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[Trup1aya]

Ah yes NeoGAF, that magical place where the OT is filled with people asking "How can someone vote against their own interests" and the Gaming side can have a thread like this where many are angry at Tim Sweeney because of a perceived slight against a brand they enjoy while ignoring the big picture and moves Microsoft continues to make.

It has nothing to do with loving a brand and everything to do with expecting more than unsubstantiated suspicions to accompany claims of conspiracy.

It's so annoying that the argument always devolves into "jump on hate train or you are an ignorant slave"

What ever happened to actually using current FACTS and evidence? Even when Sweeney admits he has none, everything he says should be taken as gospel?

 

[riotous]

Ah yes NeoGAF, that magical place where the OT is filled with people asking "How can someone vote against their own interests" and the Gaming side can have a thread like this where many are angry at Tim Sweeney because of a perceived slight against a brand they enjoy while ignoring the big picture and moves Microsoft continues to make.

Who is angry at Tim?

People are calling him out for his hyperbole.

MS wants their store to flourish; that's no secret, and they would prefer if UWP became the end all source for Windows applications.

They also have an operating system to sell; so unless people are out there un-installing Steam and buying UWP apps en masse they aren't voting against their own interest. Laughing at Sweeney for calling any of this "illegal" is also not voting against your own interests.

If Windows 10 Cloud is completely free, that is actually quite pro-consumer and not terrible news for anyone wanting a windows tablet. It's not evidence that MS plans on wholesale ditching Win32, if anything it's evidence that MS wants Windows based hardware to be more competitively priced vs. things like Chromebooks or cheap Android tablets. They then would love if people upgrade to full Windows Home or Pro too.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

I'm sorry, but it's so hard to take this guy seriously anymore. Going further, I not only seriously question his motives and what he's truly up to, but even without knowing what those motives are, you can still easily ascertain that the man is entirely full of shit and is just trying to stir up controversy.

If Microsoft is going to offer some kind of free to license OS, why wouldn't they try to advantage their own store? They not allowed to try to push their own shit? The way he frames a lot of the shit he says, knowing full well he's ignoring important minutiae, you would think that this is somehow a thing being forced on regular versions of Windows 10, and we will all be powerless to stop it.

Tim Sweeney needs to take his head out of his ass. The majority of steam users are on Windows PCs. Steam is an asset to Windows regardless of Microsoft's ambitions to see people spend more in their own store. Why the fuck would they intentionally sabotage something that is an advantage, and is most popular, on their own platform? If Steam suddenly no longer works for Windows, that hurts Microsoft, it doesn't help them. Jeez..

Ah yes NeoGAF, that magical place where the OT is filled with people asking "How can someone vote against their own interests" and the Gaming side can have a thread like this where many are angry at Tim Sweeney because of a perceived slight against a brand they enjoy while ignoring the big picture and moves Microsoft continues to make.

He's full of shit, so I'm going to say he's full of shit. In fact, let me tweet that to him right now.

 

[NoPiece]

I feel like some of y'all are arguing from a, like, 2010 perspective. There was a time that there was this big worry that PCs were going to see huge hits because lots of people didn't need their full power and could be happy with a convenient, lower-price limited-use device. The thing is that already happened and PC sales took a huge hit from people switching out to tablets and phones. The market that's left is much more skewed towards low-end enthusiasts (people who want to run Steam or Audacity or any one of ten thousand other apps that aren't going to be in the Windows Store anytime soon.

None of this is to excuse the behavior of Microsoft, who have consistently been an awful (bordering on malicious) steward of their platform for decades, but the conditions just don't obtain today for this supposed Trojan horse for killing win32 to play out.

There were ~550 million PC sales in the last two years. That's not an enthusiast market, that's a mainstream market even though it is shrinking. The bulk of those sales are people who are web browsing, writing email, watching some porn, in a google hangout, doing homework, etc.. Most of these people would be happy (initially) to take a free version of Windows that didn't support Win32 if it saves another $25.

Even if you look at just desktops, the cheap, crappy, only good for browsing porn desktops are what are selling. Check out the best sellers at Best Buy. A few gaming PCs in the top 24, a few iMacs, and a couple decently powered PCs, but a bunch $300-500 crap.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/desktop...ps/pcmcat143400050013.c?id=pcmcat143400050013

 

[Trup1aya]

There were ~550 million PC sales in the last two years. That's not an enthusiast market, that's a mainstream market even though it is shrinking. The bulk of those sales are people who are web browsing, writing email, watching some porn, in a google hangout, doing homework, etc.. Most of these people would be happy (initially) to take a free version of Windows that didn't support Win32 if it saves another $25.

Even if you look at just desktops, the cheap, crappy, only good for browsing porn desktops are what are selling. Check out the best sellers at Best Buy. A few gaming PCs in the top 24, a few iMacs, and a couple decently powered PCs, but a bunch $300-500 crap.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/desktop...ps/pcmcat143400050013.c?id=pcmcat143400050013

So selling windows to win10C windows to people who have no need/want for an open platform- who otherwise might by into another closed platform that is similarly cheap and adequate for their needs- all while giving them the option to upgrade should their needs change- is criminal?

Its actually called expanding into an additional market and is completely doable without them sabotaging the market that they currently dominate.

 

[NoPiece]

So selling windows to win10C windows to people who have no need/want for an open platform- who otherwise might by into another closed platform that is similarly cheap and adequate for their needs- all while giving them the option to upgrade should their needs change- is criminal?

Its actually called expanding into an additional market and is completely doable without sabotaging the market that you currently dominate.

It is not criminal, no. It also isn't good.

 

[Wonder Peter]

What most people aren't getting from this is that this version will probably come incorporated in pre-built desktops and laptops in general, there's no indication that this version is exclusively for low tier laptops.
What this means is, most of the userbase will not be able to use certain software without paying a full license directly to microsoft, which will cost them more than getting a laptop with the full fledged windows 10 built in, because normally oems versions are cheaper bundled with the computer.
And if they can get the software that they need through Windows Store, they won't feel the need to pay up for the licence, and microsoft will profit from sales made through the store.

 

[Trup1aya]

It is not criminal, no. It also isn't good.

Its also is a sane business decision. Also not like likely.

What most people aren't getting from this is that this version will probably come incorporated in pre-built desktops and laptops in general, there's no indication that this version is exclusively for low tier laptops.
What this means is, most of the userbase will not be able to use certain software without paying a full license directly to microsoft, which will cost them more than getting a laptop with the full fledged windows 10 built in, because normally oems versions are cheaper bundled with the computer.
And if they can get the software that they need through Windows Store, they won't feel the need to pay up for the licence, and microsoft will profit from sales made through the store.

OEMs go for license free OS specifically so that can target the low end market.

You might find some users who decide to start small then upgrade. But there is a large base of PC users who need more than what a UWP only windows could offer, and they know this from day one. OEMs dont want to miss out on that market, because the margins are higher.

This idea that users are going to, enmasse, choose computers and an OS that doesnt suit their needs is baseless.

 

[riotous]

It is not criminal, no. It also isn't good.

For now it's just a free version of an OS that previously had no free version; how is that not good?

It basically enables OEM's to sell Chromebook priced Windows machines.

It's only not good if it's all part of a plan for an unforseeable forced walled garden future.

 

[Exploratory]

Ah yes NeoGAF, that magical place where the OT is filled with people asking "How can someone vote against their own interests" and the Gaming side can have a thread like this where many are angry at Tim Sweeney because of a perceived slight against a brand they enjoy while ignoring the big picture and moves Microsoft continues to make.

Or maybe people just have common sense and can see the big picture isn't some sort of OS invasion by the big bad.

 

[Nzyme32]

So selling windows to win10C windows to people who have no need/want for an open platform- who otherwise might by into another closed platform that is similarly cheap and adequate for their needs- all while giving them the option to upgrade should their needs change- is criminal?

Its actually called expanding into an additional market and is completely doable without them sabotaging the market that they currently dominate.

The key difference here from what I can tell is that these are x86 systems not ARM as with the previous efforts. They in essence block out competing store fronts that are not supporting UWP. The hyperbole is a bit much but there is a kernel of truth there for the businesses in question that now will over time not be able to as easily connect with some of their old users that follow this initiative unless they cave to the store or UWP in itself, assuming the Windows store improves in its offering and systems are cheaper with the lack of an OS licence cost.

The running narrative here is "it's just chrome OS competition, it won't go further". Let's wait and see where they go over time. Also conveniently blocking competing APIs is interesting if that is true

 

[Wonder Peter]

OEMs go for license free OS specifically so that can target the low end market.

You might find some users who decide to start small then upgrade. But there is a large base of PC users who need more than what a UWP only windows could offer, and they know this from day one. OEMs dont want to miss out on that market, because the margins are higher.

This idea that users are going to, enmasse, choose computers and an OS that doesnt suit their needs is baseless.

But what if the OS suits their needs and the people can get most of the software on their store? Will it be worth for a person to pay the full licence just to access steam to play some games?
We're not talking about enthusiasts here, those of course will upgrade or already have the full fledged OS installed, but if this OS becomes the default on pre-builts it will cut some of the market for software that isn't on the windows store.

 

[QaaQer]

It has nothing to do with loving a brand and everything to do with expecting more than unsubstantiated suspicions to accompany claims of conspiracy.

It's so annoying that the argument always devolves into "jump on hate train or you are an ignorant slave"

What ever happened to actually using current FACTS and evidence? Even when Sweeney admits he has none, everything he says should be taken as gospel?

The only shitslinging I see is from people hating on Sweeney.

 

[dsk1210]

The first page is shockingly disrespectful.

Next year you buy your pre built desktop/laptop and it comes with windows cloud, you can not play your Steam/Origin/uplay games unless you pay Microsoft for the privilege.

Do you honestly think the savings on a proper OEM version are going to be passed over to the consumer?

 

[riotous]

But what if the OS suits their needs and the people can get most of the software on their store? Will it be worth for a person to pay the full licence just to access steam to play some games?
We're not talking about enthusiasts here, those of course will upgrade or already have the full fledged OS installed, but if this OS becomes the default on pre-builts it will cut some of the market for software that isn't on the windows store.

That market is already being cut into with Ms losing market share to Chromebook and tablet sales.

It's impossible to measure the overall impact of this new version of Windows due to that.

 

[Neander]

Tim's a paranoid fuck obsessed with MS. This is what's on his mind whenever he thinks of them...

 

[SenjutsuSage]

For now it's just a free version of an OS that previously had no free version; how is that not good?

It basically enables OEM's to sell Chromebook priced Windows machines.

It's only not good if it's all part of a plan for an unforseeable forced walled garden future.

Exactly, and the thing is nobody will be forced over to it, and if they buy this limited version without knowledge that's on them. You buy the appropriate product for what you want to do, and if you buy a cheaper, more limited product, that's on the person that made the purchase. I just don't see Microsoft finding ways to expand usage of their operating system as this inherently evil thing.

The first page is shockingly disrespectful.

Next year you buy your pre built desktop/laptop and it comes with windows cloud, you can not play your Steam/Origin/uplay games unless you pay Microsoft for the privilege.

Do you honestly think the savings on a proper OEM version are going to be passed over to the consumer?

You get what you pay for. Presumably these types of computers with this version of windows will be cheaper, and if you want better, then you're going to have to pay for it. I don't see what's so wrong about that. And if it isn't cheaper and then nobody ends up buying it, those companies wasted their time, and then they pay for it. Either way, customers need to be informed and are responsible for what they're buying. If anything good comes out of what Tim did here it's that at least now people know something about Windows 10 cloud when it probably wasn't really on anyone's radar before his tweets.

 

[riotous]

Do you honestly think the savings on a proper OEM version are going to be passed over to the consumer?

Yes; it's a highly competitive market. You can already but machines from Dell with Linux installed and they do exactly that, pass the savings on.

 

[The Albatross]

Tweet reads like something out of the trump playbook.

Say something ridiculous. Rather than back it up with facts of evidence, shout two ridiculous things at the end.

 

[Wonder Peter]

That market is already being cut into with ME losing market share to Chromebook and tablet sales.

It's impossible to measure the overall impact of this new version of Windows due to that.

The thing is, we have no guarantees that this OS will be exclusively sold with those low tier laptops, it could become the standard for every single machine with OEM versions.

 

[Banjo-Kazooie]

Tweet reads like something out of the trump playbook.

Say something ridiculous. Rather than back it up with facts of evidence, shout two ridiculous things at the end.

Your post is ILLEGAL

 

[QaaQer]

The thing is, we have no guarantees that this OS will be exclusively sold with those low tier laptops, it could become the standard for every single machine with OEM versions.

I prefer iOS for mobile computing, and playstion for gaming and I hate the windows pc bullshit that crops up from the platform's openess. If I can get a locked down version of winddows that gets rid of those headaches, even if it kills my steam library, I will. And, it will have nothing to do with money.

I like the idea of an open platform more than the reality.

 

[NoPiece]

For now it's just a free version of an OS that previously had no free version; how is that not good?

It basically enables OEM's to sell Chromebook priced Windows machines.

It's only not good if it's all part of a plan for an unforseeable forced walled garden future.

How is it unforeseeable when it is a walled garden? We can see it - the future is happening.

It is not good because it closes off a potentially large group of people from the entire non-UWP ecosystem. They would be better off in it, and we'd be better off with them joining us.

 

[Wonder Peter]

I prefer iOS for mobile computing, and playstion for gaming and I hate the windows pc bullshit that crops up from the platform's openess. If I can get a locked down version of winddows that gets rid of those headaches, even if it kills my steam library, I will. And, it will have nothing to do with money.

I like the idea of an open platform more than the reality.

It won't, it's still Windows, but you can only access their apps without paying up, not an entirely new OS, so that sacrifice will be meaningless.

 

[riotous]

The thing is, we have no guarantees that this OS will be exclusively sold with those low tier laptops, it could become the standard for every single machine with OEM versions.

Of course we have no guarantee; but the market suggests otherwise. Look at Dell hardware with Linux installed. Look at Chromebook prices vs the same hardware with Windows installed.

And OEMs will still want to profit off of license sales, they will likely still offer Wodows Home and Pro sales.

 

[Trup1aya]

The key difference here from what I can tell is that these are x86 systems not ARM as with the previous efforts. They in essence block out competing store fronts that are not supporting UWP. The hyperbole is a bit much but there is a kernel of truth there for the businesses in question that now will over time not be able to as easily connect with some of their old users that follow this initiative unless they cave to the store or UWP in itself, assuming the Windows store improves in its offering and systems are cheaper with the lack of an OS licence cost.

The running narrative here is "it's just chrome OS competition, it won't go further". Let's wait and see where they go over time. Also conveniently blocking competing APIs is interesting if that is true

Its a free version of windows that will be sold to a customer who has no demand for an open platform. They use their computers the same way people use their tablets.

The fact that people would be willingly buying into such an ecosystem isnt alarming. If it meets their usecase so be it.

This says nothing of the massive market who does require their platform be open.

 

[DarkoMaledictus]

It starts with low-end laptop, then mid-tier, them low end-desktops, then price goes up for pro to push more people to free version, etc.. It is so obviously completely in Microsoft's interest to do this, that is crazy to think they won't try. It is just how slowly they can attempt to roll it out without creating a backlash.

Tim is that you?

 

[dsk1210]

Yes; it's a highly competitive market. You can already but machines from Dell with Linux installed and they do exactly that, pass the savings on.

How much of a saving do you make on these?

 

[Shengar]

With their history, we should all be.

But people is forgetful, and don't read history book. That's why big companies got leeway like this when the supposedly tech enthusiast who understand the situation just sit down and see shit slide down to hell.

Whether it's an attempt to create a walled garden and eventually dump the rest of windows apps hasn't come true yet.

You said it yourself yet. You know that they'll eventually ditch win32 and yet not having any problem with. With the bolded word become positive, it'll be too fucking late to do anything.

 

[QaaQer]

This says nothing of the massive market who does require their platform be open.

You are over estimating the # of peeps that require an open platform.

 

[12Dannu123]

That market is already being cut into with Ms losing market share to Chromebook and tablet sales.

It's impossible to measure the overall impact of this new version of Windows due to that.

In the tablet market, funnily enough it's Android and IOS that are getting cut in market share by Windows.

Android and IOS sales have been on the decline and Windows tablet sales have been increasing. In fact its 16% market share is almost the 20% market share of IOS.

 

[Vash63]

So selling windows to win10C windows to people who have no need/want for an open platform- who otherwise might by into another closed platform that is similarly cheap and adequate for their needs- all while giving them the option to upgrade should their needs change- is criminal?

Its actually called expanding into an additional market and is completely doable without them sabotaging the market that they currently dominate.

It'd be up to courts to decide if it's criminal but it could definitely be seen as an abuse of monopoly.

And the reason it's bad is because it's going to increase the expense for ALL third party app vendors at the benefit of Microsoft. If this means there's a new market that requires that they either give 30% of their profit to Microsoft or convince their users to pay a fee to 'upgrade' Windows, that immediately affects every application developer's decisions on how they should build and sell their applications.

 

[Vash63]

How much of a saving do you make on these?

It's about $100 cheaper for an XPS Developer Edition (Ubuntu) vs the Windows Editions.

Edit: Sorry for the double-post, should've put this in the above one

 

[12Dannu123]

It'd be up to courts to decide if it's criminal but it could definitely be seen as an abuse of monopoly.

And the reason it's bad is because it's going to increase the expense for ALL third party app vendors at the benefit of Microsoft. If this means there's a new market that requires that they either give 30% of their profit to Microsoft or convince their users to pay a fee to 'upgrade' Windows, that immediately affects every application developer's decisions on how they should build and sell their applications.

You can't use that augment if Google and Apple do the same thing.

Or if this OS are for 2 in 1s then it make that point moot.

 

[Ihaa]

A lot of people are making arguments that this only applies to lower end consumers or people who don't care about gaming, etc. when the hype around LoL, Overwatch, Hearthstone, and many other games has brought way more "casuals" into the PC gaming industry. This move would directly be affecting those people who are joining PC gaming now and it would add a hidden fee just to play their favorite games. At the same time, Microsoft has used a tactic of embrace, extend, and extinguish before so I agree with Tim Sweeny that we should not be accepting of a OS that will potentially divide the market and remove many people from PC gaming because they will feel cheated by this hidden cost. We also don't know their future plans but people are acting as if Microsoft would never do anything evil when they're past should make us far more critical of them. We also can't say how many things that Microsoft had planned for UWP have been changed because Tim actively criticized them and made it something more people started caring about.

 

[wapplew]

Why everyone else can have their walled garden but Microsoft? It's not fair.

 

[bitbydeath]

Question is will it be a one time fee or will it be a subscription ala Windows Gold.

 

[entremet]

tim is so cray

 

[Nzyme32]

Its a free version of windows that will be sold to a customer who has no demand for an open platform. They use their computers the same way people use their tablets.

The fact that people would be willingly buying into such an ecosystem isnt alarming. If it meets their usecase so be it.

This says nothing of the massive market who does require their platform be open.

- Being free doesn't mean this a justification for blocking sets of APIs, types of file formats etc that sets of businesses and developers want to use or sometimes depend upon.

- Customers choose what they want, open system or otherwise, I haven't said anything differently

- At no point did I say it is "alarming" for customers to have an interest in anything

- It does say quite a lot about the "massive market who does require their platform to be open" as in the first point for the businesses in question, and as I said is something that will become more clear for that maker over time as MS makes the moves they want with it whether good or bad for them. A distant future of this being the default Windows to which customers then decide to pay extra for traditional compatibility or not may seem innocuous to you, but is likely of huge concern to the business relying on the current nature and economy of Windows rather than one that gradually shifts to a consumer base comfortable with the single store only more akin to Mac's style of "open" - where functionality, simplicity and ease of use are all tied harmoniously to the OS vendor stores and implementation of similar possibilities for competitors and other eocsystems is obstructed, curtailed and made cumbersome; where customers are best served by staying with the OS vendors store

 

[CertifiedFP]

Why the fuck would they intentionally sabotage something that is an advantage, and is most popular, on their own platform? If Steam suddenly no longer works for Windows, that hurts Microsoft, it doesn't help them. Jeez..

What do you think is more likely for the AAA scene to do if Microsoft forcibly phases-out Win32?

Move to Linux, or move to UWP?

Somehow I forsee them choosing UWP over Linux.

Microsoft might have considered Steam an asset in the past, but it's unquestionable that they see Steam as an obstacle to their ambitions now.

 

[QuantumZebra]

Tim rn

 

[Matt]

How ridiculously hyperbolic.

 

[Shin-Ra]

It has nothing to do with loving a brand and everything to do with expecting more than unsubstantiated suspicions to accompany claims of conspiracy.

It's so annoying that the argument always devolves into "jump on hate train or you are an ignorant slave"

What ever happened to actually using current FACTS and evidence? Even when Sweeney admits he has none, everything he says should be taken as gospel?

You're guilty of this, claiming Gran Turismo Sport won't hold 60fps based on past games.

 

[Trup1aya]

But what if the OS suits their needs and the people can get most of the software on their store? Will it be worth for a person to pay the full licence just to access steam to play some games?
We're not talking about enthusiasts here, those of course will upgrade or already have the full fledged OS installed, but if this OS becomes the default on pre-builts it will cut some of the market for software that isn't on the windows store.

People who use steam are already paying for full windows license. The existence of this new, low cost version of windows CHANGES NOTHING for them. How many serious gamers to you think are gonna by PCs preloaded with Win10Cloud?

Why are we talking about 'IF this OS becomes the default' when there is NO indication that the market for full versions is going to dry up. If we are going to talk about this big IF, it needs to be with the caveat that there is literally nothing that suggests this is the path being taken.

The windows market doesn't exist in a vaccumm. People are already buying into ecosystems with similar usecases that are similarly limited. And these products already cut into the market for Win32 software. This is why companies make android and Apple apps. Microsoft is challenging those products with a product of their own. It says NOTHING about an intention to sabotage their existing PC business.

 

[Wonder Peter]

People who use steam are already paying for full windows license. The existence of this new, low cost version of windows CHANGES NOTHING.

Why are we talking about 'IF this OS becomes the default' when there is NO indication that the market for full versions is going to dry up. If we are going to talk about this big IF, it needs to be with the caveat that there is literally nothing that suggests this is the path being taken.

The windows market doesn't exist in a vaccumm. People are already buying into ecosystems with similar usecases that are similarly limited. And these products already cut into the market for Win32 software. This is why companies make android and Apple apps. Microsoft is challenging those products with a product of their own. It says NOTHING about an intention to sabotage their existing PC business.

I already explained my argument, but i'll explain it again so you can understand it, this Windows Cloud is completely free, that will save 100$ when you buy your pc, so it's not far fetched to see that most OEMs would use it to have the better price even on premium laptops, and if the client would want to upgrade it could later through microsoft. This reduces the market for software that isn't on the store, it divides, if you had that pc and wanted to play for instance Binding of isaac (it's a cheap game that runs on everything) you would have to pay the full price of the licence just to have the option to really buy it, and do you think it's worth for a lot of users that are not enthusiasts? I don't think so, and that limits the userbase for every single software that isn't on Windows Store.
Another example free to play games, like Hearthstone, it's not on Windows Store, it runs on anything, you won't be able to play it without paying the licence to Microsoft, so it divides the market.

 

[vasametropolis]

I don't like sandboxed apps I've decided. The added security benefits are practically worthless to me.

 

[foltzie1]

Tim, then do you plan on supporting SteamOS?

 

[iavi]

I was ready to hate Win 10 cloud with my everything... but if it really is essentially a free/lite version of Win 10 with UWP support like I've been seeing mentioned in here, my opinion changes entirely.

 

[rokkerkory]

Trump scare tactics?

 

[Hello? This is Hailun!]

He was already a paranoid lunatic before.


He'll be on the Trump advisory panel with this bullshit.