Fighting Nazism also fights against lower tier racism. The less acceptable this very extreme racism becomes, the less the lesser racism will be acceptable. Weve done this before.
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Tom Morello re: punching Nazis (on Bill Maher)
- Thread starter legacyzero
- Start date
Fighting Nazism also fights against lower tier racism. The less acceptable this very extreme racism becomes, the less the lesser racism will be acceptable. Weve done this before.
I agree completely! I think the only place we disagree on is how to fight it.
They wouldn't, but that's not really relevant because they'll never be in a position of power in America unless America is no longer America.
Yes, I believe your suggestion was through debate (which I commented on) and shame (something they don't have)
biggersmaller
Banned
LOL - no he's not. Good lord. He gave $1 million to the Obama campaign. Made an entire documentary bent on taking Christianity down. Spends most of his 90% of the show ripping on Trump.
Give me a break.
Captin Quacker
Member
don't forget he dated a black woman too
He would have voted for Obama a third time if he could!
Krombopulos_Michael
Banned
I mean i'm fine with people punching Nazis, but the people who do have to admit that it isn't doing any good and is purely selfish. There is no good outcome to punching Nazis, it might feel good but it doesn't make the problem go away and only encourages more violence in retaliation. The only way racism can be solved is through empathy and exposure, not punches.
Let's do a quick exercise to determine the possible outcomes. Imagine a Nazi punches YOU in the face while you are just standing around doing nothing. What do you do?
A. Change your beliefs and/or become a Nazi
B. Get angry and start punching back
C. Continue to hold on to your beliefs, never changing the way you treat people, continue to spread your opinions online and offline, continue to vote for the people you were always going to vote for, just being slightly more ambiguous about it.
D. Forget about it and continue proudly promote your views as usual
Unless your answer is A, why would you think it would be A for Nazis? Maybe you get someone to go from D to C, but C is still just as bad. If you are going to punch someone, just be honest about your goal. Admit that you are willing to make things worse, because hitting people makes you feel better. Obviously I won't feel bad for Nazis, but punching them doesn't solve any problems, which is my main priority. Time and time again it has been shown that exposure to other people and engaging people with radical empathy can reduce prejudice, but that is harder and not as fun so its better to just call anyone who doesn't think punching Nazis is a solution a "Nazi coddler" and continue being selfish. There will always be some radicals who will never change, but some radicals will change and there are plenty of moderates who will change and so its worth engaging for that. It works as long as you engage people in person and use logic and compassion to show people their errors in a non-hostile way.
I know people will say things like "why is it my responsibility to engage people?" which is perfectly fair. I understand if you don't want to and won't blame you. Everyone is selfish and has flaws and doesn't always do whats right. For instance I am not a vegetarian which means I am partly responsible for the suffering animals in the meat industry endure. So it is perfectly fine to do nothing/ use violence but don't pretend you are being moral or doing what is right.
EDIT: Reading through what I have just wrote it seems like I am coming down pretty hard on people but I just really care about reducing racism and to me, punching is making everything worse and is the opposite direction we need to be going in. I think the worse part is that it might quite people and make it seem like there is less racism, but the people will come out of the woodwork on voting day and will still treat people like shit. We need to be open and let people be racist so we can recognize it and treat it like the mental illness that it is. If someone could convince me I am wrong I would be grateful.
Let's do a quick exercise to determine the possible outcomes. Imagine a Nazi punches YOU in the face while you are just standing around doing nothing. What do you do?
A. Change your beliefs and/or become a Nazi
B. Get angry and start punching back
C. Continue to hold on to your beliefs, never changing the way you treat people, continue to spread your opinions online and offline, continue to vote for the people you were always going to vote for, just being slightly more ambiguous about it.
D. Forget about it and continue proudly promote your views as usual
Unless your answer is A, why would you think it would be A for Nazis? Maybe you get someone to go from D to C, but C is still just as bad. If you are going to punch someone, just be honest about your goal. Admit that you are willing to make things worse, because hitting people makes you feel better. Obviously I won't feel bad for Nazis, but punching them doesn't solve any problems, which is my main priority. Time and time again it has been shown that exposure to other people and engaging people with radical empathy can reduce prejudice, but that is harder and not as fun so its better to just call anyone who doesn't think punching Nazis is a solution a "Nazi coddler" and continue being selfish. There will always be some radicals who will never change, but some radicals will change and there are plenty of moderates who will change and so its worth engaging for that. It works as long as you engage people in person and use logic and compassion to show people their errors in a non-hostile way.
I know people will say things like "why is it my responsibility to engage people?" which is perfectly fair. I understand if you don't want to and won't blame you. Everyone is selfish and has flaws and doesn't always do whats right. For instance I am not a vegetarian which means I am partly responsible for the suffering animals in the meat industry endure. So it is perfectly fine to do nothing/ use violence but don't pretend you are being moral or doing what is right.
EDIT: Reading through what I have just wrote it seems like I am coming down pretty hard on people but I just really care about reducing racism and to me, punching is making everything worse and is the opposite direction we need to be going in. I think the worse part is that it might quite people and make it seem like there is less racism, but the people will come out of the woodwork on voting day and will still treat people like shit. We need to be open and let people be racist so we can recognize it and treat it like the mental illness that it is. If someone could convince me I am wrong I would be grateful.
What does this have to do with anything? Trump donated to the Clinton campaign before running and we see where he obviously stands. And taking down Christianity? Really? Plenty of minorities are christians without holding hands with the batshit insane strain infecting the right.
Dreams-Visions
Member
Isaac Otherworld
Member
Being a nazi is a statement of intent to commit violence. The ideology is about the violent purge of "the other".
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Still blows my mind we're having to go against Nazis in 2017.
Dreams-Visions
Member
that we have to re-litigate this in 2017 bothers the fuck out of me. I honestly can't express my disappointment with those who want to die on the "defend nazi rights" team as if the millions of bodies of men, women and children accredited to their sickening rule is worthy of anything other than being wiped off the face of this earth for great justice.
I honestly just can't. I just. I can't. In 2017! Help me. The shit makes me want to punch a small woodland creature.
Captin Quacker
Member
ChainedMaster
Banned
I don't think anyone is willing to die for a Nazi.
Here is the deal: If you (the moderate) are to lazy to get your ass to a counter protest and scare the fascist filth off with your numbers the other, more radical forces will take your place. No "poor" Nazi will suffer punching if you shout them down and you need to shout them down because they are beyond debate. This isn't a fucking Sorkin universe.
So I guess the question I'd like to dig deeper into is how would we police those who subscribe to and espouse these types of ideologies?
Do we ban nazi speech in particular? Hate speech across the board? What does that look like? I suppose we could look to other countries to see how they enforce hate speech laws, but would that work for an anomaly such as the United States? Can a law like that even get passed in our current political climate? (Circumventing a Supreme Court ruling affirming no exceptions to the first amendment?)
And do we feel comfortable with our current government, law enforcement and power holders enforcing these things? I certainly don't. The government can be a benevolent force but it can also wield that kind of law like a club. We as a society need to handle this without the government's intervention. Because for the very reason other posters have mentioned, our government is already inherently racist in how it operates.
So we come, in my mind, to a more complex, deep question as to how to reshape both our culture and our institutions.
How many of the bureacrats, politicans and ministry officials attending the Wannsee Conference do you think personally assaulted someone?
They blamed them along with the socialists for Germany's defeat in WWI, they took their right to have arms away, stripped them of their citizenship, and then placed them in ghettos. None of this was a secret. This was conducted out in the open. But what you're trying to convince me is that people saw all that and went, "surely they won't go further than this right?"
Rumblebones
Banned
Neo Nazis don't believe in free speech. They don't believe in any laws or principles they aren't exploiting when convenient.
So, yes, they have a right to free speech, but they're also Nazis, so fuck 'em. If they get boxed up, I didn't see shit.
So, yes, they have a right to free speech, but they're also Nazis, so fuck 'em. If they get boxed up, I didn't see shit.
We literally had a war about Nazis. The whole world was involved.
callhitman
Member
I watched last night's episode. We lose if we become act as if vilonce is ok. Trump and the far right uses this against all of us. Can't give any justification. You never want to become the monsters you hate to win because that will always lead to failure.
Rumblebones
Banned
This is easy.
The Nazi is worse. What they believe in and wish to institutionalise, what they're calling likeminded scum to arms for is orders of magnitude worse than antifascists fucking them up on the street.
I don't bat an eye or lose a second sleep over Nazi scum getting punched in the face.
Also, your scenario is folly.
Nazis are inherently provocative. There's no such thing as an innocent or unthreatening Nazi. Fuck 'em.
BlackDoomShadow
Member
Yeah, I fail to see how punching a Nazi makes me as bad as a group that wants to exterminate millions for their race, culture, religion, or sexuality.
There's no legitimate justification for having Nazi beliefs. A person slapping the shit out of Nazi is not even remotely close to their level, and I can't roll my eyes harder at anyone who holds that opinion.
Someone could shoot that cockroach Richard Spencer in the face and I would say good.
Autoignition
Member
re bolded: Go fuck yourself.
Tired of the people in this country who have never had to chase Nazis out of an establishment not realizing that the only way to do so is to put hands on them. They're like parasites who come in, take over, and kill the host. Anyone in the punk/hardcore scene in the late 90s/early 00s will tell you this. You don't ask them to leave nicely. That doesn't work. It will never work. Shoot that shit with radiation, because it's cancer.
he's not a liberal about anything else either TBH as he doesn't care about economic populism and spends most of his time trashing progressives. So what is he infact if he's not a social progressive and he's not an economic progressive? He's a TV show hollywood elite who is holier than thou and has no convictions regarding anything in particular
He'd sooner agree with Sam harris about "the dangers of radical islam" in order to justify the war state these days, and he's talked about things like this in the past on the other side of his mouth and so it just proves he has no core values
Zaraki_Kenpachi
Member
If by "tan" you mean has he always been black..... Then yes, he's always been black.
DirgeExtinction
Member
So...you want us to wait until these Nazis actually do something so we can fight back? Tell me, how did that work out for Germany? Hmm?
History has already taught us that Nazis should not be allowed to mobilize and become normalized. They should NOT be ignored, unless you want another Hitler to rise up.
Worse judicially, the antifascist.
Worse morally, the Nazi.
I can confidently say that being ideologically Nazi makes someone a worse person than someone who punches Nazis. This can be demonstrated by a trivial example. You have a man, Rob. Rob is an alcoholic and tends to get into fights. Rob is also a loving husband and father to his wife and two children. Rob has spent some nights in county jail and paid more than one fine for public intoxication and aggravated battery.
Rob is absolutely a better person than Richard Spencer and I wouldn't hesitate to befriend Rob given the opportunity, despite his flaws. And he doesn't even specifically target Nazis. By induction we can surmise that a dedicated Nazi puncher is on average a better person than Rob, and thus transitively better than Nazis.
Does he identify as black? He is half white too right?
Messofanego
Banned
You do know Confederate upper brass were literally elected as Governors and Senators after the civil war, right
If you can declare war against your own country and get into power afterwards, you think neonazis can't pull the same shit?
That there exist people in the world today who actually believe that any particular skin color, ethnic background, culture, religion, or other belief system makes them somehow innately better than those who lack or do not adhere to the particular attribute which they hold in such regard, is mindnumbing. That they believe that they hold an innate mandate to exterminate those who look, speak, pray, fuck, or otherwise act or believe differently than they do, is a call to action against their beliefs. Anything else is a category error.
One cannot hold beliefs of innate superiority, that speak of rights to oppress and/or murder, without those beliefs bleeding into their actions. It is an inevitability. Violent beliefs seed violent deeds. Such beliefs must be extinguished first at a social level, unto a global one.
One cannot hold beliefs of innate superiority, that speak of rights to oppress and/or murder, without those beliefs bleeding into their actions. It is an inevitability. Violent beliefs seed violent deeds. Such beliefs must be extinguished first at a social level, unto a global one.
unpopularblargh
Member
And many of their supporters are still in power (i.e. Steve King, Jeff Sessions, Steve Miller). Literal white supremacists are in places of power, both in government and media. It's insane to me when people say "they're just trolls, they have no power to institute any change". F-off.
Are you sure he's really black? It could just be really good tan.
I'm not trying to convince you of anything, because that's actual history. The people being sent to these camps had no idea they were going to die. They even walked into the gas chambers willfully, unaware they were going to die up until the end. The vast majority of them had no idea until their last moments.
I hate when people pull this strawman. Some people have such a binary view of the world. You either 100% agree with them, or you're a nazi sympathizer. If someone thinks "Is there a way to achieve what we want without violence", some people jump straight to "You must be a nazi" instead of "You see, I think violence is justified in this instant because I think someone wearing a swastika or simply belonging to the nazi ideology is inherently violent, because that's what their entire belief system is based off. Even though there can be legal consequences for ( technically) assaulting someone he ( the one punching) is in the moral right to fight back against them. This won't solve the inherent problem or system that allowed ot people to hold those views but it will send a message to those who think that it's ok walking around in a swastika.
Vigilant Walrus
Member
For children, I cannot say. Kids cannot run away. They are totally dependent on their caretaker, so they just have to take it. I also think that both you and I could orchestrate our own scenarios that make either form of abuse seem more awful than the other. I'm uncomfortable trying to pass judgment on what is worse.
Though, If you asked me if I could choose between verbal abuse and physical abuse, I'd take being yelled horrible shit at, as opposed to being physically assaulted. Besides physically beaten, the trauma of someone actually trying to kill you is on another level compared to whatever damage words can do to you.
I'm not trying to belittle that words can hurt. But it seems unfair to me to put words on equal footing as assault. Because that means if you say something to me that I find violent, then I am allowed to physically assault you in self defense. You were being violent to me, so I beat you. That I don't agree with.
But intent to kill is not enough. I live in a neighborhood of suburban copenhagen where there is a small group of radicalized islamists- They use their democratic freedom to spew all kinds of hateful shit, and their intent is to instate Sharia zones throughout the city. Because they have a violent intent, is it okay that me and a few friends, take some clubs and put these antisemite ISIS loving fucks in a wheelchair?
You know this discussion is not really about punching nazis at all. It's about what it means to live in a free society. That's what all of this is about. You're saying (if I understand you correctly) that the existence of evil people is such a threat that they must be destroyed.
To me, that is a dangerous thinking because the US have been down this road before. If you look at all the countries that the CIA have sabotaged, overthrown, and destroyed through proxy-wars, the argumentation was always that Communism is too dangerous.
They have an intent to take over the world, so we're going to kill these people before it could happen.
I'm not saying that Communism is not dangerous. I am not saying that the US foreign policy leaders throughout the last 70+ years didn't have good reason to believe what they believed; But it was a terrible cost. And millions of people died needlessly over intent. The US overthrew peaceful democracies, reinstated dictators. Wherever there was socialism and communism, they completely destroyed.
The intent alone is not the same as doing something. And secondly, we don't know if we could have had a peaceful and well working socialist/communist state that would actually have worked. Imagine if one of those countries that was turned into a failed state, actually had succeeded? It was immensely cruel. Many countries being invaded have never recovered.
You say we should treat fascist rhetoric like it's an armed person announcing his/her intent to kill someone. Well that is grounds for killing them in self defense. So you're saying that, if you see a tenure professor at a university who spews holocaust denial, it is basically okay to execute him. His rhetoric is murder attempt in and of itself. That thinking, sounds like fascism to me.
But I think you're right. White supremacists are very sneaky. They know that they can change the optics of how neo-nazis are perceived. You just have to show nazis being being attacked enough while not attacking back, and you're changing the whole perception of neo-nazis. Just have to build up the connotation and spin those news reels of antifa attacking bystanders.
True, but if we know that peaceful counter-protests are what is effective, compared to violent protests by a very significant margin, then what is the argument for? Punching is not effective- counter-protesting through peaceful means and coming out in much much much larger number is the best course of action. Antifa is trying to point an argument that violence is the only thing that works. That's my issue. They are selling extremism as the only way, and not a insignificant part of them are doing it while wearing symbols that symbolizes some of the worst atrocities of humanity.
To stand for solidarity and freedom and liberty through numbers, like you said, is also my preference. I don't deny that political violence has worked in the past, but Antifa are not about that. Antifa makes everything worse, and I am not going to give them a thumps up for being better than white supremacists. Is the coverage of them unfair? Yes. Are they much better than the nazis? obviously. But I am not going to fucking accept political input from someone who advocates violence over hateful ideology while wearing his own hateful ideology. That they are a unstructured and diverse coalition of people wide ranging beliefs is not a defense. They are completely unacceptable as spokespeople for peace, and unlike Black Lives Matter you cannot say that their cause is rooted in fairness or justice. They are about violence and ideology. And maybe that is the nature of being a proto-stalinists, because that in itself is paradoxically close to a level of extremism we've observed in far-right totalitarianism.
I don't think myself (and others) are saying that nazism should be treated as just another opinion. I don't think that saying that no tolerance for intolerance means political violence and nothing else. All we're disagreeing about is weather or not punching is an effective tool.
You're right about that debating them gives them a larger problem. But you can drown them out and make them insignificant through counter protests that are non violent. And the people who lead these demonstrations should not be people who associate with communism- an ideology whose death count far exceeds that of the deaths of WW2.
It is absolutely unacceptable to walk in a crowd with people who spew that shit.
Being a diverse coalition of many types of people is not anymore of a defense than going with a nazi rally and defending yourself with that many people at the rally are not nazis. You're part of the violent mob. You cannot divorce yourself from that.
The problem is also as you said; You cannot argue in good faith with a fascist. Can you argue in good faith with a republican? Increasingly it is becoming less so.
Increasingly, but particularly through McConnells time, republican leadership have been about self destruction, propaganda, fear mongering, obstruction and hurting people.
You cannot reasonable argue with a most conservatives in America. What is the difference between a fascist and an American republican/conservative?
So why should you differentiate our violent response between fascists and republicans? When they are increasingly blending into the same thing; Fascism, white supremacy, conservatism, nationalism. It's one big gooey ball that sticks together.
Look at how nationalistic the US is as a society. If you look at the things that fascism and nationalism have in common; Order, Unity, Strength, Use of Propaganda, Believes their country is perfect, Only the strongest can survive (military industrial complex), obsession with wars.
The United States has become more fascist as a society. There is no doubt about it.
Is it okay to punch a republican in the face? 48 million of them voted for a racist with a fascist cabinet. A candidate who ran on hate, lies and rhetoric about other races being inferior. This is the republican party.
Can't you make the argument that Conservatism is dangerous and is about throwing out minorities? Increasingly I see less and less of a difference, and I think that violence is an appropriate response then it by logical conclusion, indirectly extends to all the people on the right who got it to this point.
This worries me. It's a slippery slope, but can you honestly tell me that outlets like Breitbart and Fox News and the millions of people who watch them, are not operating on fascist and nationalistic tones, that make them "co-conspirators" to this legitimization of violence? Is this a road we really want to go down?
I'm fine so long as people own it.
If you want to punch a Nazi, fine. More power to you. Just don't whine if you get arrested for assault. Own that shit.
Atraveller
Banned
How was this a real post?
Impromptu Nazi punching Vs. premeditating genocide?
The guy who read about all the atrocities during the war and the doctrines of aryan supremacy and thought he needed to help kick start that whole endeavor again is far far faaaaaaaar worse. Like punching a Nazi can even be argued as to whether it is good to do (it's being done in this thread), but actually being a Nazi... is there really anything worse?
Actually, I'll fire that question back to you. Is there anything worse than being a Nazi? I'm having trouble conceiving something like that. Is there anything worse than a person who revels in that ideology and would proudly carry out genocide if given the chance? Even Charles fucking Manson put a swastika on his forehead and has a neo-nazi following.
Chie Satonaka
Member
It's the same stupid ass passive fucking arguments every goddamn time this is discussed here.
bunbun777
Member
I agree with what you are saying.
What happens when a nazi who gets attacked for espousing their genocidal beliefs legally defends themselves and neutralizes their attacker? How could every nazi on the street be just an unarmed solitary glassjaw?