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[Dude Abides]

You're missing the point. The problem is that these people hate that such material exists. Anything that isn't explicitly catered to their "highly refined tastes" *snort* must be purged from existence lest it destroy the very fabric of space and time.

If you've never seen this sort of sentiment here, you haven't been reading. I don't like dudebro games, but there's nothing wrong with them being there. What I can't stand is the attitude these people constantly display toward the Wii's success. They literally seethe at its numbers and happily write off anyone who likes those sorts of games as "non gamers" or "casuals", invoking those terms in the most negative light possible.

It's not the taste, it's the attitude. And sadly this attitude doesn't just permeate gamers, it's permeated the developers as well because as I mentioned before, it's run not by professionals anymore, but professional fanboys.

Great Rumbler, to whom I responded, actually did "hate the taste" rather than "the attitude," so I suggest it may actually be you who are missing the point.

But that aside, let me make sure I understand you correctly. You don't like that Dudebro gamers express contempt for your favorite games, so you feel the appropriate response is to express contempt for their favorite games, even though you don't actually have contempt for their favorite games. That sum it up?

 

[RurouniZel]

Great Rumbler, to whom I responded, actually did "hate the taste" rather than "the attitude," so I suggest it may actually be you who are missing the point.

But that aside, let me make sure I understand you correctly. You don't like that Dudebro gamers express contempt for your favorite games, so you feel the appropriate response is to express contempt for their favorite games, even though you don't actually have contempt for their favorite games. That sum it up?

No, I'm expressing contempt for their games WITHOUT saying that they shouldn't exist, because they should. There's a large market of people who enjoy them and more power too them. I can hate FPSs and War games and overly bloody games all I want, but you'll never hear me say that they shouldn't exist, or that their existence is wrong, or that they're "not games" (as a few expressed about say, Wii Sports in that one thread about the game that defines the generation or whatever).

See the difference?

And while I admit to disliking those sorts of games, I admit a good chunk of that dislike comes from the people who run around trumpeting their superior taste while simultaneously pissing on anyone who likes different games that maybe aren't huge AAA blockbuster efforts or don't meet their personal standards (again, the people who crap on anything Wii related).

It's a similar sentiment to people who hate Final Fantasy VII, despite the fact that they may have enjoyed it when it came out and when talking to them about the game, it's clear that it's not FFVII they hate as much as it is its rabid, fanfic writing, doujin collecting minions who put a huge stink around the whole thing. It's embarrassing because if you express like for it, you're immediately lumped in with their ranks.

 

[mugurumakensei]

Great Rumbler, to whom I responded, actually did "hate the taste" rather than "the attitude," so I suggest it may actually be you who are missing the point.

But that aside, let me make sure I understand you correctly. You don't like that Dudebro gamers express contempt for your favorite games, so you feel the appropriate response is to express contempt for their favorite games, even though you don't actually have contempt for their favorite games. That sum it up?

"The Taste" is a bit of a problem Those tastes have resulted in an explosion for development costs. Sustaining that model will only lead to the gaming industry collapsing, and Nintendo being the only big name to make it out. That would be a horrible thing even though I like Nintendo games. Their quality games take a lot of time to develop.

 

[Dude Abides]

No, I'm expressing contempt for their games WITHOUT saying that they shouldn't exist, because they should. There's a large market of people who enjoy them and more power too them. I can hate FPSs and War games and overly bloody games all I want, but you'll never hear me say that they shouldn't exist, or that their existence is wrong, or that they're "not games" (as a few expressed about say, Wii Sports in that one thread about the game that defines the generation or whatever).

See the difference?

Not really. "I hate your games" vs. "I hate your games but it's ok that they exist" is a distinction without a difference, at least to me, because I don't see the point in posting "I hate your games" at all.

"The Taste" is a bit of a problem Those tastes have resulted in an explosion for development costs. Sustaining that model will only lead to the gaming industry collapsing, and Nintendo being the only big name to make it out.

I doubt it. Industries usually don't just "collapse" when a demand for their products exists. Far more likely that the industry will contract to a more sustainable level, which it appears to be doing.

 

[RurouniZel]

Not really. "I hate your games" vs. "I hate your games but it's ok that they exist" is a distinction without a difference, at least to me, because I don't see the point in posting "I hate your games" at all.

Point taken. I guess another way of putting it is people can think what they want so long as they're not obnoxious about it with people who aren't into it themselves. It tends to push people away from the entire hobby rather than just that particular game or genre.

But getting back to my original point, the reason this attitude is troubling is because developers are now the very same fanboys of which I speak. People who loathe the Wii and it's popularity. They basically refuse to work on the Wii, treating it as beneath them, which is why it constantly gets less-than-honest efforts (save for the occasional No More Heroes or Muramasa), which is why the sales constantly go to Nintendo and not 3rd parties. They treat it like less, thus they get less from it.

Sorry that derailed a bit.

 

[Dude Abides]

oint, the reason this attitude is troubling is because developers are now the very same fanboys of which I speak. People who loathe the Wii and it's popularity. They basically refuse to work on the Wii, treating it as beneath them, which is why it constantly gets less-than-honest efforts (save for the occasional No More Heroes or Muramasa), which is why the sales constantly go to Nintendo and not 3rd parties. They treat it like less, thus they get less from it.

Sorry that derailed a bit.

You may be overstating the case. While I'm sure professional pride and a desire to work on the "latest and greatest" console technology plays some role, I think a more plausible answer was posted several pages back. The market for the kind of games the Dudebro developers are good at making is not that large on the Wii. The Wii expanded the market for video games but it does not appear to have expanded the market for Dudebro games. The Dudebro developer skill set does not easily translate to games the expanded Wii market likes, so they may as well stay on the HD twins.

 

[Durante]

It really is refreshing to see this from a big corporation like Nintendo. Normally, as in Sony and Microsoft, they're all about just putting out the same mass-market games that have been proven time and again and never taking any chances with something new.

Totally, like Sony does with Ueda's games!

 

[RurouniZel]

You may be overstating the case. While I'm sure professional pride and a desire to work on the "latest and greatest" console technology plays some role, I think a more plausible answer was posted several pages back. The market for the kind of games the Dudebro developers are good at making is not that large on the Wii. The Wii expanded the market for video games but it does not appear to have expanded the market for Dudebro games. The Dudebro developer skill set does not easily translate to games the expanded Wii market likes, so they may as well stay on the HD twins.

What you say is probably very true. If this is the case, than my personal suggestion to developers would be to attempt to expand their portfolios by hiring capable developers who aren't interested in making Dudebro games, or at least have no inhibitions about not working on them. Companies shouldn't feel like they have to stick to one genre or face extinction.

While their attempts haven't yet hit with a lot of success, one thing I do applaud Square Enix for is at least attempting to try out new genres and giving them a decent budget to help them along (see Nier, or that Snoopy game that was released in Japan, but oddly not here...)

With the Wii what we tend to see far more of from 3rd parties (sadly) are Imaginez style cash-ins or spin-offs in niche genres that aren't that hot (light gun games being the most prominent example), and then whining about how there can't be a market there for higher quality games since those didn't succeed. It's like complaining that you're not fluent in Japanese when you don't study more than an hour a week or just before a lesson. It's rather disingenuous.

 

[Eteric Rice]

"Throw good money after bad" might sometimes work, but it's not good business to follow as a rule.

I agree with you, but I'm not talking about throwing money at an average game follow up. It has to be something really good. It has to be something that the core gamers want more of, and from there build the base of people that play your game.

Take Etrian Oddessey for example. If I remember correctly (I could be wrong, it's been a while), the first game in the series did average. But the sequel did really good. The third one may do better, though it's possible it wont (IE, game reached it's peak).

I think Persona is another series like this. Originally it was just a spin-off, but now it's eclipsed the main series in popularity if I remember correctly.

You have to build a fanbase, and that takes patience. Don't just throw a decent game out there with no marketing, watch it bomb, and throw your hands up in defeat. Get a good team, make a really good game in a more mainstream genre, advertise it like you would any other big game, and see what happens.

Also, another thing is to STOP SPAMMING YOUR FRANCHISE. From what I've heard, the original Petz game did well, until they started spamming them. Same with Guitar Hero and DDR. You have to wait two or three years to let demand build again. Four years seems to be the best, though, as demand can become frothing demand at that point.

Square-Enix does this (one thing they do right). Final Fantasy comes out once every 4 years or so. Same with Dragon Quest. This allows that demand to build up with time.

SE's real problem is their mediocre spin offs. Rather than make new games and build fanbases for them, they make a good game (TWEWY for instance) and give up. Next day they're making more FF spin-off games that no one wants.

Like I said, Rome wasn't built in a day.

 

[Sadist]

What continues to surprise me is that the Wii customer buys Nintendo games almost half the time without actually knowing what they are. That's a marvel of branding and marketing.

I don’t know if that’s entirely true. If you look at New Super Mario Bros. Wii the consumer has a pretty good idea of what it is. It could be because 2D Mario is one of the most recognisable game concepts out there.

On the other hand, Nintendo had it’s fair share of titles which didn’t perform that well. Games like Excitebots, Another Code R and Disaster Day of Crisis weren’t great sellers and they had the Nintendo name to back them up.

 

[Dave Long]

You may be overstating the case. While I'm sure professional pride and a desire to work on the "latest and greatest" console technology plays some role, I think a more plausible answer was posted several pages back. The market for the kind of games the Dudebro developers are good at making is not that large on the Wii. The Wii expanded the market for video games but it does not appear to have expanded the market for Dudebro games. The Dudebro developer skill set does not easily translate to games the expanded Wii market likes, so they may as well stay on the HD twins.

I've seen developers on another board specifically say they won't ever make a game for the Wii even if that was all that was left as a platform. They really are fixated on the latest and greatest and the rest of their attitude is exactly as was said by RurouniZel... anything else is beneath them.

For many of these people, games are not a business. So they won't work on games with the primary concern being to make money and stay in business. They'd rather quit than do that.

 

[Eteric Rice]

I've seen developers on another board specifically say they won't ever make a game for the Wii even if that was all that was left as a platform. They really are fixated on the latest and greatest and the rest of their attitude is exactly as was said by RurouniZel... anything else is beneath them.

For many of these people, games are not a business. So they won't work on games with the primary concern being to make money and stay in business. They'd rather quit than do that.

And this is part of the problem. : /

 

[Faxanadu]

I've seen developers on another board specifically say they won't ever make a game for the Wii even if that was all that was left as a platform. They really are fixated on the latest and greatest and the rest of their attitude is exactly as was said by RurouniZel... anything else is beneath them.

For many of these people, games are not a business. So they won't work on games with the primary concern being to make money and stay in business. They'd rather quit than do that.

I'd bet a good chunk of $$ that they would still not be developing a ton of quality titles even if the Wii was similiar in GPU power. They would have some other excuse.

 

[Dude Abides]

What you say is probably very true. If this is the case, than my personal suggestion to developers would be to attempt to expand their portfolios by hiring capable developers who aren't interested in making Dudebro games, or at least have no inhibitions about not working on them. Companies shouldn't feel like they have to stick to one genre or face extinction.

No doubt. I'm sure someone will try to do this. But it may be too late.

I've seen developers on another board specifically say they won't ever make a game for the Wii even if that was all that was left as a platform. They really are fixated on the latest and greatest and the rest of their attitude is exactly as was said by RurouniZel... anything else is beneath them.

For many of these people, games are not a business. So they won't work on games with the primary concern being to make money and stay in business. They'd rather quit than do that.

I wouldn't read too much into message-board posturing. Actual unemployment may cause a shift in perspective.

 

[Durante]

For many of these people, games are not a business. So they won't work on games with the primary concern being to make money and stay in business. They'd rather quit than do that.

Well, if game companies want people to work for them that just think of it as a business then they should offer pay and (particularly) working conditions that reflect that. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

[KamenSenshi]

I'd bet a good chunk of $$ that they would still not be developing a ton of quality titles even if the Wii was similiar in GPU power. They would have some other excuse.

i bet then they would just complain about only nintendo games selling like they do now, or they would complain about motion control like they did up until sony and microsoft announced theirs. now instead of complete hate or indifference its some indifference and some praise. or in the case of natal's first showing utter nuttiness about how great it and motion controls are, in some cases coming from the same people that put down wii and call it waggle.

 

[The Technomancer]

Interesting relevant editorial on The Escapist:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/art...ing-gold/7088-Going-Gold-Reboots-and-Rip-offs

Here is the situation - even with the knowledge that each edition of God of War has sold not much more than the same 3 million-unit mark, we have three different publishers competing not only within the same genre, but within the same three-month release window. And yet the only conceivable rival I can think of to emerge for Mario on the 2D plane in the last five years is LittleBigPlanet.

The reasoning for this is simple - everybody knows 2D is dead. Yes, there really are people who will look at you with a straight face and tell you that, even when the premier 2D series has sold 30 million copies over the last four years.

Ah, but Nintendo are different, people will tell you. Well, I suppose if you mean they know how to market and sell games without having to bankrupt themselves, then yes, I guess you're right.

Publishers (and more than a few developers, I might add) have convinced themselves that it's impossible to compete with Mario anymore, and so there is just no point in trying. Some, like Microsoft with Rare's most recent Banjo-Kazooie title, have gone out of their way to make sure they're not in competition with him (with resulting poor sales that suggest a standard platformer was by far the safer bet).

Discuss

 

[Koren]

Interesting relevant editorial on The Escapist:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/art...ing-gold/7088-Going-Gold-Reboots-and-Rip-offs
Discuss

Well, I must say there are 2D platformers beside NSMB and LBP the last 5 years. Many. But they lack advertisment, brand recognition and/or effort. Even Nintendo's previous effort, Wario, sold quite poorly (although Wario Land on GB was pretty popular).

So I don't think it's as easy as this article seems to imply.

But they're definitively not wrong.

 

[AceBandage]

I've seen developers on another board specifically say they won't ever make a game for the Wii even if that was all that was left as a platform. They really are fixated on the latest and greatest and the rest of their attitude is exactly as was said by RurouniZel... anything else is beneath them.

For many of these people, games are not a business. So they won't work on games with the primary concern being to make money and stay in business. They'd rather quit than do that.

And these are the people that will be out of a job within 5 years.
Seriously, being able to create and work on a variety of genres and platforms and styles is what separates good developers from bad ones.

 

[Turrican3]

The market for the kind of games the Dudebro developers are good at making is not that large on the Wii. The Wii expanded the market for video games but it does not appear to have expanded the market for Dudebro games. The Dudebro developer skill set does not easily translate to games the expanded Wii market likes, so they may as well stay on the HD twins.

I still don't get it.

I mean, it's one thing to assume PC/PS3/360 have a larger potential userbase for Dudebro games, and that's undeniable IMHO... but how on Earth can this justify 3rd parties not even producing 1 (ONE!!1!!11!) decent, exclusive title per year for the Wii?

Damn, is it really smarter from a business point of view to compete with the flood of games of the same genre that are being continously released on the HD twins when there's a market obviously starving for quality FPS/TPS? I don't think so.

There is only one reason I can think of to justify this behaviour, one which has already been mentioned before: 3rd parties actually believe that the Wii userbase is 100% casual.

 

[farnham]

Prolly has nothing to do with the Thread itself but more with the OP but didnt want to make another Pachter thread

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/26999/Analyst_Piracy_Apple_Devices_To_Challenge_DS.php

After months of slowing sales, Nintendo reversed its fortunes via a very strong holiday -- but the pressure is not off, says Wedbush analyst Michael Pachter.

DS software sales are starting to lose steam, he says, "tracking slightly below the company’s 150 million unit guidance, and this year’s guidance reflects a significant decline from last year’s 197 million units," says the analyst.

The recent experience of publishers like Ubisoft would seem to bear this out; the company, which relies heavily on its lines of casual DS titles, pegged most of its recent losses on a contraction in that market.

Pachter says that piracy -- plus a new mobile platform in town -- might also be weakening the DS. "It appears that piracy in Europe and some substitution of iPod Touch games has impacted DS software sales more than we expected," says Pachter.

EEDAR's Jesse Divnich also said he believes the DS is seeing increasing piracy losses -- part of his recent case for why a hardware redesign might be imminent

Pachter expects the pressure on Nintendo to continue, he explains: "We think that lower pricing on the PS3 and Xbox 360 will provide consumers with a more difficult choice when considering a new console."

The Wii's gone from being $350 less expensive than the PlayStation 3 to just $100, for example, says Pachter, "with the feature-laden PS3 a tempting purchase for prospective console households."

"The holiday Wii sales boost was primarily attributable to a $50 gift card promotion offered by Wal-Mart," he asserts. "While we expect similar promotions at holiday next year, we expect the other consoles to be lower-priced by then, further eroding the Wii’s competitive price advantage."

Alongside that eroding price advantage, says Pachter, the DS and upcoming DSi XL are in the same range as the iPod Touch: "While we think that the DS is a super gaming platform, the iPod is a more versatile device, and has a 'coolness' factor that is difficult to overcome," he says.

Looks like Pachter still hasnt given up his Wii Doom in 2009 theory.. It just moved to 2010..

 

[Penguin]

I still don't get it.

I mean, it's one thing to assume PC/PS3/360 have a larger potential userbase for Dudebro games, and that's undeniable IMHO... but how on Earth can this justify 3rd parties not even producing 1 (ONE!!1!!11!) decent, exclusive title per year for the Wii?

Damn, is it really smarter from a business point of view to compete with the flood of games of the same genre that are being continously released on the HD twins when there's a market obviously starving for quality FPS/TPS? I don't think so.

There is only one reason I can think of to justify this behaviour, one which has already been mentioned before: 3rd parties actually believe that the Wii userbase is 100% casual.

The only thing I don't get about that, and I guess it depends on your line of thinking.

Is why not make a gateway FPS for casuals than? Something to get them hooked on your brand and potentially move them over to your HD FPS series or something.

I mean EA and High Voltage has shown the controller works for FPS, just make a good enough game. Curious how Red Steel 2 will do.

 

[AceBandage]

Prolly has nothing to do with the Thread itself but more with the OP but didnt want to make another Pachter thread

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/26999/Analyst_Piracy_Apple_Devices_To_Challenge_DS.php

"The holiday Wii sales boost was primarily attributable to a $50 gift card promotion offered by Wal-Mart," he asserts. "While we expect similar promotions at holiday next year, we expect the other consoles to be lower-priced by then, further eroding the Wii’s competitive price advantage."

Alongside that eroding price advantage, says Pachter, the DS and upcoming DSi XL are in the same range as the iPod Touch: "While we think that the DS is a super gaming platform, the iPod is a more versatile device, and has a 'coolness' factor that is difficult to overcome," he says.

Looks like Pachter still hasnt given up his Wii Doom in 2009 theory.. It just moved to 2010..

So many things I want to say right now, but honestly, I don't feel like getting banned.
So, instead I'll just post this:

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

The only thing I don't get about that, and I guess it depends on your line of thinking.

Is why not make a gateway FPS for casuals than? Something to get them hooked on your brand and potentially move them over to your HD FPS series or something.

I mean EA and High Voltage has shown the controller works for FPS, just make a good enough game. Curious how Red Steel 2 will do.

Because that would take effort. Something third parties are allergic to.

 

[Celine]

Interesting relevant editorial on The Escapist:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/art...ing-gold/7088-Going-Gold-Reboots-and-Rip-offs

Discuss

Yeah a 2d Mario clone can't compete against the Genre King.
A Zelda clone can't compete against the Genre King.
A Smash Bros clone can't compete against the Genre King.
etc... ( Nintendo has a lot of Genre Kings )

 

[Effect]

The only thing I don't get about that, and I guess it depends on your line of thinking.

Is why not make a gateway FPS for casuals than? Something to get them hooked on your brand and potentially move them over to your HD FPS series or something.

I mean EA and High Voltage has shown the controller works for FPS, just make a good enough game. Curious how Red Steel 2 will do.

Ubisoft is seemingly on their way to sabotaging Red Steel 2. So how that will do is completely up in the air now. However my hope for the game doing well has greatly lessened in recent weeks though.

 

[mantidor]

Yeah a 2d Mario clone can't compete against the Genre King.
A Zelda clone can't compete against the Genre King.
A Smash Bros clone can't compete against the Genre King.
etc... ( Nintendo has a lot of Genre Kings )

correct me if I'm wrong but although Zelda is critically acclaimed, other adventure games sell just about the same or more, right? in terms of sales Zelda isn't the genre king as far as I know.

 

[DidntKnowJack]

The problem with the Wii as far as 3rd parties go, is the fact that the Wii audience is splintered between the "new casuals," the diehard faithful, and everyone else in between. And the 3rd parties are struggling to find their audience because nobody really knows how many of those "only buy 1 or 2 games a year" people are actually out there. And those 1 or 2 games usually have Mario in the title.

 

[Beardz]

Guys, since the N64 era third party publishers had 'problems' selling their games; this isn't something new. Right now is more notorious because the Wii is selling like hotcakes.

 

[Celine]

correct me if I'm wrong but although Zelda is critically acclaimed, other adventure games sell just about the same or more, right? in terms of sales Zelda isn't the genre king as far as I know.

An adventure game could be everything even Monkey Island.
Zelda saga laid the pattern for its own genre.
As did Super Mario Bros or Super Smash Bros.

Super Smash Bros could be called a Fighting game but it is very obvious that when it was released there was already an established idea of what a 3d fighting game was ( think Virtua Fighter or Tekken ) and the 2d fighhting game genre was dying ( think Street Fighter ).
If you have ever played a Smash Bros game you know that despite being essentially a 2d game it is clearly different from a Street Fighter clone and despite sporting polygon it plays totally different from a Tekken clone.
It created its own genre/subgenre and it was ( is ) very successful at it.
Konami/Capcom/Ubisoft Smash Bros clones can't compete ( sale wise ) with the original franchise.

or maybe I'm drunken :lol

 

[Penguin]

The problem with the Wii as far as 3rd parties go, is the fact that the Wii audience is splintered between the "new casuals," the diehard faithful, and everyone else in between. And the 3rd parties are struggling to find their audience because nobody really knows how many of those "only buy 1 or 2 games a year" people are actually out there. And those 1 or 2 games usually have Mario in the title.

Another argument that seems weird.

Which console had 3, 10 million + sellers this past year? Sure people will say its Nintendo games, but it also proves that the audience is willing to buy games.

I think the problem a lot of developers are having is, the whole "casual", "hardcore" market. It hardly seems like Nintendo tries to cater to one group so it doesn't sell to one group. Don't make a game you think certain people will like, its like making a romantic comedy that you want the superhero geek to see, it just won't work because you are trying too hard. (to be fair I haven't seen my Super Ex-Girlfriend)

 

[AceBandage]

The problem with the Wii as far as 3rd parties go, is the fact that the Wii audience is splintered between the "new casuals," the diehard faithful, and everyone else in between. And the 3rd parties are struggling to find their audience because nobody really knows how many of those "only buy 1 or 2 games a year" people are actually out there. And those 1 or 2 games usually have Mario in the title.

How would third parties know that the userbase is splintered that way, when they haven't tried to appeal to ANY of them except casuals with cheap crap?

 

[DidntKnowJack]

Another argument that seems weird.

Which console had 3, 10 million + sellers this past year? Sure people will say its Nintendo games, but it also proves that the audience is willing to buy games.

I think the problem a lot of developers are having is, the whole "casual", "hardcore" market. It hardly seems like Nintendo tries to cater to one group so it doesn't sell to one group. Don't make a game you think certain people will like, its like making a romantic comedy that you want the superhero geek to see, it just won't work because you are trying too hard. (to be fair I haven't seen my Super Ex-Girlfriend)

I'm just saying, it's a big hurdle for 3rd parties. And that hurdle has a lot to do with how beloved Nintendo franchises really are, and the fact those Mario games (orwhatever) seem to be able to cross those casual/hardcore markets, whereas 3rd parties aren't able to so easily.

It's a problem to be sure, and I don't honestly know what 3rd parties can do at this point to overcome it. It's like on the 360/PS3, everyone was so afraid of Modern Warfare 2, so a lot of titles got pushed back to 2010. Same principle. Nintendo's version of MW2 last fall was NSMB Wii.

How would third parties know that the userbase is splintered that way, when they haven't tried to appeal to ANY of them except casuals with cheap crap?

Yeah, you're right about that.

 

[Koren]

because nobody really knows how many of those "only buy 1 or 2 games a year" people are actually out there. And those 1 or 2 games usually have Mario in the title.

Since people on all 3 systems buys 5 games a year, if there's a lot of people buying 1-2 games a year on Wii, there's a couple million "hardcore" wii players that buy a lot more games that "gamers" on HD systems...

(admittely, I'm one of them, but small minorities doesn't mean anything in statistics... take away the 10% buying the most games on one system and the 10% buying the less, the remaining 80% have probably really similar buying habits on all systems.)

 

[mugurumakensei]

correct me if I'm wrong but although Zelda is critically acclaimed, other adventure games sell just about the same or more, right? in terms of sales Zelda isn't the genre king as far as I know.

What game would be the genre king besides Zelda? Okami - Nope. Darksiders - Nope. Beyond Good And Evil - Nope. Even if you take action rpgs into this group, Zelda is still king.

 

[schuelma]

Jesus H. Christ Pachter


"The holiday Wii sales boost was primarily attributable to a $50 gift card promotion offered by Wal-Mart," he asserts. "While we expect similar promotions at holiday next year, we expect the other consoles to be lower-priced by then, further eroding the Wii’s competitive price advantage."


And people wonder why we give him a hard time? Are you serious with this crap?

"Yeah, the one week promotion by one retailer not tracked by NPD was the main reason the Wii doubled its competitors sales".

Are you freaking kidding me?

 

[farnham]

about that nintendo hurdle theory

i never see publishers cancelling games because they resemble genre kings..

Quite the contrary actually

when GTA became successful a lot of Me Too games came out (True Crimes and whatnot) and now the whole OpenWorld Genre has become one of the most frequent genres on 360 or PS3

when Halo became successful a lot of FPS games came out that tried to "capture" the Halo audience.. Once again the FPS genre is the biggest single genre on the 360 and the PS3

I dont get the reason why thirdparties dont try to do the same on the Wii..

correct me if I'm wrong but although Zelda is critically acclaimed, other adventure games sell just about the same or more, right? in terms of sales Zelda isn't the genre king as far as I know.

what..?

 

[jay]

What continues to surprise me is that the Wii customer buys Nintendo games almost half the time without actually knowing what they are.

Yeah, what's with this Super News Mario game that's lighting up the charts? If I have no idea what it is that means the average consumer doesn't, either.

 

[AceBandage]

Jesus H. Christ Pachter


"The holiday Wii sales boost was primarily attributable to a $50 gift card promotion offered by Wal-Mart," he asserts. "While we expect similar promotions at holiday next year, we expect the other consoles to be lower-priced by then, further eroding the Wii’s competitive price advantage."


And people wonder why we give him a hard time? Are you serious with this crap?

"Yeah, the one week promotion by one retailer not tracked by NPD was the main reason the Wii doubled its competitors sales".

Are you freaking kidding me?

Again, so many things I want to say, but I don't feel like getting banned.
I just don't understand how some people have the jobs they do.

 

[Agnates]

Yeah, the one week promotion by one retailer not tracked by NPD was the main reason the Wii doubled its competitors sales".

Wow, if some junior like me had seriously said that around here, he'd probably get banned so fast. Or at least humiliated by the GAF hive mind. Funny :lol

 

[farnham]

Again, so many things I want to say, but I don't feel like getting banned.
I just don't understand how some people have the jobs they do.

I believe he tells his real costumers something entirely different... He wants the publicity by making ridiculous statements..

 

[m3k]

the waves of rubbish 3rd party wii games are making it hard for the average shopper to tell the bad games from the good... and with little or no marketing for 3rd parties the uninformed shopper will go to nintendo brand name

without much marketing the average consumer, with little idea of what is critically enjoyed, im guessing finding a good 3rd party wii game in a place like wallmart is like finding a needle in a haystack... pot luck

 

[AceBandage]

I believe he tells his real costumers something entirely different... He wants the publicity by making ridiculous statements..

Would make sense.
He does seem like an egotist.

 

[Eteric Rice]

Again, so many things I want to say, but I don't feel like getting banned.
I just don't understand how some people have the jobs they do.

Wait, I thought he was an analyst for other stuff, and sort of just did video games on the side?

 

[Celine]

I dont get the reason why thirdparties dont try to do the same on the Wii..

They are doing it, they are the Wii Play,Sports,Fit,Guitar Heroes clones.

Or talking about the DS, the various Brain Training clones.

The "me too" strategy works only if a genre/subgenre is still growing in popularity ( and it is very successfull ).

On DS NSMB sold over 20 million copies but where are the notable 2d platformers ?
They are mostly nintendo famous 2d platformers like Kirby or Yoshi and the other famous franchise Sonic.
If a Genre King game sells millions of copies that doesn't mean that the particular genre is dying or nearly dead.

 

[leroy hacker]

Guys, since the N64 era third party publishers had 'problems' selling their games; this isn't something new. Right now is more notorious because the Wii is selling like hotcakes.

I don't mean to be insulting, but when someone makes this kind of revisionist statement I can't help but wonder if they were gaming at all during that generation since it has so little to do with the reality of that era.

The N64's third party problem wasn't that that the audience wouldn't buy the games, it's that CD-ROMs and Sony's licensing practices were so much more profitable for third parties that most games weren't on the N64 at all, not to mention that the PSX was easier to develop for and more in line with their development goals. There were very real and very good reasons for third parties not to be developing for the N64 but raw sales numbers had almost nothing to do with it. Square publicly abandoned the N64 five months before it had even been released.
As far as I can tell, the idea that Nintendo console owners don't like to buy third party games only became prominent around 2003-2004: before then the common criticism was that Nintendo consoles had so few third party games.

 

[farnham]

They are doing it, they are the Wii Play,Sports,Fit,Guitar Heroes clones.

Or talking about the DS, the various Brain Training clones.

The "me too" strategy works only if a genre/subgenre is still growing in popularity ( and it is very successfull ).

On DS NSMB sold over 20 million copies but where are the notable 2d platformers ?
They are mostly nintendo famous 2d platformers like Kirby or Yoshi and the other famous franchise Sonic.
If a Genre King game sells millions of copies that doesn't mean that the particular genre is dying or nearly dead.

Ill give you EA Sports Active.. But are you seriously comparing decent efforts like True Crime, Saints Row or even Killzone (even if they did not match the original) to games like Deca Sporta or Big Beach Sports.. ?

 

[Celine]

Ill give you EA Sports Active.. But are you seriously comparing decent efforts like True Crime, Saints Row or even Killzone (even if they did not match the original) to games like Deca Sporta or Big Beach Sports.. ?

Who said something about the quality of the efforts ?

 

[KamenSenshi]

Ubisoft is seemingly on their way to sabotaging Red Steel 2. So how that will do is completely up in the air now. However my hope for the game doing well has greatly lessened in recent weeks though.

i would like to be wrong but i dont think its going to sell all that great. at least not at first. it seems to have more of a focus on sword play which was the weak part of the first one. red steel was the first real game shown for wii, the first fps with good control released, and the first 3rd party million seller. it was followed up with imaginz and low budget stuff, now like 4 years later theres a second after ubi has dramatically hurt their brand in the eyes of wii owners. if it does control well and is of high quality i could see word of mouth getting it some sales but it would take time.

 

[ZealousD]

I think we're past the point of no return on the Wii's image. It's been out for several years already and I think no single game or groups of games could turn it into a machine that can sell traditional games like the 360 or PS3 can.

If you want to make a traditional ("hardcore") game on the Wii, you need to set your budgets and expectations low. Even if your game is very high quality, I don't think the audience is there anymore. The success of utter gutter trash like Game Party really shows you what the audience on the system is like. The Lego games do exceptionally well on the system, but honestly that's mostly because the Lego series is THE go-to third party series for kids. Sure, you might be able to sell a traditional game on the system and do well, but it's an extreme risk to put a real budget on it. You've either got to appeal to kids or appeal to the new blue ocean.

Also just want to be clear that I'm not trolling the Wii. The Wii has a hell of a lot of potential and it's a great system. I have certainly done my share of buying the traditional games that have come out on the system. It's just that I recognize that these games don't sell on the thing. I think it's better for the hardcore gamers that are Wii-exclusive to move on and buy a 360 or PS3. The quantity of quality games on the system is going to get worse before it gets better.

 

[Christine]

I don’t know if that’s entirely true. If you look at New Super Mario Bros. Wii the consumer has a pretty good idea of what it is. It could be because 2D Mario is one of the most recognisable game concepts out there.

On the other hand, Nintendo had it’s fair share of titles which didn’t perform that well. Games like Excitebots, Another Code R and Disaster Day of Crisis weren’t great sellers and they had the Nintendo name to back them up.

I don't think that there's a lot of software sales power to the Nintendo brand, but Nintendo has done rather well at cultivating several individual product brands that are very powerful. Mario, Pokemon, Wii ___, Zelda, etc. It's fair to describe this success as a "marvel of branding and marketing", as long as one remembers that the primary reason these brands have such selling power is due to hard-earned public perception of high product quality.

It's as much about the games that they don't release in these brands as the ones that they do, by the way. That's why Wii Music is rightly considered such a large failure - it jeopardized the strength of the brand.

Third parties, by comparison, have done little to build the strength of their brands in the eyes of the Wii audience, and arguably much to tarnish them.