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[RockTurtle]

Listen I'm all for people doing whatever they want to do in life as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. Guys want to marry guys? No problem. Feel like you identify more with a women and want a sex change? Its your life and if its what makes you happy than go for it.
But don' t try to roll up in a pickup truck with a hemi engine and try to tell me its a fucking Mazda Miata just because you put 14inch rims and tires on it.

dude learn to read the mood.

 

[AMUSIX]

Listen I'm all for people doing whatever they want to do in life as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. Guys want to marry guys? No problem. Feel like you identify more with a women and want a sex change? Its your life and if its what makes you happy than go for it.
But don' t try to roll up in a pickup truck with a hemi engine and try to tell me its a fucking Mazda Miata just because you put 14inch rims and tires on it.

And now I'm glad I stayed through the whole thread.

 

[Fahrenheit]

This is such a fallacy. Should steroids also be made legal on account "well this one player used them, and he's no Lebron James." It's a silly stance to take, especially when the sport entails beating the everlasting fuck out of one another. You really want a transwoman of equal or even greater skill to be in the ring with a ciswoman? That's just asking for serious head trauma, or even death.

Hey man I agree I was just tying to be funny. Like I said before whatever sanctioning body MMA uses that aloud a genetic male to fight genetic females is wrong.

 

[railGUN]

Listen I'm all for people doing whatever they want to do in life as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. Guys want to marry guys? No problem. Feel like you identify more with a women and want a sex change? Its your life and if its what makes you happy than go for it.
But don' t try to roll up in a pickup truck with a hemi engine and try to tell me its a fucking Mazda Miata just because you put 14inch rims and tires on it.

For fucks sake. I'm at a loss.

 

[jonno394]

I was having a discussing with a colleague a few days back and he is passionate about athletics and he is getting tired of people from one country representing another even though they weren't born there and have no links to it other than moving yo the country to live there to be able to represent said country.

He is of the opinion that whatever it states on your birth ceritificate should be the deciding factor. Im sure if i showed him this thread he'd say the same thing.

 

[Jest Chillin]

Nope, and I bet most of the average skilled female fighters could take her. I saw some of her last fights and she was just facing bad opponents, that is why she looked so dominant.

Fox has been fighting opponents who are fairly new to the sport. Likewise, Fox is fairly new to the sport. So her skill level is pretty equal relative to her opponents. While new, Smith (if I'm remembering correctly) was a wrestler in both high school and college. She has a base that not many in Womens MMA currently have and it's what won her this fight. If/When Fox starts rounding out her skills rather than just depending on her strength to compensate for lack of technical skill.. she'd shoot up the ranks big time.

As for Smith.. she put on an impressive performance so I wouldn't be surprised to hear that she signs to Invicta FC (the premier Womens organization) or possibly even to the UFC.

I find this "safety" argument to be pretty stupid. It is a contact sport after all. I am pretty sure Cyborg hits as strong as Fox. Should Cyborg be banned from MMA? If another woman hits as strong as Fox, should her also be banned?

Cyborg has popped hot in the past for anabolic steroids so there's a belief that she's as strong as she is due to steroid use. So she's not really a great example. Aside from Cyborg, I don't think there's any other woman that I've seen thus far that has comparable strength to Fox.

 

[Fusebox]

The force difference between MMA athletes is where the problem lies, because some don't even punch, they wrestle, or submit.

Please name one current MMA fighter who hasn't thrown a punch in a fight.

 

[Reneledarker]

Please name one current MMA fighter who hasn't thrown a punch in a fight.

I think a good measure would be to compare her with female boxers. I doubt she hits as hard as a female boxer.

 

[A More Normal Bird]

Please name one current MMA fighter who hasn't thrown a punch in a fight.

Jake Shields.

 

[Jest Chillin]

Please name one current MMA fighter who hasn't thrown a punch in a fight.

The fact that there was just a Jake Shields fight this week makes this comment ripe for a joke response. haha..

Edit: LOL Called it!

 

[Fusebox]

Jake Shields.

He throws punches, he just doesn't land them.

 

[railGUN]

Please name one current MMA fighter who hasn't thrown a punch in a fight.

I didn't say they didn't throw them, but that who do you pick from an MMA weight class to use as the metric?

 

[Fusebox]

I didn't say they didn't throw them, but that who do you pick from an MMA weight class to use as the metric?

You did, you said some MMA fighters don't even punch. And I don't know, just average out punch force for her weightclass in both male and female divisions and see where she lands. The real test would be trying to find out whether she's deliberately not punching at full strength during the test.

 

[SRTtoZ]

Jake Shields.

I'm staying out of this topic/debate but holy shit did I laugh.

 

[Row]

The loss is good for the cause I suppose

 

[railGUN]

You did, you said some MMA fighters don't even punch. And I don't know, just average out punch force for her weightclass in both male and female divisions and see where she lands. The real test would be trying to find out whether she's deliberately not punching at full strength during the test.

I mean as a primary attack. You can be an MMA fighter and not be a slugger. My point was the diversity of fighters in a class is huge, not that there are completely punch less fighters. I think it's a bad way to determine eligibility for trans gendered fighters.

Edit: and my response was to picking "a" fighter, not an average. Which was why I brought up the different styles.

 

[Fusebox]

It'd be a potentially useful component of a suite of tests that may go some way to answering the questions being asked about strength in this thread and I don't think we should dismiss it so quickly.

 

[railGUN]

It'd be a potentially useful component of a suite of tests that can answer the questions being asked in this thread and I don't think we should dismiss it so quickly.

Sure, I wouldn't disagree to that.

 

[Jeff Albertson]

Ironically the closest thing to hate and ignorance in this thread has been from one poster being overly defensive and quick to jump on people for a viewpoint.

For me it's a tricky one we need to get to as close to full equality as possible but there are a few circumstances where it isn't possible in my view, this for me at least until it's proven without doubt there is no advantage is one of those situations.

I don't think its fair that several posters in this thread have put over fair arguments yet have to fear getting called out as transphobic for saying so.

As it turns out it seems the fighter in question isn't all that good but the precedent is an interesting one

 

[rocketknight]

For what it's worth, searching the thread's pages for "transph" results in more posts claiming that people are calling other people transphobic than there are actual posts calling people transphobic. Is the PC police call coming from inside the house??

(Seriously. I just checked. This is the shit I can be coerced to do at 3AM on Sunday mornings. Meet the Press cannot come soon enough. Someone help me.)

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

It would take many years, if not decades for there to be any changes to a transgender woman's bone structure and density. Just because you cut off your testicles doesn't mean those advantages instantly disappear.

Basically you called a transwomen a man. To me you're nothing but another ignorant bigot in a sea of them and I have no interest to further any discussion with you. Your words, personally, hurt me.

Your points have also been made, dismissed and made again countless times in this thread already.

If I instinctively call someone a man based on my perception of that individual then in your book that would make me a bigot? There would be no conscious intent to do so, but the action would instantly bring a negative judgment on that person's character by you.

Don't go around engineering hatred because you'll only ever end up bringing it on yourself in the end.

 

[Phat Michael]

Jake Shields.

I lolled hard at this.

 

[Phat Michael]

He throws punches, he just doesn't land them.

That would be matt riddle. Dont make me queue up the sherdog gif.

 

[rocketknight]

This is the original robertsan21 post you are beating up on paile for criticizing. If you want to toss your hat into the ring behind that, whatever. But it would be great if people could quit acting like popping in on the seventh page of a thread to be the first person using the wrong pronouns (and again, this is something robertsan21 has done before) is completely okay behavior, and that paile was totally beyond the pale in finding that offensive. It was offensive. It has been edited to be better. But you're jumping on her for calling out the unedited post when the unedited post deserved to be called out, regardless of your opinion on trans MMA combatants.

 

[GillianSeed79]

Ironically the closest thing to hate and ignorance in this thread has been from one poster being overly defensive and quick to jump on people for a viewpoint.

For me it's a tricky one we need to get to as close to full equality as possible but there are a few circumstances where it isn't possible in my view, this for me at least until it's proven without doubt there is no advantage is one of those situations.

I don't think its fair that several posters in this thread have put over fair arguments yet have to fear getting called out as transphobic for saying so.

As it turns out it seems the fighter in question isn't all that good but the precedent is an interesting one

To be fair though, where do you live? We're pretty open on GAF, but there's a lot of places or actually probably a scant few places outside of GAF where Trans people can be open. I imagine it might be something where if you are trans in the real world and have to deal with transphobia it can manifest itself in every conversation because you are probably so used to people being so anti-trans and all that. Yeah, I think sometimes those in the trans community on GAF can be a little defensive, but we should probably put ourselves in their shoes for a little. GAF is probably the only respite they get from the real world, at least in respect to where they live in some places.

 

[kirblar]

Jake Shields.

Jake Shields has been a literal shell of his former self since going to the UFC. He's been cutting to a weight class his body clearly isn't comfortable at. He looks emaciated.

 

[MWS Natural]

The Williams sisters very likely have higher bone density, higher testosterone levels and more muscle mass than their opponents on the world circuit. They have a clear genetic advantage. Should they be banned from women's tennis??

Really? People on GAF always get all kinds of stupid when trying to prove their point.

I guess you gets kudos for not invoking Natural's law and saying all black people.

 

[Amalthea]

This thread in a nutshell:

 

[robertsan21]

This is the original robertsan21 post you are beating up on paile for criticizing. If you want to toss your hat into the ring behind that, whatever. But it would be great if people could quit acting like popping in on the seventh page of a thread to be the first person using the wrong pronouns (and again, this is something robertsan21 has done before) is completely okay behavior, and that paile was totally beyond the pale in finding that offensive. It was offensive. It has been edited to be better. But you're jumping on her for calling out the unedited post when the unedited post deserved to be called out, regardless of your opinion on trans MMA combatants.

as I said earlier I am sorry that I wrote he instead of she. It was not my intention to be rude. so I edited my post quite quicjly. I dont blame Paile for being defensive or being hurt by my post as it was not my intention. So please everyone just stop jumping on Paile and let´s move this discussion forward.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

This thread in a nutshell:

It's a highly physical contact sport where the size of your fists and entire skeletal structure is highly relevant. Those things absolutely developed in the first 20 years of Fallon Fox's life, a period of time where her body was flooded with testosterone.

If people are getting butt hurt because we're not burying our heads in the sands in order to spare the feelings of transgender women, then tough luck. This "problem" is a very specific issue that relates to contact sports and nothing else so stop with the assertions that we're bigots for (apparently) not accepting transgender women as actual women.

 

[joshcryer]

Good for Ashlee. Still trying to find this fight. I saw the end game (ref ended it fair and square from what I saw). From what I read Fallon landed or made some seriously punches though. Wish this fight was streamed somewhere. The endgame (on YouTube in shit quality) was a nice watch, but I want to see the whole fight.

Those things absolutely developed in the first 20 years of Fallon Fox's life, a period of time where her body was flooded with testosterone.

Erm, no. Human muscle fiber area does not change, it is immutable. Fallon had every advantage in this fight, testosterone or not. Ashlee was the underdog the whole way. The male sex, by virtue of genetics, has 100x the muscle fiber area of females. (I can cite scientific sources if you dispute this.) There's no contest. Ashlee, from what I read of the fight, got lucky. I could be wrong, haven't seen the fight, I'm just saying, she was at a significant disadvantage. Even the betting was against her. The end game that I saw, and the post-fight interview, she even admitted that her ground game was what made her succeed. She was more about pinning and pummeling.

 

[Amalthea]

It's a highly physical contact sport where the size of your fists and entire skeletal structure is highly relevant. Those things absolutely developed in the first 20 years of Fallon Fox's life, a period of time where her body was flooded with testosterone.

If people are getting butt hurt because we're not burying our heads in the sands in order to spare the feelings of transgender women, then tough luck. This "problem" is a very specific issue that relates to contact sports and nothing else so stop with the assertions that we're bigots for (apparently) not accepting transgender women as actual women.

Hormone replacement therapy raise the risk to get osteoporosis.

Most people of either sex have different levels of hormones and growth during their life, from the mother's womb (where the concentration of Testosterone is supposed to be the highest in a man's life but isn't always. Causing sometimes misdevelopment of the sexual parts of your body) trough puberty into old age.

For transgenders it's not only a battle to get recognised as your inner gender but also to keep all the right and freedom an adult person has. In many cases you loose both your male and your female rights just because people have such an emotional problem with others changing genders.

And it's not just a "specific" problem of contac sports, this kind of reductionism is symptomatic for any Transgender topic on this board, once transwomen get reduced to their chromosome, once to their genitals another time to the amount of calcium in their fucking bones. People are more than the position of their quarks of their subatomar level of their sex chromosome molecules in their dick or vag. It discounts all the suffering we go trough to be even recognised as a person and not a joke or an elaborate scheme to win easily in sports or to rape hereosexual men or infiltrate feminism.

But that's the shit we get often from all sides of society

 

[joshcryer]

But that's the shit we get often from all sides of society

Don't worry about that person's comment. Unfortunately genetically, one isn't going to be able to change their protein structure. Hormones only go so far. Transgendered people, male or female, he or she, have to ultimately accept that, for the time being (there may be future genetic advancements that change that, but for now, no). A person born a sexed male will have more muscle fibers than a sexed female. That is unquestioned.

 

[Vio-Lence]

So the natural woman beat the man? Shock and awe.

 

[JB1981]

Was this actual doctor's comments disused?


But not all doctors agree with her. Dr. Ramona Krtuzick, an endocrinologist well versed in the finer points of hormone therapies, says that because Fox started her treatment so late in life, it's unlikely her skeleton and musculature would change significantly. As Krutzick told Bloody Elbow:

Typically, you're looking at about 15 years after
androgen suppression and sexual reassignment surgery to really start to see significant changes in bone density. It's been too early for her to see much of a decrease in bone mass or to make her equal to that of a female. She started off with a much higher bone density than other women her same age, and therefore will maintain a lot of that for a while. Additionally, because she is taking estrogen, that will actually help to maintain that bone mass. Women also have lighter, child bearing hips because of the difference in hormones during the body's developmental years. Her skeleton and body mass and shape developed a long time ago. Those changes cannot be undone. They are permanent.
Her testosterone levels are more than likely in the normal female range, since her adrenals are the primary source for it now. She didn't undergo hormone therapy and surgery until she was fully developed, as compared to someone who completes therapy and surgery in their adolescence or very early adulthood, when they haven't completely developed. She has the potential to be significantly stronger because her muscle development reached several years beyond full maturity, giving her the potential to be significantly stronger than other age matched women.There's not really a way to determine how much her muscle mass will decrease over time. What can be said is that she has a naturally higher propensity to build and maintain muscle mass because she was once a fully developed, adult male. You can't ever take that away from her.

 

[EmiPrime]

NeoGAF: where it's okay to call trans women men as long as you do it politely (and maybe edit in correct pronouns to cover your ass) and your fellow posters will defend you as having no "ill intent" and that the offended parties are "hurting their cause".

So the natural woman beat the man? Shock and awe.

Then you have some people who aren't smart enough to do that.

Was this actual doctor's comments disused?


But not all doctors agree with her. Dr. Ramona Krtuzick, an endocrinologist well versed in the finer points of hormone therapies, says that because Fox started her treatment so late in life, it's unlikely her skeleton and musculature would change significantly. As Krutzick told Bloody Elbow:

Those are important observations, development doesn't end as a teenager it continues right through 20s. However I am not sure about the comments about muscle as estrogen fundamentally changes muscle and fat development, including what's there.

 

[Boom Boom Pow]

NeoGAF: where it's okay to call trans women men as long as you do it politely (and maybe edit in correct pronouns to cover your ass) and your fellow posters will defend you as having no "ill intent" and that the offended parties are "hurting their cause".



Then you have some people who aren't smart enough to do that.



Those are important observations, development doesn't end as a teenager it continues right through 20s. However I am not sure about the comments about muscle as estrogen fundamentally changes muscle and fat development, including what's there.

you do realize it was only one pesron right?

 

[HiResDes]

I actually sparred with Evan's Smith once when she was training. Scariest 3 minutes of my life. I"m rooting for her all the way, she's a classy fighter.

She's quite charismatic too

EmiPrime, you do realize the real world is much less politically correct, and that most Americans wouldn't even know which pronoun to use or care enough to think about the repercussions of their pronoun usage.

 

[RockTurtle]

NeoGAF: where it's okay to call trans women men as long as you do it politely (and maybe edit in correct pronouns to cover your ass) and your fellow posters will defend you as having no "ill intent" and that the offended parties are "hurting their cause".



Then you have some people who aren't smart enough to do that.



Those are important observations, development doesn't end as a teenager it continues right through 20s. However I am not sure about the comments about muscle as estrogen fundamentally changes muscle and fat development, including what's there.

as opposed to calling others bigot and spewing *-phobic terms when someone presents an opposing view?

come on, look at things objectively. Also, i would say hormone treatment so far into one's age (above puberty) just murks things ever further in terms of sports.

 

[kirblar]

She's quite charismatic too

EmiPrime, you do realize the real world is much less politically correct, and that most Americans wouldn't even know which pronoun to use or care enough to think about the repercussions of their pronoun usage.

We also just had a recent massive public s-storm with the incident at the Microsoft conference where a situation was blown completely out of proportion. We're dealing with issues where we're attempting to separate gender and sex, and terminology can get very nuanced. Being able to tolerate inadvertent ambiguity/clumsiness is not a bad thing.

 

[agrajag]

NeoGAF: where it's okay to call trans women men as long as you do it politely (and maybe edit in correct pronouns to cover your ass) and your fellow posters will defend you as having no "ill intent" and that the offended parties are "hurting their cause".



Then you have some people who aren't smart enough to do that.



Those are important observations, development doesn't end as a teenager it continues right through 20s. However I am not sure about the comments about muscle as estrogen fundamentally changes muscle and fat development, including what's there.

Yeah, let's take your word over a specialist.

Also, the article says development is complete by theage of 22, not "right through the 20's." Way to twist facts there

 

[Jea Song]

Even with the surgeries, estrogen, ect... Isn't the male bone structure stil there? The wider shoulders, bigger hands, strength?

If so that could be considered an unfair advantage. Why do you think we don't allow men vs women in any sport?

 

[Platy]

Should be noted that Testosterone affects muscle fiber because it is an steroid homrone.

And UFC has no problems of letting people who already used Steroids fight after a long time without steroids.

Or else Cyborg would never fight in mma ever again =P

 

[Vio-Lence]

Then you have some people who aren't smart enough to do that.

Would it have been better if I had used the qualifier "trans" woman? I don't think its incorrect to say man or trans-woman. The scientific community is split.

 

[Jest Chillin]

Hormone replacement therapy raise the risk to get osteoporosis.

Most people of either sex have different levels of hormones and growth during their life, from the mother's womb (where the concentration of Testosterone is supposed to be the highest in a man's life but isn't always. Causing sometimes misdevelopment of the sexual parts of your body) trough puberty into old age.

For transgenders it's not only a battle to get recognised as your inner gender but also to keep all the right and freedom an adult person has. In many cases you loose both your male and your female rights just because people have such an emotional problem with others changing genders.

And it's not just a "specific" problem of contac sports, this kind of reductionism is symptomatic for any Transgender topic on this board, once transwomen get reduced to their chromosome, once to their genitals another time to the amount of calcium in their fucking bones. People are more than the position of their quarks of their subatomar level of their sex chromosome molecules in their dick or vag. It discounts all the suffering we go trough to be even recognised as a person and not a joke or an elaborate scheme to win easily in sports or to rape hereosexual men or infiltrate feminism.

But that's the shit we get often from all sides of society

No one is implying that Fox is trying to cheat. Just that she may have an unfair advantage. Her situations is incredibly unique and rare in the sport which presents extremely limited options for trying to keep things fair.

Should be noted that Testosterone affects muscle fiber because it is an steroid homrone.

And UFC has no problems of letting people who already used Steroids fight after a long time without steroids.

Or else Cyborg would never fight in mma ever again =P

Cyborg doesn't fight for the UFC. Also the UFC's punishment for people testing positive for banned substances varies on the substance used, the fighters history, and a number of other factors. The largest factor though, in whether or not a fighter is allowed to continue fighting is the Athletic Commissions. And each state in the US has their own.

There is no one governing body in MMA.

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

Would it have been better if I had used the qualifier "trans" woman? I don't think its incorrect to say man or trans-woman. The scientific community is split.

Yes, it would have, it seems like a matter of basic human decency. She clearly doesn't identify herself as a man and has gone to a great troubles to cease being such thus trans-woman is a much more accurate and far less offensive way to describe her. I'm not exactly sure why I need to explain this to you though given it all seems pretty obvious? Do you think any trans-woman would appreciate you describing them as a man?

 

[AranhaHunter]

I'm late to comment, but I agree with Rogan and Dana. I think there are some inherit advantages that trans women would have over birth born women that doesn't simply go away with surgery. That's not to say they can't overcome the disadvantages as shown in this fight. I'm all for a trans gender division, but IMHO they should not compete against birth born women in sports. Sports is all about fairness, and if you have an advantage by previously being a man then that's not fair. It's different in Serena Williams, Lebron James, Jon Jones', etc case where they have a God given advantage over others, but they were born that way.

I will agree that we need more research on this subject though.

 

[rocketknight]

It's different in Serena Williams, Lebron James, Jon Jones', etc case where they have a God given advantage over others, but they were born that way.

This phrase didn't give you pause, at all? Not even a little bit?

 

[The Faceless Master]

as opposed to calling others bigot and spewing *-phobic terms when someone presents an opposing view?

come on, look at things objectively. Also, i would say hormone treatment so far into one's age (above puberty) just murks things ever further in terms of sports.

i guess you saw this huh...

For what it's worth, searching the thread's pages for "transph" results in more posts claiming that people are calling other people transphobic than there are actual posts calling people transphobic. Is the PC police call coming from inside the house??

(Seriously. I just checked. This is the shit I can be coerced to do at 3AM on Sunday mornings. Meet the Press cannot come soon enough. Someone help me.)

 

[The One and Done™]

What in hell...