Have you watched either of those sports and compared it to MMA
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Transgender MMA fighter Fallon Fox fights for $20,000 tonight
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Have you watched either of those sports and compared it to MMA
Napoleonthechimp
Member
I believe there was a bigger fuss made over Fallon Fox when her transgender status was deliberately kept hidden and then later found out after the opponent had been completely trashed.
If a woman knows the full details regarding who she is fighting then it is fair game.
But keeping it secret? Nah.
If a woman knows the full details regarding who she is fighting then it is fair game.
But keeping it secret? Nah.
The man is a previous Taekwondo grand champion and commentates on UFC matches all the time. He knows what he's talking about.
Necromanti
Member
Is there an acceptable range of muscle mass, muscle density, and bone density, for example, for women competing in the MMA? What is the policy for cis-women with different hormonal compositions that may put them above the competition? It's tricky since there will be non-sex-related factors or variances that puts one competitor above the other, biologically. I mean, there was an African runner--I believe--who got accused of being a man in disguise--claiming she had more masculine features--because she had a hormonal abnormality (?) that gave her a physical advantage.
Jest Chillin
Member
You're attributing that quote to Dana White when it was said by Joe Rogan and even states so in the link you provided in your post. Dana similarly doesn't feel Fox should be fighting women but he's not a moron and expresses his opinion on the matter much more respectfully.
He also suspended Matt Mitrione for the "jokes" he made about Fox as well as released (i.e. fired) Miguel Torres for a twitter joke he made about a "rape van." Dana's said plenty of controversial things but there are lines he doesn't cross.
Well if she does obliterate her opponent than that would probably be used against her.
Christopher
BDE (Big Dad Energy)
Who's gotta show you shit who cares what you think?
Pretty progressive and cool to be brave in such a tough sport
Ninja Scooter
Member
from what I've seen of Fox she's not really anything special as a fighter it's just that the comp in women's MMA is so poor right now. This isn't the last time this issue is going to be raised though as the sport gains more and more recognition.
I think you might have quoted the wrong person or misinterpreted the argument but I'm not sure....
Napoleonthechimp
Member
For anyone calling out Joe Rogan for being a dick: Download the numerous podcasts where he's talked about this issue and actually listen to what he's had to say on the matter. Buck Angel (who is friends with Fallon Fox) actually read out an angry response to Rogan's accusations.
I honestly believe that any half decent female fighter wouldn't have much trouble with her.
Lambda Pie
Banned
not really. are people parachuting here even bothering to watch the last fight, linked in the OP?
it's something you'd expect to see at NYE in Japan.
Yes I got them mixed up. I heard Dana carry on about it on Youtube, he was no better.
He just does not have the proper vocabulary to say that sex and gender are not the same thing, and we should not treat them as such.
Epsilon-delta
Banned
I'm just going to say this: Chyna, famous female wrestler that probably used steroids in the past, got beat from pillar to post against Joey Buttafuco in their boxing exhibition match.
Chyna hired a professional trainer for preparation for the fight and busted her butt doing so. She wanted to prove that a strong and in shape woman can beat an out of shape, beer belly man. Buttafuco manhandled her from the opening bell, it was a no contest.
Being a man or was once a man, has it's advantages IMO.
Chyna hired a professional trainer for preparation for the fight and busted her butt doing so. She wanted to prove that a strong and in shape woman can beat an out of shape, beer belly man. Buttafuco manhandled her from the opening bell, it was a no contest.
Being a man or was once a man, has it's advantages IMO.
This is irrelevant to my point, Olympic Judo and Tae Kwon Do are all about scoring points just like fencing so gender is really not that big of deal on the other hand MMA is dominated by the strongest individual and is a full contact sport.
She did us steroids.
OpinionatedCyborg
Member
There are plenty of women with narrow hips and broad shoulders who store their fat a lot like men.They're in the minority, but they exist, just like guys with wide hips and narrow shoulders. I don't Fox has any physical advantages you couldn't find in certain cis-women.
OpinionatedCyborg
Member
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuLWWDoN85E
it helps that he had at least 50 lbs on her and she wasn't the roided out beast she once was
lol watchinv this fight is like watching bob sapp beat the shit out of K1 champions. buttafuoco just grabs and smashes the shit out of her
Ninja Scooter
Member
MMA has weight classes.
Buttafuoco had a pretty clear and sizable size advantage based on weight alone, in shape or not (and it's not like he looks terribly out of shape in that pic)
You still have the bone structure of a man though:broader shoulders, larger hands, etc; plus you have the experience of training as a man as well as having a quicker reaction time than women. There should be a separate transgender league. It's just not fair, and more importantly safe, for a transwoman to be fighting other women.
Necromanti
Member
I'm not sure what that last sentence is supposed to mean, or what that has to do with my post.
Just like Royce Gracie used to regularly submit opponents much bigger than he was. Don't give me that. I am still not convinced, in any way, that Fox has the sort of advantage that could not be overcome through the proper application of technique, speed and skill.
Ninja Scooter
Member
for the record, I am for Man vs Woman MMA as long as there is staggered weight classes. I'd like to see Ronda Rousey fight Mighty Mouse.
So would you say that we should stop segregating sexes in all sports? I mean, that is what it would come down to, right?
Epsilon-delta
Banned
MMA has weight classes.
Buttafuoco had a pretty clear and sizable size advantage based on weight alone, in shape or not (and it's not like he looks terribly out of shape in that pic)
I know MMA has weight classes, I don't think it would have made a difference. I'll use my past military training experience as a reference then.
When I was with the Marines, we did MMA training and a couple of instructors pitted men and women of the same size for fun. Not one woman beat a man of equal size. One came close but that was against a very nerdy guy.
It's pretty apparent on how strong a man is compared to a woman of the same size.
I advise you to at least watch some this if your going to be speaking about this on what is and isn't an advantage. And if your immediate gut reaction is "lol Joe Rogan is just transphobic" than you couldn't be any more wrong. Also it's just very interesting to hear how a trans man feels about this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFe1xEGtpjA
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
It doesn't really bother me to refer to someone by their preferred gender, and I do so, but I know individuals who will generally refer to someone by their birth sex until they've gotten the hormone treatments and surgery, as they simply don't think a person's internal identification has more immanence than the physical reality of their genitalia, chromosomes, muscle development, fat distribution, etc., all of which would align them with a category other than the one with which they might identify, even were we able to prove that there were a a definite neurological root to that identification (and while neurological research does, at present, suggest such a difference may exist on average, it does not necessarily mean that that difference is directly the cause of transgenderism, nor does it come close to explaining how or why that difference exists).
Again, this is not my view nor practice, but it's one that I understand and have trouble demonizing a person for having, given the current state of our understanding of such things. For myself, I don't think it's a big deal to refer to someone as a "she" or "he" as they wish, but I can also see the argument (even if I disagree with it) that, while it's more respectful of the feelings of individuals, it may (or does, depending on your perspective) lack objectivity in a higher sense - and if that's your view, going against your own grain can be difficult, even impossible, and you may not even see the utility in it, anyway.
In general, I think that many of these issues regarding gender are generally in flux right now, and it's hard to see where the ball may land even 50 years from now, let alone a century or more. Perhaps our entire sense of etiquette toward such matters will be different. So I tread lightly, support efforts to raise awareness and stop the greater levels of poverty and violence that affect TG individuals, and do what I can to help while also acknowledging that our understanding of such matters is quite limited, at the present moment, as well as charged heavily with politics and emotions, which can distort our view of reality, whether we're in the right or no.
Males react differently to dehydration. They actually get faster reaction times- females slow down. http://psychcentral.com/news/2012/02/20/dehydration-influences-mood-cognition/35037.html
I wouldn't use that as a definitive example to be honest, no technique involved whatsoever just 2 people slapping each other around
I think in this case it's more like they would have to prove she should be able to fight. This is a a violent sport and someone can be hurt badly. I haven't heard anyone running any kind of test to see if she has any kind of advantage or anything like that other than a few people saying whether or not a transgender woman can fight based off of nothing. Until they can prove without a shadow of a doubt there will be no advantages, they should not run any fights. It's irresponsible.
This happpens because man produces way more testosterone normaly which is a steroid hormone in the basic definition.
According to the last blood test I did...
Free Testosterone :
Normal levels for man : 131,00 to 64,00 pmol/L
Normal levels for woman : 2,40 to 45,00 pmol/L
Total Testosterone :
Normal levels for man from 20 to 49 years : 166,00 to 877,00 ng/dL
Normal levels for woman in ovulatory stage : 9,00 to 109,00 ng/dL
Normal levels for woman taking oral pills : 13,00 to 83,00 ng/dL
For reference, lets imagine a TOTALY RANDOM PEOPLE who takes a daily dose of anti-testosterone like most pre-surgery transgender women....
Free testosterone : 8,73 pmol/L
Total testosterone : 21,00 ng/dL
and people who talk about bone density ...
"In addition, testosterone is essential for health and well-being[4] as well as the prevention of osteoporosis.[5]"
Romars202129
Member
I don't think it's fair either.
johnny_park
Member
Is she the one on the left in the picture?
I've watched plenty of it. I've been involved with combat sports myself. All I'm asking for are perspectives based on research, not emotion. As I said, show me the data and prove me wrong with facts and figures, not gut reactions. The later is all I am seeing here.
We are not comparing a male and a female, we are comparing a trans women who has gone through the whole gamut of processes involved in gender transition with a cis gender women. This includes hormonal therapy and sexual reassignment surgery. That is a world of difference.
I grant you that there are unquestionably some anatomical hold overs for a m2f transgender that may or may not be significant in the context of fighting. More research needed.
So who is commissioning the research for this? This is where the UFC, as the premier MMA organisation, should be taking the lead and putting the issue to bed.
Thanks for the video. I don't follow MMA and had no idea who he was. After watching that, though, I can confidently say that those who dismiss any argument he makes off hand likely have no idea about him either.
rocketknight
Member
It's consistently depressing to read the pile-on responses of people who have no idea what they're talking about, but on the other hand it's great that the organizations and people who actually make the decisions are getting better instead of siding with uninformed kneejerk bigotry.
The promoters are going through with this because of the publicity and money involved. Promoters give 0 fucks about the morality issue other than worrying about how much money they can make off of it.
If there is a lack of research then shouldn't we side on the safety of the fighters?
You just linked to a two and half hour video -- can you maybe tell us where the meat of the conversation is?
i randomly scrolled and caught some stuff in the 1:40ish area
After quickly flying over it I did not read what you stated in the linked article. Would you mind pointing out the paragraph?
Wouldn't it at worst be comparable risk to fighting in a different weight class than your own? I don't necessarily see the grave danger in doing so. On that note apparently the weight cutting prior to fights is quite a big risk.
Yeah, and what about the women she fought who didn't know? Apparently they've been called bigots because they weren't happy getting unknowingly beaten up by a transgendered fighter. Would they have taken the fight had they known?
In my opinion, her unwillingness to come out as transgendered should not have been a priority over full disclosure to her opponents. There's clearly implications in her chosen profession, and I feel it was wrong.
That is a different issue than the one at hand though.
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