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Third Party Wii Games
- Thread starter michaelpachter
- Start date
The consensus from many Gaffers who commonly discuss this debate is that 3rd parties should make big budget AAA games for the Wii. The problem is that folks are going so far so as to say that companies should be getting their top teams to make these Wii games and I think this is where we start to veer off into fantasy land.
No one has unlimited resources. If we're asking companies to put their top teams on the Wii that means they have to take them off their current projects, which are currently generating revenue for the company, and put them on something that might not be successful at all. That's incredibly unrealistic. This is why folks so often complain of B teams etc. Once upon a time a port wouldn't require an entire new team, but with the Wii it does, and so this is the problem that 3rd parties have.
This is a difficult problem for the short term. 3rd parties have to establish a new team with a new IP and have them work on it and iterate on it over a long period of time. This is what we're seeing from EA with EA Sports Active. This should have been done at the beginning of the generation but oh well, there's the mistake. I don't think any companies have the resources to turn around in a year and throw all their weight on AAA hardcore Wii games. It's not going to happen.
So "get their top teams on the Wii" isn't a good answer to this problem. It will be for the Wii 2 perhaps, but not now.
No one has unlimited resources. If we're asking companies to put their top teams on the Wii that means they have to take them off their current projects, which are currently generating revenue for the company, and put them on something that might not be successful at all. That's incredibly unrealistic. This is why folks so often complain of B teams etc. Once upon a time a port wouldn't require an entire new team, but with the Wii it does, and so this is the problem that 3rd parties have.
This is a difficult problem for the short term. 3rd parties have to establish a new team with a new IP and have them work on it and iterate on it over a long period of time. This is what we're seeing from EA with EA Sports Active. This should have been done at the beginning of the generation but oh well, there's the mistake. I don't think any companies have the resources to turn around in a year and throw all their weight on AAA hardcore Wii games. It's not going to happen.
So "get their top teams on the Wii" isn't a good answer to this problem. It will be for the Wii 2 perhaps, but not now.
From your link:dolemite said:
So their DS Babiez and Petz games took a hit, and Avatar failed = let's blame Wii? I don't think this proves your point. Especially when we know that Ubisoft's focus has been always on HD consoles. GRAW 1+2, AC 1+2 etc. versus Red Steel, Petz 2, Rabbids... That list isn't really comparable.
edit: I'm so slow.
Dragona Akehi
Retired
Forgive me, because I'm not that good at sales analysis and I don't want to give the impression I'm only blaming third parties for the conundrum that is Wii Third Party Sales. Nintendo deserves a shitcake every day for the fact they were unwilling to play ball with Third Parties in order to drum up support for their system.
But the only AAA Third Party games that aren't multiplat (like GH and Rock Band) and are from known IPs that I can think of on the Wii are MH3Tri in Japan and Rabbids Go Home in North America. We know how MH3Tri sold: very well, if a little disappointing.
So my question is: how is Rabbids selling?
But the only AAA Third Party games that aren't multiplat (like GH and Rock Band) and are from known IPs that I can think of on the Wii are MH3Tri in Japan and Rabbids Go Home in North America. We know how MH3Tri sold: very well, if a little disappointing.
So my question is: how is Rabbids selling?
Here is another factor I don't think has been addressed in this thread- the sheer amount of crap that is available for 20-30 dollars (UBISOFT I'M TALKING TO YOU).
Let's take Rabbids Go Home. From all accounts, a solid title, not a mini-game collection, seems to have some effort put into it.
Its 50 dollars.
Now, other than the really hardcore gamers (and even amongst them this gamegot minimal press), who would have any idea that this game is a quality piece of software worth 50 dollars? Especially when its literally surrounded by 15 dollar TV Show adaptations, not to mention 3 other Rabbids titles that probably go for 25 bucks top.
I think the stereotypical uber casual Wii owner is very price conscious and a game retailing for 50 dollars and expecting to stay at that price needs to either have massive visibility to the mainstream market or massive visibility to the hardcore market. Now how many quality 3rd party efforts have one or the other?
Let's take Rabbids Go Home. From all accounts, a solid title, not a mini-game collection, seems to have some effort put into it.
Its 50 dollars.
Now, other than the really hardcore gamers (and even amongst them this gamegot minimal press), who would have any idea that this game is a quality piece of software worth 50 dollars? Especially when its literally surrounded by 15 dollar TV Show adaptations, not to mention 3 other Rabbids titles that probably go for 25 bucks top.
I think the stereotypical uber casual Wii owner is very price conscious and a game retailing for 50 dollars and expecting to stay at that price needs to either have massive visibility to the mainstream market or massive visibility to the hardcore market. Now how many quality 3rd party efforts have one or the other?
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
teeny said:
you haven't named a company that has closed down / shrunk due to investing in hd software.
hell, you named one company that closed largely because the game they were working on for nintendo got cancelled, leaving them without a safety net when their other publisher went bankrupt
Dragona Akehi said:
I agree with this in regards to Japan, but disagree entirely with this concerning America, considering how well the Wii is selling completely without third-party support.
Heck, I'd think that charlequin's opinions on "risk-taking" (which he used to prove me wrong in the MC thread) could be used to show that Nintendo should not have tried to attract Western third-party support.
nincompoop
Banned
Yeah I'm sure that played a bigger role in them shutting down than LAIR bombing :lolStumpokapow said:
captmcblack
Member
The Wii can't even get second and third-tier stuff the HD consoles get.
Third parties want to cry about how hard it is to sell things on Wii, but while they're happy to do stupid shit like sell Ninja Blade - yet another hardcore ninja action game - in the wake of Ninja Gaiden 2 and DMC4 on the 360 where it has no chance of any recognition...they will instead make Rygar, a PS2 port from 2002/2003 and add a shitty new character model.
...and then, amazingly, they will complain at consumers that they can't sell that bullshit on the Wii. I would be willing to bet my life that Ninja Blade would sell better on Wii than Rygar did. Why? Because it'd have been a decent enough game that showed some effort in design/production, and it'd be in a genre that players enjoy (action). It wouldn't appear to be a compromise as compared to similar games in the genre on other consoles, and it wouldn't have much competition on the Wii.
It's interesting; on the one hand, I quasi-understand their thinking. Third-parties, especially now in this recession, are very risk-averse. If they take $20 million to make a real big Wii game, and put it out there and put all of their effort into it and do poor/mediocre sales, they are hurt not just there, but also in lost time/money they could've used to make such a game on the HD twins. On the other hand, they are such retards about what games they make, what consoles they put them on, and what kind of effort they put into making/advertising them that it is hard for me to just accept it as "fear of risk".
[EDIT: Also, fuck that Rabbids shit. That shit is compromise right there. If that game was Rayman, I could understand any concern. That shit is NOT Rayman, it is "wacky family-friendly minigame collection spinoff". No compromises!]
Third parties want to cry about how hard it is to sell things on Wii, but while they're happy to do stupid shit like sell Ninja Blade - yet another hardcore ninja action game - in the wake of Ninja Gaiden 2 and DMC4 on the 360 where it has no chance of any recognition...they will instead make Rygar, a PS2 port from 2002/2003 and add a shitty new character model.
...and then, amazingly, they will complain at consumers that they can't sell that bullshit on the Wii. I would be willing to bet my life that Ninja Blade would sell better on Wii than Rygar did. Why? Because it'd have been a decent enough game that showed some effort in design/production, and it'd be in a genre that players enjoy (action). It wouldn't appear to be a compromise as compared to similar games in the genre on other consoles, and it wouldn't have much competition on the Wii.
It's interesting; on the one hand, I quasi-understand their thinking. Third-parties, especially now in this recession, are very risk-averse. If they take $20 million to make a real big Wii game, and put it out there and put all of their effort into it and do poor/mediocre sales, they are hurt not just there, but also in lost time/money they could've used to make such a game on the HD twins. On the other hand, they are such retards about what games they make, what consoles they put them on, and what kind of effort they put into making/advertising them that it is hard for me to just accept it as "fear of risk".
[EDIT: Also, fuck that Rabbids shit. That shit is compromise right there. If that game was Rayman, I could understand any concern. That shit is NOT Rayman, it is "wacky family-friendly minigame collection spinoff". No compromises!]
Stumpokapow said:
And GRIN doesnt count because they went through rapid overexpansion? The fact is, they still had 3 bombs, which surely couldnt have helped.
I am not denying that there are other variables, Im just saying that bombing on the HD platforms is a very expensive mistake to make. With the kind of budget put into Wii games, similar numbers is sometimes even a success.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
nincompoop said:
well given that sony paid for lair, i'm pretty sure factor 5 got paid for lair.
after lair, they signed a major deal with brash. the vast majority of their resources went into brash projects. brash went belly up, having not paid them any milestones. simultaneously, they were working for a project for nintendo which nintendo dropped; maybe nintendo dropped it because they felt factor 5 were financially unstable and unable to complete the project after the brash thing, maybe they dropped it for no reason, either way, i think anyone who is aware of the situation knows that the nintendo/brash simultaneous project drops killed f5, not lair.
it's not hard to run a studio when you have ongoing work, because in general you don't sign publishing deals that pay you less than it costs you to make a game. it is very hard to run a studio when you have no ongoing work, no ongoing income, or particularly if you budget for income and then it magically vanishes
I'm unconvinced that any difference between HD and Wii costs have resulted in game studio deaths. Recognize that the Wii is still PS2 technology, which costs tens of millions to make games for and that with the Wiimote it is more expensive to produce a game for then for the PS2. It is still expensive to make games on the Wii.
Many of the companies that famously died this generation were incredibly weak anyway. Midway limped into the generation with saddleloads of debt, and other large closures can largely be blamed upon the extremely risky strategy of independent developers that live project to project.
Many of the companies that famously died this generation were incredibly weak anyway. Midway limped into the generation with saddleloads of debt, and other large closures can largely be blamed upon the extremely risky strategy of independent developers that live project to project.
I'm with donny (and kame-sennin) on this.
Basically, by now the consumers have filtered into their respective camps and are extremely unlikely to switch or change tastes. Positions have become entrenched, so to speak. The crucial time around the start of the gen was handled horribly by both Nintendo and the third parties, and now the third parties have no easily exploitable ("hardcore") audience on Wii and have trouble with the new market setup. They're caught between a rock and a hard place.
If anything, a very concentrated and (even more important!) prolonged effort would need to be made by both the platform holder and the third parties to break into new territory - and that just ain't happening over at camp Nintendo IMHO. So all that's left is wade through blindly and hope for nextgen to come soon.
...can I be greedy/lazy and ask for comparable numbers from the Sony/MS side? Always helps to put things in perspective.
Basically, by now the consumers have filtered into their respective camps and are extremely unlikely to switch or change tastes. Positions have become entrenched, so to speak. The crucial time around the start of the gen was handled horribly by both Nintendo and the third parties, and now the third parties have no easily exploitable ("hardcore") audience on Wii and have trouble with the new market setup. They're caught between a rock and a hard place.
If anything, a very concentrated and (even more important!) prolonged effort would need to be made by both the platform holder and the third parties to break into new territory - and that just ain't happening over at camp Nintendo IMHO. So all that's left is wade through blindly and hope for nextgen to come soon.
...can I be greedy/lazy and ask for comparable numbers from the Sony/MS side? Always helps to put things in perspective.
ShockingAlberto
Member
I don't know which way to fall on Rabbids.
On one hand, they're a recognizable brand now, the game had effort put in to it, it was clearly a labor of love. There aren't a lot of excuses you can make for poor sales.
On the other hand, the flip side of brand loyalty is bad brand association. The game is selling in line with the other Rabbids games because the audience has been distilled down to those people that play Rabbids games. You can't make four rather mediocre (to put it kindly) minigame collections and expect people are just going to understand that this new game is different and good.
On one hand, they're a recognizable brand now, the game had effort put in to it, it was clearly a labor of love. There aren't a lot of excuses you can make for poor sales.
On the other hand, the flip side of brand loyalty is bad brand association. The game is selling in line with the other Rabbids games because the audience has been distilled down to those people that play Rabbids games. You can't make four rather mediocre (to put it kindly) minigame collections and expect people are just going to understand that this new game is different and good.
January:
- Jaleco closes (IP and $7.736m/$17.68m loan sold to Game Yarou for $0.01)
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/new...hp?story=21930
- MS ACES (Flight Simulator team gone)
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/new...hp?story=21981
- MS cuts 30% of testers at MGS + unspecified GFW team
http://kotaku.com/5138389/more-micro...-windows-group
- Sega cuts 30 in San Francisco
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/new...hp?story=21942
- Eidos cuts 30 people at Crystal Dynamics
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/new...hp?story=21809
- Eidos closes Rockpool Games (Manchester) [mobile]
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...chester-studio
- Seta Corp (Super Entertainment & Total Amusement) closed
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/new...hp?story=21943
- EA to cut 10% of staff and 9 studios consolidated/closed by March
---- unspecifed # @ Tiburon (Madden and Tiger Woods divisions confirmed hit)
---- Blackbox (200 out of 350 jobs cut, remainder absorbed into EA Burnaby [Vancouver])
---- 21 customer service, half of QA, all of playtest group @ Mythic
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/new...hp?story=21974
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/new...hp?story=21931
- unspecified cuts at Sony and MS (kotaku sez bulk of the current 1400 cut from MS are from Entertainment & Devices)
Nexon closes Humanature studio (Vancouver) 90 Jobs lost
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...anature-studio
Unspecified layoffs at Kuju in US and UK
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...across-studios
Ensemble closes
http://www.ensemblestudios.com/blogs...nd-thanks.aspx
Disney Interactive Studios layoff ~70 at Propoganda, confirms plans to "consolidate a handful of its studios, including Avalanche Software and the Fall Line studio."
http://blog.wired.com/games/2009/01/...unced-tur.html
February:
Brighter Minds (World of Goo) goes Bankrupt
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...-goes-bankrupt
THQ Mobile shuts down in San Diego, Germany and UK (~100 jobs)
http://blog.wired.com/games/2009/02/...be-bomber.html
EA to close 12 facilities + 1100 jobs
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...g-USD641m-loss
Eidos drops casual studio (Gimme5games)
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...l-games-studio
Sega cuts 18% of workforce (560 jobs)
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/new...hp?story=22239
NCSoft cuts 55 at NC West (Europe)
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...uropean-office
Midway files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy
http://www.midway.com/us/pr/mpr_5591.html
Rare cuts artist and engineer positions (12 known)
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...neer-positions
Popcap acquires Gastronaut Studios
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...es-xbla-studio
Fillpoint acquires Crave Entertainment and SVG Distribution
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...-crave-and-svg
March:
THQ cuts majority of Volition's (Saint's Row) QA staff - 86 of 102
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/new...hp?story=22562
THQ to sell or close Big HUge Games, Heavy Iron and Incinerator becoming independent.
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...r-close-studio
Namco to buy all branches of D3 publisher, including studio Vicious Cycle
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...-d3p-businesse
April:
THQ confirms unspecified layoffs at BigHugeGames, still looking for sale
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...big-huge-games
May:
3D Realms closes
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...s-closes-doors
Grin Studios cuts 160 people
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthre...?f=59&t=768094
Factor 5 closes
http://www.edge-online.com/news/lair...actor-5-closes
June:
Management Buy-Out/Closure of Chemistry (Kuju)
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...emistry-studio
Deadline Games (Watchman Game) files for bankruptcy
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...for-bankruptcy
Crystal Dynamics cuts 25 more people
http://gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=23989
Midway San Diego and Newcastle face closure by end of June.
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...by-end-of-june
America's Army studio closes
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...o-closes-doors
Rockstar lays of 10% of New England staff
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...d-staff-report
ZeniMax (owner of Bethsoft) acquires id Software
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...es-id-software
July:
Heavy Hammer lays off Blue Omega team
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...damnation-team
Sony Online Entertainment lays off 5% of staff
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/new...hp?story=24483
Midway Closes Chicago Corporate Headquarters and Newcastle Studio
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...rporate-office
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...studio-closure
August:
Grin shuts down
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...ompany-closure
EA cuts back staff at Maxis
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...staff-at-maxis
Raven lays off 30-35
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...of-wolfenstein
September
Bottlerocket closes
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...oses-its-doors
Funcom to cut 20% of workforce
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...t-of-workforce
October:
Transmission Games lays off 20
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...-staff-members
Activision lays off 30 from 7 studios
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...ased-7-studios
Activision closes Shaba Studios
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...tudios-closure
Idol Minds lays off ~26
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...it-by-lay-offs
Transmission Games closes
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...s-doors-report
Slipgate Ironworks lays off ~50
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...gate-ironworks
November:
Square-Enix/Taito/Eidos cuts 10% globally
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...und-10-percent
EA to layoff 1,500 by April 2010, including "several studio closures"
Tiburon, Blackbox, Redwood Shores, Mythic reportedly affected
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/new...hp?story=25999
Pandemic closes
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...-studios-today
Krome faces unspecified number of layoffs
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...e-studio-krome
December:
Fuzzeyes lays off majority of staff
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...ority-of-staff
Threewave studio enters reorganization
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...nisation-phase
Rumor: Apsyr cuts staff by over 50%
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...ver-50-percent
SCEA drops 30 QA jobs
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...dates-qa-group
Paradox Interactive acquires AGEOD
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...eveloper-ageod
Oberon Media lays off 100
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...-off-100-staff
Like I said, there are other reasons as to closures, especially in this list, but as you can see, there are some seriously major players there.
- Jaleco closes (IP and $7.736m/$17.68m loan sold to Game Yarou for $0.01)
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/new...hp?story=21930
- MS ACES (Flight Simulator team gone)
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/new...hp?story=21981
- MS cuts 30% of testers at MGS + unspecified GFW team
http://kotaku.com/5138389/more-micro...-windows-group
- Sega cuts 30 in San Francisco
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/new...hp?story=21942
- Eidos cuts 30 people at Crystal Dynamics
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/new...hp?story=21809
- Eidos closes Rockpool Games (Manchester) [mobile]
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...chester-studio
- Seta Corp (Super Entertainment & Total Amusement) closed
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/new...hp?story=21943
- EA to cut 10% of staff and 9 studios consolidated/closed by March
---- unspecifed # @ Tiburon (Madden and Tiger Woods divisions confirmed hit)
---- Blackbox (200 out of 350 jobs cut, remainder absorbed into EA Burnaby [Vancouver])
---- 21 customer service, half of QA, all of playtest group @ Mythic
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/new...hp?story=21974
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/new...hp?story=21931
- unspecified cuts at Sony and MS (kotaku sez bulk of the current 1400 cut from MS are from Entertainment & Devices)
Nexon closes Humanature studio (Vancouver) 90 Jobs lost
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...anature-studio
Unspecified layoffs at Kuju in US and UK
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...across-studios
Ensemble closes
http://www.ensemblestudios.com/blogs...nd-thanks.aspx
Disney Interactive Studios layoff ~70 at Propoganda, confirms plans to "consolidate a handful of its studios, including Avalanche Software and the Fall Line studio."
http://blog.wired.com/games/2009/01/...unced-tur.html
February:
Brighter Minds (World of Goo) goes Bankrupt
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...-goes-bankrupt
THQ Mobile shuts down in San Diego, Germany and UK (~100 jobs)
http://blog.wired.com/games/2009/02/...be-bomber.html
EA to close 12 facilities + 1100 jobs
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...g-USD641m-loss
Eidos drops casual studio (Gimme5games)
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...l-games-studio
Sega cuts 18% of workforce (560 jobs)
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/new...hp?story=22239
NCSoft cuts 55 at NC West (Europe)
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...uropean-office
Midway files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy
http://www.midway.com/us/pr/mpr_5591.html
Rare cuts artist and engineer positions (12 known)
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...neer-positions
Popcap acquires Gastronaut Studios
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...es-xbla-studio
Fillpoint acquires Crave Entertainment and SVG Distribution
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...-crave-and-svg
March:
THQ cuts majority of Volition's (Saint's Row) QA staff - 86 of 102
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/new...hp?story=22562
THQ to sell or close Big HUge Games, Heavy Iron and Incinerator becoming independent.
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...r-close-studio
Namco to buy all branches of D3 publisher, including studio Vicious Cycle
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...-d3p-businesse
April:
THQ confirms unspecified layoffs at BigHugeGames, still looking for sale
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...big-huge-games
May:
3D Realms closes
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...s-closes-doors
Grin Studios cuts 160 people
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthre...?f=59&t=768094
Factor 5 closes
http://www.edge-online.com/news/lair...actor-5-closes
June:
Management Buy-Out/Closure of Chemistry (Kuju)
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...emistry-studio
Deadline Games (Watchman Game) files for bankruptcy
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...for-bankruptcy
Crystal Dynamics cuts 25 more people
http://gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=23989
Midway San Diego and Newcastle face closure by end of June.
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...by-end-of-june
America's Army studio closes
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...o-closes-doors
Rockstar lays of 10% of New England staff
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...d-staff-report
ZeniMax (owner of Bethsoft) acquires id Software
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...es-id-software
July:
Heavy Hammer lays off Blue Omega team
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...damnation-team
Sony Online Entertainment lays off 5% of staff
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/new...hp?story=24483
Midway Closes Chicago Corporate Headquarters and Newcastle Studio
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...rporate-office
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...studio-closure
August:
Grin shuts down
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...ompany-closure
EA cuts back staff at Maxis
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...staff-at-maxis
Raven lays off 30-35
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...of-wolfenstein
September
Bottlerocket closes
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...oses-its-doors
Funcom to cut 20% of workforce
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...t-of-workforce
October:
Transmission Games lays off 20
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...-staff-members
Activision lays off 30 from 7 studios
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...ased-7-studios
Activision closes Shaba Studios
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...tudios-closure
Idol Minds lays off ~26
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...it-by-lay-offs
Transmission Games closes
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...s-doors-report
Slipgate Ironworks lays off ~50
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...gate-ironworks
November:
Square-Enix/Taito/Eidos cuts 10% globally
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...und-10-percent
EA to layoff 1,500 by April 2010, including "several studio closures"
Tiburon, Blackbox, Redwood Shores, Mythic reportedly affected
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/new...hp?story=25999
Pandemic closes
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...-studios-today
Krome faces unspecified number of layoffs
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...e-studio-krome
December:
Fuzzeyes lays off majority of staff
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...ority-of-staff
Threewave studio enters reorganization
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...nisation-phase
Rumor: Apsyr cuts staff by over 50%
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...ver-50-percent
SCEA drops 30 QA jobs
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...dates-qa-group
Paradox Interactive acquires AGEOD
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...eveloper-ageod
Oberon Media lays off 100
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...-off-100-staff
Like I said, there are other reasons as to closures, especially in this list, but as you can see, there are some seriously major players there.
ScrabbleDude
Member
Look at the marketing with Ubisoft's Wii titles. Rabbids is supposed to be a great game -- I don't really recall seeing a large marketing push for it. It likely hasn't lived up to its sales expectations.schuelma said:
Just Dance is selling fantastically, and has a giant marketing push behind it.
Maybe if Rabbids was marketed this well, the sales would be there. But, personally, I don't think this is the lesson Ubisoft and other 3rd parties will take from this. I think it will be more along the lines of, "Rabbids didn't live up to sales expectations. Just Dance exceeded them. The Wii audience must want more games like Just Dance." Of course, when making these kinds of statements and acting upon them, they are shrinking down the casual audience that is buying games. By giving casuals who want games like Just Dance what they want, they will be helping to push the market in that direction. Casuals who would be more interested in games like Rabbids end up finding less of what they want when it comes time to get games. Not necessarily because less is being published, but because they're being drowned out amongst all the titles for the dance crowd.
Here's what you do.
You look at the facts.
You compile a comprehensive list of Wii games into a data-rich table.
You include all of the following categories and assign numerical data for each of them (say, rank as many as you can from 0-100):
date of release
significance/familiarity of game's main IP
advertising
- advertised a lot?
- advertised well/to the right demographics?
part of franchise?
- success of predecessor(s)
- quality of predecessor(s)
- quality of direct predecessor
innovation/originality/freshness
front cover (attractive/appealing?)
quality:
- quality/fame of developer
- perceived quality/average gamer reception (taken from various sources?)
- Metacritic score/critical reception
genre:
- familiar, reliable, popular?
- faced saturated market?
game's total budget*
- development costs*
- advertising costs*
game's sales to date*
game's price point*
game's profit to date*
(*try to rank these from 0-100 as well, for example, where COD4:2 would be basically 100 (except probably for profit to date), if it were on the Wii of course...)
And maybe a few other categories which I can't think of right now.
You ideally do this for each of the 3-4 main regions. (You may even ideally do the same for 360 and PS3 games.)
You notice trends... and that, surprisingly, things and people are predictable, even if you didn't or couldn't or still can't predict them.
You notice that first-party Nintendo titles that sell well score close to 100s in every category. You are also reminded that there are a few first-party Nintendo titles that do not score so well, and unsurprisingly receive fewer sales.
You notice that ALL third-party titles score poorly in at least 1 but often several categories.
You conclude that you need to follow basic principles of product development and marketing.
You respect Nintendo's unprecedented business acumen.
You learn to respect the intelligence of the Wii owner market.
You cry inside a bit, and ultimately give up on this generation. (Or be smart and put effort into games that tick more boxes.)
You look at the facts.
You compile a comprehensive list of Wii games into a data-rich table.
You include all of the following categories and assign numerical data for each of them (say, rank as many as you can from 0-100):
date of release
significance/familiarity of game's main IP
advertising
- advertised a lot?
- advertised well/to the right demographics?
part of franchise?
- success of predecessor(s)
- quality of predecessor(s)
- quality of direct predecessor
innovation/originality/freshness
front cover (attractive/appealing?)
quality:
- quality/fame of developer
- perceived quality/average gamer reception (taken from various sources?)
- Metacritic score/critical reception
genre:
- familiar, reliable, popular?
- faced saturated market?
game's total budget*
- development costs*
- advertising costs*
game's sales to date*
game's price point*
game's profit to date*
(*try to rank these from 0-100 as well, for example, where COD4:2 would be basically 100 (except probably for profit to date), if it were on the Wii of course...)
And maybe a few other categories which I can't think of right now.
You ideally do this for each of the 3-4 main regions. (You may even ideally do the same for 360 and PS3 games.)
You notice trends... and that, surprisingly, things and people are predictable, even if you didn't or couldn't or still can't predict them.
You notice that first-party Nintendo titles that sell well score close to 100s in every category. You are also reminded that there are a few first-party Nintendo titles that do not score so well, and unsurprisingly receive fewer sales.
You notice that ALL third-party titles score poorly in at least 1 but often several categories.
You conclude that you need to follow basic principles of product development and marketing.
You respect Nintendo's unprecedented business acumen.
You learn to respect the intelligence of the Wii owner market.
You cry inside a bit, and ultimately give up on this generation. (Or be smart and put effort into games that tick more boxes.)
schuelma said:
I actually think third parties are correct now, generally speaking, but I'd point out that they're correct now because they made such significant mistakes earlier.
They should have pushed the Wii. Not only with bigger games, but with more reliable talent, with more money, and they should have done this all much earlier than they did. PS3/360 had a slew major franchises (Metal Gear, GTA, Assassin's Creed, Final Fantasy) lined up well before launch. That's pretty much the sort of support I'm suggesting the Wii should have had.
But they didn't do that. They disproportionately supported the PS3 and 360 from the start, and now people are surprised that their games do disproportionately well on those systems. There is very much a snowball effect within a generation, and those snowballs are too big to stop now.
At this point, it's far beyond saving. It wouldn't just require convincing people to buy the Wii: it would require convincing people to abandon the PS3 and 360 for it, because virtually everyone who wants to play the next big shooter already owns an HD system.
ShockingAlberto said:
Yeah. I think it had a chance of doing better than the other entries if Ubisoft had really tried to sell it to the core gamers as a genuine quality effort, but to the best of my knowledge it didn't receive that type of marketing. So it was left to the mainstream consumer who saw the cover and thought it was another minifest, for better or worse.
ThatObviousUser
ὠαἴÏÏιÏÏÎ¿Ï Ïαá¿Ï εἶ
Yup.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
concentrated on the wiiteeny said:
closed although they were profitable as part of a rebranding initiative
closed to save money, didn't actually work on new products and not console related
sega put in huge efforts on the wii, these people were canned because they were marketing/pr/management types
studio has been circling the drain since the pre-ps2 era
mobile phone
hasn't really developed anything in a decade, closed because parent company went under
unrelated to hd consoles
related to hd consoles but not to software
pc
wii
rebranding, profitable team closed anyway
ps360
pc and not really related to world of goo
... list continues but this is hardly evidence for anything related to the hd consoles
A bit of answers about Rabbids Go home
http://www.gamekult.com/articles/A0000081989/
ok, it is France, that weird country, where people do not talk english, so the page is in french, but to sum up
- In France, AC2 was their biggest seller in 2009 with 400k units
- 2nd and 3rd were Wii games with Rabbids Go Home (300k in France Alone), then Just Dance (200k+)
- Avatar Wii is a big surprise (no numbers)
http://www.gamekult.com/articles/A0000081989/
ok, it is France, that weird country, where people do not talk english, so the page is in french, but to sum up
- In France, AC2 was their biggest seller in 2009 with 400k units
- 2nd and 3rd were Wii games with Rabbids Go Home (300k in France Alone), then Just Dance (200k+)
- Avatar Wii is a big surprise (no numbers)
ShockingAlberto
Member
I don't think it's fair to say HD gaming is causing anything bad financially right now.
But how long this business model is going to be sustainable is a bit tougher to say.
But how long this business model is going to be sustainable is a bit tougher to say.
ThatObviousUser
ὠαἴÏÏιÏÏÎ¿Ï Ïαá¿Ï εἶ
teeny said:
None of these links work.
With regards to "hardcore" games: Third parties have had this wrong from the beginning, and continue to get it wrong. When the Castlevania fighting game and Soul Calibur action game failed, that should have been the clue that sticking a known property into a different genre from usual was a bad idea. But instead, Resident Evil Darkside Chronicles and Dead Space Extraction.
Speaking of Dead Space Extraction, after the obvious consumer dissatisfaction from the reveal that it was a rails-shoo... "guided first-person experience" they should have went back to the drawing board with the game. This commonly happens with HD games (see Splinter Cell Conviction and I Am Alive), so why not with a Wii game? Let's continue talking about DSE, since it is an interesting case study. It got good reviews and was a quality game, so why didn't it sell? Well, let's not kid ourselves, it got decent reviews; it's not like it's getting the kind of universal acclaim Mass Effect 2 is. And you know what; quality is only one of three factors that is needed for a successful game. The other two are concept and marketing. With regards to Wii games, I think Tatsunoko vs. Capcom has been the first third party Wii game to get TV advertisement since the Sega trio, so DSE clearly fails that metric.
Concept is in my opinion the metric that is most important, and at the same time is the metric that most third party Wii games fail spectacularly. The fan backlash against DSE and RE Darkside Chronicles was immense, showing that the consumers clearly didn't care for their core concepts. And if they don't care for the core concept, no amount of advertising or quality will be able to win them over.
For example, I give you a conversation I had with one of my friends (paraphrased):
Friend: "Man, I can't wait for Dead Space Wii to come out."
Me: "It's out already; I have it." (marketing fail)
Friend: "Really? Is it good?"
Me: "Yeah, I enjoyed it."
Friend: "Sweet I'm going to go get it."
Me: "... You know it's a rails shooter right?"
Friend: "It is? Screw that." (concept fail)
I believe this is the reason why the Call of Duty ports, and even the Conduit which is mediocre in quality, have sold better than DSE and RE Darkside Chronicles, because the core concepts were appealing. Coincidentally, Call of Duty was an HD game first, and the Conduit was designed in an attempt to ape pretty much everything from modern HD FPS games.
Conclusion 1: If the core concept of your "hardcore" game wouldn't fly on PS3 and 360, don't bother making it for the Wii.
Conclusion 2: A well-done HD port to the Wii is safer than a ground-up game. (emphasis on well-done)
With regards to "casual" games: On Pach-Attack you had said that the casual bubble had burst. I disagree. It has only burst for third party casual games. Nintendo's more casual games (Wii Fit Plus, Wii Sports Resort, etc) are still performing very well. Two things here:
1) Annualized sequels for casual games don't work. Someone on this board and I can't find the original post and don't remember who said it so I apologize for not properly attributing this said that the "casual" audience goes for concept sequels rather than content sequels. This is why Guitar Hero World Tour outsold Guitar Hero 5; World Tour added significantly to the core concept (the full band) while GH5 just added some modes and new songs.
2) The "casual" audience has wised up. In a way I feel worse for the "casual" Wii owners than the "core" ones; if the "core" Wii owners are second class citizens then "casual" Wii owners may as well be homeless beggars. Third parties assumed that "casuals" were both naive and stupid, and as such gave them terrible games and, when they sold well, terrible sequels to said games. Unfortunately for them the "casuals" were not stupid, so they learned after playing said terrible games that the games were, indeed, terrible, and that the sequel should be avoided. A good example of this would be the Japanese release (I know we are talking US NPD but bear with me) of Deca Sports 2, which had an astounding 3% opening sell-through. Ouch.
Conclusion 1: Do not release a sequel to a casual game until the core concept is improved upon, like Wii Sports to Wii Sports Resort (more precise controls)
Conclusion 2: Treat the "casuals" as serious consumers, and you shall be rewarded. Examples: EA Active (excluding more workouts, see Conclusion 1) and Tiger Woods 10.
edit: minor grammar
Speaking of Dead Space Extraction, after the obvious consumer dissatisfaction from the reveal that it was a rails-shoo... "guided first-person experience" they should have went back to the drawing board with the game. This commonly happens with HD games (see Splinter Cell Conviction and I Am Alive), so why not with a Wii game? Let's continue talking about DSE, since it is an interesting case study. It got good reviews and was a quality game, so why didn't it sell? Well, let's not kid ourselves, it got decent reviews; it's not like it's getting the kind of universal acclaim Mass Effect 2 is. And you know what; quality is only one of three factors that is needed for a successful game. The other two are concept and marketing. With regards to Wii games, I think Tatsunoko vs. Capcom has been the first third party Wii game to get TV advertisement since the Sega trio, so DSE clearly fails that metric.
Concept is in my opinion the metric that is most important, and at the same time is the metric that most third party Wii games fail spectacularly. The fan backlash against DSE and RE Darkside Chronicles was immense, showing that the consumers clearly didn't care for their core concepts. And if they don't care for the core concept, no amount of advertising or quality will be able to win them over.
For example, I give you a conversation I had with one of my friends (paraphrased):
Friend: "Man, I can't wait for Dead Space Wii to come out."
Me: "It's out already; I have it." (marketing fail)
Friend: "Really? Is it good?"
Me: "Yeah, I enjoyed it."
Friend: "Sweet I'm going to go get it."
Me: "... You know it's a rails shooter right?"
Friend: "It is? Screw that." (concept fail)
I believe this is the reason why the Call of Duty ports, and even the Conduit which is mediocre in quality, have sold better than DSE and RE Darkside Chronicles, because the core concepts were appealing. Coincidentally, Call of Duty was an HD game first, and the Conduit was designed in an attempt to ape pretty much everything from modern HD FPS games.
Conclusion 1: If the core concept of your "hardcore" game wouldn't fly on PS3 and 360, don't bother making it for the Wii.
Conclusion 2: A well-done HD port to the Wii is safer than a ground-up game. (emphasis on well-done)
With regards to "casual" games: On Pach-Attack you had said that the casual bubble had burst. I disagree. It has only burst for third party casual games. Nintendo's more casual games (Wii Fit Plus, Wii Sports Resort, etc) are still performing very well. Two things here:
1) Annualized sequels for casual games don't work. Someone on this board and I can't find the original post and don't remember who said it so I apologize for not properly attributing this said that the "casual" audience goes for concept sequels rather than content sequels. This is why Guitar Hero World Tour outsold Guitar Hero 5; World Tour added significantly to the core concept (the full band) while GH5 just added some modes and new songs.
2) The "casual" audience has wised up. In a way I feel worse for the "casual" Wii owners than the "core" ones; if the "core" Wii owners are second class citizens then "casual" Wii owners may as well be homeless beggars. Third parties assumed that "casuals" were both naive and stupid, and as such gave them terrible games and, when they sold well, terrible sequels to said games. Unfortunately for them the "casuals" were not stupid, so they learned after playing said terrible games that the games were, indeed, terrible, and that the sequel should be avoided. A good example of this would be the Japanese release (I know we are talking US NPD but bear with me) of Deca Sports 2, which had an astounding 3% opening sell-through. Ouch.
Conclusion 1: Do not release a sequel to a casual game until the core concept is improved upon, like Wii Sports to Wii Sports Resort (more precise controls)
Conclusion 2: Treat the "casuals" as serious consumers, and you shall be rewarded. Examples: EA Active (excluding more workouts, see Conclusion 1) and Tiger Woods 10.
edit: minor grammar
What I see is that most of the time they aren't marketed as heavily as they are on the HD twins.Stumpokapow said:
I also have to add that my opinion is that currently the so-called "core" userbase consist primarily of Nintendo fans who will likely look for (and buy) very high quality releases only.
Third parties screwed it over not supporting the platform early (or releasing crap) when there were probably a lot of non-Nintendo enthusiasts who truly wanted something new that PS360 couldn't offer them at the time... then, 3rd parties somehow woke up due to enormous HW sales and decided to bring a bit of the support to the platform BUT when their games actually became available:
a) most of those enthusiast had already switched to PS360 permanently
b) not every effort was actually THAT good
c) and if that wasn't enough some incredible mistakes has been made (definitely too many on rail shooters)
hence the Wii is in this somehow strange situation, but there's nothing that third parties can do now to change this scenario, IMHO.
michaelpachter
He speaks, and we freak
$45.16, taking out both Wii Fit/BB and Wii Fit+/BBDNF said:
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
ShockingAlberto said:
I think it's clearly obvious that increasing budgets that more that offset increasing prices versus relatively stable sales and an increasing used market is not infinitely sustainable. And I don't buy ninnies who claim that increased technological efficiency and procedural generation of assets or content will mitigate this.
Any argument I make in this thread that there's no epidemic of HD bankruptcies or anything like that should not be construed as an endorsement of current trends in budgets, prices, and returns on investment.
John Harker
Definitely doesn't make things up as he goes along.
There isn't an audience for core content on the system because Nintendo hasn't created one.
Third parties never try to beat Nintendo at their own game - developmentally, they simply don't have the expertise, knowledge of their consumer, or the finances to do it adequately - so they ride Nintendo's coattails in terms of content. The titles that do well on Wii go after the same Nintendo-created audience, just in-between major Nintendo first party releases.
They attempt to sustain the audience instead of creating a new one. Which ultimate floods and dilutes it, but for the short term it's a profitable solution to the costly risk of building new core IP from scratch.
You can argue that games like Zelda and Metroid are core titles, but regardless of their genre, they are heavily established and nostalgic brands. Third parties simply haven't had a history of this with Nintendo since the SNES days. When third parties attempt to create original core titles for the system with some real budget behind it, they can find marginal success, but won't find the same type of success they do on the HD consoles mainly due to Nintendo ignoring the content themselves. Sony and Microsoft go bananas promoting and raising awareness for major third party core content. Look at the resources MS put behind Dead Rising and Lost Planet 1&2, or the money they spent securing RPGs out of Japan. Sony has several hugely successful third party franchises that were created on the PS2 that carried over to PS3, etc.
If Nintendo spent the resources to co-promote (or frankly, even acknowledge the content) and help build awareness for it, it would sell. Marketing dollars are one thing but getting the Nintendo faithful on board from Big Daddy is another. It's as much a PR issue in the marketplace as it is a marketing dollars one. Nintendo really doesn't care though as they profit either way - what difference does it make to them what kind of third party content sells on their system? The royalties are all the same if MadWorld sells 2 million or Guitar Hero does. They don't want to share development resources with third parties to maintain their competitive edge developmentally. They are notorious for this. They don't want to share marketing resources because they want total messaging control over their hardware in market. They want the broad family image of the Wii, it helps them sell systems and avoid controversy and helps establish them an "alternative option" to the more "hardcore" systems as the media likes to portray them. Sure they'll shuffle release dates around for their major titles to give third parties a little window room, but don't expect a big helping hand here.
MH3 will be an interesting experience with whatever backdoor deal Nintendo in Japan cut for the title, and really, it's the right approach, but doing it once or twice (Sonic&Mario Games etc) an entire generation is hardly a show of mutual support. Or care for supporting a given segment of the market.
It's the same story every generation for them, except this time Nintendo happens to have sold 50MM systems already.
Third parties never try to beat Nintendo at their own game - developmentally, they simply don't have the expertise, knowledge of their consumer, or the finances to do it adequately - so they ride Nintendo's coattails in terms of content. The titles that do well on Wii go after the same Nintendo-created audience, just in-between major Nintendo first party releases.
They attempt to sustain the audience instead of creating a new one. Which ultimate floods and dilutes it, but for the short term it's a profitable solution to the costly risk of building new core IP from scratch.
You can argue that games like Zelda and Metroid are core titles, but regardless of their genre, they are heavily established and nostalgic brands. Third parties simply haven't had a history of this with Nintendo since the SNES days. When third parties attempt to create original core titles for the system with some real budget behind it, they can find marginal success, but won't find the same type of success they do on the HD consoles mainly due to Nintendo ignoring the content themselves. Sony and Microsoft go bananas promoting and raising awareness for major third party core content. Look at the resources MS put behind Dead Rising and Lost Planet 1&2, or the money they spent securing RPGs out of Japan. Sony has several hugely successful third party franchises that were created on the PS2 that carried over to PS3, etc.
If Nintendo spent the resources to co-promote (or frankly, even acknowledge the content) and help build awareness for it, it would sell. Marketing dollars are one thing but getting the Nintendo faithful on board from Big Daddy is another. It's as much a PR issue in the marketplace as it is a marketing dollars one. Nintendo really doesn't care though as they profit either way - what difference does it make to them what kind of third party content sells on their system? The royalties are all the same if MadWorld sells 2 million or Guitar Hero does. They don't want to share development resources with third parties to maintain their competitive edge developmentally. They are notorious for this. They don't want to share marketing resources because they want total messaging control over their hardware in market. They want the broad family image of the Wii, it helps them sell systems and avoid controversy and helps establish them an "alternative option" to the more "hardcore" systems as the media likes to portray them. Sure they'll shuffle release dates around for their major titles to give third parties a little window room, but don't expect a big helping hand here.
MH3 will be an interesting experience with whatever backdoor deal Nintendo in Japan cut for the title, and really, it's the right approach, but doing it once or twice (Sonic&Mario Games etc) an entire generation is hardly a show of mutual support. Or care for supporting a given segment of the market.
It's the same story every generation for them, except this time Nintendo happens to have sold 50MM systems already.
I don't think Assassin's Creed is a good example because it's made for the strengths of the HD consoles. But I don't understand why a companies like Square-Enix does multiplatform DS-Wii games, but not PSP-Wii. Or Namco-Bandai that refuses to try with Tekken and Soul Calibur.bmf said:
I believe it's too late to get the Wii market to buy the third party AAA games like the HD twins market do. On the other hand, I think they should give better support to the Wii. Their titles aren't going to set the charts on fire, but they could earn some money. At the same time it would help them to build their brands among the Wii users. Right now the third parties are helping to create dozens of millions of Nintendo fans.donny2112 said:
Dragona Akehi
Retired
captmcblack said:
Rabbids Go Home is neither a minigame collection nor shitty. It's kinda like if Katamari got crossed with a platformer, but only without a jump button.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
evangd007 said:
You're asking why Wii games don't receive mid-production reboots?
The highest profile third party game in 2010 is Red Steel 2. Which received a mid-production reboot.
The best-selling Wii exclusive third party game--(I have no idea if LTD numbers put Carnival Games above it or not) is Rayman Raving Rabbids. Which received a mid-production reboot.
In general, pissing away a bunch of sunk costs to reboot a project is an incredibly costly and bad idea. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. But I don't think it happens any more on the HD consoles than it does on the Wii.
I genuinely don't believe EA / Visceral expected the kind of chilly reception they got, whether they ought to have expected it or not.
ThatObviousUser
ὠαἴÏÏιÏÏÎ¿Ï Ïαá¿Ï εἶ
Hrm... I'd expect NMH2 to be the final, conclusive word on how the Wii ecosystem is. Though I don't know if it's getting any advertising.
Aaron Strife
Banned
Yes, what are the chances that Wii gamers wouldn't support average games in favor of good (read: Nintendo) ones.dolemite said:
Coincidentally this is all of the 90+ games on Metacritic for Wii:
Mario galaxy (8m+ sold)
Twilight princess (5m+ sold)
World of goo (did well according to IGN)
Smash bros. (10m+ sold?)
Rock band 2 (compromised by late release, caught up pretty quickly)
Metroid prime trilogy (limited release)
RE4 Wii edition (1.6m+ sold, lead to rail shooters)
Okami (did okay according to Capcom)
Metroid prime 3 (1.5m+ sold)
Sega took a medium sized risk and got a medium sized pay-off. Conduit and HotD both did well, Madworld bombed but you can't seriously believe that it was a mass market game
and wtf@having to support crap? that's an awful strategy. 360 gamers were nurtured with COD2, Oblivion, Dead Rising, and Gears right out the gate and now that system does great numbers for software.
it will be outsold by TVC, I'm bettingAndrex said:
MH3 will be a true "test"
michaelpachter
He speaks, and we freak
JADS said:
I think that I probably look at this differently from most. I consider "casual" games to be games like Farmville and Tetris, much like the majority of you. I consider "casual" gamers to be people who only buy games occasionally, don't read gaming websites or publications, and who don't really know whether a game is good or bad.
I also agree with the definitions many of you use for "mass market" vs. "hardcore", but I think that there is some confusion about whether a "mass market" game is a casual game. In that sense, CoD MW2 is most definitely mass market, but not really casual.
I used casual in the OP to describe gamers, and if I referred to casual games there, I apologize for creating confusion. Games with the word "party" in the title are mostly casual games, but games like Madden are mass market, not casual.
So the distinction I intended to draw was that casual gamers are attracted to mass market games. Again, sorry for the confusion.
Stumpokapow said:
Are third parties really making PS2 eras B-tier games for Wii? Really?
Go check Need For Speed Nitro. It doesn't come close in quality to the PS2 NFSs, certainly not to underground or most wanted. Rail shooters were always an spinoff on the PS2 era. Spyborgs is equivalent to whatever beat em up capcom released back then?
ShockingAlberto
Member
I think part of the problem is making these statements about random games.Andrex said:
Sega thinks the final word was Dead Space Extraction.
That one guy who was on 1Up Yours about a year ago said the final word would be MadWorld.
Grampa Simpson
Banned
I for one would have thought that Reggie of all people would be all over the opportunity to court third parties with hookers and blow.Dragona Akehi said:
I think they should not only hype their game, so hardcore people know the game exists, but also continue advertising it AFTER it came out. The Wii software market has the ability to get more sales as time goes on, instead of slow down.
I think they should do something like movie studios do when promoting their movies. Hype it up to the casual market, then to the hardcore later.
I think they should do something like movie studios do when promoting their movies. Hype it up to the casual market, then to the hardcore later.
gamergirly
Member
michaelpachter said:
What I gather from your data is a red alert. I think the task of a 3rd party game selling well is going to be very difficult. It's going to have to be a game that's going to have to reach casuals(75% from your calculations) a hell of alot but still appeal to the hardcore(a strong but meager 25%). Which explains why Nintendo 1st(2nd) party games sell higher than anything else on the system.
I hate this realization too as it means that Zelda Wii might be "noviced" down a little too much in order to appeal to the majority of Wii owners
What can they do? I'm not sure of that really. Something charming and addictive.
If you take a look at the Indie game selection on XBL(Xbox Box Live), I can see ALOT of casual but addictive titles. Something like Splosion Man with a strong marketing campaign would have done wonders for the Wii. It's something that can be easily picked up but advances to the point of where anyone that played the game would find it challenging. It's also not graphic intensive and doesnt need a 360 or PS3 because all of its appeal is simple but hardcore platforming. Alot like New Super Mario Bros Wii.
That's what the Wii needs.
michaelpachter
He speaks, and we freak
Celine said:
Nintendo first party DS software sales were 16.25 million units for $499 million. Overall DS software sales were 60.4 million units and $1.55 billion, so Nintendo had 27% of units and 32% of revenues, much lower than on the Wii. Nintendo's first party ASP was $30.72, and third party ASP was $23.68, suggesting more mass market games produced by third parties.
ThatObviousUser
ὠαἴÏÏιÏÏÎ¿Ï Ïαá¿Ï εἶ
Aaron Strife said:
For some reason I'm thinking TvC will actually be some kind of hit. The buzz around it is relatively huge right now.
MH3 might have been a test in Japan but not here. NMH2 is more apt for the US market.
Mayor Haggar
Banned
Grin
Factor 5
BottleRocket
Pandemic
All closed due to HD failures last year alone.
You fail hard with an HD game, it's your ass. You fail with a Wii game, you'll still be working the next day.
Factor 5
BottleRocket
Pandemic
All closed due to HD failures last year alone.
You fail hard with an HD game, it's your ass. You fail with a Wii game, you'll still be working the next day.
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