]

Old Kvothe is 25 at most.

/pedant.

Really? I retract my comments, then. I thought he was older than that. Nevermind. He's a Mary Sue. A very well done one, but yeah.

 

[Clegg]

Really? I retract my comments, then. I thought he was older than that. Nevermind. He's a Mary Sue. A very well done one, but yeah.

I actually agree with what you posted.

The current Kvothe is a shadow of what he used to be.

I was exaggerating when I said 25. In the books , Chronicler notes that the years melt off Kvothes face when he smiles. Its also said that he looks older than his actual age. I'd say he's definitely between 25-30.

 

[FO-totality]

L is Boss Mode Mary Sue and doesn't give a fuck.

Near is 1000x more Mary Sue than L, and that's saying something.

 

[CorvoSol]

I actually agree with what you posted.

The current Kvothe is a shadow of what he used to be.

I was exaggerating when I said 25. In the books , Chronicler notes that the years melt off Kvothes face when he smiles. Its also said that he looks older than his actual age. I'd say he's definitely between 25-30.

Either way, though, I think Rothfuss knows what kind of character Kvothe is, and that it's part of the point. Stories don't normally start with the hero being a legend who washed up.

I'm kinda sick of Denna, though. He shoulda stuck with Felurian.

 

[Jarmel]

There are some really really bad picks in this thread.

 

[Clegg]

Either way, though, I think Rothfuss knows what kind of character Kvothe is, and that it's part of the point. Stories don't normally start with the hero being a legend who washed up.

I'm kinda sick of Denna, though. He shoulda stuck with Felurian.

The Felurian part of Wise Mans Fear was the worst portion of the book. The only redeeming bit was the Cthaeh tree.

The only thing interesting about Denna is the mystery of who her patron really is. I just want the next book to have more focus on the Chandrian and the Amyr.

 

[Ikael]

Bolded: No, he isn't. Seriously, how do people not notice this when they read? Girls like him, yeah, but he is a complete tit and doesn't know how to handle it. Fela was standing in front of him, naked except for her bedsheet, inviting him in, and he said "No, I have books to read".

See what I mean? Mary Sue's defects are endearing, and / or aspirational. Jesus, just read the situation that you just described. It is the same with every single defect that he has: he gets hated for belonging to a minority that just happens to be super special and misunderstood. He has problems with women because they all seem to fall too quickly for him. He gets the enemity of poweful people because they are all envious of how much more awesome he is, note how noone has any ounce of a legitimate reason to hate him or dislike him. Oh, wait, he is bad at math because it is a far too boring subject for such a creative guy. And so on.

That being said, this is not bad per se: this is the very first novel with a Mary Sue-ish main charcter that I enjoy, and I do not even like Superman, so to speak. Also, the contrast between old (present - day) Kvothe and the young (narration) Kvothe makes him much more believable (and bearable).

 

[Escape Goat]

You are either insane or live in a parallel universe.

As crappy as the movies may be, the RE film franchise owns everything to Milla.

How? Its not like shes acting. Anyone could do what she did.

 

[To Far Away Times]

I don't like Alice's character in the Resident Evil movies, but I do think it's telling that when Paul W.S. Anderson got back into directing the series, he had her shitty super powers removed within the first 10 minutes of the movie.

Supposedly she was brought into the first movie so that the audience would think that it's possible for a main character to be in danger of being killed, but these days, she's just as invincible as all the Capcom characters.