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Tomb Raider 2 - This is what the game should have to be close to perfection
- Thread starter The Praiseworthy
- Start date
Pinko Marx
Banned
Wasn't the platforming in the original TR games TERRIBLE? I remember the controls being absolute hogwash and one of the main complaints about the series.
IdreamofHIME
Member
No more tombs, New Lara hates tombs.
Mr. Enigma
Member
Tomb Raider was one of those games that were meant to sell strategy guides in the time right before the Internet got huge.
Hell, I had a printed out guide from GameFAQs next to me when I played Tomb Raider 3 and still got fucking lost and gave up.
Hell, I had a printed out guide from GameFAQs next to me when I played Tomb Raider 3 and still got fucking lost and gave up.
F0rneus
Tears in the rain
I really wouldn't want to be in Crystal Dynamics's shoes for sure. Most of the ideas posted here so far, would make me become the one to post a topic about how they ruined the new TR. It really reminds me of what happened with Resident Evil. You shift the focus of a series, and the fans (rightly) wants things to revert to the way things were...and you get a whole new fanbase that becomes just as pissed.
PS. More horror/fantastic elements CD. Do it.
PS. More horror/fantastic elements CD. Do it.
Darn you people who want to homogenize everything until there is nothing unique left.
I Wanna Be The Guy
U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A!
The controls are only terrible when you don't know how to play. When you get the hang of things the platforming is a godsend and the controls have a real....precision aspect to them. If you're failing a platforming challenge it's because you fucked up. It's all based around precision and has none of the automation bullshit with magnet ledges that dominates modern TR games.
Jazzkokehead
Member
Somewhat awkward controls were partially a product of the times, I suppose, what with the first few games being released prior to the DualShock. But all things being equal, they also typically allow you to take your time to line up your jumps properly and such, so it's never too frustrating.
Takamura-San
Member
Yup. Selective memory and nostalgia tends to overlook that.
Pinko Marx
Banned
Yeah, I don't know... Its been a long while since I touched the OG Tomb Raider games but I distinctly remember taking like 5 minutes to line up a jump only to be thwarted by sluggish response to my button presses and the SILLY tank controls.
The old games are cheap tho, so I may just buy TR1 to revisit and see how I fare nowadays.
For the time, I loved it. There was nothing like it on the market. I wouldn't want to go back to them now, but that doesn't mean that new, challenging platforming with modern controls couldn't be put into a new Tomb Raider.
I don't understand why, when people say, "I want a Tomb Raider like the old ones," it seems to be taken literally. Like people want tank controls in a new game or something.
This is absolute bullshit. I played through all of TR1-4 during the PS3 generation and fucking loved it. It gives you something games today don't. A sense of exploration, discovery, platforming challenge, getting lost, puzzles, sparse enemy encounters.
They were sound games and are misunderstood. The platforming doesn't suck. It's entirely logical and controllable. Sucky platforming would entail random deaths or shitty UC handholding.
Takamura-San
Member
You want uniqueness, yet want old tomb raider back....?
I Wanna Be The Guy
U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A!
It takes time to get the hang of things. There is a steep learning curve and the controls ARE stifff and tank like. But there was an exact-ness to the controls that, once you come to understand properly, allows for real precision when lining up and pulling off jumps. The controls will feel awful until you take the time to understand how they work. A bit like the 2D Oddworld games but in 3D.
ArkkAngel007
Member
The controls are misunderstood? I think I've seen it all now...
The system itself was fine, but the controls were still rather eh. Just because the player can overcome the shortcomings of it doesn't suddenly make it hot shit.
There's nothing being made like old Tomb Raider and dozens of games like new Tomb Raider.
So, yeah. What's your point?
adamantypants
Member
Came to post this. I'm loving Tomb Raider right now but it almost feels like an Uncharted mod with Lara Croft
Remember the claw your hand turns into when you do the Swan dive? Actually any number of the moves gave you a claw. Bring that back
Absolutely. They are logical. I can manipulate Lara around a level PERFECTLY. I can't say the same for characters in 9/10 of AAA games today.
Pinko Marx
Banned
I think you're fluffing the controls up to be more than what they are. The more that I think about it the more I remember disliking the controls.
I remember tap, tap, tapping the D-pad to fine-tune the line ups on my jumps so I won't have to repeat a segment over again. That isn't my idea of good platforming. But once again, I'll probably pick up TR1 in the near future and see if my memory serves me right.
Shit like this isn't my idea of a good time. I don't want to have to contort my hand.
Majmun
Member
Yeah, game used the same tank ontrols as in the Resident Evil games.
I never had trouble with them
ArkkAngel007
Member
That doesn't mean that the controls are great. That's like saying Resident Evil's/Dino Crisis' controls were amazing, or the platforming in LBP and Tearaway is great because the player eventually acclimates and learns how to overcome the issues.
I love the PS1 Tomb Raider titles and haven't played the reboot, but that's just praise I don't feel it deserves. To be fair, as others have mentioned, it was a product of its time.
One thing the critics may not understand is that the controls and Lara's movement meshed with the level design perfectly. Every traversible part of the game was a 4x4 block. Lara moved in a stiff way to compliment these 4 panes. You knew exactly what you could jump on or not. It was flawless and a very pure game.
Today I don't feel that precision in most games. It's like I'm fighting against animations in addition to controlling the character.
Today I don't feel that precision in most games. It's like I'm fighting against animations in addition to controlling the character.
I still need to play through all the REs. I imagine as a TR fan I'll feel right at home.
2.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
They should have an MGS3 survival system instead of health packs. And you should have multiple bars. So, you can use the system to regenerate dead bars, otherwise, if a bar is partially depleted, it'll regenerate on its own. Like the original Resistance game.
I'm with F0rneus: More horror. More mystery. More creepy shit. More scares. Take the shooting down a bit, embrace exploration, but make it terrifying and wonderful in equal measure. For every beautifully decrepit tomb you uncover, there is something equally sinister about it. This is what frustrated me most about the ending:
I don't want the shorts and the tank top. It is silly. If she's in the desert, she should wear clothes that an explorer would logically wear in the desert. Same if it's a jungle, arctic environment, whatever.
I'm not averse to tougher platforming and puzzles, but I love TReboot as it is. And no, I did not mind killing all of the Solarii.
I'm with F0rneus: More horror. More mystery. More creepy shit. More scares. Take the shooting down a bit, embrace exploration, but make it terrifying and wonderful in equal measure. For every beautifully decrepit tomb you uncover, there is something equally sinister about it. This is what frustrated me most about the ending:
They build up the creepy ass threat of the Oni so much, but when you actually face them, it's like just fighting standard enemies a lot of the time. Before I actually fought them, I was much, much more terrified of coming face to face with them.
I don't want the shorts and the tank top. It is silly. If she's in the desert, she should wear clothes that an explorer would logically wear in the desert. Same if it's a jungle, arctic environment, whatever.
I'm not averse to tougher platforming and puzzles, but I love TReboot as it is. And no, I did not mind killing all of the Solarii.
Underworld, I believe.
I Wanna Be The Guy
U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A!
Very true. They just have a bit of a steep learning curve, but once you understand how the controls work you have a real sense of control and precision. Far more than any Crystal Dynamics Tomb Raider game. Most people just don't get past the steep learning curve part. I mean that's why the Crystal Dynamics games have so much automation and magnetised ledges. Because the controls just don't offer the same level of control and precision that the old games do, even if they are much easier to pick up and play for newcomers.
SymbiantXenos
Member
Pre reboot TR2 was my favourite of the series.
As a TR fan you'll feel better. There's no jumping.
I think the problem with TR's platforming (which was good for it's time but really rough to get into today) is the graphics making the ledges hard to see, not fully understanding the jumping mechanics and the camera+control combo.
Most of that can be updated without having it being automated like in most platformers which many confuse for better control. How can a game have better control if it is doing most of the platforming for you?
There's a difference between automated control and good controls. A TR game should be made with good controls not be automated by just pushing the control stick in a single direction and only ever pressing x for those guaranteed jumps.
+puzzles
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
I find it very interesting you'd criticize others for selective memory considering you're hating on tank controls and a grid layout for a game you're forgetting had limitations from the standpoints of performance, precedent, and to some extent controllers. The combat is harder to defend as the very concept lacked imagination.
TR2 had incredible atmosphere supported by challenging gameplay, but I don't think perfect is a word I'd use for it. Was this the one that allowed saving anywhere?
I agree so much with the OP.
Granted the reboot is like a prequel to the series...so what was missing from the series is fine. The next TR should be like or close to whats mentioned in the OP.
I wouldnt mind the open world that was mentioned recently....but bring back some of the classic TR elements. Although...I hated pulling levers under water....lol. Currently playing Underworld....its in my backlog rotation and I'm near the end of the reboot.
Granted the reboot is like a prequel to the series...so what was missing from the series is fine. The next TR should be like or close to whats mentioned in the OP.
I wouldnt mind the open world that was mentioned recently....but bring back some of the classic TR elements. Although...I hated pulling levers under water....lol. Currently playing Underworld....its in my backlog rotation and I'm near the end of the reboot.
Tearaway's my only point of reference having played the demo recently. It is incomparable because what can/can't be jumped on is not as clear as Lara's positioning on a 4x4 block in her world. You can set Lara up perfectly on any part of the game world (walk button helps here). Yo cannot do that in Tearaway for sure.
That's the key really. Newcomers. They need that low barrier of entry point or it will affect sales (or at least that's what they percieve...TR used to be wuite the mainstream hit of course).
The issues I have with TRs new direction can be transferred as a complaint to the direction games have taken in general since the last generation. Too much on-rails, not enough figuring out. Level design has pretty much halted it seems.
Yes.
TR1- Save only at defined points.
TR2- Save anywhere.
TR3- Collect crystals, use them to save anywhere (mixture of both). (Save anywhers on PC I think).
TR4&5- Save anywhere.
I Wanna Be The Guy
U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A!
I think one of the most frustrating things about the reboot was that the jumping actually felt really good. The game gave you some really good mid-air control for steering jumps but it never gets put to good use because the platforming is so basic and straight forward. The controls present in the reboot would have actually allowed for some really good challenging platforming gameplay but Crystal Dynamics didn't want anything to do with that kind of gameplay which is a real shame.
F0rneus
Tears in the rain
They should have an MGS3 survival system instead of health packs. And you should have multiple bars. So, you can use the system to regenerate dead bars, otherwise, if a bar is partially depleted, it'll regenerate on its own. Like the original Resistance game.
I'm with F0rneus: More horror. More mystery. More creepy shit. More scares. Take the shooting down a bit, embrace exploration, but make it terrifying and wonderful in equal measure. For every beautifully decrepit tomb you uncover, there is something equally sinister about it. This is what frustrated me most about the ending:
They build up the creepy ass threat of the Oni so much, but when you actually face them, it's like just fighting standard enemies a lot of the time. Before I actually fought them, I was much, much more terrified of coming face to face with them.
I don't want the shorts and the tank top. It is silly. If she's in the desert, she should wear clothes that an explorer would logically wear in the desert. Same if it's a jungle, arctic environment, whatever.
I'm not averse to tougher platforming and puzzles, but I love TReboot as it is. And no, I did not mind killing all of the Solarii.
My man. I'd also love a MGS3-style system. I'm a bit of a whore for character building, even if it's nothing too involved, and I'd like to see RE4 style of health bar building with items you find. Add in, Macgyver-like surgery on the fly, and...Hnnng.
I really thought that the leaked artwork from the game meant that the freaky ghost/mutant/monster things with scythe arms, or the little ghost girl would be in there. Just...give me stuff like that. I didn't mind the g̶a̶n̶a̶d̶o̶s̶ Solarii though, because they felt like crazy horror cannibals torturers.
I had a dream once, after watching The Fog on Blu-Ray that Lara went to a fishing village to find some magical axe or whatever, and the Draugr from Skyrim lived in the sea and kind of popped out at night to collect/kill people. And basically under the town, there was this massive Nordic crypt filled with zombies...that happened to be Draugr from Skyrim....But whatever. That was cool as hell. Like a ghost town, emptied out from people...while Lara explores an undergrown centuries-old graveyard filled with Undead nordic warriors and other creatures. That would be cool as shit IMO. Make it dark as hell, Fulci-style (Zombi 2, House by the Cemetary) by having them undead be brutal, brutal killers, and fill that place with bloody, twisted remains and horrific rituals...but keep some sort of antique, forbidden beauty angle to the place...Shit...I really want this.
I don't want a fun, globe-trotting feel. I want darkness, and despair in a isolated place.
You can somewhat make this accusation about some of the later games, but this isn't the case with TR2 at all, it had:
Dynamic Lighting (one of the very first games with it, and it made a lot of use of it).
Much more detailed models.
Vehicles.
More levels, many of which are larger than even the bigger levels in the original, and also have more visual polish.
Other technical steps forward like outdoor areas.
Those are some pretty big things for a sequel made in around a year, especially for a 3D game made in 1997 when many of these things had been done very little.
Also TR2's soundtrack is almost entirely original outside ambiance and there's more tracks than in the first game, so I'm not sure what you're talking about there.
The tank aspect is. However, whether it was intentional or not (and a recent interview I've seen with someone who used to work at Core suggests it was), being based around a consistent framework that doesn't need to arbitrarily modify your character's capabilities to work (and that a player can fully learn and master over time) is very forward-thinking, and something just about every modern action-adventure outside of Mirror's Edge could learn from.
I didn't notice that but I'll look out for it when the Definitive Edition hits a good price.
Link to interview? Sounds very interesting.
I'd say Portal is in that category as well.
These are all great, especially health packs. I played Tomb Raider as I was coming off of The Last of Us, and the auto-recovery was extremely jarring.
I would also like to add that Lara should be able to stand on her feet for more than 5 minutes at a time. Tomb Raider (2013) didn't exactly put you in the role of an empowering female lead; I just watched her fall on her face, get punched in the face, and get impaled in the gut/face for 15 hours.
I would also like to add that Lara should be able to stand on her feet for more than 5 minutes at a time. Tomb Raider (2013) didn't exactly put you in the role of an empowering female lead; I just watched her fall on her face, get punched in the face, and get impaled in the gut/face for 15 hours.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
Man, we are syncing up so much on this.
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
Ah ok, yeah. I thought the flow in TR1 was just right, which was a shame because I found the locales, length, and atmosphere more memorable in 2 for the most part. TR2 started the series into the territory of shooting hundreds (well, dozens, it just felt like hundreds) of dudes, which was another criticism I had.
I Wanna Be The Guy
U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A!
You know what's funny? Before the reboot people were complaining about the Legend/Anniversary/Underworld trilogy having no real death animations and just fading the screen to black instead. Remember the cool animations when being impaled on spikes in the original games? People wanted stuff like that back. Now people complain it's too much...
jhmtehgamr20xx
Banned
I am so in love with dat ass.
grandwizard
Member
This mirrors a lot of my wishes. I don't think they are going back to confident, capable Lara any time soon, but I still have hope that they can bring back tombs, puzzles, exploration and isolation. Those things defined the old Tomb Raider series for me, and I always thought the combat parts were mind numbing filler to get to more pure exploration and traversal. It makes me really sad that they chased the mainstream Uncharted audience and got rid of or maginalized all those elements that made old TR great and loaded it with third person cover based shooting, because we clearly needed more of that in this industry.
It's actually kind of a funny source as it's related to a Pop Fiction about the "nude raider" rumors, but I found it really interesting in how it seems to confirm that the aspects of the original TR game's mechanics I consider to hold up were deliberate and not just Core getting lucky:
http://www.gametrailers.com/videos/h9be13/pop-fiction-nude-raider--extended-interview
Whats funny about this pic is Nate is running off the screen like ah hah!!
While the number of enemies was too damn high in 2 (3 toned it down but had a shit load in the Nevada levels), at least they retained the level exploration, puzzles and such.
Also 2 had quite a unique aspect for its time. In the Himalaya levels. Shoot the natives and they'll bother you for the rest of level. Leave them be and they'll assist you against the enemies. 3 has a similar concept in the Nevada prison level where you are weaponless and freeing the other prisoners is the only way to kill the enemies.