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[Dalibor68]

It's clearly economic anxiety, guys.

Being against uncontrolled mass migration from the poorest and most war-torn countries on this planet with many economic migrants thrown in and 75% of them being young males with different cultural understandings isn't racist. In this case the instrumentation of course is though.

 

[Lord Frieza]

I truly don't understand what is happening in the world. It feels like there is no hope left at all.

 

[Roberto Larcos]

Being against uncontrolled mass migration from the poorest and most war-torn countries on this planet with many economic migrants thrown in and 75% of them being young males with different cultural understandings isn't racist. In this case the instrumentation of course is though.

It was also total misinformation. The UK has an opt-out of provisions from TItle V of Part Three of the TFEU. The UK could never be compelled to take more refugees.

 

[sammex]

Right so whilst everyone has pointed out the tories are way up in the polls, there is an increase in dissatisfaction with Theresa May since she's been in power. People dissatisfied with May have almost doubled from 19% in August to 35% in December.

So there's a small glimmer of hope that people will become so dissatisfied with her that they won't vote conservative, however if things got really really bad she'd probably face a leadership challenge before the next election and someone equally nasty like Johnson would get in instead.


On the other hand, the real roadblock to getting rid of the tories is that the leader of the opposition is polling so badly that May looks favourable in comparison. She's going to really have to destroy the country with Brexit in order to make people think differently about a Corbyn-led Labour. His approval polling is getting steadily worse and is already the lowest for any opposition leader since WW2.

http://britainelects.com/polling/satisfaction/

 

[maquiladora]

Being against uncontrolled mass migration from the poorest and most war-torn countries on this planet with many economic migrants thrown in and 75% of them being young males with different cultural understandings isn't racist.

It's xenophobic at best.

And "uncontrolled mass migration" are classic right wing fear-mongering buzzwords detached from reality.

People from the "poorest and most war-torn countries on this planet" are surely the ones that deserve the most empathy and kindness from wealthy nations?

And what the fuck does "75% of them being young males" have to do with anything? Unless you buy into the right wing propaganda that they are not actually real migrants but instead some kind of secret terrorist army?

 

[Jackpot]

Being against uncontrolled mass migration from the poorest and most war-torn countries on this planet with many economic migrants thrown in and 75% of them being young males with different cultural understandings isn't racist. In this case the instrumentation of course is though.

It's not uncontrolled...

 

[sono]

Every time I read about something in UK politics I get confused; thinking is THAT really the issue they should be focusing on?

This.

 

[Calabi]

Dude. Come on.

Also from what I can see the tories are further ahead in every poll than last election
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election

Well polls are really accurate at the moment so we can totally rely on them to tell us where we're going.

 

[Interface_2037]

The UK could never be compelled to take more refugees.

Asylum seekers were not the issue, uncontrolled economic migration was, of which the UK currently has no power to stop from within the EU.

300,000+ (net) people a year is unsustainable, if you don't recognise or accept that, fine, nothing I can do to change your mind, but for the majority of people in the UK it is accepted that it can't go on.

Sorry if that goes against the utopian, 'we're all brothers' type thing you've got going on, but there it is.

 

[Greddleok]

Urgh, Labour better oust Corbyn soon for fuck's sake.

He's the only reason I'd vote Labour. Sick and tired of Labour being Tory-lite.

 

[Roberto Larcos]

Well polls are really accurate at the moment so we can totally rely on them to tell us where we're going.

Polling in the UK isn't unreliable enough to put it within the margin of error that Corbyn requires.

 

[Interface_2037]

He's the only reason I'd vote Labour. Sick and tired of Labour being Tory-lite.

Well that's why you are giving the Tories a free pass at the next election.

Whether you like it or not, the British people will never put a Labour party into power with an extreme left wing ideology and leadership.

You may not see it as extreme left wing, but the rest of the electorate does.

 

[Roberto Larcos]

Asylum seekers were not the issue, uncontrolled economic migration was, of which the UK currently has no power to stop from within the EU.

Use fucking facts, not rhetoric. There is very, very little data to support your assertion that EEA migration harms the UK at all - against an increasingly large body of evidence to the contrary.

Fuck you for peddling this racist bilge. You only seek to perpetuate myths and falsehoods.

 

[Maledict]

Asylum seekers were not the issue, uncontrolled economic migration was, of which the UK currently has no power to stop from within the EU.

300,000+ (net) people a year is unsustainable, if you don't recognise or accept that, fine, nothing I can do to change your mind, but for the majority of people in the UK it is accepted that it can't go on.

Sorry if that goes against the utopian, 'we're all brothers' type thing you've got going on, but there it is.

300,000 a year is the only reason the UK is expected to be the largest economy in Europe in the future. Every budget forecast the tories have done in the last few years relied on it. And the only reason its 300,000K a year is because the UKs economy was growing better than the rest of Europe. And note those people are coming here to *work* - they contribute more to the tax coffers than they take out. We are richer because they come here. Other countries would kill for large, skilled immigration like the UK gets.

The country is better off with those immigrants. The idea that we are "full up" is complete and utter gibberish unfounded in reality or fact. The fact that the areas of the country with highest levels of immigration voted to stay in the EU tells you everything you need to know.

In short, you are wrong. Stop reading the Daily Mail or the Telegraph. You should instead be asking the question - why isn't the government using the funding to provide better schools, hospitals and housing in areas of immigration?

 

[Garjon]

Well that's why you are giving the Tories a free pass at the next election.

Whether you like it or not, the British people will never put a Labour party into power with an extreme left wing ideology and leadership.

You may not see it as extreme left wing, but the rest of the electorate does.

Labour have no chance of winning 2020 no matter who their leader will be, especially after the post-Brexit fallout. They have just alienated too many voters from all sides of the debate and have leaked their trust all over the shop. Corbyn might've stood a chance if he got rid of people like Seumas Milne but it's probably too late. At the absolute best, May will alienate enough Tory voters over Brexit, the child abuse investigation fuckup and her general incompetence and we'll get a hung parliament.

 

[Joni]

Right so whilst everyone has pointed out the tories are way up in the polls, there is an increase in dissatisfaction with Theresa May since she's been in power. People dissatisfied with May have almost doubled from 19% in August to 35% in December. ]

The bad thing is that a leader only needs about 40% of the vote to have a full majority.

 

[norinrad]

If there is one thing about the ECHR that needs amending it's the fact that there are no exceptions for non-refoulement.

Art 3 EHCR: non-refoulement (meaning you can not deport criminals into their homecountry if they're under threat of torture/war/persecution) is absolute and has no exceptions

Art 33(1) Geneva Convention on Refugees: there are exceptions to non-refoulement, if the person poses a threat to public safety or was convicted of a serious crime you can deport

It's an absolute joke that european countries, who in the context of cultural differences have the biggest burden, have to tolerate and pay the prison stay of for example rapists or murderers from such countries etc while anyone else who's only bound by the GCR can deport them.



Leaving the ECHR != not supporting basic human rights. Inform yourself before you insult people to the extreme and make the broadest generalizations possible.

I had no idea Trump had an account on GAF

 

[Roberto Larcos]

May will alienate enough Tory voters over Brexit, the child abuse investigation fuckup and her general incompetence and we'll get a hung parliament.

Who's going to take the Conservative Party's seats? How are Labour going to prevent more of their seats turning blue?

 

[Interface_2037]

The fact that the areas of the country with highest levels of immigration voted to stay in the EU tells you everything you need to know.

Middle class, left wing inner city metropolitan types, are not the yardstick by which I measure things. It's those type of naive idiots that have put Jeremy Corbyn in charge of Labour.

In short, you are wrong.

No, In short, you lost the argument.

And shouting, screaming, insulting & throwing toys out of the pram because the vote went against you, combined with accusations of racism against anyone & everyone who dares to have a different view, is a very large part of the reason why you lost.

 

[Roberto Larcos]

No, In short, you lost the argument.

And shouting, screaming, insulting & throwing toys out of the pram because the vote went against you, combined with accusations of racism against anyone & everyone who dares to have a different view, is a very large part of the reason why you lost.

Why didn't the Brexiters pipe down for 30 years? We're a member of the EU, they lost, get over it.

Wait.

 

[autumnleaf]

Right so whilst everyone has pointed out the tories are way up in the polls, there is an increase in dissatisfaction with Theresa May since she's been in power. People dissatisfied with May have almost doubled from 19% in August to 35% in December.

I think most new Prime Ministers (elected or otherwise) have a honeymoon period with approval ratings, hers and the Tories will inevitably go down.

 

[Interface_2037]

Why didn't the Brexiters pipe down for 30 years? We're a member of the EU, they lost, get over it

Wait.

I don't recall those that lost the referendum in the 1970's resorting to court action to try and stop staying in the EU by the back door.

They accepted the decision and it took 40yrs to get another vote.

Nothing stopping those against leaving from doing the same, maybe in 20,30 or 40yrs time there will be another vote to rejoin.

 

[AHA-Lambda]

Being against uncontrolled mass migration from the poorest and most war-torn countries on this planet with many economic migrants thrown in and 75% of them being young males with different cultural understandings isn't racist. In this case the instrumentation of course is though.

Hmmm....

 

[autumnleaf]

I don't recall those that lost the referendum in the 1970's resorting to court action to try and stop staying in the EU by the back door.

They accepted the decision and it took 40yrs to get another vote.

Nothing stopping those against leaving from doing the same, maybe in 20,30 or 40yrs time there will be another vote to rejoin.

Well this vote was a lot closer than the one in the 70s, and that one went through the correct process which is what people want this one to follow.

 

[Shadowhelper]

Blair getting Labour back in power, fooled us into thinking we're a much more progressive and cooler country than we are in reality. The demographics are just all wrong, and so is the culture. The media culture has to be among the worst on the planet. It is sickening to see how racist and disgusting the mainstream media is in this country.

The negative, racist, spiteful, aspect of our culture, the cold miserable attitude. I do think the racist rightwing media is largely responsible for this. But until we address these instruments of hate and lies, a naive and stupid public will alway fall for their propaganda.

I just wish I had managed to leave the country, cuz I do not look forward to the looming economic collapse.

 

[Roberto Larcos]

I don't recall those that lost the referendum in the 1970's resorting to court action to try and stop staying in the EU by the back door.

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. At all.

They accepted the decision and it took 40yrs to get another vote.

Nigel Farage, James Goldsmith, Tony Benn, Richard Desmond. They had funny ways of 'accepting' the decision, didn't they? Patience of saints, that lot. Never heard a peep from them.

Nothing stopping those against leaving from doing the same, maybe in 20,30 or 40yrs time there will be another vote to rejoin.

I doubt it'll take that long in truth. And when the country's on its knees, the terms we get won't be favourable. Brexit could well be the thing that propels us towards a federalist future.

 

[Shadowhelper]

I don't recall those that lost the referendum in the 1970's resorting to court action to try and stop staying in the EU by the back door.

They accepted the decision and it took 40yrs to get another vote.

Nothing stopping those against leaving from doing the same, maybe in 20,30 or 40yrs time there will be another vote to rejoin.

LOL

What are you talking about? There has been constant fighting about leaving the EU for decades. If they could do it through the court they would.

Any sane person would hope the courts can prevent our economy from collapsing and from the Union from breaking up. Dunno how anyone can be so happy their country is becoming an international joke.

 

[AHA-Lambda]

Middle class, left wing inner city metropolitan types, are not the yardstick by which I measure things. It's those type of naive idiots that have put Jeremy Corbyn in charge of Labour.

Quite frankly, all you're telling me here is that those metropolitan elites are at least a hell of a lot more tolerant than your average pleb.
As well as this being a disregarding of facts. Post truth again?

And shouting, screaming, insulting & throwing toys out of the pram because the vote went against you, combined with accusations of racism against anyone & everyone who dares to have a different view, is a very large part of the reason why you lost.

Yes, as Leave winners have been so gracious and kind in their victory...

300,000+ (net) people a year is unsustainable, if you don't recognise or accept that, fine, nothing I can do to change your mind, but for the majority of people in the UK it is accepted that it can't go on.

Says who? Point out how that figure is unsustainable beyond the cries of little englanders?

don't recall those that lost the referendum in the 1970's resorting to court action to try and stop staying in the EU by the back door.

And what court action is there now trying to keep us in?
What's being done now is ensuring parliament has a say, we're still leaving.
I thought that's what you lot wanted? Democracy enacted from British courts

 

[Interface_2037]

LOL
What are you talking about? There has been constant fighting about leaving the EU for decades. If they could do it through the court they would.

No. All those that campaigned to leave the EU since the 70's referendum said that it should be put to the people in another referendum because the EU had changed from an economic union to an overtly political one in the intervening years.

Show me one example of someone in Parliament, Tory or Labour saying they will go to the courts to force the UK out of the EU.

Hint: Don't bother because you won't find one.

 

[Interface_2037]

Quite frankly, all you're telling me here is that those metropolitan elites are at least a hell of a lot more tolerant than your average pleb.

Sure, as long as they keep doing what they're told by the 'metropolitan elites'. Go against them and the result we see is the hate filled reaction since the vote.

The horror!, the plebs have had enough, who do they think they are.

 

[Dalibor68]

It's xenophobic at best.

And "uncontrolled mass migration" are classic right wing fear-mongering buzzwords detached from reality.

People from the "poorest and most war-torn countries on this planet" are surely the ones that deserve the most empathy and kindness from wealthy nations?

And what the fuck does "75% of them being young males" have to do with anything? Unless you buy into the right wing propaganda that they are not actually real migrants but instead some kind of secret terrorist army?

It's not detached from reality, it's what happened in continental europe in 2015. Unless you're telling me everybody was just imagining uncontrolled masses illegally crossing borders with powerless police watching them pass, blocking highways and train stations.

Yes, those that are actual refugees. Also surely the ones that require the most amount of vetting.

It is a very important factor that is very important as even minor shifts in gender demographics can have huge consequences and it also goes against the common media narrative of 99% of the time showing crying children and families last year.

Anyways I don't think this thread is meant as a refugee thread so maybe shall we let it be?

Hmmm....

What's "Hmmm" about it? Things like women equality or homosexual rights are completely different in countries like Afghanistan and there are even mandatory value countries in multiple european countries now.

 

[Roberto Larcos]

Show me one example of someone in Parliament, Tory or Labour saying they will go to the courts to force the UK out of the EU.

Tell me, what was the court case that you're referring to about?

 

[Maledict]

Middle class, left wing inner city metropolitan types, are not the yardstick by which I measure things. It's those type of naive idiots that have put Jeremy Corbyn in charge of Labour.

Those working class residents in some of the most deprived wards in Lambeth that voted massively to stay in the EU you mean? Or how BME residents voted massively in favour of staying in the EU? Or the fact that some of the wealthiest areas of the country that don't have immigration issues voted to leave? And why does the fact that the people who experience immigration the most might come from middle class backgrounds matter? The fact remains - the areas of the country with the highest overall levels of immigration are pro EU and pro immigration. The idea that it was just middle class left-wing elites is utter garbage.

(And if you think I support Jeremy Corbyn, go take a look at my post history. I am one of his harshest critics here!)

No, In short, you lost the argument.

And shouting, screaming, insulting & throwing toys out of the pram because the vote went against you, combined with accusations of racism against anyone & everyone who dares to have a different view, is a very large part of the reason why you lost.

Losing a vote doesn't change the facts on the ground. Reality doesn't change because a group of racists convinced a group of idiots to vote against their own best interests. If you voted because of immigration, then you are either a racist, or you are woefully misinformed and should go read up on some facts.

 

[Roberto Larcos]

It's not detached from reality, it's what happened in continental europe in 2015. Unless you're telling me everybody was just imagining uncontrolled masses illegally crossing borders with powerless police watching them pass, blocking highways and train stations.

Yes, those that are actual refugees. Also surely the ones that require the most amount of vetting.

It is a very important factor that is very important as even minor shifts in gender demographics can have huge consequences and it also goes against the common media narrative of 99% of the time showing crying children and families last year.

We have an opt-out from this section. The Brexit vote had the capacity to change absolutely nothing.

Seriously, brick walls

Spoiler

can be reasoned with more easily.

 

[Dalibor68]

We have an opt-out from this section. The Brexit vote had the capacity to change absolutely nothing.

Seriously, brick walls

Spoiler

can be reasoned with more easily.

My post was not specifically in regards to the UK (and neither was his, from what I can tell). Which is also why I added another sentence that we should probably drop that as it's kinda off-topic.

 

[Roberto Larcos]

My post was not in regards to the UK

That's convenient - it was earlier in the thread:

It's clearly economic anxiety, guys.

Being against uncontrolled mass migration from the poorest and most war-torn countries on this planet with many economic migrants thrown in and 75% of them being young males with different cultural understandings isn't racist. In this case the instrumentation of course is though.

 

[Interface_2037]

And what court action is there now trying to keep us in?
What's being done now is ensuring parliament has a say, we're still leaving.
I thought that's what you lot wanted? Democracy enacted from British courts

Bollocks.

We all know the agenda at play here with the court action, there is a desperate hope that some way, any way, will be found to block Brexit in Parliament from the elected representatives, trying to find a way, some technicality to ignore the result of a legally held referendum.

It may be unsaid, but that's what is playing out here.

It's a futile play, but I guess democracy demands you have to humour the attempt.

 

[autumnleaf]

some technicality to ignore the result of a legally held referendum.

*Advisory referendum

 

[Garjon]

Who's going to take the Conservative Party's seats? How are Labour going to prevent more of their seats turning blue?

That's not what I meant, my point is that turnout could be low that anything could happen. Though low turnouts tend to favour the Tories so it's probably still a Conservative win anyway.

 

[Roberto Larcos]

Bollocks.

We all know the agenda at play here with the court action, there is a desperate hope that some way, any way, will be found to block Brexit in Parliament from the elected representatives, trying to find a way, some technicality to ignore the result of a legally held referendum.

It may be unsaid, but that's what is playing out here.

It's a futile play, but I guess democracy demands you have to humour the attempt.

Are you a gymnast? The hoops you jump through...

 

[AHA-Lambda]

Bollocks.

We all know the agenda at play here with the court action, there is a desperate hope that some way, any way, will be found to block Brexit in Parliament from the elected representatives, trying to find a way, some technicality to ignore the result of a legally held referendum.

It may be unsaid, but that's what is playing out here.

It's a futile play, but I guess democracy demands you have to humour the attempt.

Right so you're basically putting your own insecurities and fears on this. Thought as much. Those gosh damned elites amirite?
Do you read the daily mail perchance?

And the referendum was never legally binding btw >_>

 

[Interface_2037]

*Advisory referendum

Legally held and quite clearly stated before and during the campaign that the government would respect the decision.

 

[Dalibor68]

That's convenient - it was earlier in the thread:

Yes, you posted a Leave poster to which I replied that being against this sort of uncontrolled mass migration in itself is not racist but the way it is used and instrumented in that example however clearly is racist, to which another user replied about my mass migration statement at which point there was no more specific UK-only connection. It's not rocket science.

 

[Roberto Larcos]

Legally held and quite clearly stated before and during the campaign that the government would respect the decision.

Yeah, that's still not enough to make it legally binding.

If it was to be binding, it would need to say that in the Act itself. It did not.

 

[AHA-Lambda]

What's "Hmmm" about it? Things like women equality or homosexual rights are completely different in countries like Afghanistan and there are even mandatory value countries in multiple european countries now.

I'll make it easier for you.

different cultural understandings isn't racist

your words not mine.

Legally held and quite clearly stated before and during the campaign that the government would respect the decision.

Which isn't the same thing, and clearly means bugger all, given that it's been taken to court and judges have looked at it.

Oh no, experts!!

 

[autumnleaf]

Legally held and quite clearly stated before and during the campaign that the government would respect the decision.

David Cameron saying something and some PR person printing a sentence on a phamplet does not make something legally binding. Parliment made the AV referendum legally binding but not this one, as the Supreme Court verdict will eventually prove.

You can't skip legalities because of this "will of the people" nonsense.

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

If people are trying to block brexit then that might have something to do with it increasingly looking like a disaster with no plan. If we're going to talk about will of the people lets get that extra NHS funding people voted for.

 

[Garjon]

Legally held and quite clearly stated before and during the campaign that the government would respect the decision.

You do realise that 'respect the decision' means absolutely nothing right? It's the standard non-committal reply in British politics and has been for decades. The only thing that will ensure we leave the EU is the fear of backlash from voters and that is enough to guarantee that we will leave the EU. Parliament has a right to say in how we do actually leave though, as was established in the act that allowed the referendum and was upheld in the courts.

 

[Dalibor68]

I'll make it easier for you.

I still don't understand what you are saying. Of course it is easier to integrate small groups in terms of our cultural understanding and values (like again, women equality and gay rights) than having mass migration where it either requires multiple times the amount of money or sub-communities form where they don't have to adapt.

 

[Pandy]

Did no one post the Patrick Stewart ECHR sketch yet:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptfmAY6M6aA

Bookmark it for 2020.

Of course they'll say that they're enshrining everything in UK law so it'll be fine, but then the UK will only have itself to answer to, and it'll only be a matter of time before the politicians will start chipping away at the margins without any recourse for those affected.