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[Velcro Fly]

I'm not sure we'll ever see a 2D platformer with a difficulty curve and level tuning like SMB3/SMW again. It's a lot of what makes those games so good.

I think the difficult platformer and the focus on set pieces and an ever evolving level are more important these days than running and jumping in the correct spots to avoid death. Sometimes that makes levels/games more unforgiving I suppose.

 

[120v]

i was thinking this the other day playing Volgarr... even thought it really isn't the type of game... it'd be nice to have more retro style platformers that gave you a little more breathing room. whereas the newer games mainly put you in a killbox, you recognize the patterns, master it, move on and repeat

but honestly, i'm so glad these games are back, i don't really care too much

 

[Adam Prime]

OP is a baby. Did DKC Tropical Freeze make you cry? THATS A MANS GAME.

 

[Solid SOAP]

But what's wrong with dying?

Nothing, there's a place for games like this. I just miss the nonlinear level design of platforming classics like SMB3 and Sonic 1-3.

OP is a baby. Did DKC Tropical Freeze make you cry? THATS A MANS GAME.

I ain't no baby! I beat every level of DKCR on hard mode, beat Champion's Road in SM3DW and SM3DL, am about to beat Shovel Knight on hard mode with no checkpoints, beat Dark Souls, beat Cave Story on hard mode (Which essentially means 1-2 hits = death), and many more difficult games. I'm no scrub! I'd just like to see some more platformers that have more appeal than just being hard.

 

[lt519]

I'm not sure we'll ever see a 2D platformer with a difficulty curve and level tuning like SMB3/SMW again. It's a lot of what makes those games so good.

I think the difficult platformer and the focus on set pieces and an ever evolving level are more important these days than running and jumping in the correct spots to avoid death. Sometimes that makes levels/games more unforgiving I suppose.

There was a great thread here on how Shovel Knight was great at teaching players the skills they needed in the progressively harder levels. Much like most Nintendo games.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=850652

 

[SmokedMeat]

I'm not sure about those platformers, but there seems to be this desire of making retro style games punishingly difficult. I'm enjoying Rogue Legacy, but you'll enter areas where your ass will be handed to you immediately.

Or even sequels to games like Shinobi or Contra that are far more difficult and unforgiving than the originals. I don't understand why developers choose to do this.

 

[Haunted]

NO

 

[Opinionatedfish]

I came in here to post Kirby.. but so many people already beat me to it. O_O

That said, I think that there's a good balance of platform action titles out there that it's not too difficult to find titles with a little more lenience on difficulty.

I liked both Mighty Switch Force titles, Gunman Clive 1 & 2 aren't too difficult, Steamworld Dig is a great explore-em-up platforming. Have you let Shantae into your life yet? The first one is the most difficult, but the two sequels are quite forgiving.

There's a few decent side scrollers if you're okay with movie or show licensed properties on the 3DS. I actually had a lot of fun with that first Adventure Time game on the 3DS and I found that Epic Mickey: Power of Illusion to be pretty playable, although the touch screen aspects were irritating.

Track down a copy of Monster Tale, it's darn good. Also, the newer Rayman games are lots of fun.

There's a pretty decent puzzle platformer with zero difficulty out there called Fez. I like that one. Pretty much.. well.. do you own a New 3DS and/or a Vita? Do you like platformers?

You should really own both of those.. there are more excellent platform titles out there for them every day...

Well.. that's about it.. I mean, there are a lot of great platformers out there that aren't "super hard."

 

[Miguel81]

I love them. Maybe I'm a masochist. Currently playing through Squirreltopia on hard and it's breaking me, but these games at least let you try as many times as you want. Just rinse and repeat.

 

[OnPoint]

OP is wrong about shovel knight. But it is a crowded genre

 

[fargofallout]

My point is more about the level design than it is about the pacing/live system. Levels in SMB3, like I said earlier, often have many different ways of completing them depending upon your skill level. I fell into water the other day in a water level but I was able to hop across each fish by jumping on their heads one-by-one. In something like Shovel Knight I likely would have just fell into a pit and died. Again, it has less to do with the game being "too hard" or it being a problem with the game itself and more to do with the fact that I'd like to see more "open" styles of platformers similar to the 2D Mario games.

Re: bolded part: ok, that's fine, but the title of your thread is "There are too many "ultra hard" platformers today." Maybe your thread title should have addressed level design as opposed to difficulty? Also, I'll echo someone else's sentiment - see Spelunky for a very open-ended type of platformer.

 

[pupcoffee]

But what's wrong with dying?

That part of the level does a lot more than just ease punishment. It makes the level more interesting. It offers players options.

Not that other great platformers don't offer options, it's just that they offer different ones. Mario is designed around jumping, so wider jumping courses are designed for it, whereas say Mega Man is designed around your range of shooting. Enemy patterns and positions form that game's options. Players basically feel the need to choose the least risky way to get an enemy within shooting range. They find a way to get in front of the enemy that feels correct. A lot of enemies in Mega Man can be killed before they even pose a direct threat. Players can either achieve that or put themselves in a more awkward situation where they will probably get damaged, and this is of course an "option," due to the health bar.

 

[Opinionatedfish]

That part of the level does a lot more than just ease punishment. It makes the level more interesting. It offers players options.

Not that other great platformers don't offer options, it's just that they offer different ones. Mario is designed around jumping, so wider jumping courses are designed for it, whereas say Mega Man is designed around your range of shooting. Enemy patterns and positions form that game's options. Players basically feel the need to choose the least risky way to get an enemy within shooting range. They find a way to get in front of the enemy that feels correct. A lot of enemies in Mega Man can be killed before they even pose a direct threat. Players can either achieve that or put themselves in a more awkward situation where they will probably get damaged, and this is of course an "option," due to the health bar.

That bolded part is why I love Mutant Mudds and look forward to Super Challenge.

 

[Adam Prime]

I ain't no baby! I beat every level of DKCR on hard mode, beat Champion's Road in SM3DW and SM3DL, am about to beat Shovel Knight on hard mode with no checkpoints, beat Dark Souls, beat Cave Story on hard mode (Which essentially means 1-2 hits = death), and many more difficult games. I'm no scrub! I'd just like to see some more platformers that have more appeal than just being hard.

Okay, you're more of a man than me.

DKCTF is killing me on Hard Mode. I'm spending 30 minutes on every level!

 

[Solid SOAP]

Unfortunately I don't have a Wii U so I haven't played much of Tropical Freeze. I liked what I played of it though.

 

[TGO]

I just spat out my drink reading the thread title, seriously today's games are easy,2D games are even easier

 

[Timeaisis]

Shovel Knight isn't "ultra hard", but I do agree it is "hard". Way harder than SMB3 or SMW, in my mind. Probably because it has a lot of cheap deaths.

But I do agree, OP. I like being challenged in platformers, but not constantly aggravated. Tropical Freeze had a excellent balance, in my opinion.

 

[MadSexual]

Part of the appeal of the ultra hard platformers is for people like my friend who plays Super Mario World with the controller upside down so that it's still a challenge.

I agree that people need games that welcome them to a genre, but they also need games that let them exercise their skill, and many of us have been playing Mario-tier for a very long time.

 

[antennaehead]

I feel you OP.
Modern platformers tends to overuse "make one mistake and start from the beginning/checkpoint" mechanic. While there is nothing wrong with it, I would also prefer a more casual platformer which allows you to make mistakes (it's fine to punish the player for making a mistake, just don't force him to replay this segment for 100 time).
Kirby Triple Deluxe was great in that way.

 

[TheSpaceBetween]

SMBoy and 1001 Spikes are the exceptions. Those are by far the two hardest platformers I've ever played. Shovel Knight isn't even close to being in the same category as those two, nor are they Rayman, Donkey Kong, and 2D Mario games.

 

[jhmtehgamr20xx]

None of the games you mentioned are truly "ultra hard" though. Especially Super Meat Boy, aka "it's okay if you die because you can start again at the start of this 10-second mini level!".

Not knocking the games, just saying the repercussions for dying aren't really there in a literal sense.

 

[Mikeside]

I think the real thing we're missing is a buttload of 3d platformers.

I want a bunch of Mario 64 inspired games on my tablet, my PS4 and on my PC, please.


Decent, polished, original ones, that is.

Can't WAIT for A Hat in Time.

 

[Shmuppers]

Excluding Nintendo, it's not like the genre is getting THAT much attention outside of the indie scene, if your concern is that its distracting devs from making other types of games.

I personally don't really mind it.

 

[Mostmanlyman]

I think that super meat boy and 1001 spikes are fine I like that type of challenge. Yet I think i want to be the guy or I want to be the boshy are just insane. And only made to be crazy hard for the reason of trolling and be crazy hard and random.

 

[Raptomex]

I really wouldn't consider Shovel Knight an ultra hard platformer, it's actually pretty forgiving.

Yeah, just thinking this myself. But Super Meat Boy and 1001 Spikes are definitely hard.

 

[InfiniteCombo]

OP, even to this day Nintendo makes platformers that for your criteria of a progressive, scaled difficulty with multi-tiered levels. Super Mario 3D World and (to a lesser extent) New Super Mario Bros U are two examples.

Elsewhere, the new Rayman games also follow this paradigm (Legends more so than Origins; I remember the latter getting somewhat difficult in the later stages of trying to 100% the game).

I'm not fully convinced about many developers making lots of difficult platformers as a "protest against how easy other games are today." Plenty of games, even in the reviled AAA space, have adjustable difficulty settings.

 

[Mechanized]

I wouldn't mind there being more and more breezy kinda laid back platformers you can chill out and play. Games like SMB3 and Super Mario World. I don't think the super hard games/masocore genre needs less games though, and I don't think they're necessarily over-crowding the market when it comes to platformers.

 

[Archie]

May I suggest Wings of Vi, OP? It's a pretty forgiving platformer.

Spoiler

:^)

 

[Give War A Chance]

I would say that there are way more "not ultra hard" platformers than there are "ultra hard" platformers. I'm not sure what you're looking at, and I am also not sure I'd lump Shovel Knight in there. There are tons of simple platformers out there. The reason you're recognizing the harder ones is because they are the outliers. Also, because they're pretty dang good.

 

[UncleSporky]

SMBoy and 1001 Spikes are the exceptions. Those are by far the two hardest platformers I've ever played. Shovel Knight isn't even close to being in the same category as those two, nor are they Rayman, Donkey Kong, and 2D Mario games.

No there really are a lot of them coming out of the woodwork these days including Cloudberry Kingdom mentioned earlier...there was another one very similar to Cloudberry, can't remember what it was called.

I think I would include VVVVVV too, though I didn't find it as bad as some of the others.

Do we want to compile a list? Might be enlightening.

 

[Xane]

I agree with OP except mentioning Shovel Knight falling under it. I think Shovel Knight is a step into the right direction.
But yeah, I too would prefer having indie-games with actual gameplay feel and design like SMW or SMB3. Just plain fun.

 

[More_Badass]

My issue is that there aren't enough games that are in a middle ground. There are either retro-style platformers that are designed to be difficult and challenging or platformers designed less around offering a challenging experience and more about the art/story of the game. Neither of these are inherently bad but I just want more games that are a middle ground.

Teslagrad? Pid? The Swapper?
There's a lot of stuff in the middle ground, you just have to look

 

[mattp]

lol what? ultra hard?

 

[I Wanna Be The Guy]

I find SMB3 MUCH harder than any of the games you mentioned so I don't really get where you're coming from.

 

[mclem]

Shovel Knight was the perfect difficulty and the whole checkpoint system is so dope. You can use them, but i you don't you get more money. Genius.

Unfortunately, there's insufficient reason to get more money. Some sort of money-related reward at endgame (akin to Wario Land?) would make all the difference.

 

[Bravocado]

Yeah, I like a good moderately-difficult platformer, like SMW or Shovel Knight.

 

[I Wanna Be The Guy]

Yeah, just thinking this myself. But Super Meat Boy and 1001 Spikes are definitely hard.

Meat Boy hard? Perhaps. Compared to 8 bit Mario? Hell no. Honestly SMW is the only classic Mario that I find beatable.

 

[SystemUser]

This. I understand the others, but I never thought Shovel Knight was very difficult.

I have come to realize that often when someone says a game is difficult it just means that dying in the game is a possibility at all times. With most modern games there are long stretches of gameplay experience where it is virtually impossible to die or fail. In most 1980s games you were rarely more than 5 seconds away from death.


I mean using Shovel Knight as an example of an "ultra hard" game seems to further this. Shovel Knight is pretty forgiving. There is no fall damage. Your magic and you health a fully charged when you respawn after death. You have infinite lives and there are a good amount of checkpoints You can always grind easier areas for extra money if you want to max out your health and magic. Fairly early in the game you can get a invulnerability spell that allows you to not get knocked back for 3 three seconds or walk on instant death spikes. I doubt Shovel Knight would be in the top 100 hardest NES games. Shovel Knight feels like a much more forgiving Megaman game.


Shovel Knight is more linear in level design overall compared to SMB3, but SMB3 has World 8 which I think is more more difficult.

 

[ArjanN]

May I suggest Wings of Vi, OP? It's a pretty forgiving platformer.

Spoiler

:^)

I'm playing it now.

Bastard hard, but it is generally very fair. Amazing game.

 

[UncleSporky]

Meat Boy hard? Perhaps. Compared to 8 bit Mario? Hell no. Honestly SMW is the only classic Mario that I find beatable.

Super Meat Boy is way harder than any Mario game. It's infuriating, I play a level and die a couple times and just give up because it's simply annoyingly difficult.

Conversely I've beaten every Mario game and enjoyed them...except Lost Levels, Mario 2 Japan.

 

[Yoshi]

Not entirely true, even the first Super Mario Bros. had a continue option which would put you back at level *-1 (die in 4-3, start over in 4-1).

It was a hidden cheat not even explained in the manual. Do SMB2 and 3 have such an option, too? Playing normally, Game Over means Game Over.

 

[ArjanN]

Super Meat Boy is way harder than any Mario game. It's infuriating, I play a level and die a couple times and just give up because it's simply annoyingly difficult.

Conversely I've beaten every Mario game and enjoyed them...except Lost Levels, Mario 2 Japan.

Maybe he meant the original Meat Boy instead of Super Meat Boy?

Super Meat Boy starts out not that hard, especially given the super fast restart and how short most levels are, but eventually it ramps up to one of hardest platformers out there IMO. Although a lot of the most challenging stuff is pretty deep in there/optional stuff, like the dark world levels/bandages/warp zones etc.

 

[I Wanna Be The Guy]

Super Meat Boy is way harder than any Mario game. It's infuriating, I play a level and die a couple times and just give up because it's simply annoyingly difficult.

Conversely I've beaten every Mario game and enjoyed them...except Lost Levels, Mario 2 Japan.

Die in Super Meat Boy and you're set back 30 seconds max. Die 100 times in Super Meat Boy and you're set back exactly the same. Simple got to overcome each small challenge. Die a number of times in an 8 bit Mario and how far back are you set? It can be very far. Without a save system it's simply much more punishing than a game like Meat Boy.

 

[UncleSporky]

It was a hidden cheat not even explained in the manual. Do SMB2 and 3 have such an option, too? Playing normally, Game Over means Game Over.

IIRC SMB3 always lets you continue and start over from the beginning of the world.

Die in Super Meat Boy and you're set back 30 seconds max. Die 100 times in Super Meat Boy and you're set back exactly the same. Simple got to overcome each small challenge. Die a number of times in an 8 bit Mario and how far back are you set? It can be very far. Without a save system it's simply much more punishing than a game like Meat Boy.

Yeah, but the death system is irrelevant when you're talking about the overall difficulty of the game.

In other words I don't care about the punishment inherent in losing all my lives in Mario 1, when I can get to world 8 before there's even the slightest risk of that happening.

And the journey is overall more fun and relaxed.

 

[Shuggananas]

Super meat boy isn't ultra hard to just complete (ie light world only), it's pretty fair and the learning curve is good.
Now doing SMB 106% is extremely hard and soul crushing, yes.

Seems to me you need to git gud son.

 

[Damaniel]

I really wouldn't consider Shovel Knight an ultra hard platformer, it's actually pretty forgiving.

Agreed. I'm an old man (35) at this point, and I had no problem beating it.

Now, Super Meat Boy on the other hand? Fuck that game. It's *way* too hard for me.

 

[SmokedMeat]

OP is a baby. Did DKC Tropical Freeze make you cry? THATS A MANS GAME.

Tropical Freeze is no joke.

 

[Neiteio]

Shovel Knight is just the right amount of challenge and flexibility.

 

[I Wanna Be The Guy]

IIRC SMB3 always lets you continue and start over from the beginning of the world.



Yeah, but the death system is irrelevant when you're talking about the overall difficulty of the game.

In other words I don't care about the punishment inherent in losing all my lives in Mario 1, when I can get to world 8 before there's even the slightest risk of that happening.

And the journey is overall more fun and relaxed.

If you think most people can get anywhere close to world 8 in Mario 1 before they get a game over then you've got another thing coming. The only reason you can do that is because you've played the game so many times.

Journey being more fun is subjective. I had more fun with Super Meat Boy than any Mario game, and the pressure of the lives system combined with the high difficulty made the 8 bit Mario games anything but relaxing to me.

 

[TheMink]

I really wouldn't consider Shovel Knight an ultra hard platformer, it's actually pretty forgiving.

Esspecially if you used that phase ability