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Tropes versus Women in Video Games

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koolaroo said:
Thats the way to make freinds just insult a game that lots of people really love. Why the heck would ico be the first to attack? Why not mario? Peach still sits their helpless every game or why not adress issues of male graze? But really Ico?!
Note: I have not played Ico.
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The game is awesome, but the game IS very bad at that part.... so bad, but SO BAD that half of the internet thinks that Yorda is BLIND =P

She didn't mentioned peach because ... well ... EVERYONE knows peach and if she needs to reaply something to remember how bad nintendo treats peach is Super Princess Peach and her PMS powers
 
alr1ght said:
fm6Eg.png


lulz, there is no more Team Ico. :(
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Oh my gooooooooooooooooooood, straw feminism at it's most irritating.
 
It's funny to see people just a few posts above having a much deeper discussion about Ico and it's gender roles and the have Anita come along and make a complaint to the effect of "ugh, this is sexist." I hope her videos will actually explore these issues with a bit more depth.
 
You know, I really did want an intelligent female viewpoint of the social implications that certain games have, but when your core argument is THIS, you shouldn't be listened to.

The strongest argument in that 2nd grade dissertation is that because Yorda doesn't wear pants, the game is sexist.
 
GrizzNKev said:
This is exactly what I expected. Rile them up Anita, just stir that pot. I can taste the critical thinking in that tweet.
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koolaroo said:
Thats the way to make freinds just insult a game that lots of people really love. Why the heck would ico be the first to attack? Why not mario? Peach still sits their helpless every game or why not adress issues of male graze? But really Ico?!
Note: I have not played Ico.
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alr1ght said:
fm6Eg.png


lulz, there is no more Team Ico. :(
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GrizzNKev said:
Is this really just going to be all her being angry at video games because she applied tropes to them? :(
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zkylon said:
I don't mind her deconstructing the game but calling it sexist on twitter is just lame...
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Frustrated_Grunt said:
140 characters is not enough space to make claims like this. You're just looking to piss people off.
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The Wizard said:
It's funny to see people just a few posts above having a much deeper discussion about Ico and it's gender roles and the have Anita come along and make a complaint to the effect of "ugh, this is sexist." I hope her videos will actually these issues with a bit more depth.
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Um guys, before you get the pitchforks out, the tweet is a quote and a link to this post:
I Have One Question For Team ICO
The Border house said:
What the fuck century are you FROM?

In a 1UP post about Team ICO’s next project, The Last Guardian, from this week’s Tokyo Game Show, Matt Leone writes:

Early in development, the main character in The Last Guardian was female, but the team ended up going with a boy. The reason: they thought it would be more realistic that he would have enough grip strength to be able to climb around, and because they wouldn’t have to worry about camera angles with a girl who wears a skirt.​

This is the sort of logic that only makes sense in the minds of sexist, retrograde game developers, for two obvious reasons:
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@femfreq
Quite entertaining seeing all these tweets trying desperately to defend the Damsel in Distress trope as somehow not sexist. #TropesVsWomen
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I really don't like her style of just labelling a game with a trope and then deciding the game is sexist, because the trope it fits with is often sexist.
 
Zoe said:
That's not her only tweet...
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Yeah, most of us were reacting to this one: https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/240232261180588032

edit: just to clarify, I look forwards to her video, I just find it dumb to grab a a game beloved by many and call it sexist without giving proof (other than quoting an article of someone correctly calling off bullshit on some interview with Ueda), and it's bound to rub the people the wrong way. I'll give her the benefit of the doubt, but stuff like that feels like trolling/asking for attention.
 
Mesoian said:
You know, I really did want an intelligent female viewpoint of the social implications that certain games have, but when your core argument is THIS, you shouldn't be listened to.

The strongest argument in that 2nd grade dissertation is that because Yorda doesn't wear pants, the game is sexist.
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....what ?

What are you talking about ?
She made a tweet saying that she thinks that the game is sexist by being one of the worst examples of female in distress and linked an article about THE LAST GUARDIAN.
 
Zoe said:
That's not her only tweet...
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It's the tweet most of the posters I quoted were responding too. Which is remarkable because this tweet wasn't her words and had a link; there is no reason to jump on this particular tweet.

And by highlighting that second tweet it shows that there are more posts after the first tweet. She has a couple more comments on her timeline.

Jumping on one tweet as not sufficiently exhaustive analysis is ridiculous.
 
Platy said:
....what ?

What are you talking about ?
She made a tweet saying that she thinks that the game is sexist by being one of the worst examples of female in distress and linked an article about THE LAST GUARDIAN.
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Sorry, the hyperlink didn't initially go through. I linked to what she linked earlier, which is this.

http://t.co/W2vrWtHJ

Which is not only poorly written but mindboggling idiotic, and, if you're like the rest of the gaming community, irrelevant because 1.) TLG is looking like it's never going to be released and 2.) Lol Japan (not really 2)
 
Being quite asexual, I find both female and male sexual tropes annoying in games. But I do choose to ignore it, if the game has gameplay I love I'll play it regardless :P
 
Crewnh said:
what does that have to do with anything
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For this argument, nothing. I would kill to have her compare ICO to the Birth of Athena or Chronos discarding his Children in attempts to compare other sexist forms of artwork.

This whole thing gets me salty. I feel like whatever she makes of this is going to be horribly reductive and ignore major plot points of the game to prove that
 
Mesoian said:
This whole thing gets me salty.
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Indeed. Difficult to feel supportive when all she's doing is throwing out provocative tweets. Hopefully more effort will go into the videos themselves.

The thing is, most of her ideas have the potential to be really thought-provoking, detailed arguments (regardless of who's a fan of what), but she's essentially just turning it into playground name-calling.
 
Mesoian said:
For this argument, nothing. I would kill to have her compare ICO to the Birth of Athena or Chronos discarding his Children in attempts to compare other sexist forms of artwork.

This whole thing gets me salty. I feel like whatever she makes of this is going to be horribly reductive and ignore major plot points of the game to prove that
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Other sexist forms of artwork were made in times that women were barely considered human beings (yes, even in Athenas)

ICO was made after the women rights movements, women voting and all the other changes.
And with so much production context behind it that is not even FUNNY =P


TheLaughingMan said:
Being quite asexual, I find both female and male sexual tropes annoying in games. But I do choose to ignore it, if the game has gameplay I love I'll play it regardless :P
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Far from me to tell you what you are, but by your comment didn't you mean agender ?
Or are you just talking about sexual exploration of women tropes ?
It is hard to me to understand how something not related to a sexual act can make an asexual have problems ...
 
Mesoian said:
For this argument, nothing. I would kill to have her compare ICO to the Birth of Athena or Chronos discarding his Children in attempts to compare other sexist forms of artwork.

This whole thing gets me salty. I feel like whatever she makes of this is going to be horribly reductive and ignore major plot points of the game to prove that
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You could just ignore her.
I'm sure she won't be harassing you at home.
 
Trey said:
Is she going to touch on female game characters that are, in her mind's eye, acceptable?
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Yes. So far she's listed Faith (Mirror's Edge) and Jade (BG&E) as two of her favorite female characters. Jade I fully understand, but I really don't remember much about Faith and ME is probably my favorite game from this gen. She has a fantastic character design, but you rarely ever see anyone praising her as a character. That's not too surprising since ME's story is generally considered to be one of its glaring faults (along with the gunplay).
 
Crewnh said:
what does that have to do with anything
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Apparently nothing. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ICO is an important work in the video game medium that is worth examining, not that the Mario series ins't important too.
Mesoian said:
For this argument, nothing. I would kill to have her compare ICO to the Birth of Athena or Chronos discarding his Children in attempts to compare other sexist forms of artwork.
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What. Greek mythology was created in ancient times, ICO was made during modern times.

Fuck it, I'm done with this thread until the first video in the series is released.
 
UrbanRats said:
You could just ignore her.
I'm sure she won't be harassing you at home.
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Well everyone in my twitter feed is retweeting her, so...It sort of does.

But I know, I should. When I saw this movement and her first videos, I just thought, "maybe this time, this time we'll get an intelligent female prospective on all of this that doesn't hinge on 'PEOPLE WITH PENISES MADE IT SO IT'S BAD! JADE RAYMOND MADE ASSASSIN'S CREED SO IT'S THE MOST AMAZING GAME EVER!'"

I want a gaming Harriet Tubman. We keep getting Sarah Palins.
 
Mesoian said:
Well everyone in my twitter feed is retweeting her, so...It sort of does.

But I know, I should. When I saw this movement and her first videos, I just thought, "maybe this time, this time we'll get an intelligent female prospective on all of this that doesn't hinge on 'PEOPLE WITH PENISES MADE IT SO IT'S BAD! JADE RAYMOND MADE ASSASSIN'S CREED SO IT'S THE MOST AMAZING GAME EVER!'"

I want a gaming Harriet Tubman. We keep getting Sarah Palins.
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...the only thing that she barely said about gaming with proeminent female developers was that Chell was an awesome example.... and she didn't even mentioned that a woman was one of the main creators of the whole Portal/Narbacular Drop thing

Team ICO's games are awesome, but EVERY one of those 3 have problems with women
 
Femmeworth said:
Apparently nothing. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ICO is an important work in the video game medium that is worth examining, not that the Mario series ins't important too.

What. Greek mythology was created in ancient times, ICO was made during modern times.

Fuck it, I'm done with this thread until the first video in the series is released.
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Right, but they're both art, even though they have nothing to do with each other otherwise. Comparing them would be asinine; a major grasp at straws in order to make parallels with other famous works who's only link is a very loose twinge of supposed violence towards women (or women inflicting violence towards men, in this case).

To be clear, it would be BAD for her argument if she did that. But if her main argument is going to be, "you have to protect her, she can't do anything without her male counterpart, please ignore the ending that blows massive holes in all this," then it's just...a real waste of everyone's time.

Platy said:
...the only thing that she barely said about gaming with proeminent female developers was that Chell was an awesome example.... and she didn't even mentioned that a woman was one of the main creators of the whole Portal/Narbacular Drop thing

Team ICO's games are awesome, but EVERY one of those 3 have problems with women
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I know, there are other women who have tried making this argument before who use Assassin's Creed as a soap box, as if Jade Raymond made the game in her garage alone.

I don't want this to be that, again. But...it kinda feels like that's where we're headed.

Actually, I feel like we're headed straight for the Felicia Day nontroversy again.
 
Femmeworth said:
What. Greek mythology was created in ancient times, ICO was made during modern times.
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But doesn't the world of Ico seem like a very old and ancient place? These games are clearly trying to evoke a very traditional fantasy world, like those mythologies which were created in ancient times.
 
SolidSnakex said:
Yes. So far she's listed Faith (Mirror's Edge) and Jade (BG&E) as two of her favorite female characters. Jade I fully understand, but I really don't remember much about Faith and ME is probably my favorite game from this gen. She has a fantastic character design, but you rarely ever see anyone praising her as a character. That's not too surprising since ME's story is generally considered to be one of its glaring faults (along with the gunplay).
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I'm surprised at Faith's inclusion, then. I've played a few levels into that game, and I could not care any less about her as a character. I was assuming she got better as the story got on with things, but your lack of remembrance leads me to believe the story and her character don't stick.
 
Trey said:
I'm surprised at Faith's inclusion, then. I've played a few levels into that game, and I could not care any less about her as a character. I was assuming she got better as the story got on with things, but your lack of remembrance leads me to believe the story and her character don't stick.
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The entire game has pretty weak characterization. You're supposed to gleem the wants and needs of each character for a handful of poorly done comic pages, and the rest of the game is more characterizing the city than the pro/antagonists.

You know, I really kind of wish she would start with Dragon's Lair. I think that would have been a lot more poignant and could have been a really interesting curve ball.
 
Trey said:
I'm surprised at Faith's inclusion, then. I've played a few levels into that game, and I could not care any less about her as a character. I was assuming she got better as the story got on with things, but your lack of remembrance leads me to believe the story and her character don't stick.
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The only real things Faith has as a character (besides what you impart to her, Half-Life-Gordon-Freeman-Is-You-style) are moral integrity, fierce loyalty/strong familial leanings, determination and absolutely no sense of vertigo. It's a pretty basic good-guy template applied to a freerunner. I like how they add a layer of family to it that some games don't match (and others easily surpass), but it's still sparse as characters go. Then again, considering the other characters out there in the medium, this low-key portrayal may be a plus.

Her inclusion may be more about the character's design, which frankly shows off more of the character than her interactions with others. It's a damned good design.
 
Mesoian said:
Well everyone in my twitter feed is retweeting her, so...It sort of does.

But I know, I should. When I saw this movement and her first videos, I just thought, "maybe this time, this time we'll get an intelligent female prospective on all of this that doesn't hinge on 'PEOPLE WITH PENISES MADE IT SO IT'S BAD! JADE RAYMOND MADE ASSASSIN'S CREED SO IT'S THE MOST AMAZING GAME EVER!'"

I want a gaming Harriet Tubman. We keep getting Sarah Palins.
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I don't think we should "just ignore her".

When people started threatening and abusing her when she first made her claims, a number of internet communities asked for us "gamers" to make a stand and defend her, as these people were a horrible representation of our industry's following.

Obviously it's far less cool to threaten a woman with rape than it is to believe a game is sexist, but still I don't see why we should just sit back and take this kind of sensationalism.

The two posts about not letting things get "overdone" and keeping things "low-key" are important.
gurudyne, if Sarkeesian says anything half as intelligent as what you just wrote about Faith, I will be pleasantly surprised.
 
I don't want to get wrapped up in this thread, but I want to say that, once again, Anita's analysis is spot on. I am so grateful that she's working on this project.
 
Why are people getting so upset about some tweets? She's clearly currently playing Ico in the course of her research and is going to go more in depth in her analysis when she makes the videos. What's wrong with just sharing some of her thoughts on Twitter as she plays in the meantime? Is she not allowed to speak publicly about games until the videos are well and done or something?

SolidSnakex said:
Yes. So far she's listed Faith (Mirror's Edge) and Jade (BG&E) as two of her favorite female characters. Jade I fully understand, but I really don't remember much about Faith and ME is probably my favorite game from this gen. She has a fantastic character design, but you rarely ever see anyone praising her as a character. That's not too surprising since ME's story is generally considered to be one of its glaring faults (along with the gunplay).
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She's also a fan of Kat from Gravity Rush (though not her design).
 
idlethreats said:
Why are people getting so upset about some tweets? She's clearly currently playing Ico in the course of her research and is going to go more in depth in her analysis when she makes the videos. What's wrong with just sharing some of her thoughts on Twitter as she plays in the meantime? Is she not allowed to speak publicly about games until the videos are well and done or something?
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Sure, she's allowed to make incitable comments. Just like others are free to call her out on it.
 
idlethreats said:
Why are people getting so upset about some tweets? She's clearly currently playing Ico in the course of her research and is going to go more in depth in her analysis when she makes the videos. What's wrong with just sharing some of her thoughts on Twitter as she plays in the meantime? Is she not allowed to speak publicly about games until the videos are well and done or something?
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She's making judgements before she's done, much like her Bastion argument.
 
HyperCubed4 said:
She's making judgements before she's done, much like her Bastion argument.
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And ICO isn't very long, only about 4 or 6 hours. There's no need to incite people when you already know quite well from experience what kind of froth they'll be whipped into, especially a game that's revered by most.
 
Zoe said:
Sure, she's allowed to make incitable comments. Just like others are free to call her out on it.
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/shrug. I love Ico but I don't see what's so incitable about calling it sexist.

HyperCubed4 said:
She's making judgements before she's done, much like her Bastion argument.
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Pretty sure she's already played Ico before. She hastagged her tweet with #ResearchReplay

EDIT: Also, looking at her tweets about the game again, there's nothing there that suggests that she hasn't already finished this current playthrough either.
 
idlethreats said:
/shrug. I love Ico but I don't see what's so incitable about calling it sexist.
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It's incitable to call a revered game sexist without offering any further discourse other than a couple of hash tags.

If she wanted a full discussion, she would have released a video. All this is doing is gaining her more visibility.
 
So people payed money for her to stat the obvious and put a feminist twist on this that the people making this (largerly male) are promoting this gender stereotype? I play games to have fun, the last thing I think about is "OH NO! This female is weak this is horrible how could they do this" It's a video game after all.

.....sigh

How can people support this stupidity?
 
prwxv3 said:
Not sure if this is posted yet http://www.feministfrequency.com/2012/08/quick-tropes-vs-women-projec-update/

So they are going to be monthly starting this fall. Oh boy these better be well thought out and not like her shitty tweets. I they are she deserves all the shit she will be getting.
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What's with this self-entitled attitude? Polygon puts up an absurd trailer and they get mocked and made fun of, but this lady seems to get pure venom of the 'well she better prove herself!' variety. It's honestly disturbing.
 
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