Gsak
Member
Of course, never said any different.
But it's also my right to comment and criticize. Freedom of speech.
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Tropes versus Women in Video Games
- Thread starter Kodiak
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Of course, never said any different.
But it's also my right to comment and criticize. Freedom of speech.
more than a little questionable. seems pretty cut-and-dry to me.
plagiarize
Banned
i find it interesting that you would wave the 'freedom of speech' as you criticise someone else for excercising their own freedoms. why shouldn't she be free to ask for money when people are willing to give it?
That's pretty harmless compared to what he does to the other guys in the game.
Press X to Hit.
btw. If I donate money... wouldn't I help out a damsel in distress? I refuse to support such an old fashioned trope. /joke
In PoP: Sands of Time the prince loses more and more of his shirt over the course of the game. At the end he's topless
Gsak
Member
Did I ever deny her the right? No.
Again, do I find it unnecessary when hundreds of other people do the same thing on a daily basis for free? Yes.
tkscz
Member
?
Why does everyone take my avy and do that? I don't like fat women as a fetish, I simply find them beautiful and thinner women unattractive (just think of it as the opposite of how you would feel), there is nothing sexist about natural attraction. Just proud of being a chubby chaser.
What? Is it sexist to like big women?
?
Seraphinianus
Banned
plagiarize
Banned
that isn't presented as a reward. it happens gradually regardless of how well you play. it isn't 'congratulations you did really well, here is the prince with a shirt off'. he loses more of his shirt as you play to demonstrate the damage that has happened to him in his adventure. not to reward the player.
thankfully you don't get the right to deny her anything. you think her expressing her rights is unnescessary, yet defend your expression of your own rights. do you not see how someone like me might find that distasteful?
i am free to say 'you shouldn't voice your opinion because other people do it much better' but i don't, because it would make me sound like a jackass.
What is supposed to be ironic about it?
Seraphinianus
Banned
something about people only using attractive women as avatars and having a goofy fat anime girl as a way to stand out from it, i dunno
one could argue that beating the game in itself is a reward
plagiarize
Banned
one could. but i don't see what finishing a game being rewarding has to do with the matter being discussed. the prince's gradual undressing is not presented as a reward, whether one finds it rewarding or not. Samus's stripping down to her bikini IS presented as a reward, whether one finds it rewarding or not.
that's the issue.
yes. the over use of power fantasies in games made by men for men is an issue. as is children starving in africa. neither stop the issue that this thread is about from being an issue worthy of havings it's own seperate discussion.
I don't see "but portrayals of men are rubbish as well" as a defence to how poorly women are portrayed. It's an issue, certainly, and one that should warrant a serious discussion - John Walker puts it best in my mind:
Gsak
Member
True but you forget that Metroid
a) was made in 1986
b) and that a lot of Japanese games over-sexualise women. Not to say that Western games don't.
Again... what? You're equating someone asking for funding for a specific project with being a damsel in distress? People here really have a hard time understanding what the point of Kickstarter is, it would seem.
does this count?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpggG6RdElI&t=1m9s
"Streaking Mode" in Metal Gear Solid 2 VR missions and Raiden is actually completely nude, not just semi naked. You have to beat some missions right after each other (which isn't easy at all, it's the last Raiden mission to unlock in VR - which even means you unlock nude Raiden for beating all his other missions) to do his streaking.
Ok I can see that, but I think if it had been a female character I would have definitely viewed it as a "reward" for playing. I think nowadays that stuff is just more sublte. I think I remember the guy who made Bayonetta say "The bigger combos you pull off, the more of her skin will be revealed." It isn't a "here, there's your reward" type of reward but more of a "play the game" reward. (of course does Bayonetta also have skimpy unlockable costumes which kind of contradicts my statement :/ )
I was just joking.
No, I think they are saying that she was given even more money because of the harassment.
plagiarize
Banned
well, western games DO, so i don't see the relevance of point B, and subsequent Metroid games continue to have a similar reward, and newer games like the Witcher series continue to have similar 'here are naked ladies as rewards' mechanics too. Metroid is one of the earliest examples of a problem that continues today.
i can't say for certain, without talking to Kojima and finding out his intent, but i remember that scene being presented as comedic. i don't think it's meant to be 'congrats! here is Raiden's butt!' but if Kojima says that's what it is, i would accept it. my belief is that it wasn't intended that way though. do you think MGS2 is aimed equally at men and women? i don't. do you have to play at a high level to unlock streaking mode? i honestly don't know.
GrandHarrier
Member
Hey now. Don't discriminate. You get naked Geralt ass too.
Gsak
Member
A major problem is how the developers and PR/Marketing teams view us, the gamers.
They assume that we will be paying close attention to Mileeena's booty, to how much skin Bayonetta will show, Cammy's ass e.t.c.
Personally I find that offensive and insulting. It's as if they think we are all a bunch of teens, filled with raging hormones, ready to fap at the thought of pixels.
They assume that we will be paying close attention to Mileeena's booty, to how much skin Bayonetta will show, Cammy's ass e.t.c.
Personally I find that offensive and insulting. It's as if they think we are all a bunch of teens, filled with raging hormones, ready to fap at the thought of pixels.
the question i ask is if enabling power fantasies is in itself is a poor portrayal or if it's simply overused.
MUSCLED ASS DUDES CHAINSAWING ALIENS RIPPED AS FUCK appeals to me as much as it does the average female but I don't see the harm it letting boys play pretend.
What?
Gsak
Member
It's become a tradition. Not even in all Metroid games.
My bad I guess. Should have made it clearer. Wasn't aware of how tense this thread is.
It's honestly kind of infuriating. I really dig Sharla in Xenoblade and her starting outfit is fantastic. Now whenever I try to improve her armor, suddenly she goes from reasonable clothing that's suitable for running around in the heat but also staying somewhat protected to... a metal bikini.
Since the armor appears in cutscenes too, I like trying to keep the characters in outfits they might actually wear, so that the disconnect isn't too jarring. That means I haven't stuck Shulk in super heavy armor sets and I'd really like it if Sharla wasn't almost naked while (super early and obvious spoiler)
mourning her fiance
Well and a dude several posts before made the same comment, except he appeared to be serious.
plagiarize
Banned
ooookay. because we were sexist before, we can keep being sexist, because see we aren't doing it to be sexist, we're just up holding tradition! that makes it totally cool right?
A few years ago I took part in a opinions panel about video games. $100 to talk about games for an hour? I didn't hesitate.
It was for a then unreleased game. We were asked general stuff about things we liked/disliked in games and finally they started getting into details about that particular game. It featured a female protagonist and they asked us what we would want out of a character like that. I said I wanted someone well written with a personality. The guys on the panel, who would mostly be classified as dudebros now, said they wanted her to be hot. The guy running the panel then passed around concept art. In one of them the woman was wearing what was essentially the equivalent of three belts. The game eventually was released and one of the criticisms was lack of any story or character development. We can do better.
It was for a then unreleased game. We were asked general stuff about things we liked/disliked in games and finally they started getting into details about that particular game. It featured a female protagonist and they asked us what we would want out of a character like that. I said I wanted someone well written with a personality. The guys on the panel, who would mostly be classified as dudebros now, said they wanted her to be hot. The guy running the panel then passed around concept art. In one of them the woman was wearing what was essentially the equivalent of three belts. The game eventually was released and one of the criticisms was lack of any story or character development. We can do better.
plagiarize
Banned
well, it can lead to body issues and the like. we can't all become ripped ass kickers even if we all want to. it leads to smaller and skinnier guys being picked on and getting insulted.
From the interviews with her posted earlier -- particularly the part where she quotes Muriel Rukeyser -- I get the impression that her general philosophy is in line with postmodern feminism, one of the central tenets of which is that media is best analyzed in terms of its relationships to other media. In other words, analysis of individual works is significantly less important than identification of general trends consistent among similar works. She goes through examples quickly because she's trying to establish the existence of an emergent system of consistently negative or marginalizing portrayals of female characters in media. In-depth criticism of specific examples of such portrayals is considered comparatively unimportant, generally speaking, in postmodern thought.
This sort of media criticism honestly does tend to look like blowing small things out of proportion, but it makes a lot more sense once you understand that the objective isn't to critique a specific game, but rather to demonstrate a general trend that is consistent across multiple games and even mediums.
To clarify using a specific example she raises: When she mentions Metroid rewarding players with increasingly-naked depictions of Samus based on player performance she is not so much criticizing Metroid, the specific game, as sexist. She is criticizing a general practice of using the display of a woman's body as a form of reward as sexist, and using Metroid as one specific example of that practice. Her statement is not really "Metroid is sexist," but is more accurately "Metroid is consistent with a general trend of portraying women's bodies as a reward, and this general trend is sexist."
It's a somewhat subtle distinction, but it's a rather important one.
The excuses in this thread are kind of hilarious.
It's traditional sexism! You can't deny our cultural rights as gamers! Sexism is a part of our heritage!
But the character asked to be hit. Never mind that it was obviously a game designer who structured the scene so that she would ask to be hit and then smacked around by a character that we know feels morally justified in doing it anyway because he's angry with her. Besides, he hit a black senator in front of the Lincoln Memorial. That was fucked up.
Why is she still accepting money anyway? She must be up to something!
tkscz
Member
Anime girl? Dude, that's princess Daisy.
Anywho, it's not meant to be used that way. It's simple to say I like fat women, and I'm proud of it. It's a way of saying it, without having to keep repeating it and sounding like a douche. This is what I mean when I say taking something small and blowing out of proportion. I'm afraid she'll get the wrong idea about something, and make something that was never sexist, and make it so that it is.
Gsak
Member
That's a logic leap. I just said it's kind of a Metroid tradition. Not that it justifies sexism.
P.S.: In Devil May Cry 3 if you beat the game on easy mode, you unlock Shirtless Dante. In Dissidia there's also a shirtless Sephiroth. And yes, these do count as rewards methinks.
turlockobserver
Neo Member
I'm wondering if she's going to talk about the role or purpose of story and characters in a lot of old and new big time AAA titles (since that seems to be mostly what she's examining). Throughout most of gaming history, the story and characters in games have been weak window dressing to give the player an excuse to play in the game world, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. In-depth story isn't always necessary when the developers want the focus to be on the game. But honestly I think someone's going to crack the code and unify story and interaction and play in a meaningful way, and fifty years from now our grandchildren will look back at the massive ludonarrative dissonance in the shoot things-watch a movie-shoot things-watch a movie pattern of games today, and laugh.
Also interested to see if she has anything to say about create-a-character RPGs where you can essentially create a character with whatever traits you like.
ALSO, publishers like money.
Also interested to see if she has anything to say about create-a-character RPGs where you can essentially create a character with whatever traits you like.
ALSO, publishers like money.
But people in here have no problems guessing the intent of the developers of the original Metroid. And does anyone in here really think that NINTENDO released a game featuring an ending that was just put in there for sexual stimulation, although no one knew that he played a girl the whole time? Really? All the endings above 3 hours don't show her as an obvious girl. In fact people beating the game >3 hours would not have known.
http://www.vgmuseum.com/end/nes/b/met.htm
I see both endings under 3 hours as pure "we show that you actually played a girl, haha, tricked you". And how else should they have shown that you played a girl instead of a man?
I mean if she would have been nude, I would somewhat understand it. But in a pixelated bikini? Really? But Raiden totally nude is obviously there for comical reasons (okay, how would a nude man every be a sexualized being, this just doesn't work), so that's totally fine. Making fun of nude humans is okay then? But only if it's a man, right?
EDIT: btw. it shouldn't be difficult to find unlocks of somewhat-nude man in games. I just think about RE5. You got to unlock the half-nude Chris. Yes, there is semi-nude Sheva as well, but there you go. Of course, half-nude Chris probably doesn't work for girls, but only for gay men. So people in here won't count that one as well.
tkscz
Member
I should've explained what I meant a little better. The Metroid example is something that is obviously sexist, and not really much way of hiding it or mistaking it for something else. I mean, finding something that isn't sexist, something that could be very minute, and was never meant to be sexist, and making it seem like a huge sexist troupe.
yeah, i suppose any time you reinforce traditional gendered fantasies you run the risk of marginalizing those that don't fit? i mean, i don't know if i'd say those fantasies are in themselves poor or if we need to be rid of them though.
a close-up of her face would more than suffice, i think.
That could just mean you were playing as a biseinen the whole time.
like this here as close-up?
this just shows a human with long hair.
Close-Up? On NES? The whole ROM was 128k, you know that right? Should have added another 64k just for that closeup. Fuck size constraints.
Oh god. I think them doing ANYTHING would be interpreted as being wrong today as well. The only real way would have been to remove the whole Samus being a girl thing and just go with a man. Or maybe added "YOU PLAYED A GIRL LOL" as text.
HyperCubed4
Member
Looks like Carrot Top.
Postmodernism rejects authorial intent outright; that something was never meant to be sexist doesn't mean that it isn't sexist. It also posits that all portrayals are part of emergent systems, so there's not really such a thing as a minute portrayal of sexism. A completely ancillary background character inserted into a work with the intent of being either benign or even empowering which embodies elements of overarching sexist portrayals is sexist; the intent of the creator and the importance of the character within the work as a whole is irrelevant.
This is the same reason that it is considered impossible to satirize sexist tropes, as she alludes to in one of those interviews. Any satirical depiction is effectively indistinguishable from an entirely serious depiction in postmodern thought. This is the clause that gets Lollipop Chainsaw in trouble, and is what I was alluding to earlier when the discussion briefly turned to it and No More Heroes.
i don't know what constraints Metroid was under, I just know it was possible to draw faces on the damn thing.
probably.
turlockobserver
Neo Member
I'm not sure how rejecting authorial intent makes it impossible for irony to exist. All New Criticism says is that it doesn't matter what the author's intent was, what matters is what the fiction achieves. The reader/critic can see an ironic/satirical portrayal of something like sexism or ultraviolence and appreciate it as ironic without ever knowing the author's intent, and even without the author intending it to be so. You're arguing that irony can't exist without knowledge of the author intending it to, which sort of flies in the face of the definition of irony.
tkscz
Member
Of course it was possible. It just costs more bytes. And if you broke the 128k limit, then you would have to put more ROM in there.
And the one you linked to is boobs and face. If you cut the boobs, it could possibly be also a man (it was the 80s, you know). And using the linked one instead would have made the situation worse.
Just a face and making it obvious that it's a female would have been pretty hard, especially because you couldn't use lipstick (would be sexist) or eye-liner (would be sexist again). I mean why should Samus have make-up on? For whom? She was just on a space mission alone? So it would be obvious make-up meant for the player. I'm just using the logic of some people ITT.
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