SomedayTheFire
Member
My goodness I think I'm just dumb. I'm going to rewatch EoE and RoE now soon and see if it resonates with me more knowing this.
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Thoughts on the Rebuild of Evangelion?
- Thread starter Lights and Waves
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Poor representations of characters-especially Asuka, Ritsuo and Minato. Plus the story is just kind of there...it's very straight forward compared to the original series. Mari is a worthless character and Karowu is in far too much.
Apart from that the films are still fairly enjoyable. I love that 3.33 just said "Fuck it" and became its own thing. Fully expect some complete mind-fuckery for the finale.
P.S. Where was my dancing episode?
Apart from that the films are still fairly enjoyable. I love that 3.33 just said "Fuck it" and became its own thing. Fully expect some complete mind-fuckery for the finale.
P.S. Where was my dancing episode?
Ban Puncher
Member
1.0 - Get in the robot, Shinji.
2.0 - GET IN THE FUCKING ROBOT, SHINJI.
3.0 -
I liked seeing the same hate piled on 3.0 that EoE got 15 years prior.
In a decades time people will be calling it a fucking masterpiece.
2.0 - GET IN THE FUCKING ROBOT, SHINJI.
3.0 -
Don't get in the robot, Shinji.
I liked seeing the same hate piled on 3.0 that EoE got 15 years prior.
In a decades time people will be calling it a fucking masterpiece.
Jawmuncher
Member
Considering rebuild is what got me into the series I think 1.0 and 2.0 are pretty good. Still unsure about 3.0. Didn't hate it, but it's such a change with such a
it bothers the hell out of me. Feels like the kind of film that needed its sequel closely after not whenever I feel like it, which is where we're at currently.
cliffhanger
Lights and Waves
Member
Kaworu has been a fan favorite for years and is one of the most popular characters of all time. It's only fitting that they add more of him. His presence brings out a lot more depth in Shinji's character and offers some cool insight into Seele and the Angels.
Dancing was replaced by the Eva the required two people to pilot it. In the previous for 4.0, there's an Eva that's half 02 and half 08, a nod to the dancing episode.
1.11 and 2.22 are in my top five anime movies (paired together for convenience) and some of my favorite movie of all time straight up. 3.33 though... If I said how I felt about 3.33 without a filter, it would probably get me re-tagged. It literally made my life worse. I'm gonna go for a bit before I heart rate gets too high. I need to prep before I type out these things.
It does make me wonder how EoE would be perceived if it were released today. Like, how would all the people complaining about Shinji in 3.0 react Shinji doing absolutely nothing in EoE?
while there was definitely some mixed reactions from the fanbase, EoE wasn't as harshly received as people make it out be.
i think the criticism of 3.33 is partially due because of how successful of a work EoE is. An above poster called Mari a cynically designed character and I think you could lay the same claim against Eva 3.33. It's a film that tries desperately to evoke a lot of the same feelings and story beats as EoE but lacks a lot of the style, technical chops or character introspection.
maybe 4 will change how people feel about 3. i dunno.
Both scenarios were the result of Shinji's suffering.
In EoE he has seen so much shit he completely shuts down in depression. He has no hope left.
In 3.33 he clinges to that small glimmering hope to the point of irrational behaviour, when that hope is gone, he shuts down once again.
I don't see how it doesn't make sense.
Delta Assault
Member
EoE is a masterpiece?
I guess throwing in random references to the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Chamber of Guf are all it takes to make a masterpiece these days.
The Purple Pill
Member
They removed the depth of characters, the original series had achieved, and what was left, were empty husks, they look great, but on further inspection, you conclude they are hollow and lifeless objects.
Misato is nothing but a shadow of her former self, in the rebuild, who was an important pillar in the original.
The rebuilds, when thought as their own entity, are good, but the second you compare them to the originals, they are utter shit, except the first, since it follows the original very well, even if it's a sequel to the world that has ended, but playing the same tune once again.
EoE was a master piece, an perfect ending to the world, it resided in, it needed no continuation. Some things should be left for the imagination.
Star Wars episode 1-3, is what the Rebuilds are to the Evangelion series.
Misato is nothing but a shadow of her former self, in the rebuild, who was an important pillar in the original.
The rebuilds, when thought as their own entity, are good, but the second you compare them to the originals, they are utter shit, except the first, since it follows the original very well, even if it's a sequel to the world that has ended, but playing the same tune once again.
EoE was a master piece, an perfect ending to the world, it resided in, it needed no continuation. Some things should be left for the imagination.
Star Wars episode 1-3, is what the Rebuilds are to the Evangelion series.
I don't really see it mimicking EoE's story beats at all. If anything, it's just a new version of episode 24.
Of everything happening in that movie -- the Asuka/Eva fight, the characters' deaths, the mind-fucking imagery of Third Impact -- you're fixated on a couple esoteric references?
They decided they were tired of the old plotline in 3.33 and went with something completely off the rails.
That worked out as well as you might imagine such a thing would work out, like if Peter Jackson decided to do his own thing for Return of the King.
Best piano duet in all of anime though.
That worked out as well as you might imagine such a thing would work out, like if Peter Jackson decided to do his own thing for Return of the King.
Best piano duet in all of anime though.
Liquidsnake
Banned
Yeah its been on my radar for over two years.
i think the shinji character arc is a little similar but you're probably right.
i feel the movie tries to be evocative in a sort of unearned fashion where as it was a kind of logical in EoE. Again, I hope 4.0 changes my mind on this because I quite enjoyed Rebuild 1 & 2.
lmao
It was the best Space Battleship Yamato cross EVA cross fanfiction I've ever seen.
Delta Assault
Member
It seemed like the most likely candidate for things that could trick certain people into thinking they were watching a masterpiece.
You're probably right, definitely not the animation or music or series-long existential crises brought to their boiling point. It must have been the references!
This is really the whole series in a nutshell, even the original TV show. It was originally a drastically different story that lack of budget and depression ran it into something else entirely. Anno jettisoning original plot lines is tradition!
Jex
Member
Interesting, I disagree with literally everything you've written here, on basically a point-for-point basis.
The animation is woeful, especially movies based on a major franchise. The writing (and re-writing) of the plot feels haphazard. A new character is literally parachuted into the story to sell more merchandise and nothing they do ever feels earned. Sometimes different events occur than in the series, but the result is ultimately the same. Characterisation, on the whole, is far worse than the series. Every new Eva unit design is painfully bad.
The Rebuild series is, if I am being generous, an amusing diversion. At worst, it's garbage that tarnishes an already over-milked franchise with the stink of desperation.
Truly, a series of films to be avoided at all costs.
I like Kaworu too but I don't think he should be added just to please fans(or he shouldn't be expanded on to the detriment of more important characters.)
The movie also really changed his role from being a guy who questioned/threatened Shinji's sexuality to just being a full blown Yaoi pairing. I dunno he just seemed a lot more interesting when we knew little about him.
drunkendonuts
Member
I really enjoy them. The changes are interesting to me and it's nice seeing not just familiar Eva scenes in HD but new ones as well.
Mari's probably one of my new favorites, not just because she is a blatant fan service character as anno stated (heck I have even bought a mari figure). I just like how she's basically new new weird/lazy one.
As for the subject of the third movie, I'm in the camp that liked it. Mostly because of the action but also the strange character differences after the time skip. As I said in the other thread, I think the whole "curse of Eva" thing mentioned in the movie is just a thinly veiled critique of the fans who wish to have the same evangelion they had when they were around 14-15. As for the final movie, I'm seriously hoping Anno will drive it all into the ground. Like I'm sure it won't be what anyone expects and people will complain, but I'll be there along the sidelines loving every minute of it.
Mari's probably one of my new favorites, not just because she is a blatant fan service character as anno stated (heck I have even bought a mari figure). I just like how she's basically new new weird/lazy one.
As for the subject of the third movie, I'm in the camp that liked it. Mostly because of the action but also the strange character differences after the time skip. As I said in the other thread, I think the whole "curse of Eva" thing mentioned in the movie is just a thinly veiled critique of the fans who wish to have the same evangelion they had when they were around 14-15. As for the final movie, I'm seriously hoping Anno will drive it all into the ground. Like I'm sure it won't be what anyone expects and people will complain, but I'll be there along the sidelines loving every minute of it.
It's difficult to know how to feel about 3.0 without completing the Rebuild storyline (whenever that eventually happens) but my feelings at the moment are that it's trash. It skips over tons of essential story in order to throw the viewer into the same confused mindset as Shinji, and then devotes the rest of its time to Shinji being an idiot. If you're going to risk your entire plotline on the viewer being able to identify with Shinji's feelings and actions, then you really need to make sure he doesn't contract a tough case of plot-induced stupidity.
Moreover, taken as a retelling of the series, it feels redundant. While in some ways 3.0 is a big departure from the TV show, in other ways it becomes more of the same, in a bad way. The allure of the Rebuild was, as Anno put it, that these characters are the TV characters on medication. You begin to see that in 2.0 where, instead of sinking further into depression and insanity, the characters actually begin to communicate to each other and adjust to the challenges of life in healthy ways (Asuka being the best example, here). This manifests in Shinji's pro-active stance towards the end of the film. In 3.0 he reverts to being a whiny shit (until he becomes a stubborn, blind shit) and while I didn't mind the TV show pursuing the angle of people getting worse instead of better, in the Rebuild another angle on character development would have been appreciated. Instead, Asuka is back to being a snotty bitch, Rei is back to being emotionless, and Shinji is pulling "Shinjis" everywhere. Meanwhile Misato is being a bitch to Shinji for something that isn't his fault, which she never acknowledges. The TV show characters were "unlikable" characters that you nevertheless understood and sympathized with. 3.0's characters are just unlikable.
Moreover, taken as a retelling of the series, it feels redundant. While in some ways 3.0 is a big departure from the TV show, in other ways it becomes more of the same, in a bad way. The allure of the Rebuild was, as Anno put it, that these characters are the TV characters on medication. You begin to see that in 2.0 where, instead of sinking further into depression and insanity, the characters actually begin to communicate to each other and adjust to the challenges of life in healthy ways (Asuka being the best example, here). This manifests in Shinji's pro-active stance towards the end of the film. In 3.0 he reverts to being a whiny shit (until he becomes a stubborn, blind shit) and while I didn't mind the TV show pursuing the angle of people getting worse instead of better, in the Rebuild another angle on character development would have been appreciated. Instead, Asuka is back to being a snotty bitch, Rei is back to being emotionless, and Shinji is pulling "Shinjis" everywhere. Meanwhile Misato is being a bitch to Shinji for something that isn't his fault, which she never acknowledges. The TV show characters were "unlikable" characters that you nevertheless understood and sympathized with. 3.0's characters are just unlikable.
Come on now. I could understand if they tried to use this as a replacement for the original series, but it's just some fun expanded universe type stuff. Hell, the original series is being released on bluray in a couple months, so it's not like some George Lucas deal or anything.
Wait until Mari is introduced around episode 12.
Jex
Member
Please. Bringing up what people may or may not say in the future is completely irrelevant. People know trash when they see it and they were happy to call 3.0 out as such.
Now, I've certainly read some spirited, well argued defences of the film on a thematic level but none of them manage to address or excuse the overall shittyness of the direction or the writing.
The End of Evangelion is certainly a flawed movie, but the raw power of it's haunting imagery alone is enough to grant it a seat at the table of great cinema. 3.0 isn't fit to eat EOE's left over.
There isn't a single scene I can even remember from 3.0 because it was such a jumbled, unappealing, mess. A true piece of anti-film, lacking in style and vision.
I don't know shit about the original series, but I saw half of 1.11 once and enjoyed it a lot. And this thread just reminded me to order the first two rebuild blu-rays on Amazon, so thanks OP!
I'm determined to check out the original series someday, and I'd pay lots of money for a Western blu-ray box set, but it doesn't look like there's anything on the horizon so meh. Ain't got time for DVD's in 2015.
I'm determined to check out the original series someday, and I'd pay lots of money for a Western blu-ray box set, but it doesn't look like there's anything on the horizon so meh. Ain't got time for DVD's in 2015.
Jex
Member
pianooooooooooooooo
I can only partly remember that shoe-horned in piece of fanservice because it felt about as pandering as the entire existence of Mari. Dumb.
See, I've heard this argument before but I really don't buy it for a few reasons.
Firstly, the Rebuild of Evangelion is the first major work by Hideki Anno (I know a variety of stuff worked on this series of films, but his influence is clearly the most dominant) that feels entirely pointless. I can't feel any passion or emotion or desire behind its existence. It feels like a cash generating exercise that's as vapid and empty as Rei's expression. I don't see why it exists and the movies certainly don't make feel like the people who are making them care about them at all.
Secondly, if the Rebuild Of Evangelion series was going to be a clean break from the show, then it might be worth doing. If they dropped the format and structure of the series, along with its moody tone, and just made some crazy action adventure, then I might feel better about it. Instead, they partly re-created the original series, partly added fresh ideas in there, but they didn't really commit to making a fresh break from the series until the third movie. By that point, the tone has has basically started heading back towards the bleakness of the original series, so what's the point?
I just don't feel like there's anything left for Evangelion, as a franchise, to say. Hell, they could have practically ended everything after that jacking-off sequence and they would probably have been fine, on a thematic level.
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1.11 was pretty much a 1:1 retelling from the first portion of EVA. It was good and looked great.
2.22 was where some of the changes came in, including some good, some bad, and some odd cuts just to fit in a 3rd girl who was unneeded. Some of the impact from the original show is lost in a few scenes because of these cuts and changes, but the payoff at the end is 1000% worth it. Best of the rebuilds.
3.33 looks really good, but everything else is pure shit with the direction the story went in. Not sure if 4 will course correct before the end or be another troll movie out of left field. Either way I'll still watch it.
2.22 was where some of the changes came in, including some good, some bad, and some odd cuts just to fit in a 3rd girl who was unneeded. Some of the impact from the original show is lost in a few scenes because of these cuts and changes, but the payoff at the end is 1000% worth it. Best of the rebuilds.
3.33 looks really good, but everything else is pure shit with the direction the story went in. Not sure if 4 will course correct before the end or be another troll movie out of left field. Either way I'll still watch it.
SoulUnison
Banned
I hate her stupid, stupid face.
"Ooh, her plug suit is *pink!* She's so aloof and cute! Look at her cat smile! She's got glasses! She likes the way Shinji smells, so quirky! And she's so good at piloting EVAs..for some reason... Now she's in Unit 02, who's Asuka, again?"
Anyone who likes this character should feel sad at how easily manipulated they are.
All through 3.33 she just sits around going "Whatever, I'm too cool to care." I just want to *strangle* her.
Have no issue with them at all. I get this feeling that people think that this will erase the original series out of existence like some time paradox shit, chill the OG Eva isn't going anywhere, just enjoy it for what it is, which is more of Evangelion. Is it as good as the OG series? No, but it's not trying to be either, its a lot different, like Diebuster to Gunbuster, it seems to reflect the current time and Anime as a whole is a different beast to what it was back in 1995. Some great music, more excuse to make more awesome merch, and above everything else doing a great job of keeping the Eva franchise both relevant and in the collectives mind-share all these years later.
I can't possibly disagree with any of your above arguments, but I still don't agree that any of this tarnishes the series in any way. They can very easily co-exist. Not to mention many people, including myself, have managed to get some enjoyment out of the Rebuild movies, and I suppose that's as close to a point as you'll ever get. At the very least, I could argue that the Rebuild movies help to accentuate you're appreciation of the original series.
I love this idea.
Mari is fucking useless. Only used to say things to Shinji that other characters should have said because let's face it, she's never gone through the situation with Shinji like others have.
3.0/3.33 was wasted on useless time jump. Everyone looks similar because of 'curse'? WTF, that's one handy curse.
3.0/3.33 was wasted on useless time jump. Everyone looks similar because of 'curse'? WTF, that's one handy curse.
John Kowalski
Banned
Fucking hell, you guys don't deserve the greatness that is 3.0.
The plot is irredeemable. At least in EoE shit was going down all the time even if it didn't quite make sense. 3.33 is three acts of nothingness that could have been compressed into one scene if someone had just acted vaguely like a real person.
No one deserves that movie.
http://www.funimation.com/forum/faq.php?faq=faq_fun_general_1#faq_faq_funshows_13
I like how it's the first thing in their FAQ. Pretty funny.
SoulUnison
Banned
She doesn't just lose focus, she's basically put on a bus (
in the wrong EVA
bengraven
Member
She dies?
Ugh...
TheVampire
Banned
1.0 and 2.0 were great but 3.0 was SHIT
They ruined it with 3.0.
Fucking timeskip? Really?
I feel the same way.
They ruined it with 3.0.
Fucking timeskip? Really?
I feel the same way.
Okay, I didn't mention the positive after being down about Mari and 3.0. But I have to say that I like how almost every character in this one seems to have developed than their previous iteration(s):
Shinji: less shut-in, more willing to make the first move instead of standing still and doing nothing (even though doing so sometimes that fucks things up even more - the poor guy can't get a break)
Asuka: Have a lot more awareness of how her actions impact others, a lot more knowledgable about the secret going on within NERV, (so far) not as hostile towards Rei - just indifferent.
Rei: Has a greater sense of self-preservation than her 3 versions in the first series combined. Her first instinct when her Eva would explode was to eject herself out ("What would Rei Ayanami do? Aw, fuck this shit, I'm leaving").
Shinji: less shut-in, more willing to make the first move instead of standing still and doing nothing (even though doing so sometimes that fucks things up even more - the poor guy can't get a break)
Asuka: Have a lot more awareness of how her actions impact others, a lot more knowledgable about the secret going on within NERV, (so far) not as hostile towards Rei - just indifferent.
Rei: Has a greater sense of self-preservation than her 3 versions in the first series combined. Her first instinct when her Eva would explode was to eject herself out ("What would Rei Ayanami do? Aw, fuck this shit, I'm leaving").
SoulUnison
Banned
No, she doesn't die, she just... Doesn't really do anything.
Mari even takes over Unit 02 and is its pilot during its best action scene, becoming, literally, SUPER BEAST MODE MARY SUE!
Seriously. She's like the worst self-insert character ever.
"She's super awesome and she pilots Unit 02 better than Asuka even without the sync ratio Asuka would have with it *and* she knows the secret password to make EVAs go into super shounen-sentai mode!"
"She's super awesome and she pilots Unit 02 better than Asuka even without the sync ratio Asuka would have with it *and* she knows the secret password to make EVAs go into super shounen-sentai mode!"
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