Support NeoGAF

[Nert]

I'm kind of being serious here, but what character? Chell is a voiceless soulless automaton without any personality.

I certainly can't speak on Anita's behalf, but Chell passes the shockingly low standard of just not being a shitty trope of some kind. She's not running around in heels, she doesn't have any vocal quips along the lines of "Bet you didn't think a girl could do that," she wasn't created as an object of male wish fulfillment, and she also happens to take an active role in the story. Chell is the one that realizes the reality of the situation she's in, Chell is the one that overcomes GLaDOS and escapes, etc.

I personally think that GLaDOS is a better character, for what it's worth. Beyond being very funny (female characters rarely get to be funny in games), she has a clearly expressed personality that fleshes out her motivations, as simple as they are.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

GlaDOS is the only good female character in Portal

 

[Suairyu]

Chell isn't a character

False. She doesn't have a defined personality but she is still a character that is designed.

Yeah don't get it either. Gordon Freeman isn't a character as well.

Same here. They have formed backstories and impacts on the world around them. Other characters react to them and help build a picture of the role you are inhabiting. They are very much avatars, yes, but they are still designed. They are visual models.

and Alyx is one of the most egregious examples of a mary sue in games.

I don't think you know what Mary-Sue means.

 

[sonicmj1]

Chell isn't a character and Alyx is one of the most egregious examples of a mary sue in games.

Well, I've never heard "Mary Sue" used in that way before...

I don't think Chell is a particularly interesting character, but even silent protagonists end up with some sort of personality, just through the actions they perform.

 

[GrandHarrier]

I certainly can't speak on Anita's behalf, but Chell passes the shockingly low standard of just not being a shitty trope of some kind. She's not running around in heels, she doesn't have any vocal quips along the lines of "Bet you didn't think a girl could do that," she wasn't created as an object of male wish fulfillment, and she also happens to take an active role in the story. Chell is the one that realizes the reality of the situation she's in, Chell is the one that overcomes GLaDOS and escapes, etc.

I personally think that GLaDOS is a better character, for what it's worth. Beyond being very funny (female characters rarely get to be funny in games), she has a clearly expressed personality that fleshes out her motivations, as simple as they are.

Her boots kind of look like heels.

I just have to disagree on Chell's character. She isn't one, imo. Shouldn't be used as an example.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

Her boots kind of look like heels.

I just have to disagree on Chell's character. She isn't one, imo. Shouldn't be used as an example.

A good example of not being actively negative, if anything.

 

[Glass Rebel]

The Whedon thing was just a joke but I think there's definitely a case to be made that he got a better grasp of making sexy and strong female characters than most developers. I don't think I've heard any female on GAF say they're against sexy. It's just the way they are presented being sexy. And I think presented is the keyword here.

For the record, I defended Crystal Dynamics in that other thread for various reasons but even TR had some very obvious ass-shots and mashed up titties. I think it's debatable whether the attempted rape scene is "necessary" (as in the sense "does it add anything meaningful to the story?") but camera-pans to show the good bits are pretty out of place and only there to show an object, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Nert]

A good example of not being actively negative, if anything.

Agreed.

 

[Riposte]

A good example of not being actively negative, if anything.

"Women should be seen, not heard"?

 

[ViewtifulJC]

Chell is neither seen nor heard

The least offensive character of them all!

 

[Suairyu]

Riposte, you are being actively stupid in this thread.

 

[Red Blaster]

False. She doesn't have a defined personality but she is still a character that is designed.

Using Chell as an example of a good female character is a little disingenuous since there isn't anything there; she effectively is a floating video camera.

I don't think you know what Mary-Sue means.

What does Alyx do besides making the player feel awesome with her constant winks and thumbs up?

 

[Suairyu]

What does Alyx do besides making the player feel awesome with her constant winks and thumbs up?

That's not what a Mary-Sue is.

Using Chell as an example of a good female character is a little disingenuous since there isn't anything there; she effectively is a floating video camera.

But the visual design of her character - what I was talking about - certainly fits as an example of a non-negative female character design. But yes, there's a reason I didn't give her a paragraph to herself.

 

[PrinceOfApathy]

I'll throw my hand in with female characters I thought were interesting, but sadly Anita would discredit them because of a few instances like Jill having to be rescued by Barry in RE1 or Carlos in RE3 although in RE3 it was very essential to the plot after a brutal struggle with he Nemesis Tyrant.

and more, but that's just my opinion, although Lenneth is questionable.

 

[sonicmj1]

What does Alyx do besides making the player feel awesome with her constant winks and thumbs up?

I have never heard "Mary Sue" used as a way of describing a character who makes the protagonist feel awesome.

Also, she takes care of herself, she cracks stupid jokes, she helps you out in various ways (opens doors and stuff), she gives the world context, she serves a human anchor to other major characters in the universe (especially Eli Vance), and she shoots zombies in the head. She's as useful and relevant as any side character in any other video game gets.

 

[Sibylus]

"Women should be seen, not heard"?

Theoretical physicists are evidently the shame of their generation too, not even fit to be seen by anyone!

What does Alyx do besides making the player feel awesome with her constant winks and thumbs up?

Has her own motivations and goals in the story, has her own biases and shortcomings, a plausible set of skills and talents given the setting, etc, etc, etc. The character's as much a Mary Sue as you are incisive, this is pretty bog standard "Mary Sue as Protagonist You Don't Like" on your part.

 

[Suairyu]

Seriously guys where on earth did you get your definitions of "mary sue" from? A Mary Sue is an author-insert. A flimsily veiled representation of the author in their own idealised viewpoint. They will likely be flawless and amazing, though may have a specific 'flaw' that isn't a flaw of character, like a vampire needing to drink blood (this is so the author can also feel victimised and so hard done by!). It is about writer empowerment, rather than reader/player empowerment.

Alyx being there to encourage the player is the opposite of a Mary Sue.

I'll throw my hand in with female characters I thought were interesting, but sadly Anita would discredit them because of a few instances like Jill having to be rescued by Barry in RE1 or Carlos in RE3 although in RE3 it was very essential to the plot after a brutal struggle with he Nemesis Tyrant.

You're not exactly being fair to Anita there. Like, at all. But such reduction of her position is certainly the standard in this thread.

"Damsel in distress"=/="Has to be rescued that time"

 

[PrinceOfApathy]

You're not exactly being fair to Anita there. Like, at all. But such reduction of her position is certainly the standard in this thread.

"Damsel in distress"=/="Has to be rescued that time"

Believe me if you have watched her videos, you wouldn't see how that could be a stretch the way she completely over analyses things or they go over her head.

EDIT: This is a person that has taken Maria Careys song all I want for Christmas is you, as something nefarious. When its a song about a woman in love with her boyfriend, who doesn't want material things but would rather spend time with a significant other.

 

[voodoopanda]

I dig fighting games, and one of the reasons why is, due to their nature, they have a wide assortment of characters, and while many of them can be stereotypes etc it's still nice to have. Every character is basically on equal footing and since there's so many in any one game, you get many different kinds of people, from all sorts of races, genders, backgrounds, etc. Chun-Li in SF2 is one of the earliest female characters in games I can think of who is pretty awesome. A cop who can go toe-to-toe with anybody else in the game and her design isn't overly sexualized.

 

[Suairyu]

Believe me if you have watched her videos, you wouldn't see how that could be a stretch the way she completely over analyses things or they go over her head.

I have watched her videos. We've discussed them on GAF before. The LEGO one is a good example.

Chun-Li in SF2 is one of the earliest female characters in games I can think of who is pretty awesome. A cop who can go toe-to-toe with anybody else in the game and her design isn't overly sexualized.

You've got to be kidding me with the bolded. She's a playable Marylin Munroe with how often the animations are designed to show off her pantsu ^^;;

 

[Fuchsdh]

Alyx fails as a character I think because she's constantly by your side and is just annoying. The game does not make NPCs any better by shackling them to you.

Cortana in the Halo series serves a similar function as Alyx, but her benefit is she's inside your head and thus not in need of rescue or escort. It's a better gameplay device, and I think that in turn makes me feel stronger about her as a character.

I think that's ultimately a big issue games have films and books don't--their characters have to be compelling from a story *and* gameplay perspective, and that's really hard to pull off.

 

[GrandHarrier]

Has her own motivations and goals in the story, has her own biases and shortcomings, a plausible set of skills and talents given the setting, etc, etc, etc. The character's as much a Mary Sue as you are incisive, this is pretty bog standard "Mary Sue as Protagonist You Don't Like" on your part.

She also falls in love with your silent protagonist and goes all puppy dog on him, despite him not acknowledging her in the slightest.

I have watched her videos. We've discussed them on GAF before. The LEGO one is a good example.

You've got to be kidding me with the bolded. She's a playable Marylin Munroe with how often the animations are designed to show off her pantsu ^^;;

HAVE YOU SEEN THOSE MANHANDS?

Spoiler

I'm okay with the manhands.

 

[Kinyou]

Her boots kind of look like heels.

Though that was even somewhat required to explain why there's no fall damage.

 

[Suairyu]

Fuchsdh, that's a very interesting point.

Personally, I never felt "shackled" to Alyx and always felt empowered with her by my side. She helped me and helped her. But if your experience was difference then I could see how she might be seen in a worse light.

At what point do we seperate character and ludic design, though? I mean, let's be honest here: the AI routines of an NPC might be beyond the scope of what Anita is (and should be) attempting with this series. I think she's very clearly drilling down on the visual and personal design of these characters and for good reason.

But this is definitely a tangent that could be explored further.

It's interesting, because Cortana is visually very much an idealised woman figure. I don't find that a negative, just a point I acknowledge. Yet, as you say, gameplay wise she is the epitome of usefulness. Her role is relegated somewhat to "damsel in distress" in Halo 3, but I don't feel it is in a way that lessens her character. It seems appropriate and well done (minus her stupid-quick mental recovery once you reach her).

She also falls in love with your silent protagonist and goes all puppy dog on him, despite him not acknowledging her in the slightest.

Does she? I see a friendship developing there. A level of mental intimacy, sure. Perhaps even sexual attraction. But I don't see love or puppy dog eyes or gooey, head-over-heels behaviour. Two sexually compatible people in a shit situation with each other, looking after each other, experiencing stuff together... certain thoughts develop. Tensions might build. But it isn't love, and certainly not in the pathetic light you try to show it.

 

[Sibylus]

She also falls in love with your silent protagonist and goes all puppy dog on him, despite him not acknowledging her in the slightest.

The thinnest veneer of sexual tension is now head-over-heels puppydog love? That's quite a stretch.

 

[voodoopanda]

You've got to be kidding me with the bolded. She's a playable Marylin Munroe with how often the animations are designed to show off her pantsu ^^;;

Well, compared to a lot of other women in fighting games she's pretty modestly dressed at least. It's kind of like the Chell example, not perfect but at least a little better than usual, I'd say. Low standards to beat.

 

[ironcreed]

I thought Nariko from Heavenly Sword was a sexy and strong female character that was done just about right.

 

[Suairyu]

Well, compared to a lot of other women in fighting games she's pretty modestly dressed at least. It's kind of like the Chell example, not perfect but at least a little better than usual, I'd say. Low standards to beat.

On visual design (only way you really can judge her), Chell is leagues beyond Chun-Li.

My own personal list of good or non-offensive female characters in games was short for a reason. I won't pander to "well, it's not as bad as it could be!" designs.

I thought Nariko from Heavenly Sword was a sexy and strong female character that was done just about right.

I loved her characterisation.

Her costume is unfortunately dogshit and blatant "fighting fuck toy" design. Completely impractical and inappropriate. She lives is a frozen tundra, for crying out loud, and gets up to acrobatic soldier-shivving and shit.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

The thinnest veneer of sexual tension is now head-over-heels puppydog love? That's quite a stretch.

God forbid she show some form of care towards another man that's not her father

 

[Fuchsdh]

Fuchsdh, that's a very interesting point.

Personally, I never felt "shackled" to Alyx and always felt empowered with her by my side. She helped me and helped her. But if your experience was difference then I could see how she might be seen in a worse light.

At what point do we seperate character and ludic design, though? I mean, let's be honest here: the AI routines of an NPC might be beyond the scope of what Anita is (and should be) attempting with this series. I think she's very clearly drilling down on the visual and personal design of these characters and for good reason.

But this is definitely a tangent that could be explored further.

It's interesting, because Cortana is visually very much an idealised woman figure. I don't find that a negative, just a point I acknowledge. Yet, as you say, gameplay wise she is the epitome of usefulness. Her role is relegated somewhat to "damsel in distress" in Halo 3, but I don't feel it is in a way that lessens her character. It seems appropriate and well done (minus her stupid-quick mental recovery once you reach her).

I think I've got a lower-than-average tolerance for "important" NPCs in games. Admittedly Alyx was better than, say, Noble Team in Halo: Reach (a perfect example of how all the well-done cinematics cannot make me care about a character who killed me by driving off cliffs during gameplay.)

Cortana is also an interesting character because in the fiction the AIs *choose* their own avatars. One is just a plain box, because he is disdainful of any organic relationships. Cortana is a sexualized version of her creator and "template"--something that says a lot about both of them.

From what I've heard, the "stupid-quick mental recovery" was a last-minute rewrite after the level designers shafted that mission and cut the story. That Frank O'Conner was involved with that and ended up at 343i doing the rampancy angle for Cortana in 4 is no accident, I'm sure.

 

[PrinceOfApathy]

I thought Nariko from Heavenly Sword was a sexy and strong female character that was done just about right.

Too much skin. Relies on sexuality. Not a good defense for us. She'd tear it apart, especially some of the hopping, splitting combos with skin exposed in sexual positions.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

"Women should be seen, not heard"?

That's exactly what I said, good job you win the prize.

 

[ironcreed]

Too much skin. Relies on sexuality. Not a good defense for us. She'd tear it apart, especially some of the hopping, splitting combos with skin exposed in sexual positions.

Ugh, I honestly give up. Nothing is ever good enough and there is something wrong with every character shown. I am glad I don't sit around over-analyzing every character in a videogame in hopes of finding the absolute perfect personification of what I think men and women should be. I just play and have fun. If I hate a certain character, oh well. Nobody is perfect, be it in games... or real life.

 

[voodoopanda]

On visual design (only way you really can judge her), Chell is leagues beyond Chun-Li.

My own personal list of good or non-offensive female characters in games was short for a reason. I won't pander to "well, it's not as bad as it could be!" designs.

I agree, I didn't mean visual design. I think I was mostly on a side-tangent about fighting games, due to their nature allowing a character like Chun-Li to exist and her being more interesting due to being equal to everyone else in the game mechanics-wise and story-wise, and being probably one of the first major female characters to do so? Not sure. I didn't put her in the list of good female characters I made a little earlier.

 

[GrandHarrier]

Does she? I see a friendship developing there. A level of mental intimacy, sure. Perhaps even sexual attraction. But I don't see love or puppy dog eyes or gooey, head-over-heels behaviour. Two sexually compatible people in a shit situation with each other, looking after each other, experiencing stuff together... certain thoughts develop. Tensions might build. But it isn't love, and certainly not in the pathetic light you try to show it.

He never talks to her. Over the course of three games.

 

[PrinceOfApathy]

Ugh, I honestly give up. Nothing is ever good enough and there is something wrong with every character shown. I am glad I don't sit around over-analyzing every character in a videogame in hopes of finding the absolute perfect personification of what I think men and women should be. I just play and have fun. If I hate a certain character, oh well. Nobody is perfect, be it in games... or real life.

Don't let it get to you on that level man. I personally find nothing wrong with Heavenly Sword besides the shallow combat mechanics. I'm perturbed, but interested at the same time. Even if I'm interested for the wrong reasons, because I know when the other videos land, its going to be a comedic shakedown.

 

[Suairyu]

Ugh, I honestly give up. Nothing is ever good enough

Actually, we've all posted character we reckon are good enough.

But sure, keep being okay with blatant sexualisation of females within the wider gaming industry and act like these derogatory tropes don't exist.

You can, for sure, play a game that has these and enjoy it. I love Bayonetta. Chun-Li is one of my favourite Street Fighter fighters to play as. I love the old Tomb Raider games.

You can still enjoy these things while pointing out we got a problem and criticising it.

He never talks to her. Over the course of three games.

Uh... it's called abstraction. He very likely is talking. But that cannot be shown in the videogame. The moments he is talking are filled in by the player. It is implied. The relationship is as much in your mind as it is in the game.

To actually think Gordon exists as a literal mute for the other characters is silly.

 

[Riposte]

If Chun Li looked exactly like Chell we would have the new problem of boring character designs stinking up a good looking fighting game with memorable, but unrealistic character designs.

 

[Red Blaster]

Seriously guys where on earth did you get your definitions of "mary sue" from? A Mary Sue is an author-insert. A flimsily veiled representation of the author in their own idealised viewpoint. They will likely be flawless and amazing, though may have a specific 'flaw' that isn't a flaw of character, like a vampire needing to drink blood (this is so the author can also feel victimised and so hard done by!). It is about writer empowerment, rather than reader/player empowerment.

I consider self-insertion to be different from a Mary Sue but I can acknowledge there isn't a universally agreed upon definition of the term.

Does she? I see a friendship developing there. A level of mental intimacy, sure. Perhaps even sexual attraction. But I don't see love or puppy dog eyes or gooey, head-over-heels behaviour. Two sexually compatible people in a shit situation with each other, looking after each other, experiencing stuff together... certain thoughts develop. Tensions might build. But it isn't love, and certainly not in the pathetic light you try to show it.

What friendship? Everything Alyx does in regards to Gordon is one-way since Gordon is a floating shotgun turret; it's more a criticism of HL2's shitty storytelling than Alyx being a bad character tho. I don't *dislike* Alyx but her mannerisms towards Gordon grew increasingly cringeworthy from HL2 to Episode 2.

 

[les papillons sexuels]

Dr Hasley is a decent female character in my opinion.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Dr Hasley is a decent female character in my opinion.

She's a hell of a lot better if you've read the books, as well. The games couldn't begin to touch on the complexities involved.

(Possible Anita interpretation: old, ugly, and bitchy female who needs to be shut up by the dominant male soldier.)

 

[Sibylus]

He never talks to her. Over the course of three games.

Freeman doesn't talk to anyone, it's kinda the narrative conceit they began with and have stuck with. Doesn't mean he's a literal mute who commands the fear and respect of everyone around him via expressive eyebrows and death glares.

 

[Suairyu]

Halo: Reach happily retconned the books.

Then again, the books happily retconned the books. Many times.

 

[GrandHarrier]

To actually think Gordon exists as a literal mute for the other characters is silly.

Chell is a literal mute. It's referenced at the end of Portal 2. So I don't see how its impossible for Gordon to be a mute too, since Valve hasn't given us any evidence to the contrary.

 

[ironcreed]

Don't let it get to you on that level man. I personally find nothing wrong with Heavenly Sword besides the shallow combat mechanics. I'm perturbed, but interested at the same time. Even if I'm interested for the wrong reasons, because I know when the other videos land, its going to be a comedic shakedown.

LOL, I am good. It just baffles me to see videogame characters broken down and over-analyzed for not being ideal representations of how some feel women and men should be portrayed. I love serious games with more accurate portrayals and I love ridiculous, exaggerated and over the top games as well. At the end of the day, I am just here for fun. That's all I have left to say on the matter.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Halo: Reach happily retconned the books.

Then again, the books happily retconned the books. Many times.

Not particularly. In fact, until you hit Contact Harvest in 2007, the books and games were remarkably in sync. The problems started building when they retconned when humanity encountered all the Covenant species (with Contact Harvest and Halo Wars), and then Reach rewrote the last half of The Fall of Reach.

Altogether they're still a fairly cohesive EU, and 343i seems interested in building the expanded fiction and game fiction together (although there have been difficulties, like how the Halo 3 terminals seem to be rewritten by the newest Greg Bear book.)

But that's another topic.

 

[Suairyu]

So I don't see how its impossible for Gordon to be a mute too, since Valve hasn't given us any evidence to the contrary.

Because his relationships with other characters suggest otherwise.

Not particularly. In fact, until you hit Contact Harvest in 2007, the books and games were remarkably in sync. The problems started building when they retconned when humanity encountered all the Covenant species (with Contact Harvest and Halo Wars), and then Reach rewrote the last half of The Fall of Reach.

Fall of Reach made the Harvest incident seem like it was over in an hour, glassed.

Contact Harvest made it seem like an epic struggle and OH LOOK there's Johnson.

 

[Sibylus]

Chell is a literal mute. It's referenced at the end of Portal 2. So I don't see how its impossible for Gordon to be a mute too, since Valve hasn't given us any evidence to the contrary.

Chell elects to not speak, whereas Freeman interacting is implied in nigh all of his appearances from HL2-onward (most blatantly in those little "E button" barks).

 

[Fuchsdh]

Because his relationships with other characters suggest otherwise.

Fall of Reach made the Harvest incident seem like it was over in an hour, glassed.

Contact Harvest made it seem like an epic struggle and OH LOOK there's Johnson.

Well until Contact Harvest fan's interpretation of the fall of the planet was "we lost contact and then a ship showed up and blowed stuff up", then Halo Wars made it sound like the battle for Harvest lasted years and it was never fully glassed.

But my point is for the most part, the canon of the books is respected (with Reach being the biggest rewrite). Compared to Star Wars or Star Trek it's an entirely different league where they at least try to reconcile things.

 

[Kinyou]

To actually think Gordon exists as a literal mute for the other characters is silly.

True. It's similar to the old mute RPG protagonists.