A trans women fighting a cisgendered man is not comparable in any way to a trans women fighting a women.
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Transgender MMA fighter Fallon Fox fights for $20,000 tonight
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A trans women fighting a cisgendered man is not comparable in any way to a trans women fighting a women.
You called trans women men and said that they should compete against other men in sport. That's extremely transphobic.
And don't do the chromosome argument, it's nonsense as already touched on earlier.
Why is it an advantage when the genetic traits of women like Serena Williams are not considered to be an advantage?
But is that truly an advantage or just a perceived one? I haven't been through most of this thread so I don't know if this has been proven yet. Last I checked skeletal structure doesn't actually effect strength but I might be wrong.
So than what are you saying? Do you believe that under no circumstance should a transwoman be denied to fight a ciswoman? Because you clearly stated that advocating for an all right ban "would be showing my ignorance." So than clearly you support regulation and a case by case basis on which transwomen would be allowed to fight and who wouldn't right? And again, if were getting into that kind of regulation, than obviously the completion is high and competitive enough to support a transgender league.
Also please quit saying things about me that aren't true. I'm not ignoring anything, nor did I deny genetic benefits. What next are you going to say that isn't true?
You're allowed an advantage by birthright, not by changing gender.
Trans fighters fight in the original sex class they were born with. If you're born XY, you fight other XYs. If you're born XX, you can fight anyone. It's not nonsense because you say it is. This is why she's not fighting in the UFC. If that's transphobic, then you've warped the suffix "phobic" and there's no point even talking to you.
Again, don't try and change the English language to suit your needs and paint people in a negative light. No one here has made any personal attacks on anyone. This is a discussion of a contentious topic, and the severe lack of facts is the only reason it hasn't ended. You want to prove your point? Come with some better facts. The people putting their lives on the line don't seem to share your opinion, and the only reason some of these women have taken these fights is because they've been paid to do so.
If you watch MMA much, watch the first two rounds and see strength overcome technique. That's all I gotta say on this. Being called transphobic for having a differing opinion and stating an actual fact is enough for me. I get the sense a lot of the people in favor of this haven't actually watched the fight. PEACE.
Oh...I didn't read like...half of this page. I saw the GIF, and then didn't really refresh. Whoops!
So Ashlee won? Good for her.
Because Serena Williams wasn't a man 12 years ago
And it's a relative danger all sorts of women have been allowed to hash out regardless of genetic and phenotypal variation, up until the point of the introduction of trans women. I'm not convinced the danger is such that precedent has to be overturned and the sport can't hash things out like it has done in the past.
If that's what they're saying, then they're at a bit of a loss to explain tonight, or the sum of trans participation in athletics, really. There is a remarkable dearth of evidence of the alleged inevitable death and dismemberment that trans athletes are supposed to be causing. Peace.
Jest Chillin
Member
There are no "medical advisors for MMA" at least not as you put it. There are Doctors that specialize is sports and there are Sports Doctors who work with Athletic Commissions who then take that data and determine rules but that all varies. There is no one MMA organization that employs Doctors who solely work with MMA fighters and study them.
Hell at the level she's fighting, I doubt that any of the Doctors that Fallon Fox used for her pre-fight physicals specialize in MMA and they definitely weren't looking for anything that would give her an advantage. They just check to make sure she's healthy enough to fight.
Not all trans women have the same skeletal structure. How many more times does this need to be said?
Muscle mass, tendons, fat distribution, skin, ligaments, cartilage etc. all change dramatically through HRT so much so that it's fairly typical for trans women to go down 2 or 3 shoes sizes.
Muscle mass, tendons, fat distribution, skin, ligaments, cartilage etc. all change dramatically through HRT so much so that it's fairly typical for trans women to go down 2 or 3 shoes sizes.
I was thinking about something, With transwomen, they can most probably set up their hormone therapy routine so that their testosterone levels lie in the upper 1%. Biological women can't achieve something like this unless they dope, which isn't allowed. This seems unfair to me.
Correlation =/= causation. Not only that but the only facts I have seen from you are an appeal to authority fallacy. You want to prove there is an advantage and we want to prove there isn't. Both sides have failed to do so in anywhere near absolute terms
Once again, I wasn't advocating any such "case by case" regulation. I don't think you read my post.
Jest Chillin
Member
Well yeah. As it's been said it can't be proved one way or the other until there's a lot more research done. Anecdotally (probably not a word. ;/ ) however, despite the arguments in this thread over the idea of a physical advantage... visually she does appear to have one. And for those of us who watch the sport for years and are very well versed in how fighters perform relative to each other.. it's noticeably a larger physical advantage over her opponents than any other fighter in the sport.
Based upon what? Prejudice. The challenge was basically put to you to show me the advantage Fox has does exceed that of natural genetic diversity in cisgendered women.
Shall we consider it challenge FAILED like the rest of your failure of a transphobic argument?
So why err on the side of assuming there's no advantage? You err on the side of caution. Until you can prove there's no advantage, stick to what it is right now. The debate seems to be that it's a debatable topic, so she should be allowed to fight. WTF? Really?
And I ask again...has anyone in favor of her fighting actually watched the fight? How can you continue discussing this without taking in at least a sample of what some of us are talking about? PEACE.
Let me just break it down for you.
Testosterone is predominately produced by the testes. Fox does not have these anymore. Testosterone is also produced by ovaries in small amounts. Fox does not have these either.
So where exactly is the unfairness coming from with regard to hormonal advantage?
Have you watched the fight? Watch it, then we'll talk about how some of what she did looked simply unnatural for a women's fight. I'm not even pretending to have facts one way or another, other than skeletal structure doesn't change. Stronger jaw takes more punishment. Bigger hands deliver more punishment. It's certainly more than you've managed to prove in this thread. PEACE.
I've seen her fight before. I don't need to see every occasion in which she has fought to comment on the topic. Her strength comes from her upper body mass advantage, the downside of which is her poor endurance.
How is a trans woman who doesn't have any testes going to manipulate her testosterone levels with estrogen HRT?
Not all transwomen have that surgery.
You're commenting about this specific fight without having watched it, though.
You've drawn ridiculous conclusions from those fights then. This is her best opponent to date, and she still showed signs of having an advantage. PEACE.
Fox has. Transwomen should not be able to compete without having that done and without being on hormonal therapy for a prolonged period of time.
The debate is if she has an advantage or not. This argument has doesn't the ability to effect if she can fight or not. She is fighting, that is a fact. If we were to stick with what is and make her fight men it would be inarguable if the men had an advantage or not. They would stomp her. Is that right and fair or would she fighting other woman be more fair?
There's more than 2 options here. I'll let you guess what a third one is. PEACE.
Jest Chillin
Member
I would suggest that to be truly informed, you should watch all her fights. And I would suggest watching the fights of Ronda Rousey, Meisha Tate, Sarah McMann and Cris "Cyborg" Sanchez as well. The listed women are at the top of the sport while Fallon Fox is at the very bottom. The comparative difference in strength exhibited is visibly noticeable when comparing Fox to all of those fighters except for Cris Sanchez. And Cris Sanchez has used anabolic steroids in the past.
Edit: Also.. Fox isn't particularly muscular. So the theory that her poor endurance is due to body mass advantage seems... odd to say the least. Given that she's at the beginning of her career and in a league of rather poor athletes in general, it's much more likely she just doesn't do enough cardio training.
You only need to see that gif to understand where her strength advantage comes from. I'll watch the fight when I am able to but my opinions are not going to change.
When Fallon Fox is still throwing her opponents around like rag dolls late in the third round I am going to be more inclined to listen. Until then, she is little more than the Brock Lesner of the women division. All size and strength and little skill or endurance.
The world has neither enough trans-fighters or acceptance for a trans only league. Segregating them is also just plain insulting. Back at 2 options again.
The Faceless Master
Member
like lots of cis male athletes do to their cis male opponents and lots of cis female atheletes do to their cis female opponents? technique winning over strength is not some bizarre shit.
fairly well against inside leg kicks?
So she does more cardio training...a side effect of which will be decreased muscle mass and decreased strength. This stuff is pretty basic.
Epsilon-delta
Banned
So you're saying its pointless to even have this discussion in the first place if your mind is already made up. You and everyone who disagrees with you, have obviously come to an impasse.
It's best to let this thread die.
No, it's not. Her tank is just shitty. There are lots of small people with terrible gas tanks. Fighters making the distance doesn't come at loss of mass. The UFC champs all can go 5 rounds, and don't sacrifice mass to do so. GSP and Bones are two of the biggest fighters in their weight classes, and both have solid conditioning. If what you say is true, then the only guys who could go the distance would be small guys, and that's far from true.
This. I'm officially out. PEACE.
I have, please explain what you mean. I don't know how else I'm to perceive "blanket ban" as being a sign of ignorance, that doesn't entail advocating in some way some sort of case by case regulation.
rocketknight
Member
The NCAA requires two years of appropriate hormone therapy, I think. The Olympics requires that plus reassignment surgery. The former is much less discriminatory (reassignment surgery is out of reach for a lot of people who want/need it due to bigoted insurance exclusions among other reasons) but both work across the board and not on a case-by-case basis.
robertsan21
Member
i kind of think a man fighting a woman is wrong.
She was born a man, she has the traits of a man, bone structure, muscles etc a clear advantage over a woman. It´s just crazy that they would allow it.
But I guess if the women fighting are ok with allowing transgendered to enter the womens MMA, then I guess it´s ok.
much like the runner in the olympic scandal.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/caster-semenya-forced-gender-test-woman-man-article-1.176427
She was born a man, she has the traits of a man, bone structure, muscles etc a clear advantage over a woman. It´s just crazy that they would allow it.
But I guess if the women fighting are ok with allowing transgendered to enter the womens MMA, then I guess it´s ok.
much like the runner in the olympic scandal.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/caster-semenya-forced-gender-test-woman-man-article-1.176427
The ignorant transphobia goes on.
well I have to say that people dont quite grasp transgender if they think someone goes through all the therapy and treatments, just to get an edge in mma and sneak one over on us by skipping therapy before a match...
weight and strength is all that matters in a fight. and even then, a smaller foe might gain an upper hand. assuming this isnt foxs huge scam on the world, id assume they are lifting around the same amount of weight, running just as far, and both maxing out at the same weight @ the gym.
not exactly a testosterone fueled athelete. imo. that's why this looks to be a more fair matchup than the last fight. those two didnt seem to be well paired.
now if fox is pushing ,100s of lbs more than anyone in the gym, and running further, well it's never going to be competitive.
I want you to know you are wrong on several of those traits and would also like to point you to a post I made earlier
Edit for Pimpwerx: that's fine, I agree we have reached an impasse that doesn't seem like it will be reconciled anytime soon.
robertsan21
Member
I am ok with transgender, I am just saying that if the women of MMA dont feel like fighting someone that was born a man with obvious muscles and other benefits that a man has in sports compared to women. then there should be some sort of rule that excludes transgender from the women MMA.
Basically you called a transwomen a man. To me you're nothing but another ignorant bigot in a sea of them and I have no interest to further any discussion with you. Your words, personally, hurt me.
Your points have also been made, dismissed and made again countless times in this thread already.
usernamechange
Member
shes a woman. she isnt a man fighting women. also why did she lose if she has such a clear advantage
robertsan21
Member
I am sorry, have edited my post and changed he to she. I didnt mean to offend anyone.
Bpatrol:
Obviously she didnt have any advantages here, but what I am saying is that, if you read my first post, that if women do have an issue with allowing transgendered into their sport, then it should really be up to them. thats all I am saying, cause there could be a clear advantage, even if this fight ended with a loss for the transgendered person.
rocketknight
Member
Fornaximus
Member
That's ugly. There is no hate in his posts. You do a disservice to the fight against real bigotry when you lump things like that into the same category.
Just because you choose to dismiss them does not mean they are dismissed.
Jest Chillin
Member
I didn't say it was bizarre. I pointed it out because the comment I was replying to said that winning on the ground was a good measure of a pure strength matchup. You clearly can see that comment, so my guess is you're comment was made to antagonize me because otherwise I don't see how you could misconstrue my point.
She'll increase cardio while still doing strength training. There are plenty of athletes in MMA who are both strong and have great cardio.
Having an advantage doesn't mean you can't lose. And an advantage doesn't have to be massive for whatever is giving the advantage to be banned. Obviously in Fox's case it's not as simple as when we're talking about Substances or Attire but Fox doesn't need to be lifting women over her head with one hand for her to have an advantage that is unfair for the other women in the division.
The Faceless Master
Member
someone needs to come up with some sort of chart or formula that shows the maximum advantage a genetically born female woman can potentially have without any cheating and just the natural luck of being the absolute pinnacle of natural born female genetics and then check any MtF Transwomen that wants to compete with women that same chart to see if they would be allowed. i mean, since it's all science fact and all, someone should just make a chart... solve the debate once and for all!
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