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Transgender 101: A Starter Guide

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Nephtis

Member
It's gonna be a long, long time before society fully embraces trans people. A lot of the times people can't even get the past others being gay or bi. Having threads like these help out a lot, I think.

People have to be pretty careful though - looking down on someone asking a question or stating how they feel about a certain thing completely defeats the purpose of threads like these.

Knights of Sidonia is awesome in this regard - having humans that don't belong to either gender (physically) until they fully identify with it. I wish reality was like that.
 

tearsofash

Member
Not the biggest fan of calling TERFs 'psuedo" feminists.

I mean they ARE feminists, just really bad ones.

I think people really need to learn how to own the bad people in their group instead pretending they're fake or don't exist.

They aren't feminists because they aren't supporting women.
 

entremet

Member
I didn't see this in the OP, but will help many.

http://www.glaad.org/reference/transgender

It goes over proper pronoun usage, which is a common and innocent mistake for those not educated in these issues.

Sure some people are assholes about this, but more than not, people just don't know.

The terms to avoid section is great.
 
I agree. It'd be no different than saying you're a progressive, but all you ever do is advocate definitively un-progressive ideas.

They aren't feminists because they aren't supporting women.

I feel you have to acknowledge them as 'feminist' in much the same way one registers the Westboro Baptist Church, Ted Cruz, or American evangelicals in general as 'Christian'. It's the root basis of their ideology and beliefs, and/or otherwise related to how they wish to frame those beliefs, and so is key to understanding just how the hell they can apply the label to themselves at all. Then when explaining to others why those interpretations undermine the entire point of those philosophies, one can lay out the distinct differences and nuances that allow someone praised as a feminist scholar decades ago to apparently not be quite so feminist today. Simply reducing that to 'they're not feminists' can cause confusion among those less informed, as I've found and had to subsequently clarify on.
 

Sunster

Member
I feel you have to acknowledge them as 'feminist' in much the same way one registers the Westboro Baptist Church, Ted Cruz, or American evangelicals in general as 'Christian'. It's the root basis of their ideology and beliefs, and/or otherwise related to how they wish to frame those beliefs, and so is key to understanding just how the hell they can apply the label to themselves at all. Then when explaining to others why those interpretations undermine the entire point of those philosophies, one can lay out the distinct differences and nuances that allow someone praised as a feminist scholar decades ago to apparently not be quite so feminist today. Simply reducing that to 'they're not feminists' can cause confusion among those less informed, as I've found and had to subsequently clarify on.

they don't want true equality among men and women which is the core of feminism.
 
they don't want true equality among men and women which is the core of feminism.

Yeah, and Republican politicians have an appraisal for wealth that would make Jesus deeply uncomfortable. That's the point in what I'm saying - that even if their active stance is hypocritical or goes against the point of their supposed ideology, that doesn't disconnect that stance entirely from its root origins.
 
But that's the thing isn't it? in their view they are not discriminating against women, but against men pretending to be women.

This. Even if you disagree, it's pretty easy how they can still see themselves as feminists. Once again, I don't think the transgender thing has been settled for a lot of people, partly because the issues is so new to them.
 
But that's the thing isn't it? in their view they are not discriminating against women, but against men pretending to be women.

This. Even if you disagree, it's pretty easy how they can still see themselves as feminists. Once again, I don't think the transgender thing has been settled for a lot of people, partly because the issues is so new to them.

They can see themselves as whatever they want, it doesn't make it true.

The point of the matter is that they are discriminating against other women and therefore they are not following the feminist ideals of equality for all.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
They can see themselves as whatever they want, it doesn't make it true.

The point of the matter is that they are discriminating against other women and therefore they are not following the feminist ideals of equality for all.

...But that doesn't change their position.

I mean, we go through this with every affiliation. "Those people aren't true muslims/Christians because they support violence", et al. But it starts sliding into "no true Scotsman" territory really quick.

There are plenty of feminists who don't actually believe in equality for all by the framing set up by other feminists. That doesn't make feminism wrong or a mistake, and it doesn't devalue the work that people do. But it also doesn't mean you get to pretend they don't exist or aren't "real". It's essentially a "not all (wo)men" response.

There's no canonical body that determines who and who isn't feminist.

It also ignores the fact that there are plenty of women who aren't radical feminists but are still trans-exclusionary or transphobic. Society hasn't progressed to the point where these are marginalized views.
 
...But that doesn't change their position.

I mean, we go through this with every affiliation. "Those people aren't true muslims/Christians because they support violence", et al. But it starts sliding into "no true Scotsman" territory really quick.

There are plenty of feminists who don't actually believe in equality for all by the framing set up by other feminists. That doesn't make feminism wrong or a mistake, and it doesn't devalue the work that people do. But it also doesn't mean you get to pretend they don't exist or aren't "real". It's essentially a "not all (wo)men" response.

There's no canonical body that determines who and who isn't feminist.

It also ignores the fact that there are plenty of women who aren't radical feminists but are still trans-exclusionary or transphobic. Society hasn't progressed to the point where these are marginalized views.


What is your argument here exactly? Are you arguing that they are feminists or are you arguing that they see themselves as feminists?

Here's the deal, I'm not setting up purity checks, they are.

Trans women rights are women's rights.

Trans rights are human rights.

You don't get to champion women's rights while openly discriminating on other women.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
What is your argument here exactly? Are you arguing that they are feminists or are you arguing that they see themselves as feminists?

Here's the deal, I'm not setting up purity checks, they are.

Trans women rights are women's rights.

Trans rights are human rights.

You don't get to champion women's rights while openly discriminating on other women.

I'm arguing yes, radical feminists are feminists the same way as the Westboro Baptists are Christian and ISIS are Islamic fighters. Doesn't mean I think their views aren't abhorrent or in conflict with the tenets of their beliefs.

Same applies to trans men, with the added caveat that SRS for trans men is stupidly more dangerous.

What are the reasons for this? I'm familiar with the general procedures (and certainly cost) for reassignment surgery, but I've never heard of the difference in outcomes or risks for trans men or women (searching brings up a lot of violence stats for trans man rather than stuff about the surgery.)
 
What are the reasons for this? I'm familiar with the general procedures (and certainly cost) for reassignment surgery, but I've never heard of the difference in outcomes or risks for trans men or women (searching brings up a lot of violence stats for trans man rather than stuff about the surgery.)

I suspect that latter point is where it becomes 'more dangerous' in particular. It's similar to how male homosexuality got and gets a lot more grief than female homosexuality at both a legal and cultural level - the former is 'gross' to straight cis men, while the latter is hot. A transwoman after SRS is at least physically/visibly appears a woman and therefore potentially attractive to straight cis men, while a trans man is not. Thus they lack any 'use' to straight cis men, and are more free to be attacked for it.
 
I'm arguing yes, radical feminists are feminists the same way as the Westboro Baptists are Christian and ISIS are Islamic fighters. Doesn't mean I think their views aren't abhorrent or in conflict with the tenets of their beliefs.

There's a tremendous difference between radical feminists and TERF's.



What are the reasons for this? I'm familiar with the general procedures (and certainly cost) for reassignment surgery, but I've never heard of the difference in outcomes or risks for trans men or women (searching brings up a lot of violence stats for trans man rather than stuff about the surgery.)


Because building a penis out of nothing is really fucking hard, no pun intended.

You're messing around with a lot of tissues that's extremely vascular and prone to bleeding, not to mention it creates significant more scar tissue and places where bacteria can sneak up on and create a life threatening infection. Remember that you need to do a hysterectomy, strip and close off the vaginal canal, re-wiring parts of the urinary tract and somehow make a functioning penis and scrotum out of it, sometimes relying on skin grafts from other parts of the body.

On the other hand, making a vagina is a whole heck of a lot easier since most modern techniques rely on the usage of penile tissue and skin as well as scrotal skin, which you have readily available and would otherwise be discarded. All you're really removing are the testicles.

Mind you, it's fairly more graphic than that and I'm simplifying a bit for the sake of keeping things less graphic.
 

Dmax3901

Member
I guess where my brain trips up is trying to put myself in a trans person's shoes. I'm a white straight guy, so I try to empathise as much as possible and understand as much as I possibly can. When I think of men being attracted to other men I get it, cause I figure it's the same attraction I feel for women. Easy.

The same thought process doesn't seem to work when imagining being transgender, it's a lot harder for me to imagine what it's like to feel like my external features don't match who I am. I mean everyone looks in the mirror and thinks shit I need to lose some weight, or I need a haircuit/shave etc. But to look in the mirror and think everything is wrong? I have nothing to compare it to. I also think it's a lot harder to "feel" your gender, if that makes sense. To feel my outward gender is wrong so intensely that I'd be willing to go through surgery etc? It's so hard for me to grasp.

So I'm pretty sure no-one responded to me, sorry if you did, but I think I came up with my own answer.

Basically, I imagined if I was forced to wear a summer dress and make-up and go about my day as normal. I would be extremely uncomfortable and do whatever it took to change things.

I asked my GF what the equivalent might be for her and she said she'd happily wear most guy clothes. For her the thought experiment involves her having a magical beard that she couldn't shave, and being forced to not wear make-up. That would be the equivalent level of discomfort in her appearance.

Hope this helps anyone else struggling to put themselves in a transgender person's shoes.
 
So I'm pretty sure no-one responded to me, sorry if you did, but I think I came up with my own answer.

Basically, I imagined if I was forced to wear a summer dress and make-up and go about my day as normal. I would be extremely uncomfortable and do whatever it took to change things.

I asked my GF what the equivalent might be for her and she said she'd happily wear most guy clothes. For her the thought experiment involves her having a magical beard that she couldn't shave, and being forced to not wear make-up. That would be the equivalent level of discomfort in her appearance.

Hope this helps anyone else struggling to put themselves in a transgender person's shoes.

Sorry, sometimes it's hard to keep up with everything and everyone!

Honestly it's going to be near impossible if not impossible for a cis person to know what it's like to be trans no matter the explanation, as much as it's impossible for a trans person to know what it's like to be cis. It's just too deep of a personal thing.

It's really hard to create an accurate thought experiment because dysphoria hits trans people in such a varied number of ways, it's not constant in intensity and oftentimes ramps up and down to any stimuli or none at all. It's something that varies quite a bit from person to person.

My best advice is to try to relate instead of trying to put yourself in someone's shoes. If you've ever been a victim of bullying or abuse then I think it should be fairly easy to relate to the struggle that trans people go through.

Imagine having to wear the most embarrassing outfit you can imagine on a daily basis, having to talk, walk and act like the exact opposite of who you are and having to suppress any kind of personality traits you may have while having someone constantly yelling at how much you suck and everyone hates you and how you need to act like someone that is not you.

If you've ever experienced sleep paralysis, where you're awake but cannot move a single muscle or talk, it's an easy way to relate. You're just there, trapped inside your body unable to communicate, screaming internally while things happen around you without you having any control over them.

There are other experiences that will make it easier to relate and my examples are far from perfect or exhaustive but I hope it gives you a better idea.
 
Hey, thanks for making the thread !
I've been wondering a lot about how as a transgender couple would you educate - or already have - your children about sex and gender, how and when would you talk about the idea that you're not obligated to keep the gender you were biologically born with?

Also, do you wish your parents talked to you about this matter when you were young, or are you glad if they did so?
 
Hey, thanks for making the thread !
I've been wondering a lot about how as a transgender couple would you educate - or already have - your children about sex and gender, how and when would you talk about the idea that you're not obligated to keep the gender you were biologically born with?

Also, do you wish your parents talked to you about this matter when you were young, or are you glad if they did so?

I don't think that's a fair assumption.

As a parent, you'd have to let your child grow into themselves and supporting them along the way. If the child ends up being transgender, which is fairly impossible to detect until they develop a sense of self, then you support them.

There's no real talk of "you can be whatever you want" as much as you listen to your child and, with professional help, try to make sure that the child has everything they need to become who they are.


If you mean "how do you explain to a child the concept of transgender" then that's a whole different ball game. Honestly the best way to describe it is that you are who you are and people have the right to express themselves as they need.

You'd be surprised. Children don't have such rigid ideas of male or female until they are superimposed by society and media.
 

Dmax3901

Member
Sorry, sometimes it's hard to keep up with everything and everyone!

Honestly it's going to be near impossible if not impossible for a cis person to know what it's like to be trans no matter the explanation, as much as it's impossible for a trans person to know what it's like to be cis. It's just too deep of a personal thing.

It's really hard to create an accurate thought experiment because dysphoria hits trans people in such a varied number of ways, it's not constant in intensity and oftentimes ramps up and down to any stimuli or none at all. It's something that varies quite a bit from person to person.

My best advice is to try to relate instead of trying to put yourself in someone's shoes. If you've ever been a victim of bullying or abuse then I think it should be fairly easy to relate to the struggle that trans people go through.

Imagine having to wear the most embarrassing outfit you can imagine on a daily basis, having to talk, walk and act like the exact opposite of who you are and having to suppress any kind of personality traits you may have while having someone constantly yelling at how much you suck and everyone hates you and how you need to act like someone that is not you.

If you've ever experienced sleep paralysis, where you're awake but cannot move a single muscle or talk, it's an easy way to relate. You're just there, trapped inside your body unable to communicate, screaming internally while things happen around you without you having any control over them.

There are other experiences that will make it easier to relate and my examples are far from perfect or exhaustive but I hope it gives you a better idea.

Thanks for this post. Was helpful :)
 
The best way I've found to explain it so far is imagine the feeling when you look in the mirror and don't like something but x10, your entire body and its constant not just looking in a mirror
 

Veelk

Banned
So, I just read a fantasy book. It's called Wake of Vultures by Lila Bowen. It's a western setting where supernatural creatures exist. A girl discovers it one day by encountering a vampire, and that causes her to be targetted, which sets her off on an classic western adventure. For my tastes, it's good. I don't want to oversell it, and if I tried to be more precise I'd probably get bogged down in the details because I can just go on and on about stories. But if a classic western adventure with a supernatural tinge sounds like your thing, you might be interested.

But even if it doesn't, you might still be interested because of who the main character is. There are few protagonists who are women in fantasy, fewer I think who are people of color, only a handful of gay/bi characters, but I'm not sure I ever heard of a transgender fantasy protagonist. So, if you're a fantasy or western fan that happens to be transgender, you probably don't have many heroic representations in fiction. Well, this book has all those bases covered. The main character, Nettie Lonesome, is a mixed african american and native american girl who is attracted to both men and women and strongly identifies as a man. Diversity is important, so if anyone is longing for a transgender hero, there you have one.

And, also, this book finally provided me the excuse I needed to make a post about this topic. I've been meaning to do it since forever, but it kept getting pushed back. See, I read the entire book, and it was only at the end, in the author's note, that I realized that the main character was intentionally written to identify as a man once the author outright stated it. And it's not like I didn't notice entire sections that described how she longed to do the things men did. But I didn't register that as "I want to be a man."

So, perhaps someone can help me out. And just to be clear, I'm asking in earnestness, because I don't entirely understand this aspect of gender identity.

I was a kid in the 90's and I was raised to what I percieve is the typical culture of the time. It was homophobic where "gay" was used as a slur and men were supposed to be tough and macho and blah blah blah, all the usual dumb stuff. Through the course of my life, I seperated myself from that cultural poison and try to live my life opposed to it. I'm especially a feminist who believes that women should be treated equally because, for me, there just aren't any concrete differences between men and women as people other than their genitalia. Which is why I don't get the whole gender identity thing.

I mean, there are obviously certain traits that have been scientifically observed to be more in women than men, and vice versa, I know that. But there's no trait that one gender can have that the other absolutely can't, and I'm pretty sure if we dropped all the cultural tendencies that encourage differences between men and women in the first place, I believe we'd be mostly similar on average. Beyond that, the practices we have that divide the genders are just that. Practices. Like, the field of programming isn't inherently gendered. Our society just worked itself in such a way that it ended up a field dominated by men. And we know this because, at it's inception, women were just as interested to program. Until society decided it was a men's thing to do, so women's interest in programming died out for decades. So, for me, I've embraced what society might call feminine personality traits in some way, but to me, they're just personality traits. I don't feel like a woman if I decide that I want to cry at a sad movie, for example. I can't think of a feminine quality I wouldn't embrace if I wanted to, but I don't see that making me feel feminine, it just makes me feel that feminine qualities aren't actually feminine at all, or masculine. They're just qualities.

So, in that sense, I don't really know what it actually means to say "I feel like a man/woman on the inside". In the novel, the main character puts on a disguise of being a man, she talks about how she wants to do a job that is male dominated, etc. All that just came off to me was that she was letting the influences of her society see a job as masculine when in actuality it's just a job.

Idk. I apologize if I got anything wrong here, that maybe the protagonist doesn't qualify as transgender for some reason or whatever. As I said, I just genuinely don't understand it. And that's fine, I don't have to. If you're a transgender person, I still care about the person part, and I don't reject your assertion about how you feel. Your self identity is valid and I support it. I just have difficulty understanding it.
 

Platy

Member
Awesome thread !
Sad that I missed the attraction discussion =P
The basic problem about those discussions, and a good information to have on a thread like this, is the unspoken rule some people have to how a trans woman look like.

There are very few characteristics that every trans women has.
Deep voice, adam's apple, big feet, broad shoulders, penis, 5 o clock shadow ... they are all details that lots of trans women lack so it is a problem putting them all in a group in most cases.
And as time passes, with children being diagnosed earlier and with treatment and transition as early as possible, those details will become increasingly rarer

Like saying all black woman have big noses or curly hair =P
Hell you can't even say that all black woman have dark skin

On the "can't talk about vaginas because trans women" makes no sense... but it is kinda transphobic to connect vaginas to women exclusively because some trans men also have it.
 

Dmax3901

Member
Any tips to convince transphobic people that it's not a mental illness? Is there one solve-all magic website I can point them to to make them not be bigots?
 
Any tips to convince transphobic people that it's not a mental illness? Is there one solve-all magic website I can point them to to make them not be bigots?

It's kinda tricky like that, in part because of the phrasing you'll find from many official sources that people would otherwise reognise. Like, the NHS explains things under their Gender Dysphoria page, but the conclusion they reach - helping people come to terms with their identity in whatever specific way they need - will be ignored in favour of leaping to 'mental illness' because of it being referred to as 'a condition' (though the condition is more the distress brought about by the misalignment of sex and gender, rather than being transgender in itself). While many a bigot claims they want transgender people to receive 'help', the actual help suggested by the single largest health organisation on the planet is quite at odds with what the bigots are after.

Of course, even if it was a mental illness, anyone with a good enough shred of decency would recognise most mental illnesses - certainly the most common ones - aren't 'cured' to begin with, they're coped with. At which point if one is still being an asshole about it, I would question their beliefs on similar lines, try to undermine them. Like, would these people similarly expect a 'cure' for autism? If they do, they've shown how little they understand or actually care on either issue, if they don't, why the fuck is it okay for autistic people to be allowed to live as they are, but to not extend the courtesy to transgender people?

Edit: Ultimately, what will 'convince' people is not a uniform thing. In my personal experience it's been just to engage and clarify with them on what being transgender actually is, rather than the nonsense they've picked up from internet memes - I fucking cringe every time the 'attack helicopter' comes up - and nudge em in the right direction. Then again, most of the people I know, even online, genuinely want everyone to lead a decent life anyway, and transgender identity is merely one of the few places that catches them out due to ignorance (and one can sometimes see how their education is lacking in general, unfortunately). Those I've met to be quite open and proud in their transphobia are also the most self-aggrandizing and abhorrent on other issues.
 

Dmax3901

Member
It's kinda tricky like that, in part because of the phrasing you'll find from many official sources that people would otherwise reognise. Like, the NHS explains things under their Gender Dysphoria page, but the conclusion they reach - helping people come to terms with their identity in whatever specific way they need - will be ignored in favour of leaping to 'mental illness' because of it being referred to as 'a condition' (though the condition is more the distress brought about by the misalignment of sex and gender, rather than being transgender in itself). While many a bigot claims they want transgender people to receive 'help', the actual help suggested by the single largest health organisation on the planet is quite at odds with what the bigots are after.

Of course, even if it was a mental illness, anyone with a good enough shred of decency would recognise most mental illnesses - certainly the most common ones - aren't 'cured' to begin with, they're coped with. At which point if one is still being an asshole about it, I would question their beliefs on similar lines, try to undermine them. Like, would these people similarly expect a 'cure' for autism? If they do, they've shown how little they understand or actually care on either issue, if they don't, why the fuck is it okay for autistic people to be allowed to live as they are, but to not extend the courtesy to transgender people?

Edit: Ultimately, what will 'convince' people is not a uniform thing. In my personal experience it's been just to engage and clarify with them on what being transgender actually is, rather than the nonsense they've picked up from internet memes - I fucking cringe every time the 'attack helicopter' comes up - and nudge em in the right direction. Then again, most of the people I know, even online, genuinely want everyone to lead a decent life anyway, and transgender identity is merely one of the few places that catches them out due to ignorance (and one can sometimes see how their education is lacking in general, unfortunately). Those I've met to be quite open and proud in their transphobia are also the most self-aggrandizing and abhorrent on other issues.

Thanks, I'll keep at it whenever and wherever I can.
 
C

Contica

Unconfirmed Member
So, perhaps someone can help me out. And just to be clear, I'm asking in earnestness, because I don't entirely understand this aspect of gender identity.

I was a kid in the 90's and I was raised to what I percieve is the typical culture of the time. It was homophobic where "gay" was used as a slur and men were supposed to be tough and macho and blah blah blah, all the usual dumb stuff. Through the course of my life, I seperated myself from that cultural poison and try to live my life opposed to it. I'm especially a feminist who believes that women should be treated equally because, for me, there just aren't any concrete differences between men and women as people other than their genitalia. Which is why I don't get the whole gender identity thing.

I mean, there are obviously certain traits that have been scientifically observed to be more in women than men, and vice versa, I know that. But there's no trait that one gender can have that the other absolutely can't, and I'm pretty sure if we dropped all the cultural tendencies that encourage differences between men and women in the first place, I believe we'd be mostly similar on average. Beyond that, the practices we have that divide the genders are just that. Practices. Like, the field of programming isn't inherently gendered. Our society just worked itself in such a way that it ended up a field dominated by men. And we know this because, at it's inception, women were just as interested to program. Until society decided it was a men's thing to do, so women's interest in programming died out for decades. So, for me, I've embraced what society might call feminine personality traits in some way, but to me, they're just personality traits. I don't feel like a woman if I decide that I want to cry at a sad movie, for example. I can't think of a feminine quality I wouldn't embrace if I wanted to, but I don't see that making me feel feminine, it just makes me feel that feminine qualities aren't actually feminine at all, or masculine. They're just qualities.

So, in that sense, I don't really know what it actually means to say "I feel like a man/woman on the inside". In the novel, the main character puts on a disguise of being a man, she talks about how she wants to do a job that is male dominated, etc. All that just came off to me was that she was letting the influences of her society see a job as masculine when in actuality it's just a job.

Idk. I apologize if I got anything wrong here, that maybe the protagonist doesn't qualify as transgender for some reason or whatever. As I said, I just genuinely don't understand it. And that's fine, I don't have to. If you're a transgender person, I still care about the person part, and I don't reject your assertion about how you feel. Your self identity is valid and I support it. I just have difficulty understanding it.

You just covered pretty much the bases of where I have to admit I just can't wrap my head around it. I try, but I fail. I've been in discussions with people about these things, and some of the people I've been discussing with have degrees in physics and biology etc, and well, I come up short. Very short. When someone who understands the science of, well, everything to a degree I never will, how do I argue with them? When they say that at the core level, every cell in your body knows if you're male or female, how do I respond? I have nothing to counter with outside of "but there are many people that are born this way". When they say gender and sex being different things is bullshit, what do I say?

I've tried doing my research, but I found no solid science on it, so, yeah, I'd welcome it if anyone can provide.

I just really want to understand, but I don't. I hear people talk about how you feel embarrassed wearing the wrong clothes, and then people who don't want to do surgery, and so many different people who have only one thing in common, not feeling at home in their assigned gender. Why if you don't even want surgery, what's the problem?

Why? Why do the clothes matter? Why do you feel like you're a different gender? Why isn't gender and sex the same? Why does it matter?
Why can't you wear whatever clothes you want? I mean, I'm male, never defined myself as anything else. But I have long hair, I have a couple of skirts, I sometimes wear eyeliner and nail polish. It's not feminine to me. I just do what I feel like doing, and don't give a damn what anyone thinks. So I really don't understand when someone comes out as transgender, and then immediately changes their clothes, grow their hair out, etc etc. Who stopped you doing that in the first place? Why do you have to be a woman, or man, to do those things? Why not just do them?

So that was probably very incoherent, and a lot of questions, but I mean no offense if anyone should take any. I just really want to understand better.
 

petran79

Banned
Can a transgender person officially change his/her name to male or female or are there legal issues and hidrances (USA mainly)?
 
Ok so I have a quick question that I'm still not 100% sure I understand (my other questions were answered in depth early in the the thread, which was a fantastic idea by the way);

If you have always felt you weren't the gender you were born as, and have come out, transitioned, and living your life as your true gender, why do you/members of the community/everyone else still refer to you as trans[gender]? Surely there is a point where you have truly moved to living every aspect of your life as that gender, so why is the trans prefix still applied?

If it is as support for other trans people struggling with coming out I totally get it, I just wondered if there was another reason

NB: the use of 'you' is just as a subject, not referring to the OP or anyone specifically
 
You just covered pretty much the bases of where I have to admit I just can't wrap my head around it. I try, but I fail. I've been in discussions with people about these things, and some of the people I've been discussing with have degrees in physics and biology etc, and well, I come up short. Very short. When someone who understands the science of, well, everything to a degree I never will, how do I argue with them? When they say that at the core level, every cell in your body knows if you're male or female, how do I respond? I have nothing to counter with outside of "but there are many people that are born this way". When they say gender and sex being different things is bullshit, what do I say?

I've tried doing my research, but I found no solid science on it, so, yeah, I'd welcome it if anyone can provide.

I just really want to understand, but I don't. I hear people talk about how you feel embarrassed wearing the wrong clothes, and then people who don't want to do surgery, and so many different people who have only one thing in common, not feeling at home in their assigned gender. Why if you don't even want surgery, what's the problem?

Why? Why do the clothes matter? Why do you feel like you're a different gender? Why isn't gender and sex the same? Why does it matter?
Why can't you wear whatever clothes you want? I mean, I'm male, never defined myself as anything else. But I have long hair, I have a couple of skirts, I sometimes wear eyeliner and nail polish. It's not feminine to me. I just do what I feel like doing, and don't give a damn what anyone thinks. So I really don't understand when someone comes out as transgender, and then immediately changes their clothes, grow their hair out, etc etc. Who stopped you doing that in the first place? Why do you have to be a woman, or man, to do those things? Why not just do them?

So that was probably very incoherent, and a lot of questions, but I mean no offense if anyone should take any. I just really want to understand better.

As has been discussed previously, this sort of thing is where TERFs take umbrage with the whole idea of being transgender, because it often uses or requires some notion of femininity or masculinity that helped someone define and understand their identity, and such in the eyes of many is against the idea of feminism.

The three things to remember though are A) Human biology is not a perfect, consistently constructed thing and B) We are creatures that recognise and act upon patterns, whether in rejection or acceptance of them C) We are creatures that act and live within society, also whether in acceptance or rejection of its norms.

That is to say, until greater studies have been taken and we have a much greater understanding of how biology relates to identity at a more fundamental level - or putting it another way, how does bunch of lifeless matter come together and suddenly has thought? - we cannot say definitively how it relates to our personal understanding of gender. Yes, there has to be some level of distinction for the sake of reproduction; in your typical human female, part of its brain will be dedicated to registering that it has a vagina, that such is compatible with the penis of a human male, and that such is erotically stimulating (as an incentive for reproduction by making it a highly desirable and enjoyable act). But if you want to argue the 'gender is in your biology' case, what happens if that toggle to say 'I like penis' is not in a particular person's brain? What if that 'I like penis' trait is in the brain of someone whose biology is otherwise coded 'male'? What if the part of them that is meant to recognise that they have a vagina is instead the instinct to register a penis, at which point it's thoroughly confused, especially because society has helped to inform it that boobs + vagina + certain clothing trends = female, and after correlating that information it has found an abnormality within itself. And that's all entirely feasible, because every chromosome that informs the build of your body is in fact of billions of 'letters' which can vary completely wildly. We are not precision machines built on a factory, we're the result of a staggeringly long case of trial and error that manages to come out generally within the same margins - typically two legs, two arms, one of two genitalia variants, nose, etc - but nothing is outright guaranteed.

Edit: To add to this point further, there have been some studies and indications that found the brains of transgender men to more match cis men than they did cis women, despite 'biologically' being women in terms of outward appearance, and transgender women's brains being kind of in the middle:
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2011/01/26/scans-show-difference-in-transgender-brains/
So no, whatever part of you determined your genitalia is not everything.

So yeah, that's why the 'biology' argument should still see some scrutiny. On the patterns and society end of things, while we nominally say that people should be able to enjoy whatever they want, in reality we still heavily code and correlate things, to the point that they do work somewhat as markers for identity. We can mock concepts completely while still implicitly supporting their widespread use. I know that restricting skirts to women is silly, but I would still never be caught wearing one unless the context was intended as being deliberately farcical. I wouldn't turn up to a business meeting wearing a Call of Duty shirt, however much comfortable it is - it has implications both in how we project ourselves to others, but also how we presume others will read us. No matter how much you reduce it to an abstract of 'just wear or do whatever you want', the actual, practical reality will depend on the specific context in which one exists - you may be comfortable and confident enough in yourself to just do whatever you want, that isn't the case for everyone else, especially when that context often involves, 'You are a freak/sinner/diseased person', potentially screamed at them by their own family and 'friends'. For others, that kind of confidence can only come by coupling it with an affirmative statement that cannot wholly be ignored, even if it's just changing the colour of their hair.

Can a transgender person officially change his/her name to male or female or are there legal issues and hidrances (USA mainly)?

Short answer is: Varies. In many countries there's just no legal option whatsoever. In countries like the UK it's generally fine through the same process of changing your name as anyone else. In the USA, it varies state by state. Most allow it in some capacity, but the majority have some particular rule about it - for example, you may need to a get it approved by a court, and to get it approved by a court you very probably need to undergo sex reassignment surgery. For anyone who either does not want that or cannot afford it, that's a bit of a problem. In some cases, they require it to be 'declared' to the community via a public outlet, which basically paints a target on the individual's back in many communities, thus discouraging name changes.

Ok so I have a quick question that I'm still not 100% sure I understand (my other questions were answered in depth early in the the thread, which was a fantastic idea by the way);

If you have always felt you weren't the gender you were born as, and have come out, transitioned, and living your life as your true gender, why do you/members of the community/everyone else still refer to you as trans[gender]? Surely there is a point where you have truly moved to living every aspect of your life as that gender, so why is the trans prefix still applied?

If it is as support for other trans people struggling with coming out I totally get it, I just wondered if there was another reason

NB: the use of 'you' is just as a subject, not referring to the OP or anyone specifically

Because humans are very often sticklers for detail, and a simple 'trans-' prefix helps qualify and contextualise things, particularly for non-transgender people trying to understand the situation. To use a very basic example, telling someone that Caitlyn Jenner is a transwoman helps to clarify potential confusion about the fact that the world once knew them as 'Bruce' - it carries across the point that there was a time that they were assumed male, but now it's recognised they're a woman. It reduces the explanation and clarification into that single prefix.

And yes, it can also be for the sake of providing that signal that continues to affirm that yes, transgender people still exist. There's some hefty debate about this point, but simply becoming 'man' or 'woman' after a transition, without simple acknowledgement of their prior context, can reduce trans visibility but also reinforce the gender binary.
 

Cyanity

Banned
THANK YOU for making this. GAF tries its hardest sometimes, but it's clear that some of our members have a harder time than others when it comes to understanding trans issues.
 

Platy

Member
Ok so I have a quick question that I'm still not 100% sure I understand (my other questions were answered in depth early in the the thread, which was a fantastic idea by the way);

If you have always felt you weren't the gender you were born as, and have come out, transitioned, and living your life as your true gender, why do you/members of the community/everyone else still refer to you as trans[gender]? Surely there is a point where you have truly moved to living every aspect of your life as that gender, so why is the trans prefix still applied?

If it is as support for other trans people struggling with coming out I totally get it, I just wondered if there was another reason

NB: the use of 'you' is just as a subject, not referring to the OP or anyone specifically

Because society sux and it keeps treating you different because of it.

Some people move away any people that know and start a new life in "stealth", but most people can't do it for lots of reasons that range from not wanting to go away from friends to being visibly or audibly trans.

And because if I say I am just a woman people will ask but what I am REALLY are.

And that is ignoring the importance of both the trans and cis suffix for activism
 
Because humans are very often sticklers for detail, and a simple 'trans-' prefix helps qualify and contextualise things, particularly for non-transgender people trying to understand the situation. To use a very basic example, telling someone that Caitlyn Jenner is a transwoman helps to clarify potential confusion about the fact that the world once knew them as 'Bruce' - it carries across the point that there was a time that they were assumed male, but now it's recognised they're a woman. It reduces the explanation and clarification into that single prefix.

And yes, it can also be for the sake of providing that signal that continues to affirm that yes, transgender people still exist. There's some hefty debate about this point, but simply becoming 'man' or 'woman' after a transition, without simple acknowledgement of their prior context, can reduce trans visibility but also reinforce the gender binary.

Because society sux and it keeps treating you different because of it.

Some people move away any people that know and start a new life in "stealth", but most people can't do it for lots of reasons that range from not wanting to go away from friends to being visibly or audibly trans.

And because if I say I am just a woman people will ask but what I am REALLY are.

And that is ignoring the importance of both the trans and cis suffix for activism

Thanks for the in depth replies, I was thinking along those lines but was wondering whether there was a point at which the prefix becomes unnecessary. I guess it's very much down to the individual, but thanks for taking the time to answer
 

Platy

Member
Thanks for the in depth replies, I was thinking along those lines but was wondering whether there was a point at which the prefix becomes unnecessary. I guess it's very much down to the individual, but thanks for taking the time to answer

When society treats trans and cis people as exactly the same without any prejudices

...or bathroom doors
 
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