What's that scene from/context?
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Tropes versus Women in Video Games
- Thread starter Kodiak
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What's that scene from/context?
GrandHarrier
Member
Its from Splinter Cell: Conviction. She is a double agent in that scenario. She helps him to escape but he needs to make it look like he broke out himself. Since she was standing guard over him, he has to rough her up so it doesn't look suspicious.
Could have thrown some punches in there.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
There are many, many, many shadier Kickstarters to go after than this one.
As I've said, I am not going to give money to YouTube videos, but at the same time, I support her fully.
Your battle cry of "GET A JOB!" is a valid one, but you seem to miss the point that she is going to have to do more than just stand in front of a green screen and talk.
Person A: "I'm allowed to post here!"
Person B: "Just as we're allowed to reply to you."
Person A: "But I'm allowed to post here!"
See how stupid you sound?
I think the "get a job" mantra is something that really should apply to all academics.
A lot of my peers just went straight to grad school instead of getting a job after college, and I can't think of a better way to foster "liberal" but close-minded and impractical people than just shoving them through 20+ straight years of schooling and higher ed. I really wish academia would value real-world skill a little more. The masters' theses I read are usually sacks of meaningless jargon that I can barely fathom people labored over.
(I have no idea if this applies to the lady in question or not, your comment just made me go off on a tangent. Basically, everyone should try and get some real-world experiences before locking themselves into scholarly/theoretical disciplines, if I could work my will...)
Freeza Under The Shower
Member
So I'm guessing you're not an academic...
I don't teach or do research for a living, no...
PrinceOfApathy
Banned
For me, I wouldn't mind someone showing her that Splinter Cell gif, even though its completely out of context, I wouldn't mind seeing her throw that game under the bus, but that might do more harm that good to the overall than I would want it to, I just hate what Splinter Cell has become now...
Femmeworth
Banned
That Splinter Cell GIF reminds me of
I would love to see her do a series on anime.
I would love to see her do a series on anime.
ANN had a podcast I think about a year or more ago discussing sexism in anime, and since some of the women in the panel were also involved in gaming news content and media the comparisons between anime, games and their fanbases was discussed. The panel nearly universally agreed that the content of anime was actually more sexist in nature than gaming, but that the fanbase of gaming was far more sexist.
That's really interesting to me. I wonder why that would be... My consideration when she was talking about women in film is--what about the market? Ultimately, entertainment is about making money. If there was a segment of the population fed up with stories that didn't feature them or didn't feature them how they would like to be featured, wouldn't there be some sort of demand/rush to accommodate that demand? And yet the movie landscape hasn't changed much in decades now. If "chick flicks" were offensive (most do fail the Bechdel test), you'd expect to see some sort of pushback in a monetary sense, yet that hasn't happened.
I agree that manual labor, real world skills, etc. really need to be emphasized, but I don't think all academia types need to have real world experience. Chemistry and Biology researchers, as long as they can run instruments without breaking them, should be fine. Real world applications, budgeting, etc. wouldn't really help them, aside from work ethic and a respect for people who do those things, which, admittedly, is great. All jobs that revolve around people, though (like politicians, philosophers, managers, and writers) should have to spend time doing those things (things like Undercover Boss, while cheesy, probably would actually make a difference if managers did them without a show). My favorite idea is to place more emphasis on trade schools, etc. because many people are meant/designed to be mechanics, technicians, farmers, craftsmen, etc. A politician people respect (haha) could give a speech focusing on this problem, and it might begin to help change values. Society overall has devalued these jobs by acting like they're lower class, and I think that's a crime against those people who would be great at them but are obligated to go through college because it's "what is right" from their parents' or society's view. Oh well, I'm probably one of those close-minded academia people you were talking about, haha.
I feel bad about going off-topic, so I'll add in my thoughts on the topic as well. I've been reading this thread for a while, but I didn't really want to share my opinion because I feel unqualified to respond to these issues.
I agree with the general gist of what she is saying - there needs to be a better spread of female characters rather than having a massive amount of them fall under a few tropes. Aside from getting more women into game production/writing, I'm not really sure how to fix it.
As far as order of importance on the general issue of women not being treated fairly goes, I feel that changing the designs of legos (adding firewomen, policewomen, etc.) and products like it is the most important goal. The opportunities that children are given early in their development shape what they like and what they're good at later on, and not showing parents (through advertisements) that legos (or products like them) are great toys for any child is doing a disservice. I'm glad that there are growing numbers of female mathematicians, scientists, and engineers to add diversity to those fields, and I think changes like that would encourage more growth. Diversity encourages different ideas, and ideas form progress. Plus, differences are cool. I hope changes like better characterization and better toy design/advetisement take place and encourage better treatment and representation of females in all fields, including video games.
Hopefully I didn't offend anyone or say anything stupid. If I did, please point it out, so I can avoid it in the future.
PrinceOfApathy
Banned
Can anyone find me the original Feminist Frequency video she did on Bayonetta? I can't seem to find the original video, just a guy countering her arguments, but boy, if her other videos are like the Bayo vid....guys....we are done....Haha....wooooooooooo boy....
Devolution
Member
Feminists are kind of divided down the middle with something like Bayonetta.
Freeza Under The Shower
Member
Just a quick question, but has this posted in relation to the topic?
The Designer's Notebook: Triple-A Games for Women? Seriously?
From Gamasutra and the first lines are quite relevant to the idea of a disproportional representation of 'male' gender ideas versus female (some might view this as inherently bad, I'm more prone to take a dominant distribution viewpoint. After all, that is how the legitimacy of ideology is decided. Who has more knives to stick in the other parties backs?):
The Designer's Notebook: Triple-A Games for Women? Seriously?
From Gamasutra and the first lines are quite relevant to the idea of a disproportional representation of 'male' gender ideas versus female (some might view this as inherently bad, I'm more prone to take a dominant distribution viewpoint. After all, that is how the legitimacy of ideology is decided. Who has more knives to stick in the other parties backs?):
PrinceOfApathy
Banned
She clearly isn't because she tore that game down, tore it asunder. Believe me.
When her other videos land, its gonna be an earth shattering mess, I can't wait to see this now, just solely for the comedic effect.
You know that a lot of people here on GAF were offended or embarrassed by Bayonetta too, right? There was a lot of discussion and criticism, and yet we all survived the massive earth shattering fallout, so I'm pretty sure any critique she would have of tropes -- which would not target a specific game, but a general trend -- isn't going to be all that devastating for any one person or game.
Femmeworth
Banned
Even if her videos turn out to be crap, at least it should encourage someone to do a better job. She's already inspired discussion about the topic.
ZombieTimeMachine
Member
This is exactly how I feel about it as well. I may not always agree with her, but she is making these issues more well known, and while the threads that have sprung up over the past few weeks have had many depressing responses, it also has shown that there are plenty who agree that the industry is very problematic in it's portrayals of women. It is prompting discussions about how to change things for the better.
Gsak
Member
If anything, I did not miss the point. And from what I can tell, neither did she.
No, that's your take of what I said. I just simply stated that we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
charlequin
Banned
This is a really bad line of thought, and I'm going to pick on you in particular here, but this applies to everyone who's brought up similiar objections.
Literally every part of this process was above board. Anita was completely straightforward in how much money she needed to make the set of videos specified, and exactly what stretch-reward videos she would add if additional funding was raised. She made it clear exactly what rewards were on offer. She funded the project using Kickstarter, a platform with a meritocratic/capitalistic purpose that is completely explicit that project starters are entirely welcome to keep money above and beyon their goal target and use it as they see fit, as long as they deliver what they promise in their project. Every single person who pledged after she reached her goal (i.e. 90+% of the funders) knew exactly what they were doing and did so with eyes wide open. There is no part of this that is even the slightest bit "scammy" or otherwise anything but entirely legitimate.
This may come as a wild shock to you, but here in America there are many, many people who make a living by selling the creations of their bodies and minds to other people freelance instead of by working a day job.
Like, seriously, this argument is kind of more ignorant about how money works than it is about how feminism works.
Gsak
Member
Well... whadd'ya know... And I thought that this was a global truth. But apparently it happens in America.
Jokes aside, when I said "Get a Job" I was responding to someone bringing up "living costs" included as an argument.
Where did you see her opinions on Bayonetta?
Edit: Nevermind. That was easy. Man, the internet is great!
charlequin
Banned
This is another line of thought in this thread that really just seems incredibly ill-informed to me. Has the prevalence of high-quality smartphone cameras and the popularity of Youtube convinced everyone that shooting good video content is easy and requires no work?
Yes, and it was a pretty goofy response. Like many people who work in a creative (in the sense of "creating things") field, she sells her services directly rather than working a steady job. Any time she spends on this is time she can't spend on other money-earning activites; any funding she gets for something like this has to (proportionate to her hourly investment) pay for her housing, her food, her transportation, etc. above and beyond the raw cost of assembling the video, exactly the same way that anyone working a 9-5 would be compensated directly for their labor. Your argument doesn't reveal any clever, hidden deception at the heart of this project; it mostly just makes you sound like you don't know how freelancing and self-employment work.
Here's her video on Bayonetta (annoying co-commentator warning): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgLw8tChxX4
It's a hard game for me to hate on, because I had the time of my life with it and I really liked how bombastically ridiculous Bayonetta's character was, but I can get how someone could find her offensive, with the whole nakedness and the Kamiya GIFs and all that.
It's a hard game for me to hate on, because I had the time of my life with it and I really liked how bombastically ridiculous Bayonetta's character was, but I can get how someone could find her offensive, with the whole nakedness and the Kamiya GIFs and all that.
voodoopanda
Member
I saw her Bayonetta video a while ago, but I can't find it now. I wonder why she took it down? From what I remember, she was dismissive of the game but it was mostly about a specific advertising campaign in Japan that had a huge picture of Bayonetta in a subway where people could take off little stickers to eventually undress her. She took issue especially because of the problem of groping in subways, from what I can recall.
Gsak
Member
Well, since I am a freelancer myself I'll have to disagree on that one. Also, I never tried to "reveal any clever, hidden deception".
I just commented on the subject, according to my views on the matter.
I also never said that "creative" work and "manual" work shouldn't be both considered jobs. You missed the point of my statement there.
charlequin
Banned
As far as I can tell, your "point" was that she should get a real job rather than do a Kickstarter because discussions of feminism (or making videos, for that matter) "don't count" as a legitimate activity from which to receive an income, and I've already given said "point" more attention than it probably deserves.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
Femmeworth
Banned
I watched part of it, got tired of having to skip the stupid commentary.
WorstUsernameEver
Member
I'm pretty sure she does, but.. it's not really a valid point to defend that? The designers chose to make Bayonetta's outfit that way and chose to make her attacks work that way. They could have just as easily gave her a normal outfit and normal attacks.
Note, I haven't played Bayonetta, so I would have preferred not to comment on it, but your argument was pretty disingenuous.
Gsak
Member
Look, I've said what I've had to say on the subject and frankly, I have no further desire to keep explaining. I think I have been pretty clear with what and why I said it. If you misinterpret it again and again, it's not my fault.
Again, we all have different views on the matter. You have yours and I will have mine. That's all.
It's actually kind of amazing how after a while the whole "She loses her clothing every time you do an awesome combo!" thing stops being weird or even kind of interesting. Given enough time, even something as stupid as that just becomes a mechanic.
Not really defending it, Kamiya's made it pretty clear he just puts a lot of what he liked into his games. (Glasses, for instance, or Sentai heroes)
Not really defending it, Kamiya's made it pretty clear he just puts a lot of what he liked into his games. (Glasses, for instance, or Sentai heroes)
I'm not arguing anything. I'm just pointing out that she was confused as to why her "leather outfit" would disappear while she attacked with her hair, and that I hated the face she was making as she asked the question over and over. I also expressed my suicidal tendencies, but that was more a cry for help than a real threat.
Hopefully the $100k + will help her research the games she talks about fully.
Hopefully the $100k + will help her research the games she talks about fully.
At the risk of getting off on a rant, I get really fucking sick of seeing professional victims whine about every goddam thing under the sun. They're video games! You know, like games...Make believe...Pretend. Perhaps, just perhaps, people should find real problems to complain about. Complaining about 'proper roles for women' in video games is the domain of snot-nose little twits.
They also chose to make her a badass, demon slaying mother. I doubt trying to tease you was a goal of the developers for the game. Her hair is only a part of what she does in combat in case some of you haven't played it. Even if she was fully dressed but in a form fitting outfit or something similar there's still be the same amount of complaints. How would YOU guys have liked to see her dressed for this game to be acceptable by the female audience?
Oh, and having played through the game twice I can tell you the whole hair as clothes thing didn't distract me from the fluid combat for any amount of time. I can understand some complaints like the whole Tomb Raider bit with the creepy executive producer... this though, not so much.
Riposte
Member
That british dude is like on a whole other level of lame. How does he not realize how corny and awkward he sounds?
I wonder if she ever comments on the mechanics of games. She definitely seems like an outsider peeking in. Indifferent to whatever political alignments, that kind of commentary always appears vapid to me.
EDIT: Just because she finds a little girl she doesn't know (she is an amnesiac) whom calls her mummy doesn't mean Bayonetta is a mother, btw.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
So I guess we shouldn't care about stereotypes in television or film, either, right? Or books, or paintings? I mean, those are fictional, right?
I have played Bayonetta, and it's a great game. I didn't watch the video so I didn't know that feminist frequency hadn't played the game and didn't know about the hair/clothes relationship, and instead mistakenly took it to mean that she was baffled that the developers would make the game like this. Because I was when I played the game and first saw this.
charlequin
Banned
Well, yes, you started out with a nonsensical premise about whether she had an "excuse to ask for money" and went from there. All your argumentation stems from a premise that there's some innate reason why it's unseemly or duplicitous or otherwise immoral to make money on producing feminist cultural criticism but you keep shying away from expressing any concrete reason for that.
This thread would have gone a lot smoother if it was about all gender stereotypes in gaming instead of just one side. I said this awhile back and don't remember getting a response.
She doesn't have to be the birth mother to be a motherly figure. You can't really take that away from the character.
Well, I was surprised the devs did it too. Didn't find it offensive but knew it'd be an easy target for nitpicking from outsiders.
She doesn't have to be the birth mother to be a motherly figure. You can't really take that away from the character.
Well, I was surprised the devs did it too. Didn't find it offensive but knew it'd be an easy target for nitpicking from outsiders.
At first I thought he was actually in her original video at first, as, like, her interpretation of the apathetic, naive male detractors commenting on her video. Then I realized this guy added them in seriously. He should win an award for inarticulate expression. lol
charlequin
Banned
Do you mean "it would've been easier for the men (who greatly outnumber women here on NeoGAF) to talk over said women and make the thread exclusively about their own experiences"? Because if not, I do not agree with you.
Pretty much.
Some think women using sexuality as a source of power is always bad. Even if Bayonetta is powerful, she only has access to that power by submitting herself to a larger system of oppression.
Others think women using sexuality as a source of power can sometimes be good: one might say that Bayonetta is reappropriating/redefining the existing means of authority.
The truth is likely that she's a bit of both.
Yeah, she gets a few game facts wrong, and the british dude made me want to shut down the vid and just hurts her credibility by treating her detractors as idiots (of which I'm sure there are a lot), but the game's no doubt pretty exploitative. I wouldn't single it out of the bunch just because the content itself is as sexist as any other game in shelves, but sexing up Bayonetta is kind of the whole point of the game (I would argue it's done with self-awareness, specially with how ludicrous everything is), so uh...I dunno...it's not an empowering women's fantasy, that's for sure.
Femmeworth
Banned
I only played a little bit of Bayonetta, it wasn't to my taste in terms of gameplay. A game like that isn't problematic in itself, but it is in the context of the industry.
No, easier meaning there wouldn't be arguments stemming from one side being able to use how men are portrayed while the other not. Even if it's not directly said, there's an implied comparison between male and female characters in games.
There are plenty of men who agree with women in this topic. I don't see how you'd think expanding that topic would make those men flip exclusively to the other side.
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