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[Vermillion]

Men don't aspire to be attractive the same way that women do, a big part of it I think is earning recognition from other men. Obviously we talking in very broad strokes here.

Interesting... many of the guys I know do it for the women. But something else I've heard from women is that they "don't dress for men, they dress for other women." And the way that a lot of younger girls treat each other seems to reflect that - they try to be attractive for other women. So while it is excessive, it does appear to be something that women aspire to.

 

[Atrus]

On what planet? Only female children are regularly subject to infanticide and male children are widely seen as more valuable in most societies.

This one.

Men have a genetic ancestral lineage that is half as long as a woman's. They have far higher mortality rates across the board and are conceived as being disposable.

The value of a male lies in his ability to gain assets and protect property acquired, a concept which invariably places the value of the life as being less than that of anything deemed to be property. This is inclusive of cultures where women and children themselves are quantified as property, as noted by the actual jargon used by cultures to define their social practices.

Males in cultures practicing infanticide are not kept alive because they are male but for the expectations placed upon them. They would similarly face ostracism or annihilation if their capabilities were handicapped in their function (deformation, homosexuality, retardation,etc.) Furthermore, there have been examples wherein males are either exiled or killed due to various cultural practices, rendering the idea that 'only' female babies are killed as nonsense.

 

[Vermillion]

This one.

Men have a genetic ancestral lineage that is half as long as a woman's. They have far higher mortality rates across the board and are conceived as being disposable.

The value of a male lies in his ability to gain assets and protect property acquired, a concept which invariably places the value of the life as being less than that of anything deemed to be property. This is inclusive of cultures where women and children themselves are quantified as property, as noted by the actual jargon used by cultures to define their social practices.

Males in cultures practicing infanticide are not kept alive because they are male but for the expectations placed upon them. They would similarly face ostracism or annihilation if their capabilities were handicapped in their function (deformation, homosexuality, retardation,etc.) Furthermore, there have been examples wherein males are either exiled or killed due to various cultural practices, rendering the idea that 'only' female babies are killed as nonsense.

I'm pretty certain that that still renders them more valuable (in the eyes of those backwards cultures). Male children are assumed to be strong while the women are considered weak. What you said in your second full paragraph, particularly this part:

The value of a male lies in his ability to gain assets and protect property acquired, a concept which invariably places the value of the life as being less than that of anything deemed to be property.

Is incorrect as well due to the fact that being valued for ability does not make the child less than property.

 

[Atrus]

I'm pretty certain that that still renders them more valuable (in the eyes of those backwards cultures). Male children are assumed to be strong while the women are considered weak. What you said in your second full paragraph, particularly this part:

The value of a male lies in his ability to gain assets and protect property acquired, a concept which invariably places the value of the life as being less than that of anything deemed to be property.

Is incorrect as well due to the fact that being valued for ability does not make the child less than property.

A child was/is property until it becomes a provider, whereupon he becomes useful insofar as that capability of manhood. A male that is incapable of providing for the protection or obtaining of such resources carries no value for inherently being male.

Giving your life up for anything inherently places your personal worth as less than that you're giving your life up for, quite literally. You choose to place less value on ongoing existence for the sake of that other thing.

Consider casualty incident reports that exceptionalize female and child casualties, prioritizing women or children in emergencies, or single sex resolutions like military drafts. The death of men is not really a particular cause of concern for the most part, and has never really been an issue for society; we see this when gender specific issues regarding male mortality rates are not addressed.

 

[Femmeworth]

Interesting... many of the guys I know do it for the women. But something else I've heard from women is that they "don't dress for men, they dress for other women." And the way that a lot of younger girls treat each other seems to reflect that - they try to be attractive for other women. So while it is excessive, it does appear to be something that women aspire to.

I could be totally wrong, that's just my conjecture. I was basing that off of how it seems that characters that are fantasy for men are much less likely to be attractive to women than the reverse.

A child was/is property until it becomes a provider, whereupon he becomes useful insofar as that capability of manhood. A male that is incapable of providing for the protection or obtaining of such resources carries no value for inherently being male.

Giving your life up for anything inherently places your personal worth as less than that you're giving your life up for, quite literally. You choose to place less value on ongoing existence for the sake of that other thing.

Consider casualty incident reports that exceptionalize female and child casualties, prioritizing women or children in emergencies, or single sex resolutions like military drafts. The death of men is not really a particular cause of concern for the most part, and has never really been an issue for society; we see this when gender specific issues regarding male mortality rates are not addressed.

Hmmm, that is an interesting way to look at it. That's the kind of logic that activists for men's rights seem to use. I guess it comes down to whether or not you consider being disposable to be worse than being treated like property. I see the fate of a slave to be much worse than the fate of a soldier.

 

[B-Genius]

And this can go on and on. There is no real way to fix it. If you want to critize this way, there is nothing to stop it.
...
This is one of the only stories, where it totally makes sense.
...
So to make it perfectly feminist-friendly, you would really have to change the whole story altogether. Even change the ending.

I really like your post. I think even more so than changing the story, you would need to get to the very root of the problem and change the developer/people/culture behind it all.

It all becomes so deep-seated that it's really hard to sympathise with the arguments past a certain point. Eventually it's a commentary on the Japanese mindset, modern society, the human condition, and the way our species identifies itself overall. All of that dissatisfaction and contempt focused on one "interactive story" (of thousands) just seems like such a massive and - quite frankly - ridiculous reduction.

Not wishing to offend anyone here; many feminist arguments for other games and media can be well-founded, but it's when people start to

hammer a politically charged agenda into obtuse situations

that it becomes easy to lose patience.

 

[Vermillion]

I could be totally wrong, that's just my conjecture. I was basing that off of how it seems that characters that are fantasy for men are much less likely to be attractive to women than the reverse.

Hmmm, that is an interesting way to look at it. That's the kind of logic that activists for men's rights seem to use.

That's certainly true. There are much less attractive male characters along the lines of say, Gambit and Nathan Drake as opposed to... oh, every other female character ever. And so I agree that perhaps it happens too often.

In between these posts, I've come up with new reasoning, though. I think that the insinuation that it's a male power fantasy is incorrect, particularly because in a way, the female characters are a female fantasy. Rather, it is the lack of equivalent characters.

See, female characters are what women want to be and what guys want. The male characters are what guys want to be and... well, that's where that ends. They rarely appeal to both. In fact, the comic shows an example of the exact opposite, which is perfect for illustration. That Batman is what women want (well, only that particular woman, actually) and doesn't appeal to guys at all.

That's my analysis, anyways.

 

[Femmeworth]

That's certainly true. There are much less attractive male characters along the lines of say, Gambit and Nathan Drake as opposed to... oh, every other female character ever. And so I agree that perhaps it happens too often.

In between these posts, I've come up with new reasoning, though. I think that the insinuation that it's a male power fantasy is incorrect, particularly because in a way, the female characters are a female fantasy. Rather, it is the lack of equivalent characters.

See, female characters are what women want to be and what guys want. The male characters are what guys want to be and... well, that's where that ends. They rarely appeal to both. In fact, the comic shows an example of the exact opposite, which is perfect for illustration. That Batman is what women want (well, only that particular woman, actually) and doesn't appeal to guys at all.

That's my analysis, anyways.

I'm not quite sure what you are saying there. It's not really a power fantasy if it doesn't have sex appeal?

 

[Vermillion]

I'm not quite sure what you are saying there. It's not really a power fantasy if it doesn't have sex appeal?

Oh, sorry - I didn't mean that it wasn't a male power fantasy - I was saying that that wasn't the reason that you can't particularly compare the two.

 

[rCIZZLE]

Has anybody given an example of the reverse of the "male power fantasy" and attractive female characters? Best if they appear together. Doesn't have to be from games.

 

[Vermillion]

Has anybody given an example of the reverse of the "male power fantasy" and attractive female characters? Best if they appear together. Doesn't have to be from games.

Elaborate?

 

[UrbanRats]

I like ICO, and SotC. A lot. I'm not interested in tearing either down. I just don't want those power dynamics to be the only ones dominating the scene. I have a bigger issue with the dev's ideas behind them than the results.

However, both games are absolutely fair game for discussion. They're pretty much guilty of exactly the stereotypes they're accused of, and acknowledgement of this is a good thing. Doesn't mean either game has to be written off or hated by default. The only thing I ask is they be learned from.

Oh Jesus thank you.
All these gender swaps theories in Ico made my head hurt.

Ico (and SotC) are fine as they are, the problem is the context those games are put in, plus the idiotic reasonings Ueda had about gender roles.

 

[rCIZZLE]

Elaborate?

A way the genders are portrayed that if it was the standard, women would be the majority while men would stay away.

 

[charlequin]

This one. <emo stuff snipped>

Putting aside the weird, offputting self-pity vibe for a moment here, we were actually talking specifically about infanticide here and nothing you're saying really counteracts the idea that it'd be perfectly reasonable to have the villagers in ICO abandoning horned girls instead.

 

[RedSwirl]

Elaborate?

Attractive male characters and female power fantasies.

 

[maomaoIYP]

Has anybody given an example of the reverse of the "male power fantasy" and attractive female characters? Best if they appear together. Doesn't have to be from games.

Do you mean like a reverse harem manga? Where there's one girl swamped by pretty boys of every imaginable kind?

edit: something like this? (Hint: there's only one female in the image)

Himiko's Reverse Spam Harem~
Synopsis: One day Himiko went to school, but she didn't realize that it wasn't like normal schools. No! it was different.

Join the adventure of Himiko as she tries to find her way with the help of her friends, some of who have sexual problems and try to rape her which is when she finds out she has secret magical powers. When Himi-Chan is attacked her vagina eats them!! WHAT WILL HAPPEN!! how will she control this power and use it for the good of mankind? or will she chose to eat everything?

FIND OUT ONLY IN HIMI CHAN'S HAREM SCHOOL OF MAGIC and WITCH CRAFT!!!

 

[rCIZZLE]

Do you mean like a reverse harem manga? Where there's one girl swamped by pretty boys of every imaginable kind?

edit: something like this? (Hint: there's only one female in the image)
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn53/asaka_21/392369.jpg[img]
Himiko's Reverse Spam Harem~
Synopsis: One day Himiko went to school, but she didn't realize that it wasn't like normal schools. No! it was different.

Join the adventure of Himiko as she tries to find her way with the help of her friends, some of who have sexual problems and try to rape her which is when she finds out she has secret magical powers. When Himi-Chan is attacked her vagina eats them!! WHAT WILL HAPPEN!! how will she control this power and use it for the good of mankind? or will she chose to eat everything?

FIND OUT ONLY IN HIMI CHAN'S HAREM SCHOOL OF MAGIC and WITCH CRAFT!!![/QUOTE]

I guess it's a start. Would prefer the protagonist woman be something a little more common* like a master criminal, great adventurer, war hero, or something like that. Preferably she wouldn't be young and attractive. Games or comics would be best since all of the criticisms in this thread are shown abundantly in both.

Just for reference, my current way of thinking is the ideal for men isn't that much different than the ideal for women and certainly not to the extent that would push women away gaming completely. That this being a mostly nerdy male hobby has a lot more to do with women staying away. Kind of like how it is with mtg, chess, D&D, and other similar forms of entertainment that are male dominated yet don't have bulging male protagonists and young, attractive women everywhere.

*I don't read manga so I don't know if harem is a common power fantasy.

 

[maomaoIYP]

I guess it's a start. Would prefer the protagonist woman be something a little more common* like a master criminal, great adventurer, war hero, or something like that. Preferably she wouldn't be young and attractive. Games or comics would be best since all of the criticisms in this thread are shown abundantly in both.

*I don't read manga so I don't know if harem is a common power fantasy.

The attractive bit is almost a given, even if it was done by a female author catering to a female audience. This is in line with societal influences - women (or female characters) who are desirable to women as role models tend to be considerably attractive (or at least cosmetically enhanced to be); no one wants to identify with something that they find unattractive.

And yes harem fantasies are probably one of the most common power fantasies among manga catered to men, and occasionally women.

 

[Vermillion]

A way the genders are portrayed that if it was the standard, women would be the majority while men would stay away.

Attractive male characters and female power fantasies.

Think Twilight. Though that's not much of a power fantasy... I can't think of any way that women would be portrayed that puts men off and appeals to women.

 

[UrbanRats]

Think Twilight. Though that's not much of a power fantasy... I can't think of any way that women would be portrayed that puts men off and appeals to women.

Skylar, apparently.

 

[Sblargh]

Think Twilight. Though that's not much of a power fantasy... I can't think of any way that women would be portrayed that puts men off and appeals to women.

The appeal of twilight isn't an apathic protagonist who is loved by everything that walks despiste being a lamp-post and not even the prettiest lamp-post around?

Twilight and 50 shades of gray are "porn for women" because, just like porn, the protagonist does nothing and gets everything she wants anyway.

...so you are right? I'm lost here.

 

[zoukka]

Kind of like how it is with mtg, chess, D&D, and other similar forms of entertainment that are male dominated yet don't have bulging male protagonists and young, attractive women everywhere.

You are wrong about MTG and D&D Illustrations.

 

[rCIZZLE]

The attractive bit is almost a given, even if it was done by a female author catering to a female audience. This is in line with societal influences - women (or female characters) who are desirable to women as role models tend to be considerably attractive (or at least cosmetically enhanced to be); no one wants to identify with something that they find unattractive.

And yes harem fantasies are probably one of the most common power fantasies among manga catered to men, and occasionally women.

Seems that a big criticism of current games is the fact that most of the women are young and beautiful.

You are wrong about MTG and D&D Illustrations.

Male power fantasies and sexualized women are so infrequent in mtg that it's not even worth mentioning. There is seriously no argument that can be made about the illustrations of the cards turning women away. The illustrations don't decide if the card is used.

Can't really speak for the illustrations for D&D as my experience is very limited but it gets bonus points for having a lot more freedom with how people want their character to be portrayed.

 

[Mandoric]

The attractive bit is almost a given, even if it was done by a female author catering to a female audience. This is in line with societal influences - women (or female characters) who are desirable to women as role models tend to be considerably attractive (or at least cosmetically enhanced to be); no one wants to identify with something that they find unattractive.

And yes harem fantasies are probably one of the most common power fantasies among manga catered to men, and occasionally women.

There's an interesting line to be drawn between harem as "gotta catch 'em all" fantasy and harem as "choose your own fetish" fantasy.

Honestly, most pop culture seems heavily tilted toward option B), both from a business perspective (pump out that merch and get people to buy their favorite) and a consumer perspective (witness arguing about waifu/hasubando choices.) Anything above a preset duo with their own chemistry seems to be porn-only territory.

 

[SmokyDave]

Male power fantasies and sexualized women are so infrequent in mtg that it's not even worth mentioning. There is seriously no argument that can be made about the illustrations of the cards turning women away. The illustrations don't decide if the card is used.

Can't really speak for the illustrations for D&D as my experience is very limited but it gets bonus points for having a lot more freedom with how people want their character to be portrayed.

I typed 'magic the gathering female card' into GIS just to see how the chicks were represented (I've never played MTG). The first result was a chick in a black leather catsuit, the second result was a chick with a large 'cleavage window'.

You're probably right about the depictions overall but that did give me a good giggle.

 

[Kong Fisso]

Men don't aspire to be attractive the same way that women do, a big part of it I think is earning recognition from other men. Obviously we are talking in very broad strokes here.

lol, according to my gf, when dressing up girls primarily seek recognition from other girls, not men. So I guess you proved that we are more alike, than you realized.

This thread is a total and complete clusterfuck now. We're discussing the gender politics of fucking ICO and Sailor Moon of all things. It's hysterical.

Edit: Oh, yeah, and Magic the Gathering.

A prominent female creature, the Serra Angel:

is a strong warrior of the light, who contrary to most other creatures, is always able to defend herself, even after attacking. Never weak or exposed, one could say she is the definition of strength.

Her male equivalent, the Sengir Vampire - a parasitic, hateful beast, is weak by himself, and needs to feed off other creatures to surpass the Serra Angel in strength:

 

[rCIZZLE]

I typed 'magic the gathering female card' into GIS just to see how the chicks were represented (I've never played MTG). The first result was a chick in a black leather catsuit, the second result was a chick with a large 'cleavage window'.

You're probably right about the depictions overall but that did give me a good giggle.

In google images Jaya, the black leather girl and a card that doesn't see play, was #1 followed by:

Which are cards that see/saw play or are popular among casuals. Really, I'm not lying to make a point... card illustration has no effect on how popular it is. There's no way a small number out of thousands of cards would turn women away from playing.

edit: ^very well said. In case someone will jump on the cleavage of serra angel and ignore the rest, here's the updated art that's been in use for the past several years:

Note the flavor text.

 

[jimi_dini]

Errr... why? I mean, if it's not a romantic relationship between the boy and Yorda (and I mean, even if it is, but one step at a time here) what necessity is there that the two be different genders? Why can't you have a young energetic boy who leads an older, timid boy who can't communicate effectively around?

I thought your complain was also about the typical weak girl (Yorda). So you would have to change that as well, wouldn't you? Or do you just require a strong girl as well, if someone writes a story about a mentally disabled girl? Why? And why doesn't the queen count as strong female? Because she is not the protagonist? Or do you want to change all the characters to female? Wouldn't that be sexist? Why remove all males from the game?

I mean marketing wise it was already a total disaster. "Play as a little boy". Great. That will get us many sales. Remove all males from the game, although males are the typical video game players? Sounds perfect to me.

Like I already said - if you change Ico + Yorda to both male, the story wouldn't work - you would have to change the queen as well. And then the story gets really creepy (which is also caused by the typical men == automatically a peter file mindset). Which would then be a male-only game, something that feminists also don't like.

And - so you automatically assume that just because it's a boy and a girl, there has to be some "romance" going on? Ico is not able to freely escape. He is dependant on Yorda as well. Without her, he would have been stuck right in the first area. And why shouldn't he help her? Because men aren't allowed to help females out unless they are interested in them?

On what planet? Only female children are regularly subject to infanticide and male children are widely seen as more valuable in most societies.

We are not in Africa here. Nor in India. Nor in China.

the typical "children + women first", when a ship is sinking.

Or what about news reports about a shooting or a horrible accident. Ever listened to what they say? "22 dead, including children and females"

I mean I can understand children. Fine. But females? Give me a break. This would imply that it's totally fine, that men died. Oh 100 dead men, who cares. But if a female dies, it's worth mentioning separately. Why don't they say "children, female and men died"? Or just "humans died".

I got exactly the same issue with news reports that split up nationalities. "death toll at 103, including 5 Americans/Germans/Frenchmen". It's the same kind of logic. Americans/Germans/Frenchmen are worth more than the rest of the dead humans. I always imagine people going "oh my god, 5 dead humans of my own nationality, how could they". Why does it matter?

And of course female are more valuable biologically speaking. The Ico village would be pretty stupid to lock away girls the same way they did with boys. The game clearly shows that they

Spoiler

locked away many, many boys

- which would actually be a death sign for the village, if they locked away

Spoiler

that many girls

. Sure, if there are enough girls around like in a country, one couldn't see it as important anymore. But we are talking about a village here. If you lock away

Spoiler

that many girls

the village population will be affected.

Well, I mean, I bitch about ICO so much in part because it's kind of dull, slow and repetitive while Shadow of the Colossus (which has its own thematic problems in the story) is at least exciting and unique. Being fun does go a long way.

I find this kinda funny. SotC is completely empty, besides the bosses, a few lizards, some fruits and some shrines. It's horse riding for ages, then fighting a boss, then horse riding again and again and again. And calling Ico being not unique, oh well. I respect your opinion, but I seriously don't understand it.

 

[Kong Fisso]

edit: ^very well said. In case someone will jump on the cleavage of serra angel and ignore the rest, here's the updated art that's been in use for the past several years:


Note the flavor text.

Also, the flavor text for the updated Sengir Vampire is something along the lines of:
Empires come and go, Evil lasts forever

 

[Metal Gear?!]

http://borderhouseblog.com/?p=9037

Feminism 101: Offensive Language and Dismissal of Responsibility


Welcome to another day in which a games journalist dismisses the criticism of many gamers and misses the point completely. This article at IGN by Colin Moriarty shows exactly why gaming culture is what it is, and why it’s so difficult to make any real change.

Backstory: Borderlands 2 Lead Designer Hemingway refers to the game’s “easy mode” as the Girlfriend mode, which we covered. Many game critics erupted in upset over yet another example where women are stereotyped into byproducts of the gaming industry without the skill required to play games as they’re designed. Now, this IGN article has decided to counter the criticism and put us in our place. Us being anyone with a single fuck to give about sensitive language and inclusivity in games, that is.

Let me lay just a little bit of Feminism 101 on you (which also equates to “being a decent person 101&#8243:

1. If you are not offended, it doesn’t mean what was said wasn’t offensive.

Here’s the thing, we all have different perspectives in life. I’m personally an able-bodied woman, and I recognize that privilege. I am not going to be personally offended by ableist terms, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t know it’s wrong to say them. I still have empathy for the people whom I am potentially offending. I check my privilege when I speak, and make sure that I’m not being dismissive of concerns that are very real and very personal for people.

There is just about nothing in the world that is universally offensive to every person. That’s not how offense works. You don’t get a free pass to say whatever you want because you’re not personally affected by it.

Moriarty states:

Remember, Mr. Hemingway didn’t actually say anything offensive. People wanting to be offended are simply looking for anything to jump on, consequences for anyone and anything be damned.

Because Moriarty isn’t offended, that makes the phrase perfectly okay to say. Never mind the feelings of other people. And, it’s no surprise whatsoever that Moriarty is male, speaking up for the women (the “girlfriends”) who are stating that they’re personally offended by what Hemingway said. Don’t worry, ladies, this guy’s got it under control. We should all stop getting so hysterical over this tiny, minor injustice in the world that doesn’t mean a thing. Except that it does.

I think it’s even worse to understand that people are offended yet belittle and shit upon their feelings than it is to say the offensive slur in the first place.


2. You don’t have to be racist to say racist things. You don’t have to be sexist to say sexist phrases.

This is one of the most common dismissals that occurs. Sometimes it manifests as “I have a gay friend” and other times it’s “but, I’m not racist. I love black people!”

Someone who is a wonderful person can say offensive things, and they can offend people. Someone who isn’t racist can not only say incredibly racist things (perhaps without realizing it) but can also assist on a day-by-day basis with perpetuating the larger culture of racism that exists today. A person who has no personal issues with LGBT individuals can say things that other, disrespect, and shit upon gay people. You don’t have to be a terrible person to be uneducated about offensive language and therefore use it without realizing who you are hurting in the process. But when you DO end up hurting someone, that’s your opportunity to realize what you have done and own up to the mistake. The fact that so many are quick to blame the person for being offended instead of checking their own privilege is a major cultural problem that perpetuates all of the issues that exist with intersectionality.

3. Saying that you didn’t intend to offend someone does not erase the fact that you did.

Like above, if you claim to be a great person who isn’t sexist yet you use a sexist phrase, you better be prepared to apologize and learn from your mistake when you’re called on it. If you say “I’m not sexist and I didn’t mean that to be a sexist phrase” does not correct your mistake. It only hurts your argument if you continue to argue that what you said wasn’t meant to hurt people. The fact is, it did. Own up.

There are words, and there is intent behind them. In many cases, the intent doesn’t matter. You used the offensive phrase, and the damage was done. Educate yourself and don’t use offensive phrases, and you’ll find yourself being a much more decent human being.

—

Finally, I just want to comment on the last bit here:

So expect to hear a lot less from developers in the future because of episodes like this, and a lot more canned responses from PR as a result.

Excuse me while I pick my jaw up from the floor. If developers can’t speak about their games without offending people, I’d *rather* hear from PR. I know that as a game journalist in the competitive field of scooping other media for the story you are most interested in hearing something sensational that will get you web hits. But I’d rather just hear about the games and the features in a way that doesn’t make me feel like an outsider. Never in my life did I think I’d hear the argument “if we call someone out for being offensive, we’re going to hear a lot less from them.” Shame on us for being critical of what a representative of a company has to say. Shame on us for being so sensitive and trying to pick fights.

Thank goodness this IGN piece says “Opinion” right in the title, because I’m going to set it aside and call it one person’s very privileged and dismissing viewpoint.

 

[zoukka]

Yeah MTG does have a lot of tasteful illustrations, but I was just making a point that the fanservice exists in that game too. Also the old Serra Angel was known as "tits, the card" among me and my friends when we were little kids.

 

[UrbanRats]

http://borderhouseblog.com/?p=9037

I think the owning up part is true but to a degree.
Given the fact that different people with different sensibilities, can be offended by different things (to different degrees) to a ridiculous extent, is not anyone's job to establish what's ok and what's not ok to say.
However, while there is no defined line in the sand and it's a matter of personal views, there are certain venues that should be more inclusive and friendly by default as well as some behaviours that are generally never acceptable.
But in general, if someone finds something you say offensive and you think it's not, it's ok, imo, if you two simply don't enter in contact with each other more than ncessary and leave it at that.

If you take a look at the "Is GAF too strict" thread, you can see there's people offended by the term "bitch" and there's people offended by stuff like "believing in God is irrational", you'll never make everyone go along with eachother all the time, it is though possible to mantain a more neutral ground, when necessary for social stability.
Also regarding the context of the article, i agree that what the dev said wasn't exactly sensible.

 

[Oersted]

At the risk of getting off on a rant, I get really fucking sick of seeing this attempt to re-frame the debate in Every. Single. Gender. Thread. No one believes women are the only ones affected by negative stereotypes. No one one believes we should focus our attention on solving this problem to the exclusion of all other problems. No one believes unwanted stereotypes are the sole property of women. Not even feminists. Go ahead and ask one about male body issues or male objectification or racial stereotypes, there's a damn good chance they'll say "Yeah, that's also a problem, and we should work to solve that as well."

Yes, a lot of women tend to spend a fair amount of words and time, maybe even a majority of their time, on the way it affects their particular gender. You know why? Because it's their fucking gender. There's no obligation whatosever on their part to be equal-opportunity about every single social issue and injustice in the world, especially not when the deck is stacked so high against them in the first place. You have to start somewhere, and they've chosen that starting place. There's nothing hypocritical or inconsistent about that, it's just recognizing that time and energy is finite and you have to pick your battles.

For some reason we expect self-proclaimed feminists to take up the cross not only of their own gender, but of every group in the world with a grievance, lest they be accused of being hypocrites. They don't spend time dwelling on the vast injustice of beefcake male characters? Obviously it's because they're hypocrites, no need to pay attention to them. They write an essay about rape but don't mention false rape accusations? Obviously their priorities are in the wrong place and can be dismissed without comment.

But for some reason, anytime someone tries to bring up a uniquely female issue, the cries of "But what about men's rights/male objectification/prison rape/false rape accusations/etc" come up. It is literally impossible to have a discussion about a female-specific issue without someone coming along and trying to reframe it to being part of the larger discourse of humanity generally being pretty shitty and intolerant to itself, as if we didn't already know that really damn well.

If you really care so much about men being depicted unrealistically and as dumb buffoons in the media, SPEAK UP YOUR DAMN SELF. Nobody's stopping you! Write blog posts, make videos, get active! I'm not being glib about this, I'm sincerely saying, if that's what you think is worth fighting for, you should honestly do it. And contrary to what you may assume, you may find that the feminist community are your allies in your cause. They don't like to reinforce negative stereotypes of anyone (except maybe social conservatives). Many if not most of them are in fact keenly aware of the ways gender and racial and class and educational issues interact and know that they can't be separated that easily.

But I almost never see posters doing that. I've never seen a "Why are male video game characters so objectified?" thread or a "Why does this industry have such a problem with minorities?" thread. Instead certain posters think the most appropriate place to begin those discussions is in the threads that try to discuss the equivalent female phenomenon.

I can't help but wonder how much they really care about their own interests and male representations given that.

This pretty much. And dont get why many here try to deny it. There is a reason why doa has the breast bouncing. There is a reason why Need for Speed features models and not actresses. There is a reason why there is no big heroine like Drake, Sam Fisher, Snake and so on. The only ones worth mentioning are Samus and Lara Croft. The last one sold cause of her boobs, the other one got a zero suit and was in credits unlockable in a bikini. Once again, for a reason.

 

[NovemberMike]

Has anybody given an example of the reverse of the "male power fantasy" and attractive female characters? Best if they appear together. Doesn't have to be from games.

The best modern example would be Twilight. The female character is bland because she's designed to be a self-insert, everybody loves her through no effort of her own and the male characters are played by young men with pretty, boyish faces. You don't see Jason Statham or Dolph Lundgren in them.

 

[Vermillion]

Skylar, apparently.

Well, I don't think women like her much.

The appeal of twilight isn't an apathic protagonist who is loved by everything that walks despiste being a lamp-post and not even the prettiest lamp-post around?

Twilight and 50 shades of gray are "porn for women" because, just like porn, the protagonist does nothing and gets everything she wants anyway.

...so you are right? I'm lost here.

It saddens me that those are popular.

 

[DragonGirl]

the typical "children + women first", when a ship is sinking.

Gotta point out the whole "women and children first" thing for boats is a myth popularized in 1912 to combat women's suffrage. Basically a "look, women don't need equal rights because men will naturally protect them".

A study of shipwrecks from the past shows that men are the number one survivors with women and children being most likely to die. One of the only ship wrecks where women and children (the ones in first class at least, anyone in steerage was screwed) actually were put into life boats first was the Titanic, and only because the crew held back the men at gun point. That wasn't common policy though, and was just the order of the captain. Titanic was altogether an aberration.

But yeah, "women and children first" is BS and terrible policy anyway.

 

[Femmeworth]

Gotta point out the whole "women and children first" thing for boats is a myth popularized in 1912 to combat women's suffrage. Basically a "look, women don't need equal rights because men will naturally protect them".

A study of shipwrecks from the past shows that men are the number one survivors with women and children being most likely to die. One of the only ship wrecks where women and children (the ones in first class at least, anyone in steerage was screwed) actually were put into life boats first was the Titanic, and only because the crew held back the men at gun point. That wasn't common policy though, and was just the order of the captain. Titanic was altogether an aberration.

But yeah, "women and children first" is BS and terrible policy anyway.

I didn't know that, fascinating.

lol, according to my gf, when dressing up girls primarily seek recognition from other girls, not men. So I guess you proved that we are more alike, than you realized.

This thread is a total and complete clusterfuck now. We're discussing the gender politics of fucking ICO and Sailor Moon of all things. It's hysterical.

ICO and Sailor Moon are both important, for different reasons, and worth discussing/analyzing.

 

[B-Genius]

This pretty much. And dont get why many here try to deny it. There is a reason why doa has the breast bouncing. There is a reason why Need for Speed features models and not actresses. There is a reason why there is no big heroine like Drake, Sam Fisher, Snake and so on. The only ones worth mentioning are Samus and Lara Croft. The last one sold cause of her boobs, the other one got a zero suit and was in credits unlockable in a bikini. Once again, for a reason.

Are people really denying these problems exist? Or are they simply trying to defend the games they enjoy and their taste in "entertainment"? I think if you ask a lot of people in here, they would not respond with "but men have problems, too!"

No one thinks it's right that Lara originally sold for her boobs (if that's even factually accurate) or that Samus was put in a bikini. If you ask most sensible, well-versed gamers, they will respond to that sort of thing with a frown, and agree that they'd rather not see that sort of exposure within their hobby. There are several threads floating around GAF - "games you're embarrassed to play", "games you wouldn't want your family to see", etc. On the other hand, the whole "dudebro" thing has become a staple reaction to the modern shooter - there are so many of these games, and so much poor representation of people, places and situations that it's become a bad joke.

Mature, clued-in people will eventually get sick and tired of both ridiculous boob physics and the endless surge of stagnant shooters (if there are no significant gameplay hooks/changes to reinforce such stereotypical methods). So are we trying to penetrate the clueless, ignorant (for want of nicer words) masses here? How do you sit them down and tell them what's what, and why they shouldn't be supporting such tripe? Furthermore, how do you convince the people behind these ideas that they'll be better human beings if they stop - or at least, retrospectively, understand where they went wrong?

Lastly, in regard to the bolded, are you implying that the industry is solely geared towards males and their fantasies? I'm not denying this, but again, I think the majority of well-rounded, curious gamers would be more than happy to see a rise in respectable, well-represented female protagonists. Just as we'd like to see a halt to the endless cycle of sequels and macho-fetishism. We just want to see fresh ideas along with consistently good gameplay.

 

[kevm3]

This pretty much. And dont get why many here try to deny it. There is a reason why doa has the breast bouncing. There is a reason why Need for Speed features models and not actresses. There is a reason why there is no big heroine like Drake, Sam Fisher, Snake and so on. The only ones worth mentioning are Samus and Lara Croft. The last one sold cause of her boobs, the other one got a zero suit and was in credits unlockable in a bikini. Once again, for a reason.

Probably because videogaming is a male dominated industry, not only with the developers, but also the purchasers of videogames? It's not hard to remember a time when many females considered men that played videogames as immature boys who needed to 'grow up.'

Really, it's little different than the reason why romance novels feature muscular, shirtless guys on the cover and are filled with rich guys who thrill all the ladies in the stories. It's called catering to the audience. Maybe we need to cry sexism about how men are portrayed in romance novels and label those writers as man haters.

 

[Oersted]

Probably because videogaming is a male dominated industry, not only with the developers, but also the purchasers of videogames? It's not hard to remember a time when many females considered men that played videogames as immature boys who needed to 'grow up.'

Really, it's little different than the reason why romance novels feature muscular, shirtless guys on the cover and are filled with rich guys who thrill all the ladies in the stories. It's called catering to the audience. Maybe we need to cry sexism about how men are portrayed in romance novels and label those writers as man haters.

You brought up a relativization and reason for this situation? Does this really work as a excuse for you?And if male dominated industry cant see women as humans /heroes than yes, it really needs to grow the f**k up.

 

[Metal Gear?!]

Probably because videogaming is a male dominated industry, not only with the developers, but also the purchasers of videogames? It's not hard to remember a time when many females considered men that played videogames as immature boys who needed to 'grow up.'

Really, it's little different than the reason why romance novels feature muscular, shirtless guys on the cover and are filled with rich guys who thrill all the ladies in the stories. It's called catering to the audience. Maybe we need to cry sexism about how men are portrayed in romance novels and label those writers as man haters.

That's a good point. Now imagine if the romance novel industry was not only the majority of the book publishing industry, but the largest, most visible part. Men (and women) would be complaining about the exact things you list and you know what? They would be right.

Imagine the cultural impoverishment that would result from the romance novel industry controlling basically all publishing and deciding what books could get funded and reacting poorly to any criticism or anyone's attempt to join their exclusive clubhouse.

 

[Galactic Fork]

Like I already said - if you change Ico + Yorda to both male, the story wouldn't work - you would have to change the queen as well. And then the story gets really creepy (which is also caused by the typical men == automatically a peter file mindset). Which would then be a male-only game, something that feminists also don't like.

This isn't really relevant to anything as you are mistaking cause and effect. The story came after the boy leading the girl mechanic was conceptualized. The story was the effect. So if the designers had come up with ICO having two boys, or two girls, or a boy and a goat, the story would have been different after. Just like how SOTC was originally supposed to have whole groups killing the colossi instead of just one dude and a magic sword. By your logic, that wouldn't work because you'd have to completely change the story. Are all these dudes in love with the dead girl? Will they all split the colossi's energy? How will that one horse carry all those guys? It doesn't matter. Cause and effect.

 

[B-Genius]

It doesn't matter. Cause and effect.

Okay, you've made your point; most games including this one are based on an underlying mechanic which then affects the story. That mechanic in ICO happens to be a person leading another person through a castle. Ico and Yorda. Let's forget their genders here for a minute...

Arguments for:
- Yorda is a (fellow) prisoner. Ico wants to get Yorda out of that horrid place.
- Yorda is weak, can barely walk, and could never escape alone.
- Yorda is hope. The only seemingly pure thing in the game; Ico doesn't want Yorda tainted.

Arguments against:
- Yorda belongs in the castle. There is a reason for being there that Ico doesn't understand.
- Yorda's "parent" (the owner of the castle?) is actually the protector. Ico is the evil invader.
- There's no such thing as a selfless act, and Ico is just doing this for companionship.

When you break it down like this, it's much more interesting than any gender/race/species argument you could throw at it. The concept behind ICO is universal: strong helping weak, or rather able helping less-able. Ico is not a "strong" person, but shows strength in this noble act of apparently helping another less-able individual.

Also, at the end of it all Yorda is barely even female. You may as well be leading a wisp or a ball of light through that castle. If you totally switched all (three of) the roles, I think it would still be an interesting game, as well as having an emotive story. Imagine a possessive King trying to hold onto his only son, while some girl outcast from "the village" tries to take him away. Sounds like something you'd see in a Ghibli film...

Maybe it wouldn't have worked back then - hell, the game didn't even sell very well as it is - but today it probably would have been regarded as some "bold new step" in the progression of game mentality and inclusion.

 

[Flame Lord]

link

lol, funny Ico's first. I saw a lot of people dreading what she would say about it.

 

[GrizzNKev]

link

lol, funny Ico's first. I saw a lot of people dreading what she would say about it.

This is exactly what I expected. Rile them up Anita, just stir that pot. I can taste the critical thinking in that tweet.

 

[koolaroo]

Thats the way to make freinds just insult a game that lots of people really love. Why the heck would ico be the first to attack? Why not mario? Peach still sits their helpless every game or why not adress issues of male graze? But really Ico?!
Note: I have not played Ico.

 

[alr1ght]

lulz, there is no more Team Ico.

 

[AuthenticM]

link

lol, funny Ico's first. I saw a lot of people dreading what she would say about it.

I'm glad she played it. Ico is an egregious offender in the "games perpetuating the weak and dependant women" stereotype.

 

[GrizzNKev]

Is this really just going to be all her being angry at video games because she applied tropes to them?

 

[Femmeworth]

Thats the way to make freinds just insult a game that lots of people really love. Why the heck would ico be the first to attack? Why not mario? Peach still sits their helpless every game or why not adress issues of male graze? But really Ico?!
Note: I have not played Ico.

The Mario series isn't touted as being art.