• Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!

Tropes versus Women in Video Games

Status
Not open for further replies.
Fuchsdh said:
I think the "get a job" mantra is something that really should apply to all academics.

A lot of my peers just went straight to grad school instead of getting a job after college, and I can't think of a better way to foster "liberal" but close-minded and impractical people than just shoving them through 20+ straight years of schooling and higher ed. I really wish academia would value real-world skill a little more. The masters' theses I read are usually sacks of meaningless jargon that I can barely fathom people labored over.

(I have no idea if this applies to the lady in question or not, your comment just made me go off on a tangent. Basically, everyone should try and get some real-world experiences before locking themselves into scholarly/theoretical disciplines, if I could work my will...)
Click to expand...
Check out this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yL0aGv45vGM

She's complaining about porn sites advertising on torrent sites. Who else is going to buy ad space on sites filled with pirated content? That's not covered in a humanities course so it's a question that doesn't need answering I guess.
 
daycru said:
Check out this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yL0aGv45vGM

She's complaining about porn sites advertising on torrent sites. Who else is going to buy ad space on sites filled with pirated content? That's not covered in a humanities course so it's a question that doesn't need answering I guess.
Click to expand...


Actually everything worth discovering has already been discovered, therefore the pursuit of science at this point is just meaningless mumbo-jumbo. I agree with the posters saying academia has no place in our new, modern world.
 
mac said:
Actually everything worth discovering has already been discovered, therefore the pursuit of science at this point is just meaningless mumbo-jumbo. I agree with the posters saying academia has no place in our new, modern world.
Click to expand...

You are really stretching what he was saying.
 
daycru said:
She's complaining about porn sites advertising on torrent sites. Who else is going to buy ad space on sites filled with pirated content?
Click to expand...

I suspect Anita is not particularly concerned with the plight of the copyright-infringement websites here, frankly. A particular thing might be both predictable and understandable without being desirable. I don't think that many people would be surprised that torrent sites are covered in garbage porn advertising, but one can still lament the effects that walls of strobing images of semi-violent, domineering sexuality have upon the viewer and societhy as a whole.
 
I want to personally thank you guys for linking me to these videos. Now YouTube is inserting more of her videos right into my content stream as suggestions. Thank you so much for this gift.
 
I was kind of hoping for more...objectivity in some of her videos. She tends to over analyze and it seems like I should have a tin foil hat on while watching. I hope that this series will bump up the quality, and lower the conspiracy level type of stuff, but I don't know if I want to watch it anymore. It kinda reminds me of those Illuminati videos on Youtube!
 
MuddyDonut said:
I was kind of hoping for more...objectivity in some of her videos. She tends to over analyze and it seems like I should have a tin foil hat on while watching. I hope that this series will bump up the quality, and lower the conspiracy level type of stuff, but I don't know if I want to watch it anymore. It kinda reminds me of those Illuminati videos on Youtube!
Click to expand...

I lol'd.
 
MuddyDonut said:
I was kind of hoping for more...objectivity in some of her videos. She tends to over analyze and it seems like I should have a tin foil hat on while watching. I hope that this series will bump up the quality, and lower the conspiracy level type of stuff, but I don't know if I want to watch it anymore. It kinda reminds me of those Illuminati videos on Youtube!
Click to expand...

Can you give an example of the something that was conspiracy level? I've watched a fair number of her videos now, and while I don't agree with everything I saw (or at least, I don't always think that what she was talking about was problematic), I never thought she was acting as if there was some sort of conspiracy.
 
Mumei said:
Can you give an example of the something that was conspiracy level? I've watched a fair number of her videos now, and while I don't agree with everything I saw (or at least, I don't always think that what she was talking about was problematic), I never thought she was acting as if there was some sort of conspiracy.
Click to expand...

Her notion that there is some loosely affiliated effort to portray feminists as evil (Straw Feminist) was mildly conspiracy theory. It's taking an idea, (Someone who takes something too far, in this case man hating) and making it out to be "TV Producers / Hollywood is out to get us". She ignores in many cases the fact that they are shown to be over the top, the Powerpuff Girl episode being a great example.
 
I think Bayonetta at least gets some points for being interesting and at times subversive. One of the issues with these tropes is that they're widespread, over-used and not always obvious. And while Bayonetta shares the oversexualized trope with a ton of other games on the shelf(the main problem), she and the game are also extremely different and weird. The whole game flips the script many times. Even in general areas like her being a witch who summons demons fighting angels, or the main male character Luka having to stay out of the fights and take care of the kid for a good chunk of the game.

One of my favorite scenes for just how overtly subversive and playing-with-gender-roles it gets is when Bayonetta shoots one of those peeing Cherub statue fountain things right up it's penis. Some serious phallic reversal stuff goin on there that I don't entirely get, but its not something you see everyday in games. The scene's here, but yeah, NSFW.
 
zkylon said:
Here's her video on Bayonetta (annoying co-commentator warning): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgLw8tChxX4

It's a hard game for me to hate on, because I had the time of my life with it and I really liked how bombastically ridiculous Bayonetta's character was, but I can get how someone could find her offensive, with the whole nakedness and the Kamiya GIFs and all that.
Click to expand...

With a game like Bayonetta and Lolipop Chainsaw, there are divided views on the portrayal of these characters.

The people who are for these games, like having a female who uses her sexuality to overpower everyone (men, angels etc.). Sex is used in a tongue in cheeck way to make characters look in a better position than them only being used for one thing. This would be a fantasy from a female's perspective. It would also be a fantasy from a guy's perspective as long as it's not real I think.

The people who are against Bayonetta, don't like this kind of personality and using sex to overpower everyone. In the end, it's still about sex, albet in a different perspective. People want a more realistic portrayal where sex isn't always the focus.

It's perfectly normal to have different preferences and have both these personalities co-exist alongside each other. I personally think Kamiya didn't design Bayonetta for girls, he designed his own fantasy of a woman while knowing a certain type of female group is going to like it as well. In that sense, you win both genders with one game.

If you look at all the games released before it, I don't find it welcoming to have games like Bayonetta that focus on sex. I don't think that's a solution to the problems females have and it frankly makes things worse. It's easy from an outsider to look at Bayonetta and say it's sexist and made for guys.

Personally, I belong to the second group. I don't have problems with the ideas behind Bayonetta, it just feels too excessive. I know that's the point of the game, but I'm not looking for that kind of female portrayal.
 
Except Bayonetta doesn't focus on sex. (Neither does Devil May Cry 3, btw.)

I'm surprised no one ever mentions the Bayonetta (the character) and Luka romance plot. The power dynamic in that relationship is basically the opposite of what "tropers" come to exact.
 
TheMan said:
metroid, tomb raider (the new one), mirror's edge, BG&E, mass effect (if you so choose) all feature strong female characters that aren't over sexualized. so while those tropes that you list are common there are plenty of exceptions.
Click to expand...
Why does a woman have to be strong to be realistic?
 
I don't think all games are for all audiences, so that's fair enough. But I think games where messages on sexuality are more... insidious, inherent or just 'built-in' to the structure are more disturbing than ones which have at least put some amount of thought into its portrayal.
 
Riposte said:
Okay? Bayonetta isn't a YouTube montage.
Click to expand...

No, Bayonetta has scenes that are clearly very sexual in tone. Even in the gameplay you have her naked and covered by her hair only. Her taunts and moves being more sensual and distracting than just being fighting moves. Sex is used in your face, I find it surprising you say the game doesn't focus on sex.
 
RpgN said:
No, Bayonetta has scenes that are clearly very sexual in tone. Even in the gameplay you have her naked and covered by her hair only. Her taunts and moves being more sensual and distracting than just being fighting moves. Sex is used in your face, I find it surprising you say the game doesn't focus on sex.
Click to expand...

The gameplay elements do, yes, but the overall plot has little to nothing to do with it at all.
 
cj_iwakura said:
The gameplay elements do, yes, but the overall plot has little to nothing to do with it at all.
Click to expand...

That might be the case where the plot has little to nothing to do with it, but what does it matter if it's still plastered all over the game, and have the game marketed in that tone?

Do you think it's logical to have people play this game, who are offended by how sex is used say, what Bayonetta is doing is fine, because it doesn't have a lot to do with the plot? That's just selective memory, the tone has been set in other ways.
 
Jintor said:
It's not the focus but it's a pretty huge part of Bayonetta and its identity as a game.
Click to expand...

Sure, "sex appeal". I find this type of categorization silly because it relies on turning videogames into videos (which someone like the OP's topic seems to be only capable of doing as someone generally disinterested in videogames. This makes all comments on videogames pretty superficial and at best turns the medium into an irrelevant secondary (or rather, tertiary) battleground for a problem which is too complicated to be contained there). Bayonetta's, as a character, sultry mannerisms (along with her giant weapons, laser beam dodging, god punching, and angel slaughtering characteristics) only makes up a piece of a piece of the game. Personally I find it more amusing she acts like a fashion deva while committing the highest of blasphemy (basically the anti-Kratos who at least respects his godly opponents with a serious demeanor) than any sort of sexual titillation (moments where the former is absent and the latter is present do happen though, but they also happen to be funny and silly).

The lack of perspective is clear when someone says "Bayonetta isn't a female power fantasy", when actually Bayonetta is a power fantasy for anyone playing. They are trapped thinking in terms which doesn't necessarily apply to videogames.
 
Riposte said:
The lack of perspective is clear when someone says "Bayonetta isn't a female power fantasy", when actually Bayonetta is a power fantasy for anyone playing. They are trapped thinking in terms which doesn't necessarily apply to videogames.
Click to expand...

I'm not entirely sure if you meant me with this comment but I'd just like to point out that this is pretty much exactly what I said in my original reply:

The people who are for these games, like having a female who uses her sexuality to overpower everyone (men, angels etc.). Sex is used in a tongue in cheeck way to make characters look in a better position than them only being used for one thing. This would be a fantasy from a female's perspective. It would also be a fantasy from a guy's perspective as long as it's not real I think.
Click to expand...
 
RpgN said:
That might be the case where the plot has little to nothing to do with it, but what does it matter if it's still blastered all over the game, and have the game marketed in that tone?

Do you think it's logical to have people play this game, who are offended by how sex is used say, what Bayonetta is doing is fine, because it doesn't have a lot to do with the plot? That's just selective memory, the tone has been set in other ways.
Click to expand...

Bayonetta, much like Lollipop Chainsaw, wears its sexual campiness on its sleeve. If that sort of content offends you, they pretty much plainly say it is not the game for you.
 
cj_iwakura said:
Bayonetta, much like Lollipop Chainsaw, wears its sexual campiness on its sleeve. If that sort of content offends you, they pretty much plainly say it is not the game for you.
Click to expand...

Yes, there is no doubt about that with its tone (though I like its gameplay and overall quality). I just wanted to point out how females can be easily divided about a game of this kind. I hope developers don't think the problem is solved for females when they design these kind of games and say that appeals to all women.

Granted, this is being too specific with a minority group that doesn't have a lot of choice anyways. In the end, it's all about variety.
 
RpgN said:
Yes, there is no doubt about that with its tone (though I like its gameplay and overall quality). I just wanted to point out how females can be easily divided about a game of this kind. I hope developers don't think the problem is solved for females when they design these kind of games and say that appeals to all women.

Granted, this is being too specific with a minority group that doesn't have a lot of choice anyways. In the end, it's all about variety.
Click to expand...

I can think of lots of alternative games with strong female protagonists that in no way involve sexual themes. Heck, the last three Deception games all had female protagonists, and all they do is murder everyone stupid enough to get in their way.

So for people who like games like that, great, and if not, find something outside the camp umbrella.
 
Riposte said:
Sure, "sex appeal". I find this type of categorization silly because it relies on turning videogames into videos (which someone like the OP's topic seems to be only capable of doing as someone generally disinterested in videogames. This makes all comments on videogames pretty superficial and at best turns the medium into an irrelevant secondary (or rather, tertiary) battleground for a problem which is too complicated to be contained there). Bayonetta's, as a character, sultry mannerisms (along with her giant weapons, laser beam dodging, god punching, and angel slaughtering characteristics) only makes up a piece of a piece of the game. Personally I find it more amusing she acts like a fashion deva while committing the highest of blasphemy (basically the anti-Kratos who at least respects his godly opponents with a serious demeanor) than any sort of sexual titillation (moments where the former is absent and the latter is present do happen though, but they also happen to be funny and silly).

The lack of perspective is clear when someone says "Bayonetta isn't a female power fantasy", when actually Bayonetta is a power fantasy for anyone playing. They are trapped thinking in terms which doesn't necessarily apply to videogames.
Click to expand...

Are you arguing that because a video game is playable the same semiotic techniques used to study all other forms of media can't be used? Why not? You can apply them perfectly. Using that Bayonetta reel is fine, imagine applying any of those shots to an Uncharted character or the Princess from the Mushroom Kingdom. It would be hilarious to see, but you won't find them in the official games because they are intended to sexualise. The fact that you can find one of those shots, let alone three and a half minutes worth, within Bayonetta is telling.
 
Myansie said:
Are you arguing that because a video game is playable the same semiotic techniques used to study all other forms of media can't be used?
Click to expand...

I'm not. I'm arguing against simplifying games into something they are not. It is similar to ignoring context. When someone says a game is "this" or "that" in its ultimate form ("Bayonetta focuses on...") and then only looks at it in a superficial way it will only produce superficial results (which may be the goal in the first place given the motive doesn't really align with fully understanding videogames).
 
But things like animations or cutscenes aren't really affected by player agency (in terms of animations, I mean that players can't 'choose' what kind of animations occur, how an attack looks stylistically, etc) and that kind of thing doesn't need to be taken into consideration for that kind of analysis.
 
These threads always go around in circles. The point of Bayonetta is over the top stylish action. Bayonetta a character who very in touch with her sexuality uses that with in her combat style. She has a very distinct way of fighting and style which arguably would look terrible if performed by a male character. She's a unique character, so what if she's sexual? Women can't be sexual now? A character shouldn't be a representation of an average female, nor is the game trying to portray any realistic. She's caricature, in a similar vein of Dante. What is the problem here exactly?
 
2San said:
These threads always go around in circles. The point of Bayonetta is over the top stylish action. Bayonetta a character who very in touch with her sexuality uses that with in her combat style. She has a very distinct way of fighting and style which arguably would look terrible if performed by a male character. She's a unique character, so what if she's sexual? Women can't be sexual now? A character shouldn't be a representation of an average female, nor is the game trying to portray any realistic. She's caricature, in a similar vein of Dante. What is the problem here exactly?
Click to expand...

Well, she's not one character that exists in a vacuum. If the medium as a whole was full of strong, female characters that weren't overly sexualized, then random, isolated examples would probably be given a pass.
 
GrandHarrier said:
Sex sells.

Asking for most movie / tv / comic video game characters to not be sexualized is asking the sun not to rise.
Click to expand...

I don't think this is really a revelation to anyone. However, I'm not sure why that's supposed to work as a dismissal of concerns by people who take issue with the prevalence of this kind of content.
 
Steve Youngblood said:
I don't think this is really a revelation to anyone. However, I'm not sure why that's supposed to work as a dismissal of concerns by people who take issue with the prevalence of this kind of content.
Click to expand...

I don't intend it as a dismissal. My intention is merely to state a basic fact. But it begs the question if sexualization is inherently a negative thing? I don't think that it is. We are sexualized creatures. Consciously or unconsciously we are appraising men/women (as you prefer) all the time. We notice sex traits. We notice particular aspects we personally find attractive. So you could make the most unsexual character and if it fits what -I- find desirable, you've sexualized it.

This isn't excusing the portrayal of some questionable female characters, but I take issue with the basic premise that sexualized = Shallow, poorly written character. They exist independent of each other.
 
Steve Youngblood said:
Well, she's not one character that exists in a vacuum. If the medium as a whole was full of strong, female characters that weren't overly sexualized, then random, isolated examples would probably be given a pass.
Click to expand...
Why would that matter? This is a character that creators wanted to make. Why should they change their vision for the sake of I don't even know what.
 
Why do so many people act like this is a war on sexy? It's against overused tropes walking around as characters, especially ones that reinforce specific gender roles to the exclusion of all others. One of these overused tropes happens to be overly sexualized characters. There can still be plenty of sexy characters, nothing wrong with sexy in and of itself. There can be good characters that are also sexy. It's because there isn't enough variety and depth overall, and whats there are mostly these shallow tropes.

Edit: I personally really like Bayonetta, both the game and the character. I think there's interesting things going on in that game. The problem is when you take it within the context of the overall industry. You have an overabundance of sexualized characters, so even an interesting one ends up being another example of that specific overused trope. If there were more variety and depth and choice for characters, Bayonetta wouldn't necessarily be a problem by itself.
 
2San said:
Why would that matter? This is a character that creators wanted to make. Why should they change their vision for the sake of I don't even know what.
Click to expand...

I don't know if you really quite understand the point of such criticism. The end goal is not to call out individual creators and get them to change their works, but to challenge people to think about pervasive attitudes and perhaps consider whether this kind of content is necessary.

Questions are being raised like can and should female characters be written better in video games? How can we go about doing that? What kind of characters do we think can be shown as examples of potentially problematic portrayals of women?

The goal is not to get Bayonetta the director's cut released where the director reinvents the character to be more feminist friendly.
 
Steve Youngblood said:
I don't know if you really quite understand the point of such criticism. The end goal is not to call out individual creators and get them to change their works, but to challenge people to think about pervasive attitudes and perhaps consider whether this kind of content is necessary.

Questions are being raised like can and should female characters be written better in video games? How can we go about doing that? What kind of characters do we think can be shown as examples of potentially problematic portrayals of women?

The goal is not to get Bayonetta the director's cut released where the director reinvents the character to be more feminist friendly.
Click to expand...

Well, I see your point but on the other hand Feminist Frequency does call out individual works both as evidence of a pattern and the problem. The argument of "it's one game, the developers aren't Atlas" is rebutted with "the part of the problem/solution" dichotomy.

Ok, related question (raised by the Bayonetta vid): why is so much time spent emphasizing the appeal to the straight/heterosexual male? Compared to the demographics of men and women (and especially men and women in games; while "hardcore" gamers are overwhelmingly male women are pretty much equally represented overall, according to the ESA, and are a faster growing demographic) homosexuals simply aren't a large segment of the market.

According to the HuffPost, there are 4 million gays in the US (doesn't seem to include any other non-dominant sexualities or any of the other letters in LGBTQ etc.) That's on the low side of estimates, but even if you accept 3-5% of the population as homosexual that's a tiny demographic--so why are they surprised games generally take a heterosexual approach?
 
voodoopanda said:
Why do so many people act like this is a war on sexy? It's against overused tropes walking around as characters, especially ones that reinforce specific gender roles to the exclusion of all others. One of these overused tropes happens to be overly sexualized characters. There can still be plenty of sexy characters, nothing wrong with sexy in and of itself. There can be good characters that are also sexy. It's because there isn't enough variety and depth overall, and whats there are mostly these shallow tropes.

Edit: I personally really like Bayonetta, both the game and the character. I think there's interesting things going on in that game. The problem is when you take it within the context of the overall industry. You have an overabundance of sexualized characters, so even an interesting one ends up being another example of that specific overused trope. If there were more variety and depth and choice for characters, Bayonetta wouldn't necessarily be a problem by itself.
Click to expand...

To your edit: Isn't that sort of cutting the nose to spite the face? You can't appreciate a good game because other characters in other games are badly written?
 
GrandHarrier said:
To your edit: Isn't that sort of cutting the nose to spite the face? You can't appreciate a good game because other characters in other games are badly written?
Click to expand...
Not at all. You can appreciate a good game. Like I said, I really like Bayonetta. You can absolutely love something but still be aware with issues that the thing has, within whatever contexts. There's nothing wrong with enjoying a game and at the same time recognizing why part of it might be a problem. I personally wouldn't want Bayonetta changed, but I'd love to see more games that have a wider variety of characters. The problem is with overall trends within the industry, not just any one specific game. But you can use specific games as examples of these overused tropes, and as good as I think Bayonetta is, she is just another example of an overly sexualized character.
 
Maybe a problem I see with the issue of complaining about tropes in media is that if you spend enough time on TVTropes (and I avoid it, because if I get linked there that's an hour of my life sucked away reading stuff) you realize practically everything is a trope. There's a character out there who has done everything. What we call tropes are only tropes because in this day and age they've become more formalized and have proliferated. But the hope that you can subvert the trope or avoid them entirely is flawed--a good exercise I think would be to have FF write a story herself or pick some authors she thought did everything "right" and then tear them apart for tropes.

Whenever I hear the word "trope" is just bothers me because it's ultimately a reductionist argument that you can bend any way. If you think a character is sexist or whatever, make that argument but don't just fall into the lazy shorthand of "oh that's X or a manifestation of Y".

"Buffy the Vampire Slayer" has literally a trope every minute of screentime. But that means absolutely nothing in regards to its quality or its representation of gender, sexuality, politics, whathaveyou.
 
charlequin said:
I suspect Anita is not particularly concerned with the plight of the copyright-infringement websites here, frankly. A particular thing might be both predictable and understandable without being desirable. I don't think that many people would be surprised that torrent sites are covered in garbage porn advertising, but one can still lament the effects that walls of strobing images of semi-violent, domineering sexuality have upon the viewer and societhy as a whole.
Click to expand...
But when you problems you rail against don't even have a solution it sort of seems less like you're truly interested in changing society for the better and more that you just need a topic for the newest installment of your hit video series.

Riposte said:
I want to personally thank you guys for linking me to these videos. Now YouTube is inserting more of her videos right into my content stream as suggestions. Thank you so much for this gift.
Click to expand...
A fate worse than death.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Best Thunderstorms In Video Games
2
86
859
Polaris replied
Watching people pretend like they're being deprived of hot women in good video games nowadays is kinda weird to me
6 7 8 9 10
496
3K
Danjin44 replied
Gamespot: Death Stranding 2 - Questionable tropes around women / (archived)
Clickbait Review  2 3 4
190
4K
GymWolf replied
your favourite big wangs in video games
47
711
Signalis replied
I just love video games
Opinion  2
54
495
Sooner replied
Top Bottom