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[Hunahan]

This is getting OT, but:

'Persecuted' is a strong word, but such thinking should be discouraged and should not be protected simply because it's religious teaching. Throughout history so much inhumanity and barbarity has been defended and or encouraged on religious grounds, and in hindsight no one thinks "well, that was OK because it was their religious beliefs, and that should be respected".

I for one am not going to appease certain fundamentally unacceptable point of views just because they're based in religion, any more than I accept the shit we see coming out of the middle east as a result of religious stupidity (yes: stupidity) there.

You're blurring lines between thought and action.

The statement was made as a direct reply to Stumpokapow's assertion of what others should and should not think

You are free to disagree with others and their points of view or belief. You are free to think they are stupid, incorrect, evil, or damned.

But no. You cannot tell them what to believe in the name of tolerance. That is a hypocritical position that undermines your very cause.

One of my favorite authors is George Orwell. If you haven't had the opportunity, you might want to check out a book called "Animal Farm" that he wrote.

The subject and analogy were specifically written as a critique of communism, but it applies to such a broader set of circumstances.

After a while, the pigs look more and more like men.

At one time, those Christians that you so quickly dismiss were being nailed to crosses for their beliefs. The persecuted become the persecutors. It's an endless cycle of haves and have-nots.

I read your reply and I see vast and gross stereotyping, generalization, implication, and disregarding. At some point you have to decide whether you are fighting for an example or a concept. If you truly want to live in a world about tolerance, individuality, and freedom, then you have to start with yourself.

 

[Boss Man]

I lol'd. Once at the idea of people wanting to be gay-married in a Star Wars MMO, and once again at the community manager being a homophobe.

One of my favorite authors is George Orwell. If you haven't had the opportunity, you might want to check out a book called "Animal Farm" that he wrote.

Your point is invalid because there are no pigs in Star Wars.

 

[TheExodu5]

Ahahahahaha. You couldn't make this shit up. Why are you assuming anything about the sexuality of someone you don't even know? Isn't that kind of creepy? And don't speak for me when you talk about "the only time anyone ever assumes anyone is gay;" there's pretty much never a time to assume anything about someone's sexual preferences unless they feel like having a discussion about it.

If you ever get out of your heteronormative world, you'll find that the gender and sexual binaries you were taught are fictional.

So before asking a girl out, do you always open with "are you a lesbian"?

 

[Metal Gear?!]

If you give them lightsabers, sure.

You're... not disagreeing here

Well....not to get involved, but in that quote, you are sort of counteracting what you perceive to be intolerance and telling other people how to think and/or act by being intolerant and telling other people how to think and/or act.

I wouldn't have used the words "stupid," but I certainly would use the word "hypocritical."

After all, many religious groups of the world set up belief systems that constitute homosexuality as a sin. To deny people the right to believe in that is to commit religious persecution and/or discrimination.

It's a tricky issue.

If you feel that things should be a certain way, or have personal beliefs, that's fine. But to tell other people what they "should" or can't believe in is always the start of a problem....you got to be careful, lest you become the very beast that you attempt to slay.

....just something to consider.



Either way, this whole thing is ridiculous.
Probably just some dumbass moderator flexing his tiny muscles when he shouldn't be.

You're blurring lines between thought and action.

The statement was made as a direct reply to Stumpokapow's assertion of what others should and should not think

You are free to disagree with others and their points of view or belief. You are free to think they are stupid, incorrect, evil, or damned.

But no. You cannot tell them what to believe in the name of tolerance. That is a hypocritical position that undermines your very cause.

One of my favorite authors is George Orwell. If you haven't had the opportunity, you might want to check out a book called "Animal Farm" that he wrote.

The subject and analogy were specifically written as a critique of communism, but it applies to such a broader set of circumstances.

After a while, the pigs look more and more like men.

At one time, those Christians that you so quickly dismiss were being nailed to crosses for their beliefs. The persecuted become the persecutors. It's an endless cycle of haves and have-nots.

I read your reply and I see vast and gross stereotyping, generalization, implication, and disregarding. At some point you have to decide whether you are fighting for an example or a concept. If you truly want to live in a world about tolerance, individuality, and freedom, then you have to start with yourself.

Hello Mr. Strawman. No one is saying people can't believe things. People are saying that no one should be actively prevented from discussing them, especially by the same developer who created one of the first gay characters in Star Wars history. And of course people are making fun of stupid and intolerant beliefs for being such, but no one is actually preventing people from holding such beliefs. Do you understand the difference?

 

[Merguson]

relgion sux

There's one thing I'm so curious about. People hate religion yet support more rights for homosexuality. Isn't the whole thing about equality? Allowing people to be free of discrimination from their age, race, religion, sex etc.?

This post isn't really directed at you, but more to the people who hate religion and want more rights for homosexuality. I mean, do you enjoy the thought of being a hypocrite?

 

[Stumpokapow]

But no. You cannot tell them what to believe in the name of tolerance. That is a hypocritical position that undermines your very cause.

All civil rights movements in history have been designed to suppress the intolerant through law and through social justice. Your stance is that Martin Luther King was a hypocrite who undermined his own cause.

One of my favorite authors is George Orwell. If you haven't had the opportunity, you might want to check out a book called "Animal Farm" that he wrote.

I have a first print of the book and this is an unsupported comparison.

The key difference is that the suppression of opposition in Animal Farm and elsewhere was entirely myopic, narcissistic, and self-interested. Like what actual dictators do. Wielding power to effect change in a coherent and logically motivated way is different.

You are advocating political solipsism.

At one time, those Christians that you so quickly dismiss were being nailed to crosses for their beliefs. The persecuted become the persecutors. It's an endless cycle of haves and have-nots.

This is an even worse criticism.

Christians were nailed to crosses because of who they were. This is something those of us who want tolerance for gays are fighting to avoid.

I do not have a problem with punishing people when their beliefs harm others, as is in the case of an individual, religious or not, who says his beliefs inform him that he must discriminate. I do not mean "punish" in the legal sense--I mean punish in terms of socially disincentivizing racism and hatred.

At some point you have to decide whether you are fighting for an example or a concept.

Both. As an example, gays ought to be able to live free of discrimination because they do not harm others. As a concept, all people ought to be able to live free of discrimination insofar as they do not harm others while living freely.

If you truly want to live in a world about tolerance, individuality, and freedom, then you have to start with yourself.

Your premise is predicated on Martin Luther King being an intolerant reverse racist, so I'm not sure the history of emancipatory struggle for minorities supports your claim.

 

[Huggy]

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Juhani#Romance

I find that picture of Han Solo to be rather apt.

 

[Gaborn]

Opinions are opinions are opinions though, Gaborn. As much as I'm cool with you being gay, I know some people who wouldn't be - while I know many more who are. It's a difficult issue because the more one side promotes its views, the more space it takes from the other side - which, in turn, feels its values and views are just as worthwhile and deserving.

I won't call religious teachings stupid anymore than I'll call you being gay a sin.

I'm not objecting to their opinion, my problem is their hypocrisy. The syllogism looks something like this: I am religious ---> homosexuality is against my religion -----> I'm taught that homosexuality is a choice and because of this homosexuals don't protections for their "lifestyle"

now, do you see the flaw here? the first point is fine, as is the second. Where I have an issue is the third point. You can't pick and choose only choices you like to give special protections to. In the US we've got a long tradition of allowing freedom of thought and freedom of expression, and part of that, we're more and more coming to realize includes the right to express intimacies in public. I've got no problem with religion, I have a problem with people using religious values as a reason to discriminate, your chosen belief system doesn't give you the right to tell other people they aren't entitled to equal treatment.

 

[usernamechange]

Did anyone notice that the thread on the Star Wars forum was re- opened and the words gay, lesbian and homosexual are no longer blocked? Does anyone remember that that's why this thread was made in the first place?

 

[Hootie]

This isn't newsworthy. And by the looks of it, the thread isn't going anywhere good.

 

[Stumpokapow]

There's one thing I'm so curious about. People hate religion yet support more rights for homosexuality. Isn't the whole thing about equality? Allowing people to be free of discrimination from their age, race, religion, sex etc.? This post isn't really directed at you, but more to the people who hate religion and want more rights for homosexuality. I mean, do you enjoy the thought of being a hypocrite?

People ought to be free from discrimination insofar as they do not harm others.

A Jew being a Jew does not harm anyone. A Muslim being a Muslim does not harm anyone. A black man being a black man does not harm anyone. A gay woman being a gay woman does not harm anyone. A Christian being a Christian does not harm anyone. A guy who likes to collect bottlecaps does not harm anyone. A Muslim who wants to pray five times a day does not hurt anyone. A Christian who doesn't want to shop on sunday doesn't hurt anyone. A Buddhist who wants to practice Yoga does not hurt anyone. These are not harmful things. They deserve protection.

A racist being a racist does harm others insofar as he enacts his prejudices in everyday life. Ditto for someone who hates someone because they are Muslim. Ditto for someone who is Muslim and hates someone because they are not. Ditto for a company that is not willing to give benefits to a gay couple. Ditto to an Army that says "don't ask, don't tell". Ditto for a criminal who steals, or a drunk who hurls bottles. Ditto for a Christian who says the Bible tells them they must condemn their fellow man. Ditto for a Hindu who lobbies his city government to implement a rigid caste system because he feels it is supported by his religious.

Is it not obvious that we can separate between the benign expression of self and the harmful expression of self, and punish the latter?

Any examination of homosexuality that involves finding it to be harmful is laughable, and so it obviously falls into the former category.

 

[Speevy]

Did anyone notice that the thread on the Star Wars forum was re- opened and the words gay, lesbian and homosexual are no longer blocked? Does anyone remember that that's why this thread was made in the first place?

They've turned this into a topic that has nothing to do with video games, Bioware, or forums.

Let them have it.

 

[Metal Gear?!]

There's one thing I'm so curious about. People hate religion yet support more rights for homosexuality. Isn't the whole thing about equality? Allowing people to be free of discrimination from their age, race, religion, sex etc.?

This post isn't really directed at you, but more to the people who hate religion and want more rights for homosexuality. I mean, do you enjoy the thought of being a hypocrite?

There's a difference between calling certain beliefs stupid/unfounded/unfair/regressive and actively discriminating against people based on religious creed. Confounding the two is just another strawman.

If you think that some of the same people might be making snap judgements of all people of a religion or all religions then you would be correct in saying that they are probably as ignorant and bigoted as those they decry. Obviously this does not apply to everyone who simply calls a spade a spade however.

 

[woodypop]

So before asking a girl out, do you always open with "are you a lesbian"?

This reminds me of Lisa Kudrow's character in "P.S. I Love You", wherein she's at a party trying to find a guy to date and asks each of them if he's gay (among other things).

EDIT: for pronoun agreement

 

[Owzers]

This thread is probably an example of why Bioware locked those threads on their forum.

 

[ArchangelSylph]

Gosh! Where did this thread go? :-o

 

[The Librarian]

Wow.

 

[dark_chris]

Oh man this thread.. :lol :lol

 

[Amibguous Cad]

This is very odd given Bioware's past.

Doesn't Juhani prove them otherwise?

 

[SnakeswithLasers]

Personally, I don't like Star Wars zealots because they're fucking creepy weirdos. But I respect their rights and think that they should allowed to be married just like everyone else. But I wouldn't want my daughter to bring one home for dinner.

 

[gofreak]

You're blurring lines between thought and action.

The statement was made as a direct reply to Stumpokapow's assertion of what others should and should not think

You are free to disagree with others and their points of view or belief. You are free to think they are stupid, incorrect, evil, or damned.

But no. You cannot tell them what to believe in the name of tolerance. That is a hypocritical position that undermines your very cause.

People can believe what they want.

What I'm saying is that marking a belief as 'religious' does not and should not place it beyond challenge. It should not afford such beliefs protection from challenge or disagreement or mocking or..whatever. Simple as that. I will not leave beliefs like that unchallenged.

At one time, those Christians that you so quickly dismiss were being nailed to crosses for their beliefs. The persecuted become the persecutors. It's an endless cycle of haves and have-nots.

I read your reply and I see vast and gross stereotyping, generalization, implication, and disregarding. At some point you have to decide whether you are fighting for an example or a concept. If you truly want to live in a world about tolerance, individuality, and freedom, then you have to start with yourself.

I really do not see what you're getting at. I don't wish to persecute anyone, but I in kind will not let someone else persecute me because they believe it's their god given right.

It's an insidious and massive abuse of the word 'persecution' and those who really are persecuted to say that people who hate or who hate gay people are persecuted by those who challenge them. Hatred should not have the protection of your words. If you wanna say that standing up to hate and people who hate is persecuting hate, then sure, call me a persecuter. I make no apology for doing that though, and I think you're very misguided if you equate the acceptance of something like homosexuality with the acceptance of discriminatory or hateful beliefs about homosexuality. This new trend of considering challenge to anti-gay belief or teaching as 'persecution' in kind is horribly, and IMO, knowingly misguided and is a knowing attempt to simply undermine those who would campaign against discrimination. But I think most people can see through that.

This is really OT though. On topic, like I said earlier, if Bioware are shutting down conversations because of, well..this.. ^^ rather than because their game isn't accomodating same-sex romance or relationships, then it's quite understandable!

 

[Timber]

This post isn't really directed at you, but more to the people who hate religion and want more rights for homosexuality. I mean, do you enjoy the thought of being a hypocrite?

oh come on :lol

 

[Odrion]

I'm not objecting to their opinion, my problem is their hypocrisy. The syllogism looks something like this: I am religious ---> homosexuality is against my religion -----> I'm taught that homosexuality is a choice and because of this homosexuals don't protections for their "lifestyle"

now, do you see the flaw here?

yeah

don't protections

 

[Speevy]

You're breaking my heart...

You're going down a path I can't follow!

 

[Calcaneus]

Did anyone notice that the thread on the Star Wars forum was re- opened and the words gay, lesbian and homosexual are no longer blocked? Does anyone remember that that's why this thread was made in the first place?

Really? Awesome, I guess.

 

[sullytao]

I personally believe this doesnt go further than the forum moderators. Bioware is known to be open when it comes to sexuality in there games and franchises. As people have already noted there was a scene in KOTOR that referenced homosexuality. There is mention of a character in the novel Mass Effect: Ascension that is to believed to be gay and everyone knows about the lesbian scene in the game itself.

I'm confident that should there be a relationship feature in there upcoming MMO they will accommodate to both straight and gay people.

 

[Vinci]

In the US we've got a long tradition of allowing freedom of thought and freedom of expression, and part of that, we're more and more coming to realize includes the right to express intimacies in public. I've got no problem with religion, I have a problem with people using religious values as a reason to discriminate, your chosen belief system doesn't give you the right to tell other people they aren't entitled to equal treatment.

And I agree with that. What I'm saying is that it's a difficult line to stay on one side of. Many religious leaders perceive any acceptance as an attack, an affront against the views of what they imagine to be a majority of the people. To vehemently attack religious doctrine does nothing more than to promote the behavior minorities are most arguing against. It's a balance between speaking your mind and pissing in someone's face - which, understand, your homosexuality is doing in some small amount from their perspective even by you simply declaring it.

And that sucks. I wish it weren't so. I will always oppose that. It's sad that so many religious people misunderstand the role of their religion or their role as a person of faith. I'm an atheist myself, but I've seen it being done in a way that I would consider 'right' and in ways I could deem 'wrong,' simply by the outcomes.

An example: My aunt is exceedingly liberal. My grandmother, until her death, was a strong conservative and the most religious person I have ever known. My aunt, thinking it would be funny to screw with my grandmother, brought her friend (a homosexual friend) to Christmas dinner. She introduced him to my grandmother by saying, "Hey, Clara. This is Brent, my friend. Oh, he's gay." My grandmother didn't miss a beat - just took him by the hand, as she did with everyone (family, friend, or stranger) and led him to the food table to help fix his meal. She spoke of him warmly from that day on, even talked with him over the phone, and never once made mention of him being gay or how wrong it was.

To me, that's the way both sides should be. But how they 'should be' and how they are, sadly, are two very different things.

[Sorry for boring everyone with that little story; this discussion simply reminded me of it.]

 

[Red Blaster]

There's one thing I'm so curious about. People hate religion yet support more rights for homosexuality. Isn't the whole thing about equality? Allowing people to be free of discrimination from their age, race, religion, sex etc.?

This post isn't really directed at you, but more to the people who hate religion and want more rights for homosexuality. I mean, do you enjoy the thought of being a hypocrite?

are you serious




is he serious

 

[Odrion]

too late a bunch of people already attacked that post

also are there actually gay jedis i thought they were all asexual or something

 

[Prime crotch]

Can't we all just have a gay laugh and move on?

 

[Speevy]

*This* particular forum (Neogaf) is very open to debating the merits of Christianity, while having a zero tolerance policy for intolerance towards gays.

And I think a number of homosexual users see religion as one of the primary obstacles they must overcome to see equality in their lifetime.

Neither of these things has anything to do with Star Wars, but it falls in line with what we're currently discussing, so whatever.

 

[Vinci]

too late a bunch of people already attacked that post

also are there actually gay jedis i thought they were all asexual or something

I always imagined they were meant to be like nuns or something. Not that it matters in the context of a MMO.

 

[Merguson]

oh come on :lol

Isn't the whole thing about equality? If not, what is it about then?

 

[gofreak]

*This* particular forum (Neogaf) is very open to debating the merits of Christianity, while having a zero tolerance policy for intolerance towards gays.

And I think a number of homosexual users see religion as one of the primary obstacles they must overcome to see equality in their lifetime.

Neither of these things has anything to do with Star Wars, but it falls in line with what we're currently discussing, so whatever.

Ufff...

There is a massive difference between sexuality and religion. There is nothing to debate about the rights or wrongs of adult sexuality vs the rights and wrongs of various religious teaching. Sexuality is an innate human characteristic, religious beliefs are beliefs we adopt or that are enforced on us inherently without proof (that are faith-based). You can't remotely compare treatment of both.

Secondly, I don't think any gay users on this board want to discriminate against people of religious belief, remove rights from them. But the opposite is not always true, and often not true, unfortunately.

 

[Orlics]

I still have yet to hear a sound argument as to why being gay is wrong.

Spoiler

fanning the flames a lil'

 

[RyanDG]

Your point is invalid because there are no pigs in Star Wars.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UROBXT7AgE

:lol

 

[TheExodu5]

This is very odd given Bioware's past.

Doesn't Juhani prove them otherwise?

Not really, considering it was a bug and was removed through a patch.

 

[Odrion]

.

 

[Timber]

Isn't the whole thing about equality? If not, what is it about then?

you know of many gay rights supporters who want to deny or take away rights from religious people?

 

[Undubbed]

Isn't the whole thing about equality? If not, what is it about then?

I don't see very many atheists/gays trying to hinder any religious person's rights through legislation...

 

[Odrion]

you know of many gay rights supporters who want to deny or take away rights from religious people?

well yeah, they want to take away their right to persecute gay people

 

[EmCeeGramr]

uh guys if gay marriage is legal then we'll all be forced to get gay married that's what i heard

 

[Aegus]

Can we expect incest in Star Wars? There's been precedent!

 

[Gaborn]

And I agree with that. What I'm saying is that it's a difficult line to stay on one side of. Many religious leaders perceive any acceptance as an attack, an affront against the views of what they imagine to be a majority of the people. To vehemently attack religious doctrine does nothing more than to promote the behavior minorities are most arguing against. It's a balance between speaking your mind and pissing in someone's face - which, understand, your homosexuality is doing in some small amount from their perspective even by you simply declaring it.

And that sucks. I wish it weren't so. I will always oppose that. It's sad that so many religious people misunderstand the role of their religion or their role as a person of faith. I'm an atheist myself, but I've seen it being done in a way that I would consider 'right' and in ways I could deem 'wrong,' simply by the outcomes.

Sure, the fact I'm a happy gay man is going to make some people uncomfortable, but frankly, people don't have to be comfortable with it, any more than they have to like 2 people living together or an interracial couple kissing or any other group that makes some people uncomfortable. People have the right to live as they choose, and as long as they're not bothering me I'm not going to make any judgments about them.

An example: My aunt is exceedingly liberal. My grandmother, until her death, was a strong conservative and the most religious person I have ever known. My aunt, thinking it would be funny to screw with my grandmother, brought her friend (a homosexual friend) to Christmas dinner. She introduced him to my grandmother by saying, "Hey, Clara. This is Brent, my friend. Oh, he's gay." My grandmother didn't miss a beat - just took him by the hand, as she did with everyone (family, friend, or stranger) and led him to the food table to help fix his meal. She spoke of him warmly from that day on, even talked with him over the phone, and never once made mention of him being gay or how wrong it was.

To me, that's the way both sides should be. But how they 'should be' and how they are, sadly, are two very different things.

[Sorry for boring everyone with that little story; this discussion simply reminded me of it.]

That's a great story about your grandma, she's much closer to the conservative christian's I've known than the popular portrayal in the media.

The Exodu5 - the bug was that she was only supposed to be with female characters romantically and pre-patch you could be with her as a male character.

 

[Boss Man]

Sexuality is an innate human characteristic, religious beliefs are beliefs we adopt or that are enforced on us inherently without proof (that are faith-based). You can't remotely compare treatment of both.

Religion isn't? Both have also been around since man has. I'd even say that religious belief is a lot more natural than homosexuality. Regardless, tolerance should go both ways. If religious people hate homosexuals for being homosexual, and homosexuals hate religious people for being religious, then we're not going to get anywhere. Double standards are the most aggravating things to pop out of modern culture.

The fight should be between tolerance and intolerance. Not "stupid" people and "gross" people. That's just everyone falling into the same trap.

 

[gofreak]

you know of many gay rights supporters who want to deny or take away rights from religious people?

Gay tolerance: "you live as you wish, let us live as we wish. And please government, furnish our relationships with the same rights and services as every other"

Religious tolerance: "you will live as we wish. Not only if you subsribe to our religion, but lord knows, we'll lobby every other institution to ENSURE you live as we wish. If you don't want to live as we wish, you're shit out of options. Oh, and if you complain about it, we'll cry religious persecution."

 

[EmCeeGramr]

Religion isn't? Both have also been around since man has. I'd even say that religious belief is a lot more natural than homosexuality.

 

[Gaborn]

Religion isn't? Both have also been around since man has. I'd even say that religious belief is a lot more natural than homosexuality. Regardless, tolerance should go both ways. If religious people hate homosexuals for being homosexual, and homosexuals hate religious people for being religious, then we're not going to get anywhere. Double standards are the most aggravating things to pop out of modern culture.

Homosexuality is repeatedly documented as occurring in nature. Do you have any evidence to suggest that religion occurs outside of humanity?

 

[Foxtastical]

So gay.

I'll just say I can't believe threads were actually closed about this.

 

[Undubbed]

Religion isn't? Both have also been around since man has.

lol sexuality didn't exist til humans arrived? News to me :/