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[Deadbeat]

All valid points, and yes, i'm very familiar with the originals having played through them multiple times when they first came out. However, I believe that we pick up some things the original didn't have. The atmosphere is much better, the graphics are (obviously) much better, the lighting system COULD allow for better use of stealth and more gameplay opportunities.

Also, something people seem to be forgetting, a lot of the issues like hit detection, etc. can be fixed with a patch and their may even be a day 1 update. The game is not even out yet technically.

You cant fix horrible level design. You cant fix horrible dialogue. You cant fix a horrible story. You cant fix horrible QTE gameplay.

No, I certainly agree that the old games aren't bad or have aged terribly. I beat all three of the old games within the past year, finishing Thief 2 just last week. It was amazing, terrible last level notwithstanding. But they do show their age in spots, and flaws that could have been leveled against them even then certainly haven't disappeared.

I know different strokes for different folks, but in some places you see people wage complaints against this game in defense of the old ones, when the very same complaints could be said for Thief 1 or Thief 2.

Let's make no bones about it, the old games will almost assuredly have this beat in terms of level design and player agency, perhaps narrative and audio as well. But let's not pretend like the Looking Glass AI was some master class of player detection or combat tactics.

I agree the older games have problems. But the thing is the newer game does nothing to address those issues and instead goes backwards in everything else. Its not like HR which both moved forwards and backwards in different elements. Everything we have seen in Thief 4 is a step backwards.

 

[Remachinate]

It honestly sounds like you're just not familiar with the series. The Thief games are still practically unrivaled when it comes to atmospheric world design, and the excellent dialogue and voice acting goes a long way here.

"No paw hooks? What'd they do, just bump into each other?"

I agree the older games have problems. But the thing is the newer game does nothing to address those issues and instead goes backwards in everything else. Its not like HR which both moved forwards and backwards in different elements. Everything we have seen in Thief 4 is a step backwards.

It's too late for the developers to change anything and too early for a post-mortem, so why all the vitriol?

 

[Mister Chippy]

You cant fix horrible level design. You cant fix horrible dialogue. You cant fix a horrible story. You cant fix horrible QTE gameplay.

I agree the older games have problems. But the thing is the newer game does nothing to address those issues and instead goes backwards in everything else. Its not like HR which both moved forwards and backwards in different elements. Everything we have seen in Thief 4 is a step backwards.

What's wrong with the level design in Thief 4? I'm honestly asking, I'm a huge fan of the old games so I've been avoiding news about this one lest it disappoint me. What about it makes it bad?

 

[Deadbeat]

It's too late for the developers to change anything and too early for a post-mortem, so why all the vitriol?

Didnt watch the twitch streams?

What's wrong with the level design in Thief 4? I'm honestly asking, I'm a huge fan of the old games so I've been avoiding news about this one lest it disappoint me. What about it makes it bad?

Watch some twitch streams.

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

There's no denying memory is both fallible and malleable, but like pretty much everything with games, whether something "works" or not is subjective and dependent on the context of the time it was released. We hear nostalgia arguments all the time on GAF, but all it takes to prove whether an old game was ever truly good is to pop it back in and play it. With your modern perspective, yeah, some things don't really hold up too well. But some games, even if their approaches now seem archaic, worked just fine, and still work just fine. Most of us who played them years ago have the benefit of that context to put what now seems old into perspective.

I don't think it's extraordinary to ask that someone look past how a game looks or controls simply because it's old to focus on the actual game within. Beyond that, yeah it's annoying hearing someone dismiss a game because they don't share the context, but you can't necessarily fault them for that any more than they should be faulting you for having it.

 

[Mman235]

As for the "small" levels. All I can say is, thank God. The original could be frustrating with not knowing where to go and some of the levels, in their design, were a bit cumbersome and clunky.

I'll take a boiled down, smaller but detail packed levels over sprawling frustrating to navigate ones.

Re-used assets - I guess you would have to knock Skyrim on that too, nearly every game does this.

Outside of very minor cases (and given the amount of complaints I'm guessing that's not how it is) reused assets pretty much inherently go against the idea of the levels being "detail packed".

 

[justjim89]

You cant fix horrible level design. You cant fix horrible dialogue. You cant fix a horrible story. You cant fix horrible QTE gameplay.

I agree the older games have problems. But the thing is the newer game does nothing to address those issues and instead goes backwards in everything else. Its not like HR which both moved forwards and backwards in different elements. Everything we have seen in Thief 4 is a step backwards.

I wouldn't say everything is a step backwards. A bit of streamlining and modernization isn't inherently a bad thing. And haven't they confirmed they removed all QTE's from the game?

It also seems a bit premature to write off level design when most previews published have played at most 4-5 hours, not nearly enough time to see all of what the game has to offer.

Honestly, the way I frame the situation in my mind is it was always either going to be a new Thief game like this, or nothing. It's not like they scrapped some super-old-school hardcore stealth game to make this. And even if it ends up disappointing, it's still a new stealth game. We don't get nearly enough of those these days. Maybe that's just how I think of it as a means of justification since I've already pre-ordered.

 

[Kouichi]

I find it funny that most of the complaints made from the twitch stream are also the issues Thief 3 had. Despite it being a downgrade to Thief 2, I still thought it was a fantastic stealth game. Underrated, in my opinion.

I'm still staying optimistic for this game. I just can't see myself hating a game using the Thief formula.

 

[Mister Chippy]

Outside of very minor cases (and given the amount of complaints I'm guessing that's not how it is) reused assets pretty much inherently go against the idea of the levels being "detail packed".

There is absolutely nothing wrong with re-using assets. In fact it's a huge waste not to. Making any asset in a modern day game takes a lot of time, and if the game is going on a console it also takes up memory space (not as much of an issue on the PC, but it can impact load times). Throughout the entire history of game development devs have tried re-using as many assets as they can. Often there's absolutely no problem with this, since if necessary devs will create some unique assets to add to atmosphere.

However I have no idea how gratuitous the re-using of assets is in this game and like every aspect of game design, too much is a bad thing. However the simple act of re-using assets itself is no reason to dislike a game, only if they don't vary anything at all so everything starts to look the same.

 

[Mman235]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with re-using assets. In fact it's a huge waste not to. Making any asset in a modern day game takes a lot of time, and if the game is going on a console it also takes up memory space (not as much of an issue on the PC, but it can impact load times). Throughout the entire history of game development devs have tried re-using as many assets as they can. Often there's absolutely no problem with this, since if necessary devs will create some unique assets to add to atmosphere.

However I have no idea how gratuitous the re-using of assets is in this game and like every aspect of game design, too much is a bad thing. However the simple act of re-using assets itself is no reason to dislike a game, only if they don't vary anything at all so everything starts to look the same.

Pretty sure you're agreeing with me; it's only when you notice it a lot that it's a bad thing, and given that it seems to be a persistent complaint people have given about what's been streamed so far (despite the levels apparently being pretty small, and therefore opening themselves to more unique details) that's not a good sign.

 

[Ardenyal]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=MefdILzzRvc#t=1925 .. see from here.. it is said by both of them

Funny how she says video games have come such a long way since the days of original thief yet the AI and level design are a huge step back from the original.

The tech might advance but dumb designers still make dumb decisions.

 

[Mister Chippy]

Pretty sure you're agreeing with me; it's only when you notice it a lot that it's a bad thing, and given that it seems to be a persistent complaint people have given about what's been streamed so far (despite the levels apparently being pretty small, and therefore opening themselves to more unique details) that's not a good sign.

Sigh.

I've been avoiding news about this game for the longest time in the hope that if it was good people would force me to play it and if it was bad I'd just forget about it. Now it seems like it's not gonna be very good. I'm especially depressed to hear that the levels are small (I could forgive excessive asset reusal, if only because the original game didn't have much in the way of assets anyways). How small are we talking here? Small in comparison to the original Thief, or small in comparison to Deadly Shadows?

 

[justjim89]

I find it funny that most of the complaints made from the twitch stream are also the issues Thief 3 had. Despite it being a downgrade to Thief 2, I still thought it was a fantastic stealth game. Underrated, in my opinion.

I'm still staying optimistic for this game. I just can't see myself hating a game using the Thief formula.

Most critics on the Twitch streams seem to be mouth breathers from /v/ who hate any game that's not about dragging a feminist into the backyard and beating her with a rubber hose.

 

[Mman235]

Sigh.

I've been avoiding news about this game for the longest time in the hope that if it was good people would force me to play it and if it was bad I'd just forget about it. Now it seems like it's not gonna be very good. I'm especially depressed to hear that the levels are small (I could forgive excessive asset reusal, if only because the original game didn't have much in the way of assets anyways). How small are we talking here? Small in comparison to the original Thief, or small in comparison to Deadly Shadows?

I haven't watched the stream footage so I can't say myself, but the impressions seem to suggest they're Deadly Shadows sized at best.

 

[BY2K]

Pre-load is go for those who pre-ordered the PC version on Steam.

 

[Moff]

if the levels are deadly shadows sized, witthout the loading screens, and non linear, I will probably like this game. I dont need huge mazes like the caves and ruins in the first thief game.

 

[Insane Metal]

When will we get reviews?

 

[puzl]

if the levels are deadly shadows sized, witthout the loading screens, and non linear, I will probably like this game. I dont need huge mazes like the caves and ruins in the first thief game.

I watched the PS4 stream earlier. The loading times are AWFUL. 30-45 seconds between transitions in levels from what I saw. Hopefully it'll be better on PC with SSDs.

 

[Kouichi]

So this is a neat idea. Eidos has teamed up with Amazon, AMD, and the team behind The Dark Mod for a modding contest:

In celebration of our upcoming reboot to one of the greatest stealth franchises in gaming history, Square Enix and Amazon.com, in collaboration with a host of gaming partners including AMD and the team behind The Dark Mod, are excited to announce the ultimate THIEF mod contest!

Beginning today, we challenge the THIEF modding community to put their imagination to the test. Whether it’s creating a new heist for Garrett or reworking a classic level from the series, Square Enix and Amazon are looking for fans to submit entries in one of two categories.

Look, I Created a Mod: If you're already a modder, you can submit a short video playthrough (~5 minutes) of your work. If the mod was created as a team effort, you must get permission from and submit on behalf of all team members.

If I Could Mod, I Would Create... If you're not quite up to speed on modding, you can also submit a video pitch for a mod you would like to create. You should also check out other fan missions and resources provided by The Dark Mod team. Who knows, it might be easier than you think to make your dream Thief game a reality!

Your entries may be based on Thief: Gold, truly a great source of inspiration. To download a free digital version of Thief: Gold for the PC courtesy of Amazon.com, get your redemption code here
.
Once submitted, all entries will be voted on by the community, members of the Thief development team, and members of The Dark Mod team.

One winner from each of the two categories will receive a host of prizes from key partners, including:
o A high-end gaming rig from AMD which includes an AMD Radeon™ R9 290X graphics card
o An all-expenses paid trip to E3 2014 with Square Enix
o Steam code for all Square Enix Games with the matching Prima Guide
o A bundle of game development books on Kindle
o An Amazon Kindle DX

Closing date for entries is April 14, 2014. Full terms and conditions apply. For more information on how to enter and the full list of categories and prizes, visit the contest page.

To get The Dark Mod, voted PC Gamer's Mod of the Year in 2013, or for more information on how to create a mod, visit TheDarkMod.com.

http://community.eidosmontreal.com/blogs/Thief-Modding-Contest

I highly recommend anybody excited for this game to play the Dark Mod while you wait. It's fantastic and free stealth game that tries its best to recreate the Thief 2 experience.

 

[justjim89]

if the levels are deadly shadows sized, witthout the loading screens, and non linear, I will probably like this game. I dont need huge mazes like the caves and ruins in the first thief game.

Yeah, I'd be pretty satisfied with Deadly Shadows sized levels. The only level I felt was painfully small was the haunted ship.

Btw, doesn't pre-loading just feel like the biggest virtual cock-tease? "Hey asshole, all the files are on your computer now, but you can't play it until some mook at Square Enix flips a switch!"

 

[Nessus]

The Thief games are still practically unrivaled when it comes to atmospheric world design, and the excellent dialogue and voice acting goes a long way here.

Excellent voice acting? In Thief: The Dark Project?

Garrett is about the only tolerable one in the entire game.

Thief II is marginally better but still pretty bad.

At the very least I haven't seen anything in the new Thief that's any worse than in those games.

People really seem to have rose-tinted glasses when they talk about past entries in this series.

NOT saying they aren't great games or weren't instrumental in establishing the entire stealth genre. And yes there are things they do better that no games have done since.

But they were not perfect.

 

[Kouichi]

Excellent voice acting? In Thief: The Dark Project?

Garrett is about the only tolerable one in the entire game.

Thief II is marginally better but still pretty bad.

At the very least I haven't seen anything in the new Thief that's any worse than in those games.

People really seem to have rose-tinted glasses when they talk about past entries in this series.

I highly disagree. The Thief series has one of the greatest stories I've played in gaming. The writing, lore, and atmosphere is excellent. Here's one of my favorite cutscenes from Thief 2 to emphasize my point:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQlXurcQ4tk

And I'm not seeing through rose-tinted glasses because I played the Thief games for the first time a year ago. Though I also think this new Thief has an interesting story with a sick atmosphere.

 

[epmode]

Excellent voice acting? In Thief: The Dark Project?

Garrett is about the only tolerable one in the entire game.

The main characters are good. The minor characters are exaggerated but all that taffer garbage makes it enjoyable, not to mention that almost all of the dialogue is well-written.

And that "rose tinted" stuff isn't going to work on me. I played Thief 1 and 2 for the first time about three years ago. It's clearly the best stealth series ever made, even now.

 

[puzl]

I highly disagree. The Thief series has one of the greatest stories I've played in gaming. The writing, lore, and atmosphere is excellent. Here's one of my favorite cutscenes from Thief 2 to emphasize my point:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQlXurcQ4tk

And I'm not seeing through rose-tinted glasses because I played the Thief games for the first time a year ago. Though I also think this new Thief has an interesting story with a sick atmosphere.

I love Thief, but honestly, the voice acting is poor, even in the video you linked to. I never liked Garretts voice actually. He honestly sounds like an emo-Duke Nukem to me at times, especially with his silly one-liners.

It's a great game, but people need to get things in perspective.

 

[imjust1n]

I think I looks really cool.
Even it's 10 hours it's worth 60 bucks day one for me.
Some people get to deep with these games coming out just relax play games that talk to you. If they turn on horrible well you can always resell it...

 

[JerkShep]

Never played a Thief game so maybe I'll enjoy this one more than veterans of the series. But I'm definitely keeping low expectation, what I've seen (not so much really) is not rocking my world and the fact that I'd probably have to play it on old gen consoles doesn't help. Since the comparison with Human Revolution and Dishonored is sort of inevitable I'll throw my two cents about those games: I really liked both of them but I kind of feel that both shot their load a little to early. I felt that they didn't really live to the potential set up in the first 50% or 60% of the game (with some exception, there was a major mission near the end of HR that I enjoyed a lot and there were definitely some interesting encounters and situations in the last half of Dishonored). And well, both had some issues in the character growth department (too many available points).

 

[Miles Quaritch]

if the levels are deadly shadows sized, witthout the loading screens, and non linear, I will probably like this game. I dont need huge mazes like the caves and ruins in the first thief game.

Probably smaller and not designed as well thanks to the lack of jump. Or should I say 'contextual jump'.

Ugh, just saying it pisses me off something fierce.

 

[Nessus]

I highly disagree. The Thief series has one of the greatest stories I've played in gaming. The writing, lore, and atmosphere is excellent. Here's one of my favorite cutscenes from Thief 2 to emphasize my point:

The lore is great, absolutely. I love the different factions. It's easily one of the best things about the series and my single biggest complaint about the new one is that they took that out. I love that the City was built upon the ruins of a much older civilization that you explore in The Lost City mission. But lore is different from narrative.

The story in the first one is alright. It had some really cool plot twists, and I loved how the mission objectives changed mid-mission to the extent that any time you got a simple-seeming mission you knew that something was up.

But it didn't help that the actual story doesn't really even begin until the 6th (7th if you're playing Thief: Gold) mission. Everything that happens prior to that has no impact on the plot.

But the voice acting, even from the video you linked to:

"Has your wealth of knowledge grown so vast that you've lost all hunger for more? Is there no trust between us then?"

That line suffers from the same amateurish, deadpan, disinterested delivery that people are (rightfully) criticizing the new game of having.

Again, I'm NOT saying they're bad games, in fact I'd put them right along side Deus Ex (one of my all time favorites) in terms of their importance.

And I do get that for their time the voice acting and story were probably above average, and that the production values of a modern Thief should be held to higher standards.

Nonetheless I continue to be puzzled by a lot of the double standards the new game is being held to. It feels like people just want to hate this game when I've seen nothing in the walkthroughs, the streams, etc. that justify the vitriol.

 

[Raven77]

The original Thief definitely did not have amazing voice acting, outside of the main character. Also, the new thief beats its atmosphere by the advancements in technology. The original Thief also did not have the greatest AI. I beg some of you to replay the game and then come back here. Yes, I say these things while also stating that Thief 1 is in my top 5 of all time.

To say that you can know enough about the level design in the new one is way to premature unless you've played it yourself.

Also, to state that you can't have a detail packed world and re-use assets is just...I don't even know where to begin. Every game created since 1997 has reused assets. To try and make a fully featured 3d game world without doing so would be a monumentally time consuming and expensive task.

 

[justjim89]

Anyone who wishes not to be spoiled on story stuff should definitely be wary until they get their hands on it. Some folks have been streaming copies leaked early and there are at least a few story spoilers floating around at this point. I already accidentally came across a twist myself that, while predictable, was still not something I was expecting to be spoiled on.

Also, there are several people who have been watching the streams now calling it an absolute abomination, but I'm not sure if that's from reliable opinions or simply the vocal crowd determined to hate on this.

 

[Remachinate]

Anyone who wishes not to be spoiled on story stuff should definitely be wary until they get their hands on it. Some folks have been streaming copies leaked early and there are at least a few story spoilers floating around at this point. I already accidentally came across a twist myself that, while predictable, was still not something I was expecting to be spoiled on.

Also, there are several people who have been watching the streams now calling it an absolute abomination, but I'm not sure if that's from reliable opinions or simply the vocal crowd determined to hate on this.

It's not the story you have to worry about the streams spoiling, it's the sense of discovery you get from exploring a level for a first time, mapping it in your head, finding its secrets, all while remaining in the shadows. Once that part of a stealth game is gone, what do you have left to enjoy?

 

[justjim89]

It's not the story you have to worry about the streams spoiling, it's the sense of discovery you get from exploring a level for a first time, mapping it in your head, finding its secrets, all while remaining in the shadows. Once that part of a stealth game is gone, what do you have left to enjoy?

That too. I tuned into a stream for about a minute, just to see what people where scoffing at. Aside from the stream having a terrible framerate, the person playing was playing on normal apparently with none of the UI or objective markers turned off. It struck me as someone trying to rush through the game to make it look bad, like that guy who bum rushed through Dishonored in 4 hours to make it look criminally short.

 

[Snake201]

Some guy was streaming the game, got near the end, and it seems like he just gave up and played the ending from a video on Youtube.

 

[justjim89]

Some guy was streaming the game, got near the end, and it seems like he just gave up and played the ending from a video on Youtube.

Any general impressions you got from the stream?

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

The original Thief definitely did not have amazing voice acting, outside of the main character. Also, the new thief beats its atmosphere by the advancements in technology.

Well, maybe, maybe not. Atmosphere is also strongly affected by how a game actually plays, and the quality of the art direction. That kinda sounds like you're saying it's all about IQ and lighting effects.

Also, to state that you can't have a detail packed world and re-use assets is just...I don't even know where to begin. Every game created since 1997 has reused assets. To try and make a fully featured 3d game world without doing so would be a monumentally time consuming and expensive task.

Not sure I understand either. In what sense are detail and repetition mutually exclusive?

I was tempted to be obtuse and post a picture of a fractal.

 

[SlasherJPC]

I've only played the first 15 minutes. Will dive in more this weekend but so far.

 

[revolverjgw]

[Taffing intensifies]

 

[Korezo]

People are streaming on ps4. Game looks like oblivion thief guild quests so far.

 

[Larogue]

Any reviews yet?

 

[Jenga]

i told you guys this would be bad

why didn't you BELIEVE

 

[eighty(one)]

I've only played the first 15 minutes. Will dive in more this weekend but so far.

Impressed or no?

Everyone seems to think the game is jank :/

I've got it preordered on PS4, so I hope it decent enough...

 

[Messofanego]

Developers talking about the verticality of levels when there's only contextual climbing.

It's like if the developers of Journey said the game was about flying.

 

[SlasherJPC]

Impressed or no?

Everyone seems to think the game is jank :/

I've got it preordered on PS4, so I hope it decent enough...

I can't really comment much but so far for those first 15 minutes I was def enjoying it and the atmosphere. I'm planning to get some good game time in over the weekend. I didn't think it was jank as of yet, but a lot can change after the first 15 minutes.

 

[Krappadizzle]

You cant fix horrible level design. You cant fix horrible dialogue. You cant fix a horrible story. You cant fix horrible QTE gameplay.

I agree the older games have problems. But the thing is the newer game does nothing to address those issues and instead goes backwards in everything else. Its not like HR which both moved forwards and backwards in different elements. Everything we have seen in Thief 4 is a step backwards.

You absolutely can. Witcher and The Witcher 2 had massive free patches that added more story, better recorded dialogue, etc. It's by no means common for studios to do that, but it by all means can be done. This game in particular has had a negative rap since it's first major preview with all the points popping up everywhere. And that critcism was absolutely justified in my opinion.

I'm not saying this'll be a great game, but, I wouldn't say it's a lost cause either, or a death blow for the franchise. I am excited to play it, being a fan of the series. For $25.00 it's an easy purchase and I'm excited to see the changes and revisions. After playing through Dishonored multiple times, it's given me faith that if a studio is dedicated enough, games of this type are still viable in this day and age. We'll see though, it really could go any way with this title.

 

[Andrew Korenchkin]

So any news on the review embargo?

 

[Cave Johnson]

You absolutely can. Witcher and The Witcher 2 had massive free patches that added more story, better recorded dialogue, etc. It's by no means common for studios to do that, but it by all means can be done. This game in particular has had a negative rap since it's first major preview with all the points popping up everywhere. And that critcism was absolutely justified in my opinion.

I'm not saying this'll be a great game, but, I wouldn't say it's a lost cause either, or a death blow for the franchise. I am excited to play it, being a fan of the series. For $25.00 it's an easy purchase and I'm excited to see the changes and revisions. After playing through Dishonored multiple times, it's given me faith that if a studio is dedicated enough, games of this type are still viable in this day and age. We'll see though, it really could go any way with this title.

Just because the game can be changed doesn't give it excuse to have something "down the line" because they are inept to deliver a consistent product.

 

[969]

Keys are out on GMG.

 

[coughlanio]

Preloading via Steam, 19.6GB.

 

[Mman235]

Not sure I understand either. In what sense are detail and repetition mutually exclusive?

I was tempted to be obtuse and post a picture of a fractal.

Is this in the context of graphical detail? Because obviously detail in that sense isn't taken away from with repetition; if anything it can be enhanced as that smaller amount of assets can be heavily polished. On the other hand, detail in the sense of presenting a convincing, lived in world full of unique details is pretty much inherently harmed when things are blatantly reused like some impressions of the Thief streams suggest. (blatantly being the keyword there).

 

[partyboy]

Keys are out on GMG.

Not for me. Mmm, region restrictions.