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[paile]

I don't think anybody ever said the advantage was insurmountable, and I'm not sure if ONLY an "insurmountable" advantage should disqualify her from competing against cis women. A poker player who can see his opponent's hand can still lose, but that doesn't mean he should be allowed in a tournament.

Yet inherent genetic advantages exist within the sexes anyway. If you want to prevent Fox from competing on these grounds then you might as well genetically screen each fighter before they compete to determine fairness.

Could a cis women come in and display the same kind of strength advantage in such a fight; I believe so. It would be rare, but so is a transgender female MMA fighter.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

I will watch it but I don't think it is a stretch to say that were she better conditioned then she would not be showing such an obvious strength advantage, although it may still well exist. Strength relies on mass and mass and endurance are a trade off.

Looking at that GIF, though, it really does look to me like a masculine strength advantage. Obviously, that's not a scientific measurement, but Fox doesn't really look to have a HUGE mass advantage either way. Strength and mass need only be tangentially connected, as the Starting Strength devotees in the fitness thread will attest to. Some degree of endurance is lost by training for bulk, but from the reports, it seems as though Fox was just poor all around and lost for that reason.

 

[Wafflecakes]

To the first point, and so is being transgendered (it just happens to be really, really improbable). Ditto being born with an intersex condition that happens to make Semenya a more effective woman's athlete. And it's very much comparable, unless one's mind is already made up.

To be out and trans is to subject yourself to suspicion from the get-go, it is the furthest thing from hyperbole. What isn't in any way helpful or productive is pretending society treats transgendered individuals even-handedly and doesn't have outspoken elements wanting to deny them equal opportunity. You get no points from me for trying to pretend stigma doesn't matter.

I suppose I just don't see it as an equality issue. I see it as a fairness issue.

In measuring fairness I don't see where or when societal stigma is relevant.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

Both of these next two fighters look like they just broke out of a methadone clinic. YOU GUYS NEED TO BE WATCHING THIS

 

[Sibylus]

Phelps, Lebron, Megatron...these people are considered genetic freaks because they represent the 99th percentile of physical specimens. Their skill stacked on top of it allows them to beat other top physical specimens at the highest level. Someone like Serena Williams is also a genetic freak of a woman, but you think it would be fair for her to have to play against a TG Nadal or Djokovic? Men have inherent physical advantages over women. It's why mens sports are always played at a higher level of skill and physicality.

If she's ftm trans and is being treated for that? It might very well be competitive, I make no quantitative assertions on the merits or demerits of ladybones.

 

[paile]

I suppose I just don't see it as an equality issue. I see it as a fairness issue.

In measuring fairness I don't see where or when societal stigma is relevant.

Ok, if you want to be fair then screen all female fighters and those that exhibit advantageous traits naturally should be banned also. That's fair.

 

[dream]

Both of these next two fighters look like they just broke out of a methadone clinic. YOU GUYS NEED TO BE WATCHING THIS

one of them HAS A RAT TAIL

edit:

good lord.

 

[Sibylus]

I suppose I just don't see it as an equality issue. I see it as a fairness issue.

In measuring fairness I don't see where or when societal stigma is relevant.

And I don't see where fairness comes in, given that on the balance of the evidence I've been presented with, that mtf trans people (or ftm trans people, for that matter) are so egregiously out of step with their competition that it can't be competitive. Tonight's additional test case didn't exactly give me reason to think otherwise.

And stigma is plenty relevant, because for numerous people, the question on their minds when Fox enters the ring is not, "Is she any good?". It's, "Should 'she' be allowed in there?". It's doubly hard to change attitudes when 'once a man always a man' is not some fringe truism that survives solely amongst swamp people.

 

[Scrabble]

Yet inherent genetic advantages exist within the sexes anyway. If you want to prevent Fox from competing on these grounds then you might as well genetically screen each fighter before they compete to determine fairness.

Could a cis women come in and display the same kind of strength advantage in such a fight; I believe so. It would be rare, but so is a transgender female MMA fighter.

It's not just about strength but the size of her hands. Even if you take an equally strong women, which isn't feasible in her class, she'd still output more power based on the mass of her hands alone. Even if you take an equally "tuff" woman, she'd still take more punishment on account her jaw wouldn't be as strong as a transwoman, and so on. If you display these advantages on an equally skilled fighter, than that creates an insurmountable advantage that goes beyond "genetic freaks" and someone is likely to face serious head trauma, or even worse death.

Do you take issue with a transgender league? Because to me that seems to be the most fair and safest approach to this issue.

 

[paile]

Looking at that GIF, though, it really does look to me like a masculine strength advantage. Obviously, that's not a scientific measurement, but Fox doesn't really look to have a HUGE mass advantage either way. Strength and mass need only be tangentially connected, as the Starting Strength devotees in the fitness thread will attest to. Some degree of endurance is lost by training for bulk, but from the reports, it seems as though Fox was just poor all around and lost for that reason.

I've done kick boxing and seen big beef cakes come in and watch as they get exhausted very, very quickly. The fighters there that did competition fights all followed the same basic archetype of being much slimmer, yet able to go the distance. Fox seems to have a lot of upper body muscle mass (just look at her back and compare with the other fighter), yet to be able to go the distance requires she give that up, and a good deal of strength will go with it.

 

[Sibylus]

It's not just about strength but the size of her hands. Even if you take an equally strong women, which isn't feasible in her class, she'd still output more power based on the mass of her hands alone. Even if you take an equally "tuff" woman, she'd still take more punishment on account her jaw wouldn't be as strong as a transwoman, and so on. If you display these advantages on an equally skilled fighter, than that creates an insurmountable advantage that goes beyond "genetic freaks" and someone is likely to face serious head trauma, or even worse death.

Do you take issue with a transgender league? Because to me that seems to be the most fair and safest approach to this issue.

I'm not sure there would even be enough transgendered people in the sport of approximate skill level to make a league, and I doubt either mtf individuals or ftm individuals would be exactly happy about having to spar against each other.

 

[paile]

Do you take issue with a transgender league? Because to me that seems to be the most fair and safest approach to this issue.

Not overly but the competition would be about three fighters; there's basically not much of a point.

 

[EmiPrime]

The Williams sisters very likely have higher bone density, higher testosterone levels and more muscle mass than their opponents on the world circuit. They have a clear genetic advantage. Should they be banned from women's tennis?

How about basketball players over 6'4"?

All top athletes at the highest levels have a genetic advantage and can reach levels that would be unattainable to most even with training. Not all cis bodies are the same and neither are trans bodies so where do you draw the line?

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

I've done kick boxing and seen big beef cakes come in watch as they get exhausted very, very quickly. The fighters there that did competition fights all followed the same basic archetype of being much slimmer, yet able to go the distance. Fox seems to have a lot of upper body muscle mass (just look at her back and compare with the other fighter), yet to be able to go the distance requires she give that up, and a good deal of strength will go with it.

I'm just saying, one need not be a big beef cake to be strong.

 

[railGUN]

The NHL has no rules against women playing in the league.

 

[Brolic Gaoler]

The Williams sisters very likely have higher bone density, higher testosterone levels and more muscle mass than their opponents on the world circuit. They have a clear genetic advantage. Should they be banned from women's tennis?

How about basketball players over 6'4"?

All top athletes at the highest levels have a genetic advantage and can reach levels that would be unattainable to most even with training. Not all cis bodies are the same and neither are trans bodies so where do you draw the line?

I'm guessing the line gets drawn here. XX/XY.

There's a reason scientists/archaeologists can tell the difference between male and female skeletons. Also, Fox had 30 years of being a male and how that effected his/her body until the gender switch. That's pretty much the equivalent of a woman being on roids, then there's the whole bone structure difference making Fox more resilient to damage/knock out. TKO doesn't take that into account. TKO is more about skill than either of those things.

All other things being equal, a fighter who's been male for 30 years fighting another fighter who's been a woman their whole life will have a distinct advantage.

 

[paile]

I'm guessing the line gets drawn here. XX/XY.

There's a reason scientists/archaeologists can tell the difference between male and female skeletons. Also, Fox had 30 years of being a male and how that effected his/her body until the gender switch. That's pretty much the equivalent of a woman being on roids, then there's the whole bone structure difference making Fox more resilient to damage/knock out. TKO doesn't take that into account. TKO is more about skill than either of those things.

So this women does not qualify?

 

[EmiPrime]

I'm guessing the line gets drawn here. XX/XY.

Not good enough.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klinefelter_syndrome
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_gonadal_dysgenesis

 

[Chamber]

Told you brehs, Fallon is a can. Any legit WMMA fighter would put them thangs on her.

 

[Jest Chillin]

And I don't see where fairness comes in, given that on the balance of the evidence I've been presented with, that mtf trans people (or ftm trans people, for that matter) are so egregiously out of step with their competition that it can't be competitive. Tonight's additional test case didn't exactly give me reason to think otherwise.

I think this is where there is disconnect. Substances that are banned are banned for a few reasons but that they would give one fighter an "egregious" advantage isn't the reason. They're banned because they're dangerous to the person taking them, they are dangerous to the opponent of a fighter who is taking them or they provide an advantage that the other competitor doesn't have access to. It doesn't have to make a fighter unstoppable to be banned.

Is it fair that a fighter may have a genetic advantage? Not at all. But sports are designed to eliminate as many inequalities as possible to provide as close a match up as can be done.

A Transgender fighters genetic advantages are inherently different than the genetic advantages of a CIS fighter. What happens when there is a MtF Transgender fighter whose genetic advantages would have put them in the top performance percentile in Male sports? The performance differences in such a case would be massive.

 

[Brolic Gaoler]

Edit: Not getting into this.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

I'm guessing the line gets drawn here. XX/XY.

Pretty much. One cannot count for genetic variation AMONG individuals of the same sex, but 99.999% of the time, this line is very non-arbitrary in sporting terms.

Edit: Note that I don't mean XX/XY chromosomes specifically, but the sex expression typically associated with them. TG activists often try to point to a very small minority of exceptional circumstances to prove their points, but the line in question is non-ambiguous in almost every case.

 

[Scrabble]

The Williams sisters very likely have higher bone density, higher testosterone levels and more muscle mass than their opponents on the world circuit. They have a clear genetic advantage. Should they be banned from women's tennis?

How about basketball players over 6'4"?

All top athletes at the highest levels have a genetic advantage and can reach levels that would be unattainable to most even with training. Not all cis bodies are the same and neither are trans bodies so where do you draw the line?

The advantages of a transwoman are more than those advantages described. Also the people in those sports aren't beating the everlasting fuck out of one another, it's a bigger difference with contact sports like mma.

It's not about being anti-transgender, it's about being pro-not getting serious head truama or death as a result of an unfair advantage

 

[Pimpwerx]

Ok, if you want to be fair then screen all female fighters and those that exhibit advantageous traits naturally should be banned also. That's fair.

No one cares if one woman has an advantage over another by birthright. The issue is gaining that advantage from not being a woman, which is very much the case here. To say otherwise would ignore the clear and proven physical advantages men have over women. PEACE.

 

[paile]

A Transgender fighters genetic advantages are inherently different than the genetic advantages of a CIS fighter. What happens when there is a MtF Transgender fighter whose genetic advantages would have put them in the top performance percentile in Male sports? The performance differences in such a case would be massive.

I think I can break it down for you. Competitive 1v1 sports are bullshit in general. The result being 'determined' by the right combination of genetics and upbringing to go along with it.

 

[rocketknight]

No one cares if one woman has an advantage over another by birthright. The issue is gaining that advantage from not being a woman, which is very much the case here. To say otherwise would ignore the clear and proven physical advantages men have over women. PEACE.

Oh, Fox wasn't born trans? Who'd she catch it from? What if she infects other fighters?!

 

[Ninja Scooter]

No one cares if one woman has an advantage over another by birthright. The issue is gaining that advantage from not being a woman, which is very much the case here. To say otherwise would ignore the clear and proven physical advantages men have over women. PEACE.

But if you are talking about it from a safety standpoint (which I believe you mentioned earlier, how Ashley could have been really hurt), why does it matter?

 

[Jest Chillin]

I think I can break it down for you. Competitive 1v1 sports are bullshit in general. The result being 'determined' by the right combination of genetics and upbringing to go along with it.

They're not bullshit though. In addition to having leagues, weight classes, and uniform equipment and rulesets.. there's also strategy, technique, determination, and training to overcome genetic disadvantages. The fact is that genetic advantages within the same sex at the highest level of sports are not large and can be overcome. It's not quite so clear at the moment though with regards to Transgender athletes though and with regards to combat sports it could possibly be dangerous.

I think everyone agrees it's a shitty situation all around.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

But if you are talking about it from a safety standpoint (which I believe you mentioned earlier, how Ashley could have been really hurt), why does it matter?

It's not JUST a matter of safety, but of fairness and sportsmanship, as well. Fallon losing does not really change the issue at hand.

 

[Sibylus]

I think this is where there is disconnect. Substances that are banned are banned for a few reasons but that they would give one fighter an "egregious" advantage isn't the reason. They're banned because they're dangerous to the person taking them, they are dangerous to the opponent of a fighter who is taking them or they provide an advantage that the other competitor doesn't have access to. It doesn't have to make a fighter unstoppable to be banned.

Is it fair that a fighter may have a genetic advantage? Not at all. But sports are designed to eliminate as many inequalities as possible to provide as close a match up as can be done.

A Transgender fighters genetic advantages are inherently different than the genetic advantages of a CIS fighter. What happens when there is a MtF Transgender fighter whose genetic advantages would have put them in the top performance percentile in Male sports? The performance differences in such a case would be massive.

And I'm not necessarily convinced that a fighter like Fox is endangering her opponents, which seems to be our main point of difference. If she's pre-treatment and wants to fight? I'm all aboard. Post-treatment eschews nigh all of the advantages cited given enough time, it's a question of how dangerous one thinks that hypothetical margin of hormone-resistant muscle, bone, and whathaveyou is. I've very much had message boards make the claim very loudly that it is indeed very dangerous, but very little of the same from sports facilitators and medical authorities who have to grapple with this question in their lines of work.

 

[EmiPrime]

The advantages of a transwoman are more than those advantages described. Also the people in those sports aren't beating the everlasting fuck out of one another, it's a bigger difference with contact sports like mma.

It's not about being anti-transgender, it's about being pro-not getting serious head truama or death as a result of an unfair advantage

I have some misgivings about a trans woman who transitioned in her 30s doing MMA professionally.

But trans women aren't monolithic, all with the same body type, all starting hormones at the same age and the same effects from puberty (something not all trans women go through). When you try to argue that this is the case and argue for a blanket ban you just show you ignorance. The situation is far more nuanced than that and to dismiss the genetic benefits that cis athletes can have is dishonest.

 

[Cru]

I guess I missed the Fox fight?

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

And I'm not necessarily convinced that a fighter like Fox is endangering her opponents, which seems to be our main point of difference. If she's pre-treatment and wants to fight? I'm all aboard. Post-treatment eschews nigh all of the advantages cited given enough time, it's a question of how dangerous one thinks that hypothetical margin of hormone-resistant muscle, bone, and whathaveyou is. I've very much had message boards make the claim very loudly that it is indeed very dangerous, but very little of the same from sports facilitators and medical authorities who have to grapple with this question in their lines of work.

As I said earlier, though, transgenderism a VERY emotionally- and politically-charged issue at the moment, though, and it seems obvious to me that forum posters are free to express their opinions in a way that sports facilitators and medical authorities probably aren't, given the scrutiny applied by social justice organizations (and unaffiliated social justice warriors on Tumblr and the like). Granted, they're also in a worse position to know specifics, but the point is that the issue does not exist in a vacuum.

 

[Pimpwerx]

The Williams sisters very likely have higher bone density, higher testosterone levels and more muscle mass than their opponents on the world circuit. They have a clear genetic advantage. Should they be banned from women's tennis?

How about basketball players over 6'4"?

All top athletes at the highest levels have a genetic advantage and can reach levels that would be unattainable to most even with training. Not all cis bodies are the same and neither are trans bodies so where do you draw the line?

So they won the genetic lottery, good for them. That's how sports work. However, you don't have men trying to get into women's sports. It's just not right. Women can try to compete with men, and no one has a problem with that. Hell, it's applauded. However, a man has an evolutionary advantage. One that is not completely negated by virtue of a sex change. You could make this argument if this was a pre-pubescent sex change, but that's not the case. We're talking about someone getting the full advantages of being a man before making the switch.

Why on earth would we have sports split by gender if the differences were so negligible or easy to overcome? Hormone therapy doesn't retard the advantage nearly enough.

The line should be drawn where it always has been. Men play with men, and women get to play with anyone if they have the skill. If you choose to change your gender later on in life, then you naturally forfeit the right to compete against the weaker gender. Why can't a mtf fighter just fight with men? Huh? What's so wrong with that? If you were born a man, you stick to fighting men. Otherwise, wait for there to be a league that allows trans fighters to engage in fair battle with one another.

I don't know why women should be forced to overcome any unnatural advantage like that. The same way we have drug testing. Sure, Cyborg has lost fights despite being a roided-up freak, but is it fair that other women should have to overcome that disadvantage? This is one of the most fundamental concepts in athletics IMO. Men are better at sports, so we don't take to embarrassing women. It's not fair and it's not fun. PEACE.

 

[EmiPrime]

As I said earlier, though, transgenderism a VERY emotionally- and politically-charged issue at the moment, though, and it seems obvious to me that forum posters are free to express their opinions in a way that sports facilitators and medical authorities probably aren't, given the scrutiny applied by social justice organizations (and unaffiliated social justice warriors on Tumblr and the like). Granted, they're also in a worse position to know specifics, but the point is that the issue does not exist in a vacuum.

Do you seriously think trans activists have any influence over sporting bodies?

Come on now.

 

[Pimpwerx]

Oh, Fox wasn't born trans? Who'd she catch it from? What if she infects other fighters?!

She wasn't. She was physically born a male. She has a Y chromosome. Trying to bring in the psychological element into a discussion that's strictly based on physical elements is bogus. PEACE.

 

[Pimpwerx]

But if you are talking about it from a safety standpoint (which I believe you mentioned earlier, how Ashley could have been really hurt), why does it matter?

Because at least it's a woman punishing another woman in what's a level playing field. Jon Bones has a freakish advantage over his competition, but no one complains. If Superman decided to become a fighter because he fought with a kryptonite belt, people would think it unfair, even if he loses. He's clearly born with more than a human. PEACE.

 

[Sibylus]

As I said earlier, though, transgenderism a VERY emotionally- and politically-charged issue at the moment, though, and it seems obvious to me that forum posters are free to express their opinions in a way that sports facilitators and medical authorities probably aren't, given the scrutiny applied by social justice organizations (and unaffiliated social justice warriors on Tumblr and the like). Granted, they're also in a worse position to know specifics, but the point is that the issue does not exist in a vacuum.

This is of course true, but as EmiPrime says, I'm a bit doubtful about the influence that trans lobbies have in sporting over, say, facilitators losing huge amounts of profit if their handful of trans athletes mop the floor with everyone.

 

[Scrabble]

I have some misgivings about a trans woman who transitioned in her 30s doing MMA professionally.

But trans women aren't monolithic, all with the same body type, all starting hormones at the same age and the same effects from puberty (something not all trans women go through). When you try to argue that this is the case and argue for a blanket ban you just show you ignorance. The situation is far more nuanced than that and to dismiss the genetic benefits that cis athletes can have is dishonest.

How am I in any way dismissing the genetic benefits of cis athletes? I've never discredited them or even hinted that they aren't a factor, but I don't think they are a bigger advantage than a trans woman competing with a cis women. Also what your advocating seems to be a case by case evaluation on who is allowed to fight and who isn't. If were getting into that kind of regulation than obviously there would be a place for a transgender league. In fact it would probably be more competitive than women's mma.

 

[oatmeal]

Is it over?

 

[Ninja Scooter]

Is it over?

Fallon Fox' MMA career? Probably yes.

 

[EmiPrime]

So they won the genetic lottery, good for them. That's how sports work. However, you don't have men trying to get into women's sports. It's just not right. Women can try to compete with men, and no one has a problem with that. Hell, it's applauded. However, a man has an evolutionary advantage. One that is not completely negated by virtue of a sex change. You could make this argument if this was a pre-pubescent sex change, but that's not the case. We're talking about someone getting the full advantages of being a man before making the switch.

Why on earth would we have sports split by gender if the differences were so negligible or easy to overcome? Hormone therapy doesn't retard the advantage nearly enough.

The line should be drawn where it always has been. Men play with men, and women get to play with anyone if they have the skill. If you choose to change your gender later on in life, then you naturally forfeit the right to compete against the weaker gender. Why can't a mtf fighter just fight with men? Huh? What's so wrong with that? If you were born a man, you stick to fighting men. Otherwise, wait for there to be a league that allows trans fighters to engage in fair battle with one another.

I don't know why women should be forced to overcome any unnatural advantage like that. The same way we have drug testing. Sure, Cyborg has lost fights despite being a roided-up freak, but is it fair that other women should have to overcome that disadvantage? This is one of the most fundamental concepts in athletics IMO. Men are better at sports, so we don't take to embarrassing women. It's not fair and it's not fun. PEACE.

You don't get to call trans women men and then end your post with "PEACE".

Where's the report post function?

 

[Sibylus]

So they won the genetic lottery, good for them. That's how sports work. However, you don't have men trying to get into women's sports. It's just not right. Women can try to compete with men, and no one has a problem with that. Hell, it's applauded. However, a man has an evolutionary advantage. One that is not completely negated by virtue of a sex change. You could make this argument if this was a pre-pubescent sex change, but that's not the case. We're talking about someone getting the full advantages of being a man before making the switch.

Why on earth would we have sports split by gender if the differences were so negligible or easy to overcome? Hormone therapy doesn't retard the advantage nearly enough.

The line should be drawn where it always has been. Men play with men, and women get to play with anyone if they have the skill. If you choose to change your gender later on in life, then you naturally forfeit the right to compete against the weaker gender. Why can't a mtf fighter just fight with men? Huh? What's so wrong with that? If you were born a man, you stick to fighting men. Otherwise, wait for there to be a league that allows trans fighters to engage in fair battle with one another.

I don't know why women should be forced to overcome any unnatural advantage like that. The same way we have drug testing. Sure, Cyborg has lost fights despite being a roided-up freak, but is it fair that other women should have to overcome that disadvantage? This is one of the most fundamental concepts in athletics IMO. Men are better at sports, so we don't take to embarrassing women. It's not fair and it's not fun. PEACE.

You can't be serious. For all the talk about dangerous fights, you're suggesting post-treatment mtf trans individuals fight men? What's wrong with it is that you'd be constricting them to categories where they're going to be beat the hell up or simply not fight. Not exactly competitive.

 

[paile]

So they won the genetic lottery, good for them. That's how sports work. However, you don't have men trying to get into women's sports. It's just not right. Women can try to compete with men, and no one has a problem with that. Hell, it's applauded. However, a man has an evolutionary advantage. One that is not completely negated by virtue of a sex change. You could make this argument if this was a pre-pubescent sex change, but that's not the case. We're talking about someone getting the full advantages of being a man before making the switch.

Why on earth would we have sports split by gender if the differences were so negligible or easy to overcome? Hormone therapy doesn't retard the advantage nearly enough.

The line should be drawn where it always has been. Men play with men, and women get to play with anyone if they have the skill. If you choose to change your gender later on in life, then you naturally forfeit the right to compete against the weaker gender. Why can't a mtf fighter just fight with men? Huh? What's so wrong with that? If you were born a man, you stick to fighting men. Otherwise, wait for there to be a league that allows trans fighters to engage in fair battle with one another.

I don't know why women should be forced to overcome any unnatural advantage like that. The same way we have drug testing. Sure, Cyborg has lost fights despite being a roided-up freak, but is it fair that other women should have to overcome that disadvantage? This is one of the most fundamental concepts in athletics IMO. Men are better at sports, so we don't take to embarrassing women. It's not fair and it's not fun. PEACE.

An entire post based on conjecture. Here's the logic flow -

Man has advantage over women.
Man becomes women.
Man retains advantage over women.

Point three is completely open to debate. It is debated on forums. It is debated in the medical community. It is debated in administrative sporting authorities. Yet you act as though it's a closed and shut case and that you know better than everyone else.

You want to talk about what nots fair and non fun? There you go. And a trans women fight a cisgendered man? I've never heard of anything so ridiculous.

 

[Jest Chillin]

And I'm not necessarily convinced that a fighter like Fox is endangering her opponents, which seems to be our main point of difference. If she's pre-treatment and wants to fight? I'm all aboard. Post-treatment eschews nigh all of the advantages cited given enough time, it's a question of how dangerous one thinks that hypothetical margin of hormone-resistant muscle, bone, and whathaveyou is. I've very much had message boards make the claim very loudly that it is indeed very dangerous, but very little of the same from sports facilitators and medical authorities who have to grapple with this question in their lines of work.

That's because they can't say one way or the other without tons and tons of data and the relative danger involved in combat sports. Any single punch from any fighter regardless of Age, Weight, Sex, or shoe size could be lethal. The only thing that can be done is put in rules and equipment to lessen that possibility as much as possible. And that's why we're here discussing what we're discussing because a Transgender fighter is a variable that can't be controlled. So that leaves rules and whether or not there should be a rule in place to allow or disallow her to fight CIS women.

I guess I missed the Fox fight?

Yup. It actually came on fairly early in the card.

 

[Pimpwerx]

You don't get to call trans women men and then end your post with "PEACE".

Where's the report post function?

Report it all you want. I've used "she" throughout. I'm not getting banned for anything I'm saying here.

She was born with a Y chromosome. Am I lying? No.

XY chromosomes are called men until they declare or have some op. Am I lying? No.

She didn't change her gender at birth. Therefore, she was born a damn man. FFS, stop trying to warp the fucking English language to make people in this thread seem like bad guys. Hate me all you want, but I'm not insulting anyone. PEACE.

 

[EmiPrime]

How am I in any way dismissing the genetic benefits of cis athletes? I've never discredited them or even hinted that they aren't a factor, but I don't think they are a bigger advantage than a trans woman competing with a cis women. Also what your advocating seems to be a case by case evaluation on who is allowed to fight and who isn't. If were getting into that kind of regulation than obviously there would be a place for a transgender league. In fact it would probably be more competitive than women's mma.

I wasn't advocating anything, I was merely pointing out how diverse trans bodies are, something you continue to ignore. The medical advisors for MMA gave Fallon the all clear and ultimately that's good enough for me.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

Do you seriously think trans activists have any influence over sporting bodies?

Come on now.

I think sporting bodies are populated with individuals who have to live within the same society as the rest of us, one in which there have been a number of VERY high-profile cases re: transgender individuals claiming discrimination, just or not, in recent months and years. Or perhaps they simply felt the publicity of having a trans fighter outweighed concerns of safety and fairness? It's not as though WMMA is breaking PPV or ticket sales records. My main point is that it's not as though the motivations of the promoters and medical professionals in question need be treated as totally benevolent. All we have are the plain, unadorned facts, which don't, to many of us, support the idea that there is enough scientifically sound evidence to suggest that it is a good idea to assume no pertinent differences between women and transwomen. Again, if the evidence is not conclusive either way, I see no reason other than tangential political motivation NOT to err on the side of caution and common sense.

 

[Pimpwerx]

You can't be serious. For all the talk about dangerous fights, you're suggesting post-treatment mtf trans individuals fight men? What's wrong with it is that you'd be constricting them to categories where they're going to be beat the hell up or simply not fight. Not exactly competitive.

Seems like you do understand what others are saying in here then. PEACE.

 

[Pimpwerx]

An entire post based on conjecture. Here's the logic flow -

Man has advantage over women.
Man becomes women.
Man retains advantage over women.

Point three is completely open to debate. It is debated on forums. It is debated in the medical community. It is debated in administrative sporting authorities. Yet you act as though it's a closed and shut case and that you know better than everyone else.

You want to talk about what nots fair and non fun? There you go. And a trans women fight a cisgendered man? I've never heard of anything so ridiculous.

It's open to debate is a nice way of saying, "I can't prove it's not the case." Here's a fact. Skeletal structure doesn't change with hormone therapy. Hey...there's one of the advantages retained right there. PEACE.