Support NeoGAF

[KingFire]

i don't make it a problem of indie vs blockbusters..i've loved FTL this year as much as i loved dark souls..and i despise dear esther as much i despise all the run-of-the-mill shooters with scripted cinematics and boring gameplay.

it's all about gameplay,if someone gives me that,then it's a copy sold,if there's good production values too,well it's even more good but gameplay has priority

You and I are on the same boat. I don't even remember the last blockbuster I bought, and when I buy, I buy them used.

But the problem is there is an ocean of blockbusters-whores, and that needs to go away if you want the focus to be on gameplay

 

[CassidyIzABeast]

Consumer rights; I know those might seem confusing when you're used to having none.

Selling used isn't in the Bill of Consumer Rights

 

[TangoAlphaLima]

Which will? Give me an example of game from the 90s would make significant revenue if released today unaltered?

Super Mario All-Stars Wii. It was released almost 20 years after it was originally released, with essentially no changes to the game(s). Totally sold out here in the U.S. I can't find any sales figures on it here, but it sold 308,000 copies its first week in Japan.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2010/10/27/super-mario-all-stars-tops-japanese-sales-charts

Your Citizen Kane Collector's Edition Blu-Ray? It's currently the 22,089th best seller in the "Movies & TV" category on Amazon.

 

[GravityMan]

I was always wary of TotalBiscuit. Glad he finally showed his true colors with this ridiculous argument of his.

 

[Version 3.0]

You know, PC games have had activation keys for fucking ages now, waaaay back when they had never even stepped foot in digital distribution platforms.

Yeah. And you can buy them used on eBay, and those CD keys still work just fine. I just bought a few recently. Those keys are anti-piracy devices, not anti-consumer devices. There's a huge difference.

 

[unbias]

You and I are on the same boat. I don't even remember the last blockbuster I bought, and when I buy, I buy them used.

But the problem is there is an ocean of blockbusters-whores, and that needs to go away if you want the focus to be on gameplay

Cant be that many if we are already seeing industry contraction.

 

[Version 3.0]

reselling games, basic human right

Well, it has stood untested for all of human history until now.

 

[unbias]

Selling used isn't in the Bill of Consumer Rights

Doesn't matter, if enough consumers view it as a right, the market will treat it like a right, due to the cost of removing that "right". Or they wont and will end up contracting the market(even more).

 

[jmdajr]

Look where it's gotten us though. A lot of fighters and platformers were middleware.

And middleware's pretty much gone now.

In order to save cost cancel Shenmue 3 immediately

 

[Ace Harding]

it's a matter of who has the hardest resolution...the industry to try its hardest to take as much money as possible from their customers,or the average casual customer that find itself in front of halo 5 and must decide if they want to buy it or not.
counting that these same average customers are the ones that are passively accepting any kind of bullshit the publishers are throwing at them in the last 6 or more years,and said publisher are he ones who demonstrated many times how are fucking attached to our money,i'm not putting my bet on the costumers.

i may be wrong,no doubt..the fact is that i don't want to take the risk,especially if i don't really get anything in return (as it's the case in this situation,as i said,the industry is yet again trying to use the customers to solve its own problems)

Its not about "betting on the consumers." Its about an efficient market.

That gamer standing in front of Halo 5 might be willing to pay $60 with no option to sell it back later, because Halo 5 is an awesome game. Microsoft wins!

But hang on - because this gamer's budget is finite, that $60 price tag comes at the expense of other games he can't buy because he has $60 less to spend. Not every game can get away with costing $60 - that's why hardly any of them actually do. The market can't bear every game costing $60, or all but a few games will be miserable failures. That's why prices will adjust to demand. Not because Microsoft wants to be nice all of a sudden.

Taking used games out of the equation doesn't change this. If suddenly every game cost us $60, we'd buy less games. Many more games would lose shit-tons of money. More companies would go out of business.

My trust in game prices coming down with the elimination of used games isn't trusting Microsoft to reduce prices, its trusting the market to bring prices of certain games down to adjust.

People might pay $60 for Halo 5, but they sure as shit won't be paying $60 for GRID 3 without used games.

 

[KingFire]

And? I think you are missing my point.

I was talking about a Valve-like business model. No more used games with customer satisfaction.

 

[Shai-Tan]

Consumer rights; I know those might seem confusing when you're used to having none.

The body of law you're referring to relies on a precedent set for resale of physical products. If you're going to rely on precedent then it's already been determined that this doesn't apply to digital software products sold on license. there are additional precedents in some regions that protect the consumer by allowing limited refunds and returns rather than giving the consumer an unlimited right to return or resell

 

[Ploid 3.0]

What makes him think the price of games will get cheaper just because Amazon and Steam sell them dirt cheap during sales? PS+? I kinda doubt prices will go down when there are no used games, there are no royalties for PC other than steam and since the competition is there I have a feeling Steam is flexible on it's royalties for sales.

 

[StudioTan]

Super Mario All-Stars Wii. It was released almost 20 years after it was originally released, with essentially no changes to the game(s). Totally sold out here in the U.S. I can't find any sales figures on it here, but it sold 308,000 copies its first week in Japan.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2010/10/27/super-mario-all-stars-tops-japanese-sales-charts

Your Citizen Kane Collector's Edition Blu-Ray? It's currently the 22,089th best seller in the "Movies & TV" category on Amazon.

Exactly, one of the biggest franchises of all time yet the number of sales pales compared to movies. Star Wars on Blu-ray sold 1.5 million in the first week.

 

[Majukun]

Its not about "betting on the consumers." Its about an efficient market.

That gamer standing in front of Halo 5 might be willing to pay $60 with no option to sell it back later, because Halo 5 is an awesome game. Microsoft wins!

But hang on - because this gamer's budget is finite, that $60 price tag comes at the expense of other games he can't buy because he has $60 less to spend. Not every game can get away with costing $60 - that's why hardly any of them actually do. The market can't bear every game costing $60, or all but a few games will be miserable failures. That's why prices will adjust to demand. Not because Microsoft wants to be nice all of a sudden.

Taking used games out of the equation doesn't change this. If suddenly every game cost us $60, we'd buy less games. Many more games would lose shit-tons of money. More companies would go out of business.

My trust in game prices coming down with the elimination of used games isn't trusting Microsoft to reduce prices, its trusting the market to bring prices of certain games down to adjust.

People might pay $60 for Halo 5, but they sure as shit won't be paying $60 for GRID 3 without used games.

but the "we lower the price if it doesn't sell" already happens NOW.
why should i give up my right to sell games to have something that already happens?

 

[KingFire]

What makes him think the price of games will get cheaper just because Amazon and Steam sell them dirt cheap during sales? PS+? I kinda doubt prices will go down when there are no used games, there are no royalties for PC other than steam and since the competition is there I have a feeling Steam is flexible on it's royalties for sales.

Yeah prices will probably not go down due to the escalating cost of making AAA games. But I think we will see sales more frequently (Steam like situation).

Of course this is totally from my ass and nobody knows except the suits at MS and Sony.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

They weren't the exact same versions. Money was spent to upgrade the graphics to make them acceptable to newer audiences. Are you people really going to argue that movies don't have a much longer tail than games? Citizen Kane is a classic and is still making money for the studio on Blu-ray. Who's buying Pong?

I love how you say they aren't the same versions and then use Citizen Kane on blu-ray (an updated HD version of an old movie) as an example of how movies still make studios money.

 

[shakin_haitian]

Even though Oldsmobile went out of business, my mom can still drive hers around.

 

[Pyronite]

Very good, even-headed video. Thanks for the heads up on it.

 

[Wickerbasket]

The body of law you're referring to relies on a precedent set for resale of physical products. If you're going to rely on precedent then it's already been determined that this doesn't apply to digital software products sold on license. there are additional precedents in some regions that protect the consumer by allowing limited refunds and returns rather than giving the consumer an unlimited right to return or resell

EU has already ruled that I'm allowed to resell my digital content.

I'm not sure how they're going to deal with the price fixing system MS have in mind, but I doubt they're going to be too happy about it.

 

[StudioTan]

I love how you say they aren't the same versions and then use Citizen Kane on blu-ray (an updated HD version of an old movie) as an example of how movies still make studios money.

Citizen Kane was always in HD.

 

[unbias]

I was talking about a Valve-like business model. No more used games with customer satisfaction.

Because consumers chose it. Used games still exist in the PC realm though(just not near as many, but never really was a large market for it). That is a very important distinction with market trends and demand. Force a market to go in a way that consumers are not wanting it to go, and you will financially contract your business.

 

[Woggerman]

Once again though, no one is saying that there shouldn't be a secondary market for games. The argument is should the publishers get some of the profits from that. So many posts are acting like MS said they don't want used games at all. This is not the case. We are all arguing whether or not publishers and system sellers should get some of the money from that secondary market.

 

[Syriel]

That movies can earn money for the studios for decades whereas even marginally significant video game revenues can dry up in a couple of years, sometimes months.

That is true for a limited amount of movies.

It is also true for a limited amount of games.

Really though, it is a LOT easier for a publisher to resell an old game (slap it into an emulator front end and go!) than it is for a studio to restore a film print and create a HD remaster.

 

[KingFire]

Cant be that many if we are already seeing industry contraction.

As far as I remember, industry contraction happens at the end of each generation. So I think we can't surely say that the AAA market is collapsing without studying more concrete data.

 

[Storm360]

Private resale fees would literally ruin my life, so I'm not gonna support this, I make most of my money from reselling games, although typically older games, Employment is not a option where I live, as I'd end up paying most of the paycheck in traveling.

Ironic he mentions abandonware sites too... I guess piracy is better then according to him.

I also have NEVER been pushed into a used game, even in the few times they've mentioned it, all I've had to do is reply "no" and thats the end of it, I've also seen plenty of gaming merchandise

But I guess its easy to be anti-consumer when you get everything handed to you by developers and publishers

 

[Silphonica]

Cars, Second Hand Clothes, CD, DVD, Kitchens, what have you. Give me some examples when did this happen in history. Everyone who can't afford a new game buys a used game and then the consumer that bought the new game in the first hand has new money (from his sale) to actually buy more new games.

DVD's actually costs 5-10€, watching a movie in the cinema costs 6-12€ - buying a new game costs 60€. Do I miss something? Avatar cost a lot of money. The risk was taken because they believed in it. If it would have sold only 1m worldwide it would have been very very bad for everyone actually participating in it. So? Where is your point my dearest "The Devil's Halibut"?

First of all, it's not as clear cut as that. I'm sure you've seen images along the lines of people taking in years worth of memories to gamestop and getting back $15 for it. That's because for every say 3 games sold, if the user was to buy another game, it would be one game. All that extra money goes to gamestop. You'll also notice I said "if". You're only assuming that the money gained will be used to buy more games. Which the very likelyhood is, thats only half true. More often than not people trade in for cash, not instore credit.

For the latter part of your post. Movies have a larger audience despite having mutiple revenue streams outlined in the OP.

 

[troushers]

I wonder how movies and music developed those lucrative alternate revenue streams. I suppose movie makers just probably made bigger and bigger budget movies, then God just reached down and miracled an after market into existence for them.

Nope, no conclusions to be drawn there.

I once made a living selling peanuts to a group of retailers. They worked their butts off, and most of them went out of business, but the guy left had peanut selling down to a fine art. Of course, they were my peanuts, so i resented his greed. If only i could ruin him and take his business

 

[rezuth]

Before I enter this discussions with his views upon this I want to know how much he makes a year and how many of the games he shows are given to him for free. Anyone know a quick number? If he gets free games he should not be able to join this discussion.

 

[StudioTan]

That is true for a limited amount of movies.

It is also true for a limited amount of games.

Really though, it is a LOT easier for a publisher to resell an old game (slap it into an emulator front end and go!) than it is for a studio to restore a film print and create a HD remaster.

Limited amount of movies? If I go out to buy a Blu-ray right now I can guarantee you the majority of the movies available for sale are older than 10 years.

 

[Acorn]

Before I enter this discussions with his views upon this I want to know how much he makes a year and how many of the games he shows are given to him for free. Anyone know a quick number? If he gets free games he should not be able to join this discussion.

He is frequently given press copies to the point of moaning when he doesn't.

 

[Ace Harding]

but the "we lower the price if it doesn't sell" already happens NOW.
why should i give up my right to sell games to have something that already happens?

I'm not saying you should. If you like that flexibility, don't buy a console that doesn't allow you to sell your games.

I'm only saying that I disagree with the premise that game prices won't come down measurably if the used game market is eliminated. I firmly believe they will, because they have to. As someone that rarely buys used games, I'd happily buy into an ecosystem that lets me buy more games closer to release, or more games for less money.

I would also support eliminating the profit margins retailers receive for used game sales to support the game industry, all else being equal.

I also support the notion that publishers and developers need to start being realistic about game budgets and stop wasting resources on shit that isn't going to net returns.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

Citizen Kane was always in HD.

Then you're using an exception as an example instead of the rule. Most movies that were updated to Blu-Ray needed work done to make them HD just as the old games got HD upgraded.

 

[unbias]

As far as I remember, industry contraction happens at the end of each generation. So I think we can't surely say that the AAA market is collapsing without studying more concrete data.

The game industry has had consistent growth since the PS2 era, so I'm not sure what you are basing this off of. We have literally seen a 25% drop off in the game industry(last year), that isn't historic norms. Dont need more studying to see that a contraction is already happening(competition from PC, handheld, iOS/Android and ect).

 

[KingFire]

Because consumers chose it. Used games still exist in the PC realm though(just not near as many, but never really was a large market for it). That is a very important distinction with market trends and demand. Force a market to go in a way that consumers are not wanting it to go, and you will financially contract your business.

Nobody chose Steam when it first came out. It was a buggy piece of shit and still remember reading walls of text of complains. Nonetheless, Valve kept pushing it and with their risky approach to things it succeeded. Nobody chooses pure DRM except suits.

The PC used game market was relatively healthy as far as I remember ( although I don't have concrete evidence to support this claim my apologias). It is relatively non-existent today, yet people kinda accept that.

 

[Tacitus_]

I wonder how movies and music developed those lucrative alternate revenue streams. I suppose movie makers just probably made bigger and bigger budget movies, then God just reached down and miracled an after market into existence for them.

Nope, no conclusions to be drawn there.

Well when they introduce DLC as an alternative revenue stream, people scream bloody murder.

Nobody chose Steam when it first came out. It was a buggy piece of shit and still remember reading walls of text of complains. Nonetheless, Valve kept pushing it and with their risky approach to things it succeeded. Nobody chooses pure DRM except suits.

The PC used game market was relatively healthy as far as I remember ( although I don't have concrete evidence to support this claim my apologias). It is relatively non-existent today, yet people kinda accept that.

Cd keys pretty much eliminated selling back games to stores, especially with multiplayer games.

 

[Mr.Wreckless]

I have no idea where i can go to buy used CDs or DVDs but there are 5 Gamestops within a 7 mile radius of me.

 

[Eliciel]

First of all, it's not as clear cut as that. I'm sure you've seen images along the lines of people taking in years worth of memories to gamestop and getting back $15 for it. That's because for every say 3 games sold, if the user was to buy another game, it would be one game. All that extra money goes to gamestop. You'll also notice I said "if". You're only assuming that the money gained will be used to buy more games. Which the very likelyhood is, thats only half true. More often than not people trade in for cash, not instore credit.

For the latter part of your post. Movies have a larger audience despite having mutiple revenue streams outlined in the OP.

If I am just assuming, then you and everybody else who's stating his opinion is doing just the same thing, too. Of course all of my arguments are assumptions. As well as the idea of "shutting down the used games markets will bring discount sales to consoles." That's as much an assumption as my idea was declared an assumption by you.

So where do we meet now? What's the middle of the road here? Do we cope with new games only or should we try to turn things around in the best interest for gamers? What's the win-win situation here? I for my part can state one thing for sure out of pure intuition: The win-win situation is NOT DRM period.

 

[The Jason]

Music

• Multiple recurring revenue streams
• Royalties - Pandora, Spotify, Radio Play
• Concerts and live shows
• Merchandise
• CD sales aren't that relevant, more of a marketing tool
• No cost to Studio once music is released

Movies

• Similar to music
• Most of the time money made back entirely at the box office
• DVD/Blu Ray
• Rental
• Royalties - On Demand, Amazon/Netflix/Hulu
• TV Syndication
• No cost to Studio once movie is released

Used Car

• Inherent Risk
• Wear and tear
• Degradation of performance and safety
• No post-purchase cost for manufacturer
• Not a luxury item

Video Games

• Stores push used over new - Making massive profit margins
• Often have to go to specialized stores for used CDs/DVDs. Used games in mainstream stores
• Good as New, no wear and tear (resurfacing)
• post purchase upkeep by Devs/Publishers (servers, patches, customer support)
• Used Sales keep multiplayer communities alive for users, but the associated costs aren't being equitably repaid
• Online Pass/DLC used to monetize used copies
• Microsoft's policy isn't necessarily anti-consumer. They are aimed at Gamestop, not at consumer, but consumer is still affected.
• Retailers have been bullying Devs/Publishers for years into pre-order exclusives, price fixing (forcing digital prices to stay equal to retailer see: base prices on Steam, PSN, eShop)
• Policies are looking to diversify revenue streams much like movies or music

Comparisons to the PC Market

• Used games essentially don't exist anymore. You buy digital or retail, both generally activate to services online
• Buying an old game, just digital codes (see: GOG, Steam, etc)
• The result is more money going directly to Devs/Publishers, resulting in ridiculously low sales prices
• Even new games are affected like this, seeing massive discounts

Random

• People who sell their used games are able to purchase more games as a result of that
  -Concedes the point, but goes on to say that most people who do that will only stay in the used ecosystem in order to save more money
• Publishers see high profit margins for DLC
  One player buys DLC, trades copy in, DLC stays on account. Then next player is forced to buy the DLC again
• No used titles in the future, going to an all digital market. Examples: iOS, Steam, Books, music, etc.
• Very strange for Microsoft to take the negative PR now since we have a digital future
• Fallacy where shutting down used games will cause more expensive games. Source: Steam

Its funny, none of his points address why ownership of games should any different than other media. Because publishers dont make enough money? Wow, genius.

I have a friend who makes music and only gets money from itunes/cd sales, and yet his work can be shared, sold, whatever. He already made the money off the product, and the person who now owns the CD can do what they want with it.

 

[TangoAlphaLima]

Exactly, one of the biggest franchises of all time yet the number of sales pales compared to movies. Star Wars on Blu-ray sold 1.5 million in the first week.

Do you realize how many billions George Lucas made on Star Wars? Yet you're defending game publishers because they don't make quite as many billions?

No, SMB All-Stars probably has not outsold Star Wars on Blu-Ray. Not many things have. The install base of Blu-Ray players to Nintendo Wii consoles is probably widely skewed in its favor as well.

If this somehow justifies used game DRM to justify further profit-seeking at the cost of the consumer for you, then fine, I'm not going to change your mind. But don't act like the video game industry is so fragile and unable to cash in yet again on longstanding franchises for which significant profits have already been made.

 

[StudioTan]

Then you're using an exception as an example instead of the rule. Most movies that were updated to Blu-Ray needed work done to make them HD just as the old games got HD upgraded.

No, you're missing the point. Movies filmed on celluloid already have a greater theoretical "resolution" than current HD. Obviously film doesn't have resolution, it's not digital, but current "HD" cannot resolve all the detail available on film. If they clean up a movie they're doing so to remove scratches and dirt, that's not remotely the same thing as redoing the graphics in a game to update it to modern standards.

Do you realize how many billions George Lucas made on Star Wars? Yet you're defending game publishers because they don't make quite as many billions?

No, SMB All-Stars probably has not outsold Star Wars on Blu-Ray. Not many things have. The install base of Blu-Ray players to Nintendo Wii consoles is probably widely skewed in its favor as well.

If this somehow justifies used game DRM to justify further profit-seeking at the cost of the consumer for you, then fine, I'm not going to change your mind. But don't act like the video game industry is so fragile and unable to cash in yet again on longstanding franchises for which significant profits have already been made.

The only point I'm making is that taken as a whole movies and music can keep producing more revenue than gaming as a whole. The fact that people are arguing otherwise just leads me to believe that they are not interested in rational debate.

 

[unbias]

Nobody chose Steam when it first came out. It was a buggy piece of shit and still remember reading walls of text of complains. Nonetheless, Valve kept pushing it and with their risky approach to things it succeeded. Nobody chooses pure DRM except suits.

The PC used game market was relatively healthy as far as I remember ( although I don't have concrete evidence to support this claim my apologias). It is relatively non-existent today, yet people kinda accept that.

Bold - I'm not sure how you don't understand why this is different. You were not forced to use steam, unless you wanted Valve games. If nobody wanted to use steam, steam wouldnt be around. You really are not making much sense here.

As for the rest, PC never had a large market for PC games, I'm not sure why you think this. Even back in the early 90's used games was never a business venture, it was just additive to what you already had. The reason used games are near non existent today is because PC market for used games just wasn't there. The demand was to low to maintain any semblance of profit. All you have to do is go back when you were younger and walking through funcoland to remember how small the PC used market was. Hell, Chips and Bits didnt even deal in used pc games.

 

[Ziltoid]

The whole "think of thr developers!" arguments is stupid. If devs and publishers can't turn around because used games exist they should probably scale their own costs down a tad. Amirox's post earlier hits the nail on the head.

 

[seventynine]

I haven't bought a used game in years and while I understand people's objection to this current problem for me its become a moral issue when so many studios have closed down this past generation and when people enjoy these games without the proceeds getting back to the people who made the game. That's why I buy new, at any rate.

Of course there could be a better way. Trading licences for digital store credit. I used to think that the platform holders would bring in retailers to their own digital stores to foster healthy competition to make digital purchases more palatable.

 

[Version 3.0]

Limited amount of movies? If I go out to buy a Blu-ray right now I can guarantee you the majority of the movies available for sale are older than 10 years.

1. I'm not sure that's true, but a large amount, certainly.
2. There are literally thousands not there at all.
3. What does this have to do with the topic at hand?

You continue to ignore my posts, I can only assume because you can't answer them. What bearing does revenue potential have on consumer rights? I can re-sell any item down to ones that cost nothing. Literally, nothing. Why should games making less money than movies matter at all?

 

[Fragamemnon]

Nobody chose Steam when it first came out. It was a buggy piece of shit and still remember reading walls of text of complains. Nonetheless, Valve kept pushing it and with their risky approach to things it succeeded. Nobody chooses pure DRM except suits.

The PC used game market was relatively healthy as far as I remember ( although I don't have concrete evidence to support this claim my apologias). It is relatively non-existent today, yet people kinda accept that.

Used PC games were never ever that big, and started falling off the cliff around 1999-2000 or so when online CD KEY checks for multiplayer games came into play. The only real market was consumer to consumer and that was very small.

Steam got its legitimacy around in the 2007-ish timeframe and Bioshock followed by the Orange Box and finally entered the started the current " post-World of Warcraft" era.

 

[Syriel]

Limited amount of movies? If I go out to buy a Blu-ray right now I can guarantee you the majority of the movies available for sale are older than 10 years.

I was speaking of old titles that can push sales. To address your point though:

Most of those Blu-ray "catalog" titles aren't selling in large numbers.

Of course the key difference is that those titles are available because publishers MAKE them available.

Disc manufacturing is cheap. If Sony, for example, wanted to have a back catalog of PSone hits available on disc, there is no reason it couldn't do that.

But it doesn't. It only makes them available digitally.

There is NO EASY WAY to get new copies of (most) old games. The ONLY OPTION made available by publishers is USED so that's where people get old stuff.

Movie studios make sure that it is EASY for consumers to get new copies of old movies, so there is no need for used.

Blizzard is one major exception to the gaming side. It continues to make Diablo, Diablo II, Warcraft III and Starcraft available at retail. And you know what? PEOPLE STILL BUY THE SHIT OUT OF IT whenever a new game comes out.

Starcraft sales spiked like crazy when Starcraft II was announced. It hit the top of the NPD charts for a few weeks in there US. Why? Because for most people it was easier to impulse buy the old game for $10-15 then try to dig up an old copy. The exact same reason why people impulse buy old movies on Blu-ray.

 

[Shai-Tan]

EU has already ruled that I'm allowed to resell my digital content.

I'm not sure how they're going to deal with the price fixing system MS have in mind, but I doubt they're going to be too happy about it.

That's interesting but keep in mind that first sale prices take into account secondary markets. That ruling at least seems to save most of that value getting sucked up by companies like gamestop as it's much more efficient to trade on the internet but it also still creates winners and losers where one type of game gets high resell which will distort what type of games will be made

 

[Zen_Arcade]

No, you're missing the point. Movies filmed on celluloid already have a greater theoretical "resolution" than current HD. Obviously film doesn't have resolution, it's not digital, but current "HD" cannot resolve all the detail available on film. If they clean up a movie they're doing so to remove scratches and dirt, that's not remotely the same thing as redoing the graphics in a game to update it to modern standards.

It doesn't matter why they're doing it. Either way they're doing it to repackage a product and sell it again. And either way labor needs to be put into the product so consumers have an insentive to buy it again. Both industries spruce up an already made product and repackage it hoping that people will buy it again.

 

[StudioTan]

1. I'm not sure that's true, but a large amount, certainly.
2. There are literally thousands not there at all.
3. What does this have to do with the topic at hand?

You continue to ignore my posts, I can only assume because you can't answer them. What bearing does revenue potential have on consumer rights? I can re-sell any item down to ones that cost nothing. Literally, nothing. Why should games making less money than movies matter at all?

If I'm ignoring your posts it's because they don't relate to the point I'm making. As far as your consumer rights, they are not absolute and software is already sold to you as a license rather than goods.

Guess What, You Don’t Own That Software You Bought