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Time to Dump Time Zones (NYT Op-ed)

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Septimius

Junior Member
Can't you just have coffee in the morning? Do you really need the "9am" part?

You would learn what 9 am is. You say that our physiology uses the sun, but it's more true to say that our time system is based on relative sun time. 9 am is sort of the universal "I start at work" time, which means that instead of having a "universal" "9 am", where 9 am means the same thing all around the world, someone's thinking they're making something universal by saying "now you have no idea what time it is if you go to another country".

If I wake up in New York and it's 15:00, I have no idea if it's past noon or not. It doesn't make any sense.
 
I am all for this. So all for this. We don't need to arbitrarily start our days with our clocks set at a certain time. Our physiology uses the sun as reference for when to sleep/wake, not clocks, as it is.



Can't you just have coffee in the morning? Do you really need the "9am" part?

We spent two millennia trying to keep better track of time, and that led to the observation of celestial bodies, and better understanding math, developing calculus, modern science as we know it. Hell yes I want to know it's exactly 9 a.m.
 
Your natural circadian rhythm is driven largely by responses to light and darkness in your environment. You can change it, but any change to it is arbitrary on your part. Just like when your clock is set to is arbitrary. If you changed all of the clocks in your house to be set five hours back you're not suddenly going to be more tired. Not unless you arbitrarily change your sleep schedule to match the clock even though you want to keep the same sleep schedule.



Agreed. A better arbitrary way.


I need to speak to a law firm in Hawaii, I'm in Ohio and it's morning. When should I call them?
 

Septimius

Junior Member
Your natural circadian rhythm is driven largely by responses to light and darkness in your environment. You can change it, but any change to it is arbitrary on your part. Just like when your clock is set to is arbitrary. If you changed all of the clocks in your house to be set five hours back you're not suddenly going to be more tired. Not unless you arbitrarily change your sleep schedule to match the clock even though you want to keep the same sleep schedule.

Circadian rhythm works wonders if you live at the equator, but our circadian rhythms are also rhythmic, which means it continues in the rhythm that's set. Circadian rhythm, for those living far away from the equator is based more on convention than light and dark. It's actually the whole reason for DST. Sunrise is as early as 3:30, here, and as late as 9:30. That's seven hours difference. I don't follow that. I follow the clock. I follow that noon is when the sun is highest in the sky. Giving a universal time means no issues for you where you normally live, because you will be used to what used to be 9 in the morning now being 13:00. However, when you visit someone in India, you have no idea what time it is when you wake up and it is bright out, and the clock says 22:00.

That's why this is absolutely stupid. It has no benefits.
 
tumblr_ngv6d7WwvA1qz8x31o1_400.gif
 

iammeiam

Member
If you need something to tell you when it is morning or afternoon or night in other country so you can communicate with this person, set a deadline or whatever, than you need basicaly a timezone

Bingo; right now if somebody proposes a time for a meeting in EST and I need to object, I can say "That's 4AM for me." and the issue becomes clear. "That's early for me." Doesn't really convey it, and if I have to restate the time in whatever hour is the equivalent in their time zone, it's like we never got rid of the concept in the first place because I'm basically back to saying "That's 4AM for me."
 

kswiston

Member
I don't think this is practical for most daily life activities, especially if you are in a part of the world what would end up getting their date switch in the middle of the workday.
 

emb

Member
You can avoid to search "what time is it in NYC", but you still have no idea what time it is in NYC. "Global time" means nothing. The article brings up that for computers and air traffic it makes sense, and they're god damned right it makes sense. I'm a programmer. Localization of time zones, dates, week numbers are the silliest task to spent way too much time on. This won't solve half of that. They quote 39 time zones being silly. I agree. Standardize on only "on the hour" time zone. Australia and India can adjust. But this solves way less than they think it does. What most programmers argue is that you should have a standardized way to represent time. We don't care about offsets in hours. That's easy. What's hard is knowing which way some people represent their dates. is it DDMMYY? Maybe it's MMDDYY? Because that makes zero sense. It should be YYMMDD, since computers can sort it with the alphabet, but whatever. Programs use epoch time anyway.
Hmm. I'm a programmer too, and definitely agree that it would be great not to have to worry about things like date format, time zone, etc etc. But like you said, this solves way less than hoped for. Even if there was a new, good standard, seems like it would, for a very long time, just be one more thing to take into consideration.
 

Septimius

Junior Member
I don't think this is practical for most daily life activities, especially if you are in a part of the world what would end up getting their date switch in the middle of the workday.

Another excellent point! Bravo!

Hmm. I'm a programmer too, and definitely agree that it would be great not to have to worry about things like date format, time zone, etc etc. But like you said, this solves way less than hoped for. Even if there was a new, good standard, seems like it would, for a very long time, just be one more thing to take into consideration.

Universal representation is so much more important than not having to deal with an offset.
 
What it might solve, isn't worth the problems it would create. It should be light out at 12pm, and dark out at 12 am. Pretty straightforward stuff.

dst on the other hand- burn it with fire, 1 hour doesn't change enough for me to gaf.
 
If you need something to tell you when it is morning or afternoon or night in other country so you can communicate with this person, set a deadline or whatever, than you need basicaly a timezone

Why do you need a timezone for that? You can consult a table of normal working hours for that region and select a time from that. Or ask them. It's still more efficient than using a time zone because the exact time is shared by both parties. It's not "have it done at noon your time, eight o'clock my time", which is what we currently have.

Circadian rhythm works wonders if you live at the equator, but our circadian rhythms are also rhythmic, which means it continues in the rhythm that's set. Circadian rhythm, for those living far away from the equator is based more on convention than light and dark. It's actually the whole reason for DST. Sunrise is as early as 3:30, here, and as late as 9:30. That's seven hours difference. I don't follow that. I follow the clock. I follow that noon is when the sun is highest in the sky. Giving a universal time means no issues for you where you normally live, because you will be used to what used to be 9 in the morning now being 13:00. However, when you visit someone in India, you have no idea what time it is when you wake up and it is bright out, and the clock says 22:00.

That's why this is absolutely stupid. It has no benefits.

I don't get it. If you follow the clock this is even easier. If in the past 8:00pm was decided to fall on the moment the sun rises would you be following that paradigm right now? Or would you still need your clock to be set as it is now? If went into your house and changed your clocks by five hours, and you knew they were different by five hours, would you suddenly be unable to function?
 
Then accepted standards like "9 to 5" lose all meaning.

Time zones reflect how people go about their lives locally. This is about as dumb and pedantic as suggesting we measure temperatures in Kelvin.

This literally the argument for the US not converting to metric. Is that also a good idea?
 

mantidor

Member
Programmers would actually be pretty annoyed it were to change now.

Seriously.

Changing current software to adapt to this could be a nightmare for some systems.

And this doesn't change anything about international meetings anyway, someone somewhere is still going to have to wake up in the middle of the night. What international standards should have is to inform both local and UTC time, which is what they already do anyway.
 
It's the same from a coodination perspective because you still have to find out if they are in working hours or awake. Probably more confusing.
 

Kyou

Member
So you just want to rename timezones to "normal working hours for that region" ?
No see it'd be great. If you were in LA trying to figure out what people are doing in New York you'd just pull out your big chart and figure out that the sun position is roughly 3 hours ahead of LA.

It's brilliant why didn't anyone think of it before
 

jstripes

Banned
Another reason it's idiotic is because, for example, Monday would turn into Tuesday in the middle of the afternoon for people in certain areas.
 
No see it'd be great. If you were in LA trying to figure out what people are doing in New York you'd just pull out your big chart and figure out that the sun position is roughly 3 hours ahead of LA.

It's brilliant why didn't anyone think of it before

What time does the meeting start? 11:00am.

You have participants in the meeting in five different time zones. What's easier? Everyone dials in to the meeting at the time on their watch, or everyone does math to match that time to their local time zone?

Do you often wonder what people half way across the world are doing at a certain time for no reason?
 

D i Z

Member
That is not what this means. You would still live your life around the sun, the number indicating the sun's position would change. That's it.

Aaliyah said it best. Time ain't nothin' but a number. Rip in peace.

Your Horse is behind your cart. The point is to tell the positioning of the sun for us to function unilaterally within each zone. It's kind of a big deal for agriculture and the trades of goods center around that concept.
 

Dreavus

Member
I don't understand the benefits of this? Seems like you're trading the mental burden of figuring out what time it is somewhere for the mental burden of figuring out what time do people do X in a specific place, like:

• I'm in NYC and it's 3AM, can I call my colleague in London? What hours do they work?
• Jetlag will still be a thing... Instead of "I have to wait until 9PM to sleep to make it better" it becomes "At what time do I have to go to sleep to make it better?"

IDK just seems stupid man.

Exactly. you'd know what time it was anywhere, but you wouldn't know what exactly people in a given place are doing at that time without a mental conversion (likely the same conversion we currently do to account for time zones). The article is making this out to be a "burden that's lifted" but it literally just moves the problem from "what is the local time" to "what is the local time of day", which is much more imprecise.

I guess if you're a huge international business maybe it'd be useful. In that case, they could just roll with what airports currently use. It makes no sense for everyone else to adopt it.
 
This is a terrible idea. Our time keeping system has been designed around its utility to the humans who use it. It would lose most of its usefulness if the chronological norms it relates to lose all consistency across the globe in relational terms (i.e., people eat breakfast typically around 8 in the morning, lunch around noon, and dinner around 5 in the evening everywhere). Currently, if you know the local time, you can infer what those people are doing. With this change, you'd have to do a translational calculation based on location, which is absurd.
 

kswiston

Member
Another reason it's idiotic is because, for example, Monday would turn into Tuesday in the middle of the afternoon for people in certain areas.

It would be a pain in the ass for everyone not in Europe or Africa, assuming they keep the current GMT standard. Even in North America (which doesn't have it as bad as Japan or Australia), simple business hours signs become a mess.
 
LOL look at China, they have one Time Zone but the Western provinces are fucked by it

Poor implementation because they don't allow them to function on times appropriate to their locations. Just because your clock says 9:00am doesn't mean that's the second you have to show up to work. It's just a number that can still be localized, but the communication of that number is greatly eased.
 

jstripes

Banned
What time does the meeting start? 11:00am.

You have participants in the meeting in five different time zones. What's easier? Everyone dials in to the meeting at the time on their watch, or everyone does math to match that time to their local time zone?

Do you often wonder what people half way across the world are doing at a certain time for no reason?

Aside from executives and managers in national/multinational corporations, how many people have to base their lives around what's going on in different time zones?

Local time is local time, because the vast majority of people live their lives locally.
 

Platy

Member
Another reason it's idiotic is because, for example, Monday would turn into Tuesday in the middle of the afternoon for people in certain areas.

Monday turning into tuesday is "ok" ... the bigger problem would be Sunday turning into monday and friday turning into saturday .... or if tuesday is a holiday
 

Septimius

Junior Member
Why do you need a timezone for that? You can consult a table of normal working hours for that region and select a time from that. Or ask them. It's still more efficient than using a time zone because the exact time is shared by both parties. It's not "have it done at noon your time, eight o'clock my time", which is what we currently have.

People that work across different time zones need to utilize UTC better. But we already have it. It's called Universal Time. But this isn't about that. That's not what most people use the clock for.

I don't get it. If you follow the clock this is even easier. If in the past 8:00pm was decided to fall on the moment the sun rises would you be following that paradigm right now? Or would you still need your clock to be set as it is now? If went into your house and changed your clocks by five hours, and you knew they were different by five hours, would you suddenly be unable to function?

This has nothing to do with "it's just arbitrary". Let me explain this once again:

We implement Universal Time. Boom. Done. You now live by a clock where the hours are as arbitrary as always. You get up at 14:00, and you go to sleep at 4:00. You eat lunch at 17:00, and you work out at 23:00. You're right. We'd all get used to this.

You're going on vacation. Hooray, this is the time you've been waiting for. You no longer have to set your time zone! It'll be universal! Yay! So you're there. You land at 20:00. You think, great, I usually eat at 22:00, so I can get to your hotel. It's a really grey day out, and the lighting is really flat. You have no clue what time of day it is. Instead of eating, you fall asleep when you get to the hotel.

You wake up at 11:00. You think to yourself that that's really early. You look at the window and see that it's dark out. Then you have to start thinking. "Ok, I looked up that Tokyo is -7 hours from my place. That means that 11:00.. that's.. 4:00. Wait. It's.. It's really late! (You're on a +5 hour different so the clock you have now, so that means 4:00 - 5 = 23:00. It's 11 in the night.)

You now have to translate every single time when you're out traveling for it to make sense to "what time it actually is". You're right that you'd get used to the new clock at your place, but the issue is when you travel outside of that.

You even try to use UTC as a good way to work across time zones. You're now assuming everyone's awake at the hours you are, which they aren't, since we're still following our circadian rhythm. Now you have no idea what time it is to someone else. You know that it's 14:00 UTC, but you don't know if that's late or early for someone in Europe. Our clocks are relative to the sun, and this is why.

What time does the meeting start? 11:00am.

You have participants in the meeting in five different time zones. What's easier? Everyone dials in to the meeting at the time on their watch, or everyone does math to match that time to their local time zone?

Do you often wonder what people half way across the world are doing at a certain time for no reason?

There are so few people that do this. 95% of people never have to deal with these things on a daily basis, and we already have the fucking UTC for this exact purpose. It just means that you can lookup what time it is in Tokyo and realize if you're asking people to be up in the middle of the night or not. Not having a relative time makes no sense.

Oh god yes. Time zones and leap years :(

This has nothing to do with leap years or even leap seconds. This doesn't change the problem with representing time, and programs use epoch time, anyway. As a programmer, this doesn't solve that much, really.
 

liquidtmd

Banned
This is the stupidest of ideas and the article provides fuck all in terms of genuinely convincing arguments for its case
 

kswiston

Member
Monday turning into tuesday is ok ... the bigger problem would be Sunday turning into monday and friday turning into saturday .... or if tuesday is a holiday

It's a pain in the ass every day, especially from a marketing perspective. On the west coast of North America, the date change would be at the current 4pm. Pretty much every business would have to deal with date changes during normal office/store hours. Japan and Australia have it even worse.

Cheap Tuesdays at the theatre become Cheap Tuesday 19:00 to Wednesday 08:00s!
 
Aside from executives and managers in national/multinational corporations, how many people have to base their lives around what's going on in different time zones?

Local time is local time, because the vast majority of people live their lives locally.

A great deal of people have to conduct elements of their lives around different time zones. We're in an age where the internet connects people all over the globe so in addition to having family in different regions and sometimes countries, even other social groups often coordinate and communicate across distances large enough for the time of day to matter.

Literally the only convenience becomes knowing that when Joe says 11am then Jane knows it's 11am also regardless of relative locations. However in function, time conflicts due to responsibilities, schedules, and day/night cycles are still there and still have to be accounted for. Only now there is no colloquial reference. You switch from saying "That's 3am my time" which relays the point instantly to "The sun won't be up then for several hours" which is less accurate and would be annoying to transition to.
 

Joni

Member
What time does the meeting start? 11:00am. You have participants in the meeting in five different time zones. What's easier? Everyone dials in to the meeting at the time on their watch, or everyone does math to match that time to their local time zone?

If only computers would do that conversion automatically. Oh yes, they do.
 

Makonero

Member
you can literally google "what time is it in england if it's 5:00pm est" and it gives you the answer.

It takes ten seconds.

UTC is dumb.
 

Jal

Member
Something i discovered not long ago if you three finger tap on a time on a macbook it will bring up your calendar at local time.

For example: FRI 3AM PST , 12.30PM GMT
 

Kinyou

Member
There'd be a world war over who gets to keep the their normal time


People that work across different time zones need to utilize UTC better. But we already have it. It's called Universal Time. But this isn't about that. That's not what most people use the clock for.



This has nothing to do with "it's just arbitrary". Let me explain this once again:

We implement Universal Time. Boom. Done. You now live by a clock where the hours are as arbitrary as always. You get up at 14:00, and you go to sleep at 4:00. You eat lunch at 17:00, and you work out at 23:00. You're right. We'd all get used to this.

You're going on vacation. Hooray, this is the time you've been waiting for. You no longer have to set your time zone! It'll be universal! Yay! So you're there. You land at 20:00. You think, great, I usually eat at 22:00, so I can get to your hotel. It's a really grey day out, and the lighting is really flat. You have no clue what time of day it is. Instead of eating, you fall asleep when you get to the hotel.

You wake up at 11:00. You think to yourself that that's really early. You look at the window and see that it's dark out. Then you have to start thinking. "Ok, I looked up that Tokyo is -7 hours from my place. That means that 11:00.. that's.. 4:00. Wait. It's.. It's really late! (You're on a +5 hour different so the clock you have now, so that means 4:00 - 5 = 23:00. It's 11 in the night.)

You now have to translate every single time when you're out traveling for it to make sense to "what time it actually is". You're right that you'd get used to the new clock at your place, but the issue is when you travel outside of that.

You even try to use UTC as a good way to work across time zones. You're now assuming everyone's awake at the hours you are, which they aren't, since we're still following our circadian rhythm. Now you have no idea what time it is to someone else. You know that it's 14:00 UTC, but you don't know if that's late or early for someone in Europe. Our clocks are relative to the sun, and this is why.
I didnt even think about that. A universal time would really just make everything more confusing.
 
This actually seems like a decent idea. Would need to get rid of DST first, baby steps.

I need to speak to a law firm in Hawaii, I'm in Ohio and it's morning. When should I call them?

Don't most companies have some sort of daily schedule/timetable on their website? You could just look that up, the only difference would be that you wouldn't have to add +/-X to adjust for time zones.
 
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