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[Mumei]

With regards to the otherization debate:

But that happens to me, too!

"In attempting to communicate with you, the Marginalised Person™ may bring up examples of the sorts of daily manifestations of discrimination they face. Many of these examples seem trivial to Privileged People® but clearly reflect the way the Marginalised Person™ has been “othered” by society. “Othering” is a system of social markers that defines “Us” and “them”, neatly and conveniently categorising people into their appropriate places within society. It’s a way of defining a secured and positive position in the world by stigmatising “others”. In other words, it’s the process of dehumanising anyone different to the Chosen Privileged.

...

What this demonstrates is your total lack of understanding of what “othering” means in a practical sense. You’re ignoring the way your life is otherwise entirely immersed in a state of absolute privilege and revealing the fact you fail to comprehend the process of objectification and marginalising they go through all the time. When you are Privileged®, “similar” experiences simply do not happen on an equal footing because they do not otherwise reflect marginalisation.!"​

 

[GamerSoul]

write women realistically and don't just use the same two or three basic tropes. that's my advice. getting more women involved in writing your game would help too. TV shows that don't specifically cater to women, which have women in the writing room, tend to offer much more realistic and balanced takes on the gender than ones that don't have women involved in the writing.

ignore if you can the audience, isn't fiction that paints women very narrowly just poorly written?

Good points. And it is poorly written fiction, imo, but in gaming it's a little more rampant across multiple genres so it's more accepted as just the way it is.

Also, Gamersoul, what is your avatar from btw?

>.> It's part of some fan art I found of Wario Land's Captain Syrup. I want her in Smash WiiU so I rep her no matter how pointless :l

Staying away from gendered tropes is probably a good thing. I do think "just writing a dude, but make it female" doesn't work, as it can end up being weird. But keeping things like practicality and self-dignity in mind
comes a long way in designing characters.


When I think of my own female designs/characters I try to make their appearance alone a significant factor in making them not just feel like especially sexy/overtly female pin-up dolls and fanservice machines.
Though I'm not sure if I'm unwillingly still sticking to bad tropes, that's always hard to figure out.

Writing a dude as a female is another way of tackling the issue, imo. It may not be the best way to go about it but if done right it can really show that certain women can play the part. That is only one of the many ways a female characters can be portrayed though. I think appearance has a lot to do with it. But I hope the guys making the decisions see that a character can easily be appealing/attractive without the stereotypical design. Though the look of a character is only part of the problem.

 

[CaptainSchwann]

So....honest question. Does anyone know what Anita plans on doing with the additional $100k she's been pledged on kickstarter?

 

[Neoriceisgood]

Writing a dude as a female is another way of tackling the issue, imo. It may not be the best way to go about it but if done right it can really show that certain women can play the part. That is only one of the many ways a female characters can be portrayed though. I think appearance has a lot to do with it. But I hope the guys making the decisions see that a character can easily be appealing/attractive without the stereotypical design. Though the look of a character is only part of the problem.

I think a big thing with "designing" a character with male tropes in mind and writing a character as a guy have subtle differences.


With a lot of characters I try to go for certain tropes/ideas that aren't necessarily gendered, and don't decide on their gender until I've got a basic grasp of what role I want them to play.

Then the actual execution of their tropes and role is obviously based on their gender and design, but I didn't specifically pick a super gendered trope to begin with.


I think a character like Captain Syrup probably fits this mold just as well, truth to be told. The fact that she's a thieving pirate captain & end boss might've come before her actual design. At no point do I feel like she's built upon (badly) gendered tropes.

 

[Akainu]

So....honest question. Does anyone know what Anita plans on doing with the additional $100k she's been pledged on kickstarter?

Make off like...a person with a lot of money.

 

[Augemitbutter]

if you want a respectful and well written female main character, look in here

nobody would expect that of a game with that title, but it's true. appreciate, or face the consequences.

 

[Frustrated_Grunt]

So....honest question. Does anyone know what Anita plans on doing with the additional $100k she's been pledged on kickstarter?

Depends on her ethics I guess, which is a known risk when using Kickstarter. She could use the money to expand her project, give it to a cause or whatever, but I wouldn't blame her if she decided to keep quite a bit of it for herself. Not attacking her, but I'd assume many people would take the money and run.

 

[ixix]

i do wish everyone in this thread would play Lollipop Chainsaw, because while it's absolutely guilty of some of the stuff we're bitching about being the norm (not bitching about it existing though!) it does some other stuff that's very uncommon and at times even seems to have something to say about the topic.

i sense some people would be highly offended and others overly defensive of it. you could write a thesis on just that one game alone.

that said, i think it's overuse of a given trope that's harmful. there's nothing wrong with the occasional sex object or sexy ass kicker, what's harmful is when that's all you present and people start thinking that's the norm.

it's also boring if that's all you run into.

Juliet's characterisation in Lollipop Chainsaw is pretty standard, but it's the characterisation of everything else that makes it interesting. I can't think of many games where the monogamist female lead is openly insulted by being called a slut and a whore (as many attractive women are insulted), and i can't think of any character more emasculated than her boyfriend Nick, who is teenage girl dream non threatening boyfriend material even before he gets his body cut off and gets turned into an accessory.

it's utterly fascinating.

Lollipop Chainsaw's incredibly overt in how it plays around with the way video games portray women. In the tutorial stage it casually mentions that you can use the right analog stick to look up Juliet's skirt while ineffectually chastising the player for doing so. The first boss

Spoiler

uses gendered insults as a form of direct attack, with the words appearing in gigantic red letters that you have to dodge

. Nick is clearly creeped out by how Juliet doesn't really view him as a person, with the two most direct examples I can recall being

Spoiler

the conversation in stage 2 where Juliet mentions how handy it would be if he had an MP3 player so she could carry her iPod and her boyfriend in her purse and he flat-out asks her if she realizes how degrading that is, and the entire scene that starts off stage 5 where Rosalind is tossing him in the air and putting makeup on him, and the existential crisis he experiences for the duration of the stage with Juliet's constant failed attempts to cheer him up and/or convince him to get over it.

The game's clearly aware of the greater context of its imagery, and it directly challenges attempts to off-handedly dismiss it as something that simply popped out of the ether fully-formed. I posted my impressions in the official thread directly after finishing it, and I stand by my summary of how I felt about the game overall:

It's pretty sophomoric, but I quite like how it satirizes video games' casual objectification of women in the same way that No More Heroes satirized the casually sociopathic wish fulfillment archetypes of video game protagonists.

 

[Onemic]

Did she post any videos yet? Interested in seeing how they turn out.

 

[GamerSoul]

I think a big thing with "designing" a character with male tropes in mind and writing a character as a guy have subtle differences.


With a lot of characters I try to go for certain tropes/ideas that aren't necessarily gendered, and don't decide on their gender until I've got a basic grasp of what role I want them to play.

Then the actual execution of their tropes and role is obviously based on their gender and design, but I didn't specifically pick a super gendered trope to begin with.


I think a character like Captain Syrup probably fits this mold just as well, truth to be told. The fact that she's a thieving pirate captain & end boss might've come before her actual design. At no point do I feel like she's built upon (badly) gendered tropes.

You sir. Made some great points.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

You sir. Made some great points.

Why thank you. I appreciate that coming from a fellow Syrup for Smash supporter.

 

[bhlaab]

How is THIS sexualized? I mean seriously. She's dressed like a woman doing sports, which is totally appropriate for the game. And normally you don't even see her in the game at all. I mean how is she supposed to dress?

I think it was more of a worry pre-release. Anytime a character is re-designed people tend to look for the motivation behind it. Chell went from Portal 1 being covered up to her neck in a jumpsuit to Portal 2 where she's showing significantly more skin.

This caused people to worry that it was an attempt to make her sexier, but hopefully after playing they've seen that wasn't really the case-- the commentary tracks in particular say that the redesign actually indicates an evolution in her character's pathos.

 

[Roto13]

I think it was more of a worry pre-release. Anytime a character is re-designed people tend to look for the motivation behind it. Chell went from Portal 1 being covered up to her neck in a jumpsuit to Portal 2 where she's showing significantly more skin.

This caused people to worry that it was an attempt to make her sexier, but hopefully after playing they've seen that wasn't really the case-- the commentary tracks in particular say that the redesign actually indicates an evolution in her character's pathos.

Chell from Portal 1 also had a really ugly face.

 

[Pyccko]

I think it was more of a worry pre-release. Anytime a character is re-designed people tend to look for the motivation behind it. Chell went from Portal 1 being covered up to her neck in a jumpsuit to Portal 2 where she's showing significantly more skin.

This caused people to worry that it was an attempt to make her sexier, but hopefully after playing they've seen that wasn't really the case-- the commentary tracks in particular say that the redesign actually indicates an evolution in her character's pathos.

Well shoot, I just figured it was cause the labs turned into a rainforest and it was too hot and humid to have the top up.

 

[plagiarize]

Lollipop Chainsaw's incredibly overt in how it plays around with the way video games portray women. In the tutorial stage it casually mentions that you can use the right analog stick to look up Juliet's skirt while ineffectually chastising the player for doing so. The first boss

Spoiler

uses gendered insults as a form of direct attack, with the words appearing in gigantic red letters that you have to dodge

. Nick is clearly creeped out by how Juliet doesn't really view him as a person, with the two most direct examples I can recall being

Spoiler

the conversation in stage 2 where Juliet mentions how handy it would be if he had an MP3 player so she could carry her iPod and her boyfriend in her purse and he flat-out asks her if she realizes how degrading that is, and the entire scene that starts off stage 5 where Rosalind is tossing him in the air and putting makeup on him, and the existential crisis he experiences for the duration of the stage with Juliet's constant failed attempts to cheer him up and/or convince him to get over it.

The game's clearly aware of the greater context of its imagery, and it directly challenges attempts to off-handedly dismiss it as something that simply popped out of the ether fully-formed. I posted my impressions in the official thread directly after finishing it, and I stand by my summary of how I felt about the game overall:

the thing is though, that it still portray's Juliet as a sex object. it's just self aware about it. i'm loving the game, and i think the writing is good, and i think its approach to gender roles is really interesting, but it's still 'sexy kick ass chick'. it's a really good example of that trope, but it's still that self same trope even if it definately makes you think more about the objectification of women in gaming than most games provoke.

Nick however is unlike anything i've seen in gaming before.

 

[ixix]

the thing is though, that it still portray's Juliet as a sex object. it's just self aware about it. i'm loving the game, and i think the writing is good, and i think its approach to gender roles is really interesting, but it's still 'sexy kick ass chick'. it's a really good example of that trope, but it's still that self same trope even if it definately makes you think more about the objectification of women in gaming than most games provoke.

Nick however is unlike anything i've seen in gaming before.

This is more or less the thrust of my comparison to No More Heroes, beyond the obvious similarities in how it plays and the fact that both are made by Grasshopper. Travis in No More Heroes is a pretty scathing representation of what a generic member of the primary video game consuming demographic would look like were their fantasies to come true, but he also functions as a straight representation of his archetype if you choose to overlook the satirical aspects of his character.

Juliet's prurient appeal is obvious, but she's also portrayed as competent and dedicated, she possesses personal agency, she's not portrayed as an accessory of a man, rather her boyfriend is portrayed as an accessory to her (and she goes so far as to bluntly call him an accessory on multiple occasions because Grasshopper only likes subtlety when there's a lot of it), and two explicitly patriarchal character openly defer to her expertise. She's also a ditzy blonde cheerleader who sexily chainsaws zombies. Ignore the ways in which she subverts her archetype and she's an entirely by-the-books implementation of it, just like Travis.

There's not really any way to argue that Lollipop Chainsaw represents an attempt to curry broad appeal from female game players without looking insane in the process. It's clearly targeted at a male audience. It panders to a typical male video game purchasing demographic, but it does so by taking its pandering elements to extremes that begin to make them look ridiculous and then refusing to present them uncritically.

The degree to which this represents an improvement relative to typical video game presentations of female characters is debatable, no doubt. I'm inclined toward a somewhat generous interpretation of the way in which the game treats its subject matter, but the degree to which I enjoy the game's soundtrack may be unfairly biasing my stance.

 

[squidyj]

There's nothing inherently wrong, but there is a lot more virtue in being realistic and nuanced imo.

realism as a value is imo misplaced, there isn't really such a thing. It will all feel heavily stylized at some point. Nuance and subtlety are definitely worth striving for, subtextual layers and whatnot can add a lot to a work.

 

[tranciful]

How is THIS sexualized? I mean seriously. She's dressed like a woman doing sports, which is totally appropriate for the game. And normally you don't even see her in the game at all. I mean how is she supposed to dress?

Just look where the arrow is pointing!

 

[Platy]

Just curious, I've been wondering this for a while:

Do you guys know any female-specific tropes that are actually quite positive/good ?

It is acrualy very hard to find ANY trope that is good, since it's basic definition is that it is a cliche and in most of the times cliches are used because of lack of crativity, wich means sucking =P

You can count the "male with boobs" wich might be the "less worst" or the "worst" of then all if you think about ... since it includes an INTEREST in creating a good female character, but fails miserably by just writing a male ....with boobs (usualy lots)

Other than this post, how else can they effectively attempt to balance the many characteristics of women in games while not trying to cater to a certain group. And are there good examples?

Taking away everything closely related to gender is an interesting aproach ... specialy because it gave us games like Kirby and Yoshi Island

Giving a selection, when used for good (like Demon/Dark Souls) is another ... but usualy it is used to give EVEN more bad representation

But the basic is always the Game of thrones' dude quote :

 

[TAJ]

It wasn't the boots that are designed like high heels?

Lolno... They're supposed to be like these.
http://www.gadgetcraver.com/powerjumperspogoboots-p-152.html

 

[rohlfinator]

Just look where the arrow is pointing!

Dat... bicep?

It is acrualy very hard to find ANY trope that is good, since it's basic definition is that it is a cliche and in most of the times cliches are used because of lack of crativity, wich means sucking =P

I dunno if I'd go quite that far -- if you go by TV Tropes' standards, pretty much anything is a trope due to the fact that it's really hard to come up with something that hasn't been used before in one form or another. Take the most creative work you can think of, and they probably have a multi-page list of tropes in it. (But that's just me being kind of pedantic. And I've been spending way too much time on TV Tropes lately. )

 

[mudkyp]

So....honest question. Does anyone know what Anita plans on doing with the additional $100k she's been pledged on kickstarter?

Seeing as how she asked for only 6k and in the last few days has received around 60k, I bet she's a tad bit overwhelmed. Up to the point of the huge influx, she's had very exact plans for the money. Seeing as how this is above and beyond what she expected, it'll probably take her some time to figure out what she can do with the extra money.

 

[Onemic]

Seeing as how she asked for only 6k and in the last few days has received around 60k, I bet she's a tad bit overwhelmed. Up to the point of the huge influx, she's had very exact plans for the money. Seeing as how this is above and beyond what she expected, it'll probably take her some time to figure out what she can do with the extra money.

Make a fighting game out of it, Tropes vs Women in Videogames featuring the tropes as the evil doers out to destroy the world and the women as the heroines out to kick some trope ass! Each trope is a cpu boss you must beat in order to get to the next stage Street Fighter style.

Spoiler

When I first checked out this thread, this is literally what I thought the kickstarter project was for, didn't know you could use it for things other than funding videogame development ;p

 

[cj_iwakura]

Seeing as how she asked for only 6k and in the last few days has received around 60k, I bet she's a tad bit overwhelmed. Up to the point of the huge influx, she's had very exact plans for the money. Seeing as how this is above and beyond what she expected, it'll probably take her some time to figure out what she can do with the extra money.

Could always give it to Child's Play.

 

[Platy]

Spoiler

When I first checked out this thread, this is literally what I thought the kickstarter project was for, didn't know you could use it for things other than funding videogame development ;p

...you need to check kickstarter more =P

It has WAY more things than videogames ...

This one that lets you use BANANAS to play games is one of my favorite of the non-gaming related. It is so awesome that it is one of the records for "omfg that was WAY more money than they asked"

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

.... damn.

 

[Femmeworth]

Nice.

 

[Sophia]

I... think I have a new favorite author. >.>;

 

[Platy]

I dunno if I'd go quite that far -- if you go by TV Tropes' standards, pretty much anything is a trope due to the fact that it's really hard to come up with something that hasn't been used before in one form or another. Take the most creative work you can think of, and they probably have a multi-page list of tropes in it. (But that's just me being kind of pedantic. And I've been spending way too much time on TV Tropes lately. )

It is more a problem of how the tropes are used ..... there lots of shows with averted tropes, tropes played for laughs, metalinguistic tropes or just few tropes.

Last Action Hero is a very good example of how trope overkill is not bad when used wisely

 

[John Rabbit]

i just got to the jet mission in battlefield 3 where you play a female co-pilot. i thought that was neat since they didn't have to make it a female character.

 

[Wiseblade]

Nice.

I... think I have a new favorite author. >.>;

Have you actually read a book of his though? I'm working my way through GoT now, and he sure likes to narrate about women's breasts. ¬_¬

 

[charlequin]

So....honest question. Does anyone know what Anita plans on doing with the additional $100k she's been pledged on kickstarter?

No, because she hasn't said and she doesn't need to say. Stretch goals are always completely optional on Kickstarter and successful project owners are welcome to just keep any cash above and beyond what's needed to deliver on the product and rewards they promised.

My guess is that she will in fact come up with a plan to utilize it and explain it to backers eventually, but people who levy that as a criticism of the project are really kind of missing the point.

Have you actually read a book of his though? I'm working my way through GoT now, and he sure likes to narrate about women's breasts. ¬_¬

You could pretty much keep a feminist studies/literature program at a University running forever just on GRRM. As an experiment once (after getting into a debate on this topic with a friend) I did searches for "feminist fantasy 'song of ice and fire'" and "misogynist fantasy 'song of ice and fire'" and came up with a split of opinion right down the middle.

 

[WorstUsernameEver]

But the basic is always the Game of thrones' dude quote :

Splendid quote, I think it encapsulates the issue perfectly.

Though, as a little aside, I found it interesting that just a few days ago I had read a piece on how George R.R. Martin's literature is creepy, over-reliant on rape and sexist cliches and exploitative (there was also a response piece on that, and both came from feminist blogs). I can't really tell if that's true because, despite having started Game of Thrones, I haven't had the time to read beyond the first two chapters, which don't feature female characters at all.

Ehr, anyway, sorry, I admit that wasn't really too much in line with the topic, so I apologize for that.

EDIT: Ehr, curiously I've been anticipated by Charlequin on that.

 

[RoboGeorgeForeman]

Not trying to downplay the issue but I did find this fairly humorous.

 

[WorstUsernameEver]

It could be argued that some might find the notion of "races" and among them orcs, goblins, etc. generally depicted as evil, ugly and undeserving of mercy, an unconscious (?) application of racist norms to a fictional setting, and that most fantasy is in fact both sexist and racist. It's not something I necessarily agree with, and it deserves a topic in its own right, but that parody was probably more right on the money than the creators realized.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

It could be argued that some might find the notion of "races" and among them orcs, goblins, etc. generally depicted as evil, ugly and undeserving of mercy, an unconscious (?) application of racist norms to a fictional setting, and that most fantasy is in fact both sexist and racist. It's not something I necessarily agree with, and it deserves a topic in its own right, but that parody was probably more right on the money than the creators realized.

I agree with this. It's why I avoid having stuff like (traditional) orcs in any of my stories.





I hope one of her videos comes out soon, I want it.

 

[Platy]

Anita Sarkeesian, Video Game Rape Culture, and Why Online Harassment Is Not a Joke

[...]And as a media critic who does a lot of feminist work, I hate the fact that I’m grateful for the fact that I’m not harassed for doing my job.

Which is why I was so angry to hear about what’s happened to Anita Sarkeesian. For anyone who’s unfamiliar with her plight, Sarkeesian wanted to start a project to cover a subject that’s not exactly radical: the portrayal of women in video games. Her YouTube account, in which she explains the project, was flooded with comments equating her to the KKK, calling her a “fucking hypocrite slut,” comparing the project to an act of war, and flagging the video as promoting hatred or violence.

[...]

But the whole incident is a reminder of how deeply some men are invested not simply in the structures that provide them tangible advantages, but in the conventions that let them wallow in culture that indulges their worst, stupidest impulses. And if folks are willing to fight this hard against someone doing criticism of culture, there are others who will do worse to preserve the laws that give them privilege in the world. Culture in this area, as in so many others, is a canary in a coal mine. And women who complain about online harassment aren’t being oversensitive: they’re trying to stop an ugly cycle before it spirals out of control. Both psychologically and substantively, it’s key to our ability to do our work.

 

[Messofanego]

Games with a admirable portrayal of female characters IMO. Some old, some new. Just the ones that come to my mind.


Beyond
Dreamcast D2
Metal Gear Solid(Olga,. Meryl, Boss, etc)
Breakdown
Gears of War series
Silent Hill 3
Tomb Raider
Splinter Cell

Press X to Hit.

 

[Kabouter]

Press X to Hit.

Slightly out of context I would say .

 

[ultron87]

Press X to Hit.

Grim was being pretty shitty at that point, if I recall.

Or was she undercover and you needed to maintain her cover? I don't remember.

 

[Mzo]

Anonymous trolls online post scandalous-sounding that they themselves don't believe for shock value and to make their friends laugh. News at 11.

 

[BigDes]

Anonymous trolls online post scandalous-sounding that they themselves don't believe for shock value and to make their friends laugh. News at 11.

Which doesn't make it any less hurtful to be on the receiving end

 

[AppleMIX]

Grim was being pretty shitty at that point, if I recall.

Or was she undercover and you needed to maintain her cover? I don't remember.

Yep, nothing to see here folks.

 

[NotTheGuyYouKill]

Press X to Hit.

She told him to do it.

 

[Barakov]

Grim was being pretty shitty at that point, if I recall.

Or was she undercover and you needed to maintain her cover? I don't remember.

It was the latter from what I remember.

 

[rollingstart]

Grim was being pretty shitty at that point, if I recall.

Or was she undercover and you needed to maintain her cover? I don't remember.

She's undercover and asks Sam to hit her to make his escape look real. But at the same time Sam is angry at Grim for

Spoiler

lying about his daughter's death

and acts more aggressively than he needed to.

 

[CaptainSchwann]

No, because she hasn't said and she doesn't need to say. Stretch goals are always completely optional on Kickstarter and successful project owners are welcome to just keep any cash above and beyond what's needed to deliver on the product and rewards they promised.

My guess is that she will in fact come up with a plan to utilize it and explain it to backers eventually, but people who levy that as a criticism of the project are really kind of missing the point.

Didn't say she did. My personal opinion aside though, Kickstarter really is an example of the "bandwagon effect".

Spoiler

For the record I'm really all for anything that goes against the re-enforced stereotypes, gender roles, tropes, etc. in our society. I personally just feel like $100k could have done a lot of good elsewhere.

 

[cj_iwakura]

I don't expect an answer, but I wrote Anita suggesting she donate the extra cash to a charity. Can't hurt to ask.

 

[Femmeworth]

I don't expect an answer, but I wrote Anita suggesting she donate the extra cash to a charity. Can't hurt to ask.

That would be a good idea.

 

[Platy]

Game of thrones can pass to have lots of breasts and dicks and sex because it is a MEDIEVAL story and medieval times were all about sex and gore =P

That said, a good amount of those tits and sex are used by women to show power over the men's minds .... how to be manipulative and powerfull in insanly machist times.

...but lets get back to the topic !!!!



Another update

This time with a media roundup

It is worth mention the 2 interviews : Gamespot and PMS Clan

Have to sleep soon, so no review or quotes for any of those interviews yet

--------

also, 2,284% funded with 27 hours to go