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[Fuchsdh]

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/566429325/tropes-vs-women-in-video-games

This is beyond confusing to me. Let's say the 6K goal was a proper estimation of the cost of the project. Where is the remainder of the 150K total going? There can't possibly be $144,000 of rewards to dole out, can there? Sorry if there's some obvious answer to this as I'm not familiar with kickstarter, but if there is I'm not seeing it (and I'm hoping it isn't "this woman just keeps the money").

You should read the above pages, we're debating that

Just so we're clear, I think it's fair for people to get paid for stuff via Kickstarter. I was merely pointing out that I don't understand this reaction people have for certain products that they deem can be accomplished by individuals in their spare time. There's this suspicion that if there isn't complete transparency -- or at least the ability to understand the expenses of the project -- the clearly the excess funds will be blown on fancy cars and better living accommodations.

Well... that's because without transparency, excess funds often *do* get blown on fancy cars and better living accommodations. That's the real world I don't think she's the type, but she's also a person asking for money on the internet.

I'm not expecting Kickstarter to start to demand accounting and transparency--ultimately that's up for the backers to decide, poor judgement or no. I can still take issue with individual campaigns however, and that's what I'm doing here.

 

[Suairyu]

Ummm... Get a job like the rest of us?

Or didn't she have living expenses up until now? How did she pay for them?

Um, this will be her job?

Again, I don't think you understand how time consuming proper research is. It's a full-time job in itself. That why media companies hire researchers. This is going to be a lot more than simply playing games in her spare time.

How did you feel about DoubleFine raising all that cash to go on DoubleFine adventure? Take out material costs and 100% of what is left is going on wages.

... like every crowd-sourced venture ever. Do you actually understand what kickstarter is?

That's not really how curriculum works. I asked this before, is she already associated with a program somewhere?

I have no idea. But that's what she wants to do.

And isn't it? Outsiders are often asked to come in to create lectures and seminars and materials on contract at Universities over here.

In fact, even high schools, junior/middle and elementary/primary schools buy textbooks and learning materials and follow their set and recommended study curriculum, modifying it if they desire.

That's exactly what she'd be creating here. And you definitely have to obtain proper licenses for footage/images/music in anything you'd be selling as a product. If she wants to sell this to schools, the upfront license fees are going to be huge.

 

[faceless007]

I don't get what people are saying she should have done once it got to 6K and the money kept coming in. Should she have just declined all money past that goal? Does KS even let projects do that?

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Thing is, her videos are studies with a very particular theme. And it appears to come from a feministic point of view. So, what do you think is the basis of her videos, if not feminism?

I really can't even begin to understand what point it is that you think you're making. The product that she's pitching is a video series, and perhaps a curriculum. What it's about doesn't make it any less of a product. You keep trying to get to the idea that because it's feminist, it therefore is disqualified from being a product -- whatever that means. I really can't follow your train of thought at all.

If it was an educational series about World War II, is that a product?

 

[plagiarize]

I don't get what people are saying she should have done once it got to 6K and the money kept coming in. Should she have just declined all money past that goal? Does KS even let projects do that?

i don't believe so. i know they don't just let you take the amount you make over your goal and donate it to charity. i believe you either close the project and get nothing, or get everything people pitched in (presuming your target was met).

 

[faceless007]

brb, gonna go demand a refund for every book I've ever bought on feminism because it's not a product and information should be free or something.

 

[LunaticHigh]

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/566429325/tropes-vs-women-in-video-games

This is beyond confusing to me. Let's say the 6K goal was a proper estimation of the cost of the project. Where is the remainder of the 150K total going? There can't possibly be $144,000 of rewards to dole out, can there? Sorry if there's some obvious answer to this as I'm not familiar with kickstarter, but if there is I'm not seeing it (and I'm hoping it isn't "this woman just keeps the money").

She's going to pocket at least a hundred grand. All as planned.

 

[conman]

That's not really how curriculum works. I asked this before, is she already associated with a program somewhere?

Don't think she has any credentials, if that's what you mean. I'm assuming she'd get some folks with legit credentials attached to the curriculum project. Could be cool if she does something like a documentary with interviews of game industry folks and gender/cultural studies folks. Hopefully she can approach the project more as a filmmaker rather than as an educator/scholar/critic.

But it also seems like there's a lot of good she could do with all of that excess funding. Start a non-profit program that can help support women in the industry. Set up a series of short-term scholarships for women interested in changing the face of the industry. Help fund and bring notice to indie developers that are challenging accepted gender biases. Keep making awesomely suggestive web videos. Whatever. Something about the "curriculum" bit just sounds weird to me.

 

[plagiarize]

I also think this is weird. As far as I can tell, she has no academic credentials. If she were a writer or filmmaker, that would be one thing. But she's hoping to sell educational materials.

Her heart's in the right place, but I think she's going in the wrong direction with this. Start a non-profit program that can help support women in the industry. Set up a series of short-term scholarships. Whatever. Keep making awesomely suggestive web videos. But the whole "curriculum" thing is wrong headed IMO.

you can't kickstart a program. or a business. it has to be a thing. so a series of documentaries, or a book, or something. some final thing that can be said to be finished. a curriculum meets that requirement.

 

[Gsak]

Um, this will be her job?

Again, I don't think you understand how time consuming proper research is. It's a full-time job in itself. That why media companies hire researchers. This is going to be a lot more than simply playing games in her spare time.

How did you feel about DoubleFine raising all that cash to go on DoubleFine adventure? Take out material costs and 100% of what is left is going on wages.

... like every crowd-sourced venture ever. Do you actually understand what kickstarter is?

DoubleFine's a company. A business.

I really can't even begin to understand what point it is that you think you're making. The product that she's pitching is a video series, and perhaps a curriculum. What it's about doesn't make it any less of a product. You keep trying to get to the idea that because it's feminist, it therefore is disqualified from being a product -- whatever that means. I really can't follow your train of thought at all.

If it was an educational series about World War II, is that a product?

My point is that what about all the other people who make a similar "product" -some doing it far better- without asking for money?

 

[Suairyu]

DoubleFine's a company. A business.

And she'd be self employed. A business of one.

What is the difference when the money in both cases is going to a combination of materials and wages?

My point is that what about all the other people who make a similar "product" -some doing it far better- without asking for money?

This isn't a new thing in business, you know. Kickstarter is the new hotness but sourcing funding (without it being investment) is as old as business itself. Many artists and organisations got started this way.

You're criticising an age-old business model and lumping all that criticism on one person.

 

[faceless007]

They probably already have money from other sources.

You can ask that exact question about every single KS project. Someone wants to make a video game (like Feep's Sequence), well why don't they raise it elsewhere? Modders do it for free. Someone wants money to record a studio album, well why don't they raise it elsewhere? Amateur musicians do it for free in their garage. Someone wants to make a documentary movie, well why don't they raise it elsewhere? Student filmmakers do it for free. Etc.

 

[KingDirk]

DoubleFine's a company. A business.



My point is that what about all the other people who make a similar "product" -some doing it far better- without asking for money?

What about them? She chose to use a system available to her to get funding for her product. Other people didn't. I have many friends who consider themselves artists. Some charge for their work, others don't. Both create products, and I guarantee you that the ones that get paid don't always match up to my assessment of quality. It's almost as if some people do things for different reasons.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

My point is that what about all the other people who make a similar "product" -some doing it far better- without asking for money?

What about them?

Edit: Others have already asked this question and expounded on it, so, just imagine I quoted the above three posts and wrote "THIS." below them.

 

[Gsak]

And she'd be self employed. A business of one.

What is the difference when the money in both cases is going to a combination of materials and wages?

How about the sum of money asked related to to the end product? DoubleFine has a lot of people working.

 

[Fuchsdh]

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/566429325/tropes-vs-women-in-video-games

This is beyond confusing to me. Let's say the 6K goal was a proper estimation of the cost of the project. Where is the remainder of the 150K total going? There can't possibly be $144,000 of rewards to dole out, can there? Sorry if there's some obvious answer to this as I'm not familiar with kickstarter, but if there is I'm not seeing it (and I'm hoping it isn't "this woman just keeps the money").

And she'd be self employed. A business of one.

What is the difference when the money in both cases is going to a combination of materials and wages?

This isn't a new thing in business, you know. Kickstarter is the new hotness but sourcing funding (without it being investment) is as old as business itself. Many artists and organisations got started this way.

You're criticising an age-old business model and lumping all that criticism on one person.

She's not a business, as far as I can tell (I could be mistaken). Making videos and being self-employed are a sphere apart, as far as tax and monetary reasons are concerned. One person making money /= a business of one.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

How about the sum of money asked related to to the end product? DoubleFine has a lot of people working.

Maybe she'll produce something that makes backers proud. Maybe it'll be terrible and everyone will wonder why they backed this hack. It remains to be seen.

 

[Suairyu]

She's not a business, as far as I can tell (I could be mistaken). Making videos and being self-employed are a sphere apart, as far as tax and monetary reasons are concerned. One person making money /= a business of one.

She's going to be selling this to schools. She (or what she is doing) is a business.

How about the sum of money asked related to to the end product?

Oh you've seen the end product and a break down of costs? Nevermind the fact she said the extra money is being plowed into ramping the production values up to a professional standard.

DoubleFine has a lot of people working.

Meaningless. End result is the same. Materials and wages are being paid for.

 

[faceless007]

How about the sum of money asked related to to the end product? DoubleFine has a lot of people working.

She asked for 6K and spelled out exactly what it was going to. If evidence later comes out she didn't spend any money on the things she said she would, then you'll have a complaint. If you're talking about the money she got over 6K, I ask again, what should she have done, since KS doesn't let projects decline additional money?

What exactly is your criticism? You're doing a spectacularly bad job laying out any sort of cogent argument and when pressed on one argument you jump to another. I suspect we're being trolled.

 

[Xenon]

Seems to me most of the people went in knowing the project was overfunded. But decided they wanted to kick in $25 to support her anyway. It's a small price to feel like your helping bring an issue that is important you to the public eye.

 

[Gsak]

She asked for 6K and spelled out exactly what it was going to. If evidence later comes out she didn't spend any money on the things she said she would, then you'll have a complaint. If you're talking about the money she got over 6K, I ask again, what should she have done, since KS doesn't let projects decline additional money?

What exactly is your criticism? You're doing a spectacularly bad job laying out any sort of cogent argument and when pressed on one argument you jump to another. I suspect we're being trolled.

If you read my previous posts, you would know what my arguments are.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

If you read my previous posts, you would know what my arguments are.

In so far as I can tell, you simply don't like it. You could just say "for some reason I can't quite put my finger on, getting this much money for this endeavor strikes me as wrong" and call it a day. Instead, you've pressed on with weak premises poorly attempting to establish that this is ostensibly a scam.

 

[faceless007]

I've read them all. They fail to make a coherent argument. Something about feminism not being a thing and her not being a company and equipment not costing money.

 

[Gsak]

In so far as I can tell, you simply don't like it. You could just say "for some reason I can't quite put my finger on, getting this much money for this endeavor strikes me as wrong" and call it a day. Instead, you've pressed on with weak premises poorly attempting to establish that this is ostensibly a scam.

Ummm... I never claimed that this is a scam. I did mention that it's everyone's right on how and where to give their money.

I also said that it's my right to comment and criticize.

I've read them all. They fail to make a coherent argument. Something about feminism not being a product and her not being a company and equipment not costing THAT much money, especially since she already has equipment.

Fixed.

 

[Absinthe]

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/566429325/tropes-vs-women-in-video-games

This is beyond confusing to me. Let's say the 6K goal was a proper estimation of the cost of the project. Where is the remainder of the 150K total going? There can't possibly be $144,000 of rewards to dole out, can there? Sorry if there's some obvious answer to this as I'm not familiar with kickstarter, but if there is I'm not seeing it (and I'm hoping it isn't "this woman just keeps the money").

WOW, time to start a kickstarter! If I can make videos that appeal to a certain group of people willing to part with their money and net 100k, I'm in. Guess it's all about the subject of the kickstarter and the types of people willing to back such a thing. Very weird this has gotten so much money.

 

[Nert]

I've read them all. They fail to make a coherent argument. Something about feminism not being a thing and her not being a company and equipment not costing money.

"All critics do is talk about their opinions. The articles they write, the podcasts they record, and the videos they shoot aren't products. They're just selling an idea! Why would anyone invest in that??"

 

[Suairyu]

I also said that it's my right to comment and criticize.

As it is ours to point out your "criticisms" are entirely lacking in logic or substance and, were they valid, apply to every kickstarter ever created and centuries of business relations going back as far as the Greeks and Romans and possibly even further.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

WOW, time to start a kickstarter! If I can make videos that appeal to a certain group of people willing to part with their money and net 100k, I'm in.

I know how to write code. I should make video games and earn millions like those Angry Birds people!

 

[Fuchsdh]

WOW, time to start a kickstarter! If I can make videos that appeal to a certain group of people willing to part with their money and net 100k, I'm in. Guess it's all about the subject of the kickstarter and the types of people willing to back such a thing. Very weird this has gotten so much money.

It'll help if you can get one part of the internet very angry at you for no good reason, so you make yourself look better and get the other part of the internet in your corner.

Would make one hell of a social engineering experiment...

 

[Gsak]

It'll help if you can get one part of the internet very angry at you for no good reason, so you make yourself look better and get the other part of the internet in your corner.

Would make one hell of a social engineering experiment...

Plus a lot of cash!

 

[Orayn]

WOW, time to start a kickstarter! If I can make videos that appeal to a certain group of people willing to part with their money and net 100k, I'm in. Guess it's all about the subject of the kickstarter and the types of people willing to back such a thing. Very weird this has gotten so much money.

If it's so easy and you want to do it to prove a point, go ahead. Raise the money, make the video series, and keep GAF updated on your progress. I'll wait.

 

[faceless007]

I know how to write code. I should make video games and millions like those Angry Birds people!

Without trying to raise any money for computers or software or equipment. FROM ANYONE.

 

[Absinthe]

I know how to write code. I should make video games and earn millions like those Angry Birds people!

Yep, exactly the same as making videos. lol

I'm not discounting her talent or efforts, but 150k is crazy money for this.

If it's so easy and you want to do it to prove a point, go ahead. Raise the money, make the video series, and keep GAF updated on your progress. I'll wait.

TBH if I didn't have a family and a full time job it would be a great experiment to put time into.

It'll help if you can get one part of the internet very angry at you for no good reason, so you make yourself look better and get the other part of the internet in your corner.

Would make one hell of a social engineering experiment...

Lol. Agreed. In the words of Canada Bill Jones "It's immoral to let a sucker keep his money".

It doesn't seem that was her intent though so good for her. Will be interesting to see how this plays out.

 

[tiff]

i'm not sure if Angry Birds is a flattering comparison but I'm okay with it

 

[Steve Youngblood]

i'm not sure if Angry Birds is a flattering comparison but I'm okay with it

I picked it because it's a relatively simple product that some aspiring amateur developer could make, and it was ridiculously successful.

Ultimately, my point is that a lot of successful ventures involve nothing particularly special other than the willingness to try and luck. Concluding that you have a vaguely similar skillset, and going "I should do that, LOL!" is such a hollow observation to discredit its merit

 

[Fuchsdh]

I picked it because it's a relatively simple product that some aspiring amateur developer could make, and it was ridiculously successful.

Ultimately, my point is that a lot of successful ventures involve nothing particularly special other than the willingness to try and luck. Concluding that you have a vaguely similar skillset, and going "I should do that, LOL!" is such a hollow observation to discredit its merit

I think you're taking it a bit too on-the-nose.

 

[7Th]

More then kinda.

Personally i cannot stand her videos and find her extremely annoying, don't get me wrong i have nothing against her as a human being and i completely understand where she is coming from it's just she rubs me the wrong me the wrong way, like Alex from Giantbomb.

It's hard to pinpoint exactly why.

Want my honest opinion? This was kind of a set-up. Her videos are moderated and comments have to be approved. However, she let all the trolls post in this one. I don't think she didn't knew what was going to happen, specially since she so effectively used the trolling to guilt trip guillible people into donating.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Want my honest opinion? This was kind of a set-up. Her videos are moderated and comments have to be approved. However, she let all the trolls post in this one. I don't think she didn't knew what was going to happen, specially since she so effectively used the trolling to guilt trip guillible people into donating.

While I sort of see the reasoning behind airing the crap she gets as a reasoning behind "why we need these kinds of video", I also felt like it was sort of making it about her as opposed to the subject.

But I think that might also just have to do with my prior experience with her videos--most Youtube commentators definitely rub me the wrong way, and she's no exception.

 

[Platy]

Why are you people so angry that people want to give her money ?

Maybe people want DVD, maybe people want the stickers ... maybe people just want to show support for the cause !

WOW, time to start a kickstarter! If I can make videos that appeal to a certain group of people willing to part with their money and net 100k, I'm in. Guess it's all about the subject of the kickstarter and the types of people willing to back such a thing. Very weird this has gotten so much money.

"Famous" people + "polemic" theme + media attention because of the trolls

Want my honest opinion? This was kind of a set-up. Her videos are moderated and comments have to be approved. However, she let all the trolls post in this one. I don't think she didn't knew what was going to happen, specially since she so effectively used the trolling to guilt trip guillible people into donating.

YEAH ... because she totaly used the money to pay for news sites to tell about the trolls ....

 

[Gsak]

As it is ours to point out your "criticisms" are entirely lacking in logic or substance and, were they valid, apply to every kickstarter ever created and centuries of business relations going back as far as the Greeks and Romans and possibly even further.

Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion as well as finding one's arguments invalid for whatever reasons. Some agree with me, some don't. Simple as that.

 

[stupei]

Want my honest opinion? This was kind of a set-up. Her videos are moderated and comments have to be approved. However, she let all the trolls post in this one. I don't think she didn't knew what was going to happen, specially since she so effectively used the trolling to guilt trip guillible people into donating.

You can't be serious.

 

[7Th]

You can't be serious.

I'm joking, it's impossible to actually predict Internet trolling. I do believe that she wouldn't have gotten to over 100k dollars without /v/ acting like /b/. If 4chan had gone the foreverpandering route, she would have been stuck at 10k at best.

 

[spacerumsfield]

She asked for 6K and spelled out exactly what it was going to. If evidence later comes out she didn't spend any money on the things she said she would, then you'll have a complaint. If you're talking about the money she got over 6K, I ask again, what should she have done, since KS doesn't let projects decline additional money?

I've come to the conclusion that this is correct, given the fact that a project creator cannot cap donations (as the quoted post mentions). If capping donations were possible and this lady were to keep drawing in more and more money despite already having more than enough to produce her dumb videos, then it would have been skeevy. As it stands, people decided to back her and she had no choice but to accept their funding, as it were.

With that said, there are a couple of points to be made about this. One, so much money has been raised that I cannot imagine all of it being poured into these videos, even if this woman is genuine. She increased the number of videos to be made from 5 to 12, which, if we accept her original calculation of $1,200 per video (her original project was 5 videos for 6K -- a number I still think is absurd), her total cost ought to be $14.4K. Hell, let's be generous and say cost overruns (whatever those could be in this case) triple the cost of making the videos. That would mean there was still a ginormous pile of cash to the tune of over one hundred thousand dollars lying around....

As the Kickstarter FAQ makes clear, the website does precisely nothing to ensure funds raised are spent in the way a project says it will spend them. Yet, the site is also clear that funding is for "projects only." This seems to me an easy mechanism for abuse and short of hiring a private investigator to track the lady down and catch her driving around in her new mercedes, I don't see what can be done about it. Yet, even if that were to happen, would anybody actually be liable for anything? (that is, if it were conclusively demonstrated that she spent some of the raised funds on stuff besides the project)

Secondly, this is a horrible misallocation of capitol and everyone who contributed money beyond the stated goal is a fool. What did the person handing over the last $50 think that money was going to do above and beyond the $151,571 the lady already possessed? Hint hint, giving this lady gas money doesn't do anything to promote feminist values. Very irrational stuff here, even though the libertarian within counsels me to accept that people have a right to be as dumb as their money as they wish.

 

[tiff]

what's the story behind the trolling, /v/ organized to flood her comments?

 

[7Th]

what's the story behind the trolling, /v/ organized to flood her comments?

Not organized; more like one guy kept reposting the Kickstarter video over and over and over again and /v/ couldn't resist playing /b/.

 

[Nert]

I've come to the conclusion that this is correct, given the fact that a project creator cannot cap donations (as the quoted post mentions). If capping donations were possible and this lady were to keep drawing in more and more money despite already having more than enough to produce her dumb videos, then it would have been skeevy. As it stands, people decided to back her and she had no choice but to accept their funding, as it were.

With that said, there are a couple of points to be made about this. One, so much money has been raised that I cannot imagine all of it being poured into these videos, even if this woman is genuine. She increased the number of videos to be made from 5 to 12, which, if we accept her original calculation of $1,200 per video (her original project was 5 videos for 6K -- a number I still think is absurd), her total cost ought to be $14.4K. Hell, let's be generous and say cost overruns (whatever those could be in this case) triple the cost of making the videos. That would mean there was still a ginormous pile of cash to the tune of over one hundred thousand dollars lying around....

As the Kickstarter FAQ makes clear, the website does precisely nothing to ensure funds raised are spent in the way a project says it will spend them. Yet, the site is also clear that funding is for "projects only." This seems to me an easy mechanism for abuse and short of hiring a private investigator to track the lady down and catch her driving around in her new mercedes, I don't see what can be done about it. Yet, even if that were to happen, would anybody actually be liable for anything? (that is, if it were conclusively demonstrated that she spent some of the raised funds on stuff besides the project)

Secondly, this is a horrible misallocation of capitol and everyone who contributed money beyond the stated goal is a fool. What did the person handing over the last $50 think that money was going to do above and beyond the $151,571 the lady already possessed? Hint hint, giving this lady gas money doesn't do anything to promote feminist values. Very irrational stuff here, even though the libertarian within counsels me to accept that people have a right to be as dumb as their money as they wish.

Your conclusion is that absolutely none of Kickstarter's rules were violated but people are idiots because you think her videos are dumb and it's dumb for them to donate to things they're interested in. While that conclusion is loaded with your own value judgements, I guess it's valid (even if I don't agree). Certainly better than the people trying to say that feminist critiques are a complete waste of time because "males have it just as bad" or whatever.

 

[Gsak]

Not organized; more like one guy kept reposting the Kickstarter video over and over and over again and /v/ couldn't resist playing /b/.

Hmmm... Interesting.

 

[spacerumsfield]

Your conclusion is that absolutely none of Kickstarter's rules were violated but people are idiots because you think her videos are dumb and it's dumb for them to donate to things they're interested in. While that conclusion is loaded with your own value judgements, I guess it's valid (even if I don't agree). Certainly better than the people trying to say that feminist critiques are a complete waste of time because "males have it just as bad" or whatever.

Hmm, I think you need to put the speed reading on ice for a while. Nowhere do I imply that Kickstarter's rules weren't (or won't be) violated; in fact, I imply the very opposite: if this woman has so much money and it isn't possible to spend it all on her videos, it's going to get spent on something else, i.e., on something other than the project (thus violating a rule). I simply asked whether she would actually be legally liable for anything if she were caught doing as such. I genuinely don't know the answer.

Finally, I didn't say the people who donated were "idiots" for "[donating] to things they're interested in"; I said the people who kept donating above and beyond the necessary funding were fools because that is wasted money. It contributes nothing to the specific project at hand and nothing to feminist values. It was only rational to donate that money if your goal was to help enrich this woman, and I don't think people were donating for that reason. Hence, they were being irrational.

 

[Htown]

Guys I don't know what you've heard about this Kickstarter thingy but it sounds kinda shady to me. Like, what happens to all that money?

Spoiler

god i wish general kickstarter trolling was bannable

 

[bhlaab]

Press X to Hit.

Hey now, there is a perfectly reasonable justification for that.

She was... she was asking for it? Well she was!