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[ViewtifulJC]

If Chun Li looked exactly like Chell we would have the new problem of boring character designs stinking up a good looking fighting game with memorable, but unrealistic character designs.

It reminds me of how Cole from Gears of War got so much shit because he's a black guy who plays into stereotypes or whatever the hell, because he's loud as hell and he played football and he's kinda childish in his exuberance("WOO! Yeah! Bring it on sucka!"). Well, Gears 3 added another black character named Jace, who doesn't have anything notable about him in fear of offending anybody, and he's boring as fuck. Meanwhile, Cole is one of the most popular characters in the series(much like Chun-Li is the most popular female character in SF).

I don't care if he doesn't meet some standards for respectable, non-stereotypical black character, he's FUN. He's a fun video game character, maybe my favorite in the series. Almost everything he says is hilarious, he's got a great chemistry and history with Baird(another teammate), and every time he leaves the game I feel a little sad.

 

[Suairyu]

It reminds me of how Cole from Gears of War got so much shit because he's a black guy who plays into stereotypes or whatever the hell, because he's loud as hell and he played football and he's kinda childish in his exuberance("WOO! Yeah! Bring it on sucka!").

I don't remember Cole getting shit. He was always exactly based off his actor.

I remember a high profile guy saying something along the lines of, "Cole is a great character, but the problem is we have far too many Cole-like characters in games."

 

[Bboy_Izilla]

Lol, it's great that you think it's fun.

 

[Bboy_Izilla]

I don't remember Cole getting shit. He was always exactly based off his actor.

I remember a high profile guy saying something along the lines of, "Cole is a great character, but the problem is we have far too many Cole-like characters in games."

shouts out to Barret

 

[ViewtifulJC]

I wouldn't trade one Cole for a hundred Jace Stratton/generic soldier guys

 

[Suairyu]

I wouldn't trade one Cole for a hundred Jace Stratton/generic soldier guys

Sure, but no-one is asking you to. Thread is full of false dichotomies. There are sensible middle-grounds.

 

[Platy]

Everytime I enter this thread it is diferent ....

At least NOW we are talking about women in gaming ! YAY !

I don't see how you'd think expanding that topic would make those men flip exclusively to the other side.

It would be offtopic ... it is cool to mention Spider-man in the Dark Knight Rises once in a while, but to focus the discussion on it would be problematic.

But look ! You are not a Junior .. so feel free to make a thread for both or only male problems

Wow I found this video while clicking on some links in this thread.

Are we being punked? Is she the female Colbert?

I was really interesting in reading it ... and then i saw in the author comments "Pt2 will be concentrating on this "White male privilege" nonsense. So stay tuned." and closed the video for fear of breaking my monitor =P

I'm kind of being serious here, but what character? Chell is a voiceless soulless automaton without any personality.

Just because she don't speak don't mean she is soulless .... she is an awesome character because she is YOU.

It is the basic design of a silent protagonist.... YOU choose when and how she speaks and what she does.

Also, someone without personality would not cry when you

Spoiler

burn your companion cube... c'mon, I KNOW you did ! ><

or any of the GLaDOS confrontation, specialy considering Portal 2 references to Portal 1

 

[Red Blaster]

Damn being at the bottom of the page

Seriously guys where on earth did you get your definitions of "mary sue" from? A Mary Sue is an author-insert. A flimsily veiled representation of the author in their own idealised viewpoint. They will likely be flawless and amazing, though may have a specific 'flaw' that isn't a flaw of character, like a vampire needing to drink blood (this is so the author can also feel victimised and so hard done by!). It is about writer empowerment, rather than reader/player empowerment.

I consider self-insertion to be different from a Mary Sue but I can acknowledge there isn't a universally agreed upon definition of the term.

Does she? I see a friendship developing there. A level of mental intimacy, sure. Perhaps even sexual attraction. But I don't see love or puppy dog eyes or gooey, head-over-heels behaviour. Two sexually compatible people in a shit situation with each other, looking after each other, experiencing stuff together... certain thoughts develop. Tensions might build. But it isn't love, and certainly not in the pathetic light you try to show it.

What friendship? Everything Alyx does in regards to Gordon is one-way since Gordon is a floating shotgun turret; it's more a criticism of HL2's shitty storytelling however. Gordon doesn't work as a silent protagonist because the entirety of HL2's story is about him being a god that everyone loves while simultaneously killing all the bad guys because every other member of the resistance is an idiot. I don't *dislike* Alyx, it's not like she's a BioWare character; but her fawning over Gordon comes off as ridiculous.

 

[tkscz]

At the risk of sounding a bit like a broken record, I don't think she missed the ending of that episode of the Powerpuff Girls. The ending just doesn't really matter in terms of postmodern criticism. The important thing is that it has a character who presents ostensibly feminist viewpoints while being portrayed negatively, and this character is consistent with other depictions of negatively portrayed characters presenting ostensibly feminist viewpoints. This episode of the Powerpuff Girls is therefore part of an emergent system which stigmatizes feminist viewpoints by portraying them unfairly, quod erat demonstrandum.

Remember that the thing being criticized is not an episode of the Powerpuff Girls, the thing being criticized is a portrayal of feminist characters across various media. The Powerpuff Girls are pretty much entirely ancillary to the discussion, and only serve as a single example of the trend under discussion.



Just so we're on the same page here, are you addressing this question to me, or is it rhetorical?

I understand that, but my point is that, if you speak on a professional level, you HAVE to bring up points like that. Other wise, you take the chance of making the entire thing look sexist, rather the one character. You can't speak professionally, and informatively without giving both sides of an argument, or details that would help give your speech more clarity. And with Video Games constantly getting bashed by the "postmodern thinker" what she says can easily make video games seem negative in the eyes of not just feminist, but females in general, further pushing the female audience away from video games, and make one of her purposes (to get gender equality in all medias) backfire.

 

[Sibylus]

I consider self-insertion to be different from a Mary Sue but I can acknowledge there isn't a universally agreed upon definition of the term.

Self-insertion is by far the most commonplace usage of the Mary Sue definition. There are others as well, but the problem is that Alyx doesn't even come close to meeting them. You have to remember the series as it never happened to do it.

 

[RpgN]

I'll throw my hand in with female characters I thought were interesting, but sadly Anita would discredit them because of a few instances like Jill having to be rescued by Barry in RE1 or Carlos in RE3 although in RE3 it was very essential to the plot after a brutal struggle with he Nemesis Tyrant.

I definitely agree with a lot of the female characters you listed, especially Resident Evil and Valkyrie Profile. Sure Jill gets rescued by Barry, but that's not a crime. It felt very natural and fitting to the game. Same with Claire. The Resident Evil 0 female character (forgot her name) was also a very good one, she's weak, yet strong and tries to make the right decisions. Resident Evil games are very good with characters, that is before we got to RE5. They totally ruined Chris (and his hideous costume), Sheva doesn't look bad but I don't like her (alt)outfit(s), RE Revelations had a couple of female characters that are more crappy. It's a shame we lost one of the elements that made RE games stand out, well designed characters.

I also like FF female characters, and then mostly FFVIII and FFX. In general I think all female characters are decent in FF games but their design is questionable sometimes (Tifa, Lulu, Ashe anyone?) and they don't always flesh characters out (FFXIII). Still it's a guilty pleasure with every FF game

Tomb Raider Legends and Anniversary were decent, I felt like they had a good balance with Lara there. Sexy, but not over the top, and she has a personality and history. It never felt forced.

Tales of games also have very decent characters imo. Sure they're a bit predictable, but they're usually well fleshed out and skits are an excellent way to have character interactions that add to the personality of every character.

There might be some more examples that don't come to mind right now.

Really, I don't mind if a female character is rescued and has a weak personality, I'd just like them to not focus on that only or have a female character to appear for a couple of seconds and then she's there only to get rescued, like she can't take of herself and has nothing to add to the game/plot.

With Mario games it's charming and not meant to be offensive, so I don't direct that to every game XD

 

[sonicmj1]

I consider self-insertion to be different from a Mary Sue but I can acknowledge there isn't a universally agreed upon definition of the term.

Self insertion isn't strictly necessary for Mary Sues, but there's still nothing about Alyx that fits any definition of the term.

My understanding is that Mary Sues are excessively perfect characters that warp stories around them. Everyone loves them, they're kind and wonderful to everybody, they can solve problems that more qualified people struggle with, etc.

Alyx is nice to Gordon, but there's not really anything remarkable about her, even in the context of the universe. If anyone could possibly fit that kind of trope, it'd be Gordon "The Free Man" Freeman, who can defeat every enemy with his gun, and who every single allied person can't stop gushing over. But as a silent protagonist, he doesn't have enough characterization for something like that.

 

[M3d10n]

I definitely agree with a lot of the female characters you listed, especially Resident Evil and Valkyrie Profile. Sure Jill gets rescued by Barry, but that's not a crime. It felt very natural and fitting to the game. Same with Claire. The Resident Evil 0 female character (forgot her name) was also a very good one, she's weak, yet strong and tries to make the right decisions. Resident Evil games are very good with characters, that is before we got to RE5. They totally ruined Chris (and his hideous costume), Sheva doesn't look bad but I don't like her (alt)outfit(s), RE Revelations had a couple of female characters that are more crappy. It's a shame we lost one of the elements that made RE games stand out, well designed characters.

Don't forget that if you play Jill in RE1 you actually get to rescue Chris.

 

[PrinceOfApathy]

I definitely agree with a lot of the female characters you listed, especially Resident Evil and Valkyrie Profile. Sure Jill gets rescued by Barry, but that's not a crime. It felt very natural and fitting to the game. Same with Claire. The Resident Evil 0 female character (forgot her name) was also a very good one, she's weak, yet strong and tries to make the right decisions. Resident Evil games are very good with characters, that is before we got to RE5. They totally ruined Chris (and his hideous costume), Sheva doesn't look bad but I don't like her (alt)outfit(s), RE Revelations had a couple of female characters that are more crappy. It's a shame we lost one of the elements that made RE games stand out, well designed characters.

I also like FF female characters, and then mostly FFVIII and FFX. In general I think all female characters are decent in FF games but their design is questionable sometimes (Tifa, Lulu, Ashe anyone?) and they don't always flesh characters out (FFXIII). Still it's a guilty pleasure with every FF game

Tomb Raider Legends and Anniversary were decent, I felt like they had a good balance with Lara there. Sexy, but not over the top, and she has a personality and history. It never felt forced.

Tales of games also have very decent characters imo. Sure they're a bit predictable, but they're usually well fleshed out and skits are an excellent way to have character interactions that add to the personality of every character.

There might be some more examples that don't come to mind right now.

Really, I don't mind if a female character is rescued and has a weak personality, I'd just like them to not focus on that only or have a female character to appear for a couple of seconds and then she's there only to get rescued, like she can't take of herself and has nothing to add to the game/plot.

With Mario games it's charming and not meant to be offensive, so I don't direct that to every game XD

I don't think Rinoa is a good example, because Feminist Frequency would destroy that trope since Rinoas main, sole , existence is to find some good in Squall and improve his life. Infact she actually has a trope for that. A pixie something. These aren't my words, these are hers. The only female in FFVIII that could be used is Quistis, because she does mostly things of her volition. Not even Edea would pass the grade since she's the trope of the sexy evil seductress. Final Fantasy X, XII would all be condemned for mass bigotry.

 

[charlequin]

Her notion that there is some loosely affiliated effort to portray feminists as evil (Straw Feminist) was mildly conspiracy theory.

There's a difference between a conspiracy theory (the idea that a disparate group of people are all actively communicating with one another in order to achieve a secret goal) and a sociological theory (that a disparate group of people are all acting subconsciously on cultural and societal biases that collectively produce an effect that they might not have individually intended or recognized.) Almost all discussions of how media tropes intersect with sexism involve the latter.

But when you problems you rail against don't even have a solution it sort of seems less like you're truly interested in changing society for the better and more that you just need a topic for the newest installment of your hit video series.

This problem has, on one level, an incredibly simple set of solutions: if creators were broadly aware of these tropes and the problematic effects they can have, if they avoided using them thoughtlessly, if they engaged directly with them when they did feel the need to use them, and they considered creating more works that treat gender in unusual or unexpected ways, it would be a huge victory.

And on the other hand, well, injustice is everywhere in human life and will never be eradicated entirely, but it's still worthwhile to push back against it. Media will probably never be in a state where it never delivers any sexist messaging, but that's no reason to throw your hands up in the air and say "pointless to even try!"

I'm not sure I understand how a game excludes or makes a person feel unwelcome.

Right, because from the perspective of a person in a majoritarian group, trying to see how someone in a marginalized group feels about their cultural representation is very difficult. That's part of why these short and sweet ideas like the Bechdel test take off -- it's hard to explain how different your experience as a whole is to someone else, but it's easier to encapsulate some tiny part of it, like "I have to hunt far and wide to find a single movie that passes this test when the gender-swapped version applies to literally 99+% of all films."

 

[GrandHarrier]

Right, because from the perspective of a person in a majoritarian group, trying to see how someone in a marginalized group feels about their cultural representation is very difficult. That's part of why these short and sweet ideas like the Bechdel test take off -- it's hard to explain how different your experience as a whole is to someone else, but it's easier to encapsulate some tiny part of it, like "I have to hunt far and wide to find a single movie that passes this test when the gender-swapped version applies to literally 99+% of all films."

Except I play games that have female protagonists and when I can character create my own, I often create female avatars and I don't feel excluded? I guess, what I am saying, is I can play something like Mirror's Edge or Beyond Good and Evil, two games lauded for well written females, and having literally no idea what it is like to actually be a female, still enjoy them.

I've also played games where I'm shit that isn't even human. Still doesn't feel exclusionary. I don't need to play as average male to feel a connection to a game. Almost none of the games I play are characters that even remotely resemble who and what I actually am. Not even "male power fantasies". They are as alien to me as anything else.

 

[charlequin]

It's interesting you say that, because Feminist Frequency likes him for his work on Buffy the Vampire Slayer, but downright condemns his vision on Doll House.

Not sure why that's surprising, really. The general audience position on his work is also that Buffy is great and Dollhouse is shitty.

You can't have a girl kick ass and be attractive at the same time, because then it's the "fighting fucktoy". You can't have a girl be weak, because then she's the damsel in distress. You can't have an ugly person have negative qualities, because then you're saying "unattractive equals evil".

The only way to win the game is not to play.

Let me assume that this is an earnest frustration from trying to engage with these ideas. The idea that you "can't win" here is clearly exaggerated: people have cited quite a few female characters that are seen as positive in the thread. What is true, however, is that you can't win just by swapping out one shallow characterization for another. It's really not all that difficult for characters that are well-developed -- Buffy's not a "fighting fucktoy" because she doesn't present herself in an overly sexual way and is written with emotional depth, Arya in GoT isn't a damsel in distress because of how she grows to react to her circumstances (and because there are tons of other, distinct female characters with agency around her), etc.

I can't speak for everyone, but I know I'm personally much more willing with female characters who are richly developed to forgive some flaws and rough edges (Yuna from FFX/X-2 has some serious issues but her overall development over two games and protagonist role in the second outweigh them to me, for example.) The use of female characters almost entirely as foils to male main characters, or as fantasy fill-ins for the presumed male player, makes it much harder to avoid the problems this thread is talking about.

Except I play games that have female protagonists and when I can character create my own, I often create female avatars and I don't feel excluded?

This is, like, literally exactly what I was just talking about?

The whole point of citing the Bechdel test is to show how you (a man) have a choice that a given woman does not. You have a huge smorgasbord of male figures and male-oriented narratives to choose from... and you can even choose to try to invest yourself in a female character, if you really feel like it! That choice is simply not available to women; there aren't titles that aim to put you in a maternal role towards a young kid (like The Last of Us does for men), or play the role of a heroic, romantic hero towards the love interest (the way you do in, say, Prince of Persia: Sands of Time), or any of a hundred other roles that simply aren't represented. That absence, combined with the more egregious examples of dehumanized and poorly-written women in male-oriented games, is exactly what causes that feeling of disconnection, and it's not possible to get that just by making a direct analogy to the experience you have of gender in games as a man.

 

[GrandHarrier]

The whole point of citing the Bechdel test is to show how you (a man) have a choice that a given woman does not. You have a huge smorgasbord of male figures and male-oriented narratives to choose from... and you can even choose to try to invest yourself in a female character, if you really feel like it! That choice is simply not available to women; there aren't titles that aim to put you in a maternal role towards a young kid (like The Last of Us does for men), or play the role of a heroic, romantic hero towards the love interest (the way you do in, say, Prince of Persia: Sands of Time), or any of a hundred other roles that simply aren't represented. That absence, combined with the more egregious examples of dehumanized and poorly-written women in male-oriented games, is exactly what causes that feeling of disconnection, and it's not possible to get that just by making a direct analogy to the experience you have of gender in games as a man.

Okay, maybe I'm not explaining myself clearly. It doesn't really matter who I play as in any game. If I play, say, a Transformers game, I'm a giant robot that what turns into a car. It's the same as playing as a guy or a girl or a Unicorn in any game to me. I don't really care who my protagonist is.

Except for Squall.

Fuck Squall.

Arya in GoT isn't a damsel in distress because of how she grows to react to her circumstances (and because there are tons of other, distinct female characters with agency around her), etc.

Spoiler

Wasn't she saved, by a man? How is that not damsel in distress?

 

[Akainu]

Are you suggesting women shouldn't be seen except through portals and never heard? </Sarcasm>

It's every mans dream. </Sarcasm>

I'm kind of being serious here, but what character? Chell is a voiceless soulless automaton without any personality.

The robots have more character.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Let me assume that this is an earnest frustration from trying to engage with these ideas. The idea that you "can't win" here is clearly exaggerated: people have cited quite a few female characters that are seen as positive in the thread. What is true, however, is that you can't win just by swapping out one shallow characterization for another. It's really not all that difficult for characters that are well-developed -- Buffy's not a "fighting fucktoy" because she doesn't present herself in an overly sexual way and is written with emotional depth, Arya in GoT isn't a damsel in distress because of how she grows to react to her circumstances (and because there are tons of other, distinct female characters with agency around her), etc.

Earnest frustration as opposed to what?

You don't seem to have read my other points--everything is a trope, and using tropes as an example of why something is bad is bullshit. A weak guy is a trope, just like a weak woman. A roided muscle-bound guy is a trope, the same for a woman. If you buy into this idea of there being "good" and "bad" tropes, then it's impossible to please anyone because whatever you create will always fall into categorized buckets.

Tropes don't have feelings or agendas. They are merely bits of plot or lines of dialogue that are used, overused, neglected for years or rediscovered.

 

[Platy]

Okay, maybe I'm not explaining myself clearly. It doesn't really matter who I play as in any game. If I play, say, a Transformers game, I'm a giant robot that what turns into a car. It's the same as playing as a guy or a girl or a Unicorn in any game to me. I don't really care who my protagonist is.

Except for Squall.

Fuck Squall.

You have the option.

There are probably more Cats and Dogs protagonists of games than Women protagonists of games =P

Lets try the privilege list ...

17. As a child, I could choose from an almost infinite variety of children&#8217;s media featuring positive, active, non-stereotyped heroes of my own sex. I never had to look for it; male protagonists were (and are) the default.

20. I can turn on the television or glance at the front page of the newspaper and see people of my own sex widely represented.

41. Assuming I am heterosexual, magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media is filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are rarer.

46. I have the privilege of being unaware of my male privilege.

It is not just "not caring about playing with a girl, a men or a unicorn" .... it is being trowed in your face how society sees your gender as less

Spoiler

Wasn't she saved, by a man? How is that not damsel in distress?

That only happened because her actions ... SHE took the action and requested help after discovering that as a child, she would not be able to do this alone.

And she basicaly

Spoiler

manipulated and owned one of the most badass characters of the show ! I mean ... HOW does that dude went to prision ?

 

[Htown]

Okay, maybe I'm not explaining myself clearly. It doesn't really matter who I play as in any game. If I play, say, a Transformers game, I'm a giant robot that what turns into a car. It's the same as playing as a guy or a girl or a Unicorn in any game to me. I don't really care who my protagonist is.

His entire point is that you don't have to care because you are in a privileged position of having a character that represents your gender/race/culture available to you at pretty much all times.

It's the difference between caring that "not all characters look like me" and caring that "almost no characters look like me."

If you can't take thirty seconds to think about how there is a substantial difference there, you should probably just give up.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

You have the option.

There are probably more Cats and Dogs protagonists of games than Women protagonists of games =P

Lets try the privilege list ...

17. As a child, I could choose from an almost infinite variety of children’s media featuring positive, active, non-stereotyped heroes of my own sex. I never had to look for it; male protagonists were (and are) the default.

20. I can turn on the television or glance at the front page of the newspaper and see people of my own sex widely represented.

41. Assuming I am heterosexual, magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media is filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are rarer.

46. I have the privilege of being unaware of my male privilege.

It is not just "not caring about playing with a girl, a men or a unicorn" .... it is being trowed in your face how society sees your gender as less



That only happened because her actions ... SHE took the action and requested help after discovering that as a child, she would not be able to do this alone.

And she basicaly

Spoiler

manipulated and owned one of the most badass characters of the show ! I mean ... HOW does that dude went to prision ?

I don't get number 20, how are women not represented on tv? And the newspaper it depends and I don't see how that affects anyone. Do people actually get upset at a woman not being on the front page of a newspaper every day? I read pretty much only german newspapers and all I see usually is Merkel or sometimes but rarely Schäuble.

 

[GrandHarrier]

His entire point is that you don't have to care because you are in a privileged position of having a character that represents your gender/race/culture available to you at pretty much all times.

It's the difference between caring that "not all characters look like me" and caring that "almost no characters look like me."

If you can't take thirty seconds to think about how there is a substantial difference there, you should probably just give up.

Okay? There are games out there that will pretty much have your preferred character to play. Are we to understand that if we can't play X (in this case, female) in a game its instantly exclusionary? What about Mario games? Can a woman never play a Mario game without feeling excluded?

Where do games like Transformers fit it? Are they representing men somehow because they have masculine voices while actually being giant robots???

Does there need to be a quota system? X number of games with men for Y number of games with women? Where do gendered creatures of non-human status fall into this?

I don't feel privileged because my type of person is never represented in games. Unless merely being a man, even one that I can't relate too, somehow represents me. I am not Nathan Drake. I am not Marcus Fenix. I am not Gordon Freeman. Playing as them doesn't make it easier to relate to them or feel represented than if I play as Faith, or Chell, or Jade.

 

[conman]

I wonder if the underlying problem has more to do with "natural" seeming characters versus "comic book" style characters. Most of the positive female characters that people refer to are much more "natural" and fleshed out.

But does that mean we can't have caricatured or exaggerated female characters? I'd like to think that we can. We'd just need to find things other than sexuality or victimization to exaggerate. Right?

 

[udivision]

I wonder if the underlying problem has more to do with "natural" seeming characters versus "comic book" style characters. Most of the positive female characters that people refer to are much more "natural" and fleshed out.

But does that mean we can't have caricatured or exaggerated female characters? I'd like to think that we can. We'd just need to find things other than sexuality or victimization to exaggerate. Right?

I don't think we can, which kind of relates too how you can't parody/satire sexism without being sexist. Or basically, too many females are already caricatures.

 

[Xenon]

I was really interesting in reading it ... and then i saw in the author comments "Pt2 will be concentrating on this "White male privilege" nonsense. So stay tuned." and closed the video for fear of breaking my monitor =P

Funny you bring that up because after watching that I feel the same way about the lady from Feminist Frequency. It's hard to take someone serious when their bias is so obvious and contemptuous.

 

[twobear]

Of course Chell is a character. She's just defined by the way other characters react to her rather than the way she reacts to them.

 

[pmj]

Funny you bring that up because after watching that I feel the same way about the lady from Feminist Frequency. It's hard to take someone serious when their bias is so obvious and contemptuous.

Have you watched her videos yet?

 

[ElectricBlue187]

Did you watch her videos yet?

I watched her Bechtel Oscars one. Although her facts were right enough she did nothing to explain why we need movies that pass the Bechtel test to be nominated for oscars. How is this requirement of women talking to other women going to make movies better, more watchable, more entertaining? I just don't see it.

 

[Femmeworth]

Just because she don't speak don't mean she is soulless .... she is an awesome character because she is YOU.

It is the basic design of a silent protagonist.... YOU choose when and how she speaks and what she does.

Also, someone without personality would not cry when you

Spoiler

burn your companion cube... c'mon, I KNOW you did ! ><

or any of the GLaDOS confrontation, specialy considering Portal 2 references to Portal 1

I hate that reasoning so much. Silent protagonists are just poor writing, especially in first-person shooters. You don't even get to make any superficial choices in Portal or Half-Life.

 

[Terra Firma]

His entire point is that you don't have to care because you are in a privileged position of having a character that represents your gender/race/culture available to you at pretty much all times.

It's the difference between caring that "not all characters look like me" and caring that "almost no characters look like me."

If you can't take thirty seconds to think about how there is a substantial difference there, you should probably just give up.

The population of Muslims on this planet is over 1.5 billion. Name me one game where Muslims are shown in a positive light or even representative of Muslims. The population of Hindus is around 1.2 billion. Name me one game where the Hindus are shown in a positive light and not just stereotypes. The population of China is about 1.3 billion. Name me one game where a person who is Chinese is shown in a non-stereotypical way and is representative of an average Chinese person.

On the other hand, although there may not be as many games where women aren't more than sex objects and eye candy, there still are games where women are much more than that (sometimes even to the detriment of male characters). This is especially noticeable in games where you can choose the sex of your character at the start.

Let's look at Dragon Age, for example - particularly DA 1. Morrigan and Leliana and even Wynne do not fit into any of the stereotypes that the lady in the video says exist in video games. In fact, I'd say the game negatively portrays the men, as either being thick and whiny (Alistair), lecherous and opportunistic (Zevran), or too drunk to care or be serious about anything (Oghren).

 

[Nert]

I watched her Bechtel Oscars one. Although her facts were right enough she did nothing to explain why we need movies that pass the Bechtel test to be nominated for oscars. How is this requirement of women talking to other women going to make movies better, more watchable, more entertaining? I just don't see it.

She pretty clearly said that movies can still be entertaining or worthwhile even if they don't pass the Bechdel Test (for the purposes of this thread, it's also worth pointing out that she claims to enjoy video games and has clearly played many of them). The test is just one of many ways of demonstrating that there's a prevalent pattern of most stories being stories about men, written for men, and usually written by men. Almost every film ever made will have two men talking to each other and advancing the plot in some way, but it's shockingly rare for two women to talk to each other for any reason other than to talk about a man. That should strike people as being strange.

So the significance of the Bechdel Test is that it's a simple way of showing how men are the default centers of stories and that women, on average, don't get as much to do. Another way of looking at it: it's normal for comedies starring men to be released, while films like Bridesmaids are seen as different and daring simply for having women as the stars.

 

[PrinceOfApathy]

I don't get number 20 either. From the time I was growing up as a young boy seeing Golden Girls on the Television to women having their own TV sitcoms in droves. Country singers, actors. Black, white, hispanic and things such as Desperate Housewives women have ample TV space. Hell women even have an entire channels dedicated to them. Limetime, Oxygen. Video games however are behind I admit.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

She pretty clearly said that movies can still be entertaining or worthwhile even if they don't pass the Bechdel Test (for the purposes of this thread, it's also worth pointing out that she claims to enjoy video games and has clearly played many of them). The test is just one of many ways of expressing that there's a prevalent pattern of most stories being stories about men, written for men, and usually written by men. Almost every film ever made will have two men talking to each other and advancing the plot in some way, but it's shockingly rare for two women to talk to each other for any reason. That should strike people as being strange.

So the significance of the Bechdel Test is that it's a simple way of showing how men are the default centers of stories and that women, on average, don't get as much to do.

Totally understand and agree with that just don't see how that is a problem in need of fixing. There's also a shocking lack of black men talking to other black men, Asians doing anything other than kung fu, should writers be forced to make more movies where that happens to fit that or any other arbitrary requirement some slighted group comes up with? I don't think so.


This sort of shaming only leads to shallow crap interactions to fit this or that metric, not meaningful interesting fiction

 

[Nert]

Totally understand and agree with that just don't see how that is a problem in need of fixing. There's also a shocking lack of black men talking to other black men, should writers be forced to make more movies where that happens to fit that or any other arbitrary requirement some slighted group comes up with? I don't think so.

This false dichotomy of "status quo or force people in to writing something they don't want to" is... well, false. There are middle grounds. There can be more choices, more diversity, and better writing without taking away anything that already exists. Feminists don't intend to censor and destroy everything they happen to dislike. I'm participating in this thread as someone that loves Crank 2: High Voltage, an exceedingly puerile and sexist film (well, it's satirical in how it approaches much of it, but whatever).

Starting from the hopefully agreeable premise that it's okay for consumers to give feedback to producers as to what they want to buy, it should then be accepted that it's okay for people that like video games to ask developers to craft games that are more to their taste. A lot of people on this forum, for example, consistently claim that they're tired of shooters and they want a wider variety of genres to be represented in AAA games. I personally want more games like Rayman Legends instead of more games like Call of Duty: Black Ops 2 and I tend to say as much here.

By asking for a different type of product to be made more often, you're not saying that you want everything else to vanish. Most feminists wouldn't have a problem with, say, a handful of games like Bayonetta existing, if there were plenty of other choices in terms of how women are represented. Spreading awareness and having discussions like this is one of the first steps, and a necessary one, in letting developers know that there's a demand for something different.

 

[M3d10n]

41. Assuming I am heterosexual, magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media is filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are rarer.

I'm not sure imagery of scantly clad males is as effective as a marketing tool for targeting females as it the opposite is for targeting males. Otherwise nude male magazines would sell as well as nude female ones.

 

[pmj]

Totally understand and agree with that just don't see how that is a problem in need of fixing.

We are all shaped by the societies we live in. We get our values from the people that surround us, and the media we consume.

If you are with me so far, wouldn't you agree that negative stereotyping has the power to harm?

 

[Platy]

I don't get number 20, how are women not represented on tv? And the newspaper it depends and I don't see how that affects anyone. Do people actually get upset at a woman not being on the front page of a newspaper every day? I read pretty much only german newspapers and all I see usually is Merkel or sometimes but rarely Schäuble.

I don't get number 20 either. From the time I was growing up as a young boy seeing Golden Girls on the Television to women having their own TV sitcoms in droves. Country singers, actors. Black, white, hispanic and things such as Desperate Housewives women have ample TV space. Hell women even have an entire channels dedicated to them. Limetime, Oxygen. Video games however are behind I admit.

Everything that is serious on tv has a men in front of it.
Hell ... the only female comedian that is a talk show host is Ellen .. and her show is not even prime time =P

The newspaper ?
What usualy is on the front page of newspapers ?
Politicis, people of power .... the amount of women in those positions is laughable (to no cry)

Entire channels dedicated to them ... that talks about fashion, cooking and house cleaning.

I watched her Bechtel Oscars one. Although her facts were right enough she did nothing to explain why we need movies that pass the Bechtel test to be nominated for oscars. How is this requirement of women talking to other women going to make movies better, more watchable, more entertaining? I just don't see it.

Besides what Nert said, this was like the third video about the Bechtel test that she made ... hard to comment on something without seeing the before videos ... try some of the Tropes Vs Women videos ... they are closer to what we will get probably.

1- The Manic Pixie Dream Girl
2- Women in Refrigerators
3- The Smurfette Principple
4- The Demon Seductress
5- The Mystical Pregnancy
6- The Straw Feminist

I hate that reasoning so much. Silent protagonists are just poor writing, especially in first-person shooters. You don't even get to make any superficial choices in Portal or Half-Life.

I think silent protagonists are an interesting way of giving linear games a choice of immersion ... like with Zelda and Half Life 2 .... you can totaly see yourself answering and doing those stuff and it kinda feels because you want to help, instead of just following a quest (even If sometimes it is hard to understand why exactly it matters to finish those dungeuns in zelda =P)

But it is hard to argue that Half Life and Portal have poor writing.

And Chrono Trigger is awesome, but that game is not exactly linear

I'm not sure imagery of scantly clad males is as effective as a marketing tool for targeting females as it the opposite is for targeting males. Otherwise nude male magazines would sell as well as nude female ones.

Have they tryed ?
How many nude male magazines exists that are targered to women and not gay males ?

I want to see a nude male magazine that has Ryan Gosling in the cover and see THAT not sell =P

 

[Femmeworth]

I think silent protagonists are an interesting way of giving linear games a choice of immersion ... like with Zelda and Half Life 2 .... you can totaly see yourself answering and doing those stuff and it kinda feels because you want to help, instead of just following a quest (even If sometimes it is hard to understand why exactly it matters to finish those dungeuns in zelda =P)

But it is hard to argue that Half Life and Portal have poor writing.

And Chrono Trigger is awesome, but that game is not exactly linear

Admittedly, Portal pulls it off much better than Half-Life. I consider the former to have much better writing generally than the latter. Chrono Trigger works because the rest of the cast is so interesting, except for when

Spoiler

Crono dies, which was very poorly handled.

 

[WrenchNinja]

Just because she don't speak don't mean she is soulless .... she is an awesome character because she is YOU.

It is the basic design of a silent protagonist.... YOU choose when and how she speaks and what she does.

Also, someone without personality would not cry when you

Spoiler

burn your companion cube... c'mon, I KNOW you did ! ><

or any of the GLaDOS confrontation, specialy considering Portal 2 references to Portal 1

She has a cool character design but she is not a good character. She doesn't have any thoughts or opinions or goals or ideas or anything. Her being "good" because she's the "player" is a total cop out.

 

[Akainu]

Entire channels dedicated to them ... that talks about fashion, cooking and house cleaning.

Do you also see a problem with women that choose to be housewives or wear dresses?

And Chrono Trigger is awesome, but that game is not exactly linear

But Crono sucks.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

This false dichotomy of "status quo or force people in to writing something they don't want to" is... well, false. There are middle grounds. There can be more choices, more diversity, and better writing without taking away anything that already exists. Feminists don't intend to censor and destroy everything they happen to dislike. I'm participating in this thread as someone that loves Crank 2: High Voltage, an exceedingly puerile and sexist film (well, it's satirical in how it approaches much of it, but

When you take a list of Oscar nominated movies and criticize each one for not passing the Betchel test it's implicit that you think more movies that pass the test should be nominated/created. Seeing as we live in a world where a finite amount of movies are going to be created/considered for oscars you do believe such things should be made to the exclusion of others, whether you enjoy the others or not.

 

[M3d10n]

Have they tryed ?
How many nude male magazines exists that are targered to women and not gay males ?

I want to see a nude male magazine that has Ryan Gosling in the cover and see THAT not sell =P

They did, but:

in 2003, Mark Graff, President of Trans Digital Media, the brand management firm for Playgirl TV, stated that 50% of Playgirl's readership are gay men.

In a February 2010 interview with the Associated Press, Playgirl spokesman Daniel Nardico stated that he considers the magazine appealing to both men and women, although the audience is predominantly male.

Seems there are more men interested in nude males than women. I don't know if it's solely upbringing or something biological, but it's undeniable that women's sexual attraction is far more complex and diverse than men's and cannot be exploited solely by "dirty" pictures.

 

[Akainu]

They did, but:



Seems gay? men are more interested in nude males than women.

?

but it's undeniable that women's sexual attraction is far more complex and diverse than men's and cannot be exploited solely by "dirty" pictures.

women - face, wallet?

men - face, body?

 

[M3d10n]

?

You'd be surprised.

 

[Platy]

Admittedly, Portal pulls it off much better than Half-Life. I consider the former to have much better writing generally than the latter. Chrono Trigger works because the rest of the cast is so interesting, except for when

Spoiler

Crono dies, which was very poorly handled.

A good writing is essential to a silent protagonist as much as to any character.

A game with only the silent protagonist and nobody esle talking would be complicated xD

Spoiler

....or maybe not ... Super Mario Bros and all xD

She has a cool character design but she is not a good character. She doesn't have any thoughts or opinions or goals or ideas or anything. Her being "good" because she's the "player" is a total cop out.

Who says she is good ?
GLaDOS seems to have a diferent opionion on the subject hehehe

And she don't do good, she just want to escape.
If that is a feeling you can't relate to, we might have a problem totaly not related to this thread =P

Do you also see a problem with women that choose to be housewives or wear dresses?

But Crono sucks.

Crono don't suck .... he is just around people much more awesome than him =P

I don't have absolutly ANY problem with women who choose to be housewives, wear dresses, high hells, corsets and depilate in every oportunity

I only think the OTHER 398 types of women needs representation too.

They did, but:

Seems there are more men interested in nude males than women. I don't know if it's solely upbringing or something biological, but it's undeniable that women's sexual attraction is far more complex and diverse than men's and cannot be exploited solely by "dirty" pictures.

Interesting ... it could also be explained about how women are told since they are little of how wrong it is to explore their sexuality ...

 

[Femmeworth]

Crono don't suck .... he is just around people much more awesome than him =P

I don't have absolutly ANY problem with women who choose to be housewives, wear dresses, high hells, corsets and depilate in every oportunity

I only think the OTHER 398 types of women needs representation too.

Heh.

 

[Shurs]

1- The Manic Pixie Dream Girl

I just watched this one. I thought it was a bit underwhelming. First of all, she pretty much just takes something a writer on the AV Club wrote and gives examples of it, not expanding on the thought whatsoever, only tossing in that she also disapproves.

Outside of movie tropes, that she takes issue with creators saying that they've been inspired by women is disappointing. People cite people who inspire them all of the time, whether they're male of female. If I said that my girlfriend inspired me to make something of myself, that doesn't mean that I think of that as her only function.

Also, supporting characters are generally underwritten. It's the nature of trying to fit so much in to the relatively short running time of a film.

I support her doing these videos. I guess I just wish that she'd go a bit deeper. That initial video seemed superficial.

 

[PrinceOfApathy]

Lifetime and Oxygen aren't dedicated to women cleaning, clothes etc. etc. That would be the Food Network and stuff like DiY, although I do watch the Food Network to see Guys Big Bites, but I digress Fran Drescher, Reba, Greys Anatomy, Private Practice, the new series with moon faced girl about Church Divas in the South. Real Housewives of A.B.C tons of shows on BET. God I go on forever Television is mostly female oriented.