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[Auron_Kale]

Okay SE, just make KHBBSFM reasonably priced for me to do this and I'll be happy.

That's all I'm asking - oh and for FF Type-0 whenever I get around to purchasing it.

 

[Michan]

A DVD player is not backwards compatible with VHS tapes. A CD player is not backwards compatible with vinyl or audio tape. Duckroll already pointed this out, and yet you continue to try and twist the definition of backwards compatibility until it loses all meaning, and ignore any system that doesn't have BC such as the DSi.

CD and DVD players are dated. VHS began its phase-out the decade before last. And besides, DVD playing devices are almost always backwards compatible with CDs, the media format that preceded it... and more-or-less all MP3 players provide some method to convert your CD library into a compatible format. Otherwise, they wouldn't sell.

Over the last decade, the standard has switched to entertainment devices being backwards compatible. I have re-stated this consistently during the thread.

I have also acknowledged that DSi is not backwards compatible with GBA. It's mentioned in one of my posts where I listed Nintendo's handheld systems and backwards compatibility. The PS3 Slim and new Wii are also not backwards compatible. But my argument from the start was that all new devices should begin their life as backwards compatible with the previous system's library, as they are... PS Vita aside.

He would also need to be outraged that Sony and MS don't give us a digital license for all our disc based games that we could download and install to any machine we're signed into, including their next gen consoles once they are released.

I think most sane people would be outraged if the PS3/Xbox 360 successors did not support their predecessors' libraries in some fashion.

 

[Quixzlizx]

It would probably be more accurate to say you'd rather have no UMD drive if having one would increase the price of the system and would mean that new games would still be using that format.

If it was present in the way that the GBA slot remained on the DS (that is, it's only there for BC) and didn't increase the overall cost of the system from $250, surely you'd consider that superior? You'd be able to buy and play UMD games for much cheaper than on PSN, and there'd be none of this BC mess for the general public to sort out that might make them reconsider their purchase.

It's in your best interest for others to be happy, after all - the more hardware sales, the more software support.

In a hypothetical world where smashing in a UMD drive somehow didn't impact the size/functionality/price of the device at all, then yes, I'd rather have one. I don't believe that would've been possible.

The only grievance of these three that will have truly been eliminated on Vita is the slow-loading. While the cards themselves won't suck extra battery, the battery life is functionally no different from the PSP's.

That battery life comparison is apples/oranges. The battery life isn't the same because UMD=new Vita card, it's the same because it's much more powerful/has a much better screen. A Vita running UMDs would have worse battery life than what it has now.

 

[UncleSporky]

It be bigger, louder, heavier, and have an even worse battery life. No I would not want a UMD drive on the vita.

In practice, much of the time it would only be bigger, at worst. Only PSP games would be affected by the rest. With no UMD in the system, your Vita would otherwise be almost exactly the same as it is now.

 

[Skilletor]

I think most sane people would be outraged if the PS3/Xbox 360 successors did not support their predecessors' libraries in some fashion.

Why would I be mad? I don't think there's anything insane about expecting something you bought to work with a specific console in mind to work with any future console. It's not owed to me. So long as it works as intended on the system for which I bought it, I have nothing to complain about.

 

[Curufinwe]

It would probably be more accurate to say you'd rather have no UMD drive if having one would increase the price of the system and would mean that new games would still be using that format.

If it was present in the way that the GBA slot remained on the DS (that is, it's only there for BC) and didn't increase the overall cost of the system from $250

That's just fantasy, though. Including a UMD drive on the Vita just for BC reasons would necessarily totally change the size, design and price of the device.

 

[Michan]

Why would I be mad? I don't think there's anything insane about expecting something you bought to work with a specific console in mind to work with any future console. It's not owed to me. So long as it works as intended on the system for which I bought it, I have nothing to complain about.

Interesting.

 

[UncleSporky]

Why would I be mad? I don't think there's anything insane about expecting something you bought to work with a specific console in mind to work with any future console. It's not owed to me. So long as it works as intended on the system for which I bought it, I have nothing to complain about.

This is commonly referred to as Stockholm syndrome.

 

[Skilletor]

This is commonly referred to as Stockholm syndrome.

What?

I bought my PSP games to play on my psp. I can play them forever and ever.

Same with my ps3.

I still have a ps2 even though my ps3 is BC.

So...again, what?

 

[Curufinwe]

I think most sane people would be outraged if the PS3/Xbox 360 successors did not support their predecessors' libraries in some fashion.

I will be disappointed if they don't let me play my PS360 games by putting in the disc, but I believe the chances that Sony and MS will be able to get publishers to let me download a digital version of all my disc-based games for free are zero.

 

[Michan]

What?

I bought my PSP games to play on my psp. I can play them forever and ever.

Same with my ps3.

I still have a ps2 even though my ps3 is BC.

So...again, what?

Would you prefer six systems and sets of cables under/behind your television, or three?

 

[TheBanditKing]

Its a nice option and I am glad they are doing something, that said though I will likely never use it. Just because Vita comes out doesn't mean my PSP is broken and until memory card prices come down for Vita I will still be using my PSP for my PSOne classics.

 

[manueldelalas]

I don't get the DVD-VHS comparison.

I mean, you always had the option to buy a device that played both DVDs and VHSs, and anyone who wanted to see all movies in a single device, had that option available. There were even devices, in the very dawn of DVDs that let you copy your VHSs into DVDs (but were expensive as hell).

The same is true between CDs and Cassettes, early on, there where CD players that included cassette players.

Vinyl to cassette is a trickier one, but I know there was a way early on to record your vinyls into a cassette (my dad did this, but i was way to young to know how).

So whoever made that comparison is completely wrong.

 

[Skilletor]

Would you prefer six systems and sets of cables under/behind your television, or three?

I don't see what this has to do with the argument. What I prefer and what is reality are not one in the same.

 

[Michan]

I will be disappointed if they don't let me play my PS360 games by putting in the disc, but I believe the chances that Sony and MS will be able to get publishers to let me download a digital version of all my disc-based games for free are zero.

They already let you do that in all but the signature check. It's called installing it to your harddrive.

 

[Loonz]

It wouldn't be difficult for Sony to create a simple way to connect your PSP to your Vita, system installing with a sumcheck that way. They've already proved they can run PSP titles. Nintendo did something similar with system transfer from DS to 3DS.

Honestly, that's what I thought they'd do. You pay for the cable, then you install a validation software on the PSP and finally, using the PSP as a reader, you obtain a unique digital firmed copy of your game on the Vita, to be used only on that Vita (for example). I don't have any idea whether this is technically feasible, but from a consumer's standpoint I think it would be more desirable and useful.

On the other hand if they're going to ask you a fee for a digital copy of your own games, it should be more reasonable than 10 $ a copy. That's simply too much. I doubt many people outside this forum makes use of this option if they indeed make it available outside Japan.

But then, why bother?. Well, apparently they only bother just to squeeze every possible dollar from their fanbase.

And lastly, if I don't like this "solution" for the lack of native BC on the Vita, do I have the right to disagree?. Because I'm reading some of you, fellow gaffers, and you don't seem to receive dissenting opinions very well.

 

[Huff]

They already let you do that in all but the signature check. It's called installing it to your harddrive.

But can you install it into the xbox next then play both the game on the 360 and on the next at the same time? No.

 

[Michan]

I don't see what this has to do with the argument. What I prefer and what is reality are not one in the same.

Backwards compatibility. It can potentially halve the clutter under your TV/in your pocket. It's great if you really enjoy games that are older than a couple of years of age.

But can you install it into the xbox next then play both the game on the 360 and on the next at the same time? No.

Why would you do this? Do you have four hands?

You would put your 360 tidily away into your closet and play everything on your Next.

 

[Curufinwe]

But can you install it into the xbox next then play both the game on the 360 and on the next at the same time? No.

Exactly. With this PSP passport program, you can get Tactics Ogre as a download on your Vita and keep playing it and then pass off your PSP and UMD copy of the game to someone else. Which is why it costs around $10 per game rather than being free.

 

[H_Prestige]

They already let you do that in all but the signature check. It's called installing it to your harddrive.

When you install a 360 game, you're just telling the the system to read the data from the HDD instead of the DVD. You're not making a new copy of the game or obtaining a digital license to download it from the marketplace.

Why would you do this? Do you have four hands?

You would put your 360 tidily away into your closet and play everything on your Next.

He means having the game on multiple systems at the same time, not literally playing them all at the same time. This is what a digital license grants you (unless you're buying from Nintendo).

 

[Michan]

When you install a 360 game, you're just telling the the system to read the date from the HDD instead of the DVD. You're not making a new copy of the game.

Exactly!

 

[Noshino]

Why would I be mad? I don't think there's anything insane about expecting something you bought to work with a specific console in mind to work with any future console. It's not owed to me. So long as it works as intended on the system for which I bought it, I have nothing to complain about.

That's pretty much my stance as well

It doesn't matter if its the same code or not, if I buy a certain game for a certain console/format, the only thing I can expect is for it to work on said console/format (so long as I take care of it). I can't rightfully ask for the DD version if I only bought the disc.

The sense of entitlement of customer keeps increasing =/

This is commonly referred to as Stockholm syndrome.

Did you just look that up in Wikipedia?

Exactly!

So you wanted Sony to put a UMD drive on the Vita?

 

[androvsky]

Honestly, that's what I thought they'd do. You pay for the cable, then you install a validation software on the PSP and finally, using the PSP as a reader, you obtain a unique digital firmed copy of your game on the Vita, to be used only on that Vita (for example). I don't have any idea whether this is feasible, but from a consumer's standpoint I think it would be more desirable and useful.

Except that still leaves people with hacked PSPs able to easily put any pirated game they want on unhacked Vitas with Sony's blessing. It's nice to daydream about what would be best for consumers, but when it comes down to what's possible without enabling mass piracy, what Sony is doing is one of the better solutions for both consumers and publishers.

Lower fees would be nice, but wide publisher support is nice too.

 

[Michan]

Honestly, that's what I thought they'd do. You pay for the cable, then you install a validation software on the PSP and finally, using the PSP as a reader, you obtain a unique digital firmed copy of your game on the Vita, to be used only on that Vita (for example). I don't have any idea whether this is technically feasible, but from a consumer's standpoint I think it would be more desirable and useful.

On the other hand if they're going to ask you a fee for a digital copy of your own games, it should be more reasonable than 10 $ a copy. That's simply too much. I doubt many people outside this forum makes use of this option if they indeed make it available outside Japan.

But then, why bother?. Well, apparently they only bother just to squeeze every possible dollar from their fanbase.

And lastly, if I don't like this "solution" for the lack of native BC on the Vita, do I have the right to disagree?. Because I'm reading some of you, fellow gaffers, and you don't seem to receive dissenting opinions very well.

I think we could become good friends.

 

[demigod]

They already let you do that in all but the signature check. It's called installing it to your harddrive.

WTF are you talking about? You cannot install all PS3 games, you cannot download games on PSN and Games on Demand even when you have the physical media. You have to buy the digital download. You don't even know if the hard drive will be backwards compatible or if it's a new proprietary. Also you cannot load the 360 game with HDD alone.

 

[Curufinwe]

I don't get the DVD-VHS comparison.

I mean, you always had the option to buy a device that played both DVDs and VHSs, and anyone who wanted to see all movies in a single device, had that option available. There were even devices, in the very dawn of DVDs that let you copy your VHSs into DVDs (but were expensive as hell).

The same is true between CDs and Cassettes, early on, there where CD players that included cassette players.

Vinyl to cassette is a trickier one, but I know there was a way early on to record your vinyls into a cassette (my dad did this, but i was way to young to know how).

So whoever made that comparison is completely wrong.

The fact that you could buy DVD/VHS combo players does not mean that DVD was backwards compatible with VHS. You wouldn't say Blu-Ray players were backwards compatible with DVDs if you had to buy a combo machine with one drive for playing Blu-rays and another drive for playing DVDs.

Blu-Ray players are backwards compatible with DVDs because you can put a DVD in and it will work. DVD players are not backwards compatible with VHS tapes.

 

[makingmusic476]

I hope transfer fees are lower in the US.

$10 for Patapon? Patapon 2 was $7.99 on PSN awhile back.

 

[XOMTOR]

That I will agree with. UMD was just not a good proprietary medium.
You'd think after the MiniDisc fiasco, they'd shy away from that.

And sadly, Sony is adopting a new proprietary format not only for Vita's games but also for it's memory cards too.

 

[Quixzlizx]

Exactly!

The point is that you still need to have your disc in the system. The Vita would need a UMD drive for the same system to work.

If your point is that you'd rather the Vita be a worse product otherwise while still containing a UMD drive, then fair enough.

 

[Michan]

WTF are you talking about? You cannot install all PS3 games, you cannot download games on PSN and Games on Demand even when you have the physical media. You have to buy the digital download. You don't even know if the hard drive will be backwards compatible or if it's a new proprietary. Also you cannot load the 360 game with HDD alone.

Hence the signature check. The disc. A signature check can be anything, but a disc is the easiest way, seeing as it's pretty hard to duplicate.

The point is that you still need to have your disc in the system. The Vita would need a UMD drive for the same system to work.

If your point is that you'd rather the Vita be a worse product otherwise while still containing a UMD drive, then fair enough.

Again, the signature can be anything. It doesn't have to be a disc. Be creative!

 

[Agent X]

I can just see Agent X arguing in favor of a 3DS without DS game support.

What are you insinuating here?

 

[androvsky]

Hence the signature check. The disc. A signature check can be anything, but a disc is the easiest way, seeing as it's pretty hard to duplicate.

How is any of this supposed to work with the Vita?

 

[H_Prestige]

And sadly, Sony is adopting a new proprietary format not only for Vita's games but also for it's memory cards too.

Yeah, I thought Nintendo and Sony would get with the times and use something standard like high speed SD cards for their new portables. They don't use proprietary formats for their home consoles so I don't know why they have to for portables.

 

[manueldelalas]

The fact that you could buy DVD/VHS combo players does not mean that DVD was backwards compatible with VHS. You wouldn't say Blu-Ray players were backwards compatible with DVDs if you had to buy a combo machine with one drive for playing Blu-rays and another drive for playing DVDs.

Blu-Ray players are backwards compatible with DVDs because you can put a DVD in and it will work. DVD players are not backwards compatible with VHS tapes.

And the DS? The DS is a combo player basically, and no one can say it isn't backwards compatible with the GBA. It's exactly the same.

 

[Huff]

On the other hand if they're going to ask you a fee for a digital copy of your own games, it should be more reasonable than 10 $ a copy. That's simply too much. I doubt many people outside this forum makes use of this option if they indeed make it available outside Japan.

It's the same thing as owning a SNES cartridge and then buying a VC. Sony also isn't setting the prices.

But then, why bother?. Well, apparently they only bother just to squeeze every possible dollar from their fanbase.

Why bother having any games for download? Gamers want the games. Companies want the sales. Not sure where the evil company thing is coming into play

And lastly, if I don't like this "solution" for the lack of native BC on the Vita, do I have the right to disagree?. Because I'm reading some of you, fellow gaffers, and you don't seem to receive dissenting opinions very well.

I think everyone here has been rather nice.

 

[Curufinwe]

So you wanted Sony to put a UMD drive on the Vita?

I believe his "Exactly!" was meant to indicate that putting a game on a hard drive does not generate a new copy, but that is only the case for the 360 because you still need the disc. If you lose the disc or it breaks, having the game installed on your hard drive will do nothing but take up space.

This Passport program is different because when you download a copy of your PSP game to play on the Vita that's all you need. The original UMD copy of the game can be thrown away or given away.

 

[mollipen]

What?

I bought my PSP games to play on my psp. I can play them forever and ever.

Same with my ps3.

I still have a ps2 even though my ps3 is BC.

So...again, what?

Because we live in a different world now. When I go from an iPhone 3GS to an iPhone 4, I don't have to give up everything I've purchased until then even if the iPhone 4 can run more powerful software that isn't usable on older hardware.

The era of game consoles completely wiping the slate every time needs to come to an end.

 

[Huff]

Because we live in a different world now. When I go from an iPhone 3GS to an iPhone 4, I don't have to give up everything I've purchased until then even if the iPhone 4 can run more powerful software that isn't usable on older hardware.

The era of game consoles completely wiping the slate every time needs to come to an end.

Then everything needs to go digital.

 

[androvsky]

Again, the signature can be anything. It doesn't have to be a disc. Be creative!

Err, once you get creative you're into mass piracy with Sony's blessing again.

You be creative. You come up with a way to do UMD transfers that doesn't involve sending the discs to Sony (which is expensive), and doesn't make it easy for people with CFW PSPs to simply put whatever pirated games they want on their Vitas.

 

[H_Prestige]

Exactly!

But Sony isn't offering a way to install UMD's to a Vita memory card. I don't think publishers would like that, unless you had to keep the UMD inside the PSP while playing it on the Vita...which is obviously ridiculous.

 

[Michan]

How is any of this supposed to work with the Vita?

A disc is proof that you have the game, so it acts as the "signature." Yeah, you can easily copy a disc, so it's susceptible to piracy, but it's pretty secure.

A signature can be anything. It doesn't have to be a disc. If you can prove you own the game, that's good enough to act as a signature. Here's a scenario which Sony has abandoned in favour of the more profitable route.

1. PSP validates the disc against Sony's servers.
^ This is clearly feasible, since the press release says you can only register each disc once. You're essentially doing the same thing here.

2. If it's a non-used disc, your PSN account gets a flag giving you permission to play that game from a Vita's memory stick.

3. The game is packaged and transfered.

4. Each time you load the game, it checks your account against Sony's servers to ensure you have permission to play this game. A token could even be stored, giving you permission to play it for x days before needing to check the server again.

This is exactly the same as installing to your HDD from a technical standpoint – the only difference is the way the signature is created/checked (and actually far more secure against piracy than HDD install, since Sony has remote control over your access to the software).

The only reason Sony did not choose this route is because it will cost them money. But sometimes you have to spend money to gain loyalty and, eventually, sell more hardware/software.

 

[Curufinwe]

Then everything needs to go digital.

If everything went digital all of us with huge PS360 game collections will be fucked. It'll happen eventually, just hopefully not with this next generation.

 

[Skilletor]

Because we live in a different world now. When I go from an iPhone 3GS to an iPhone 4, I don't have to give up everything I've purchased until then even if the iPhone 4 can run more powerful software that isn't usable on older hardware.

The era of game consoles completely wiping the slate every time needs to come to an end.

The things I've bought digitally will work with my Vita. I've bought a lot of games with that in mind.

I never once purchased a UMD with the thought that I would be able to use it on a Vita.

 

[XOMTOR]

Yeah, I thought Nintendo and Sony would get with the times and use something standard like high speed SD cards for their new portables. They don't use proprietary formats for their home consoles so I don't know why they have to for portables.

Can't speak for Nintendo but I've been buying Sony cameras and other misc. gear for years and one thing you learn is that Sony loves their proprietary formats. While the rest of the manufacturers are putting SD slots in everything, Sony tries to be different and develops memory stick. LOL. Funnier still is that they don't learn and they develop different variations of these (see MS Duo, Pro Duo, Micro) and the industry continues to ignore them.

Honestly, that's what I thought they'd do. You pay for the cable, then you install a validation software on the PSP and finally, using the PSP as a reader, you obtain a unique digital firmed copy of your game on the Vita, to be used only on that Vita (for example). I don't have any idea whether this is technically feasible, but from a consumer's standpoint I think it would be more desirable and useful.

Yea, was thinking they'd come up with that as well. Perhaps, they could digitally sign the ISO and perhaps even make it so that it expires, say after 2 weeks or so. That way there, you can't turn around and sell your UMDs and a simple, occasional re-connect to your PSP as validation and you're good to go.

 

[Quixzlizx]

Because we live in a different world now. When I go from an iPhone 3GS to an iPhone 4, I don't have to give up everything I've purchased until then even if the iPhone 4 can run more powerful software that isn't usable on older hardware.

The era of game consoles completely wiping the slate every time needs to come to an end.

You can use digital licenses of PSP games you've bought on PSN on the Vita. This is a physical copy vs digital license issue.

 

[androvsky]

A disc is proof that you have the game, so it acts as the "signature." Yeah, you can easily copy a disc, so it's susceptible to piracy, but it's pretty secure.

A signature can be anything. It doesn't have to be a disc. If you can prove you own the game, that's good enough to act as a signature. Here's a scenario which Sony has abandoned in favour of the more profitable route.

1. PSP validates the disc against Sony's servers.
^ This is clearly feasible, since the press release says you can only register each disc once. You're essentially doing the same thing here.

I'm pretty sure the press release only says that to encourage people to be honest with the transfer program. I've never heard of any way to uniquely identify pressed UMDs, and have heard several times from people who know the system pretty well that it's simply impossible. Sony's basically saying "please don't abuse this".

 

[djplaeskool]

Because we live in a different world now. When I go from an iPhone 3GS to an iPhone 4, I don't have to give up everything I've purchased until then even if the iPhone 4 can run more powerful software that isn't usable on older hardware.

The era of game consoles completely wiping the slate every time needs to come to an end.

The only way this is even remotely possible with consumer electronics is if it's 100% digital.
Until then, loss will occur in transition. Maybe not total loss, depending on the the platform, but some contraction is inevitable.
Format standardization can help mitigate this a lot, so hopefully there are no more disc to solid state (or vice versa) moves.

 

[Michan]

Perhaps, they could digitally sign the ISO and perhaps even make it so that it expires, say after 2 weeks or so. That way there, you can't turn around and sell your UMDs and a simple, occasional re-connect to your PSP as validation and you're good to go.

This man knows how to think sharply.

 

[SykoTech]

Decent option, but no thanks. I'll just keep my PSP.

 

[CosmicQueso]

Because we live in a different world now. When I go from an iPhone 3GS to an iPhone 4, I don't have to give up everything I've purchased until then even if the iPhone 4 can run more powerful software that isn't usable on older hardware.

The era of game consoles completely wiping the slate every time needs to come to an end.

So, you take your iPhone 3GS App Discs, and use the transfer cabl.... oh wait a minute. Yeah, totally not the same thing at all, is it? Use the PSN store and your PSP games should go with you as long as the software can be supported. Digital. It's the future.