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Tupac blamed race in Madonna breakup letter

Sho_Nuff82 said:
Nothing in hip hop is real, everything is a work.



And no, he's not a black leader, he's an entertainer.
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He was more than an entertainer just like I'm more than a videogamer.

I also lead others. Does that not make me a leader?

Tupac lead plenty of people while also being an entertainer.
 
KingV said:
2pac apparently has more conspiracy theories than Elvis.
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JoeNut said:
really?

Not according to this? is it fake news?
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did you even read the article..he didnt admit to anything

TuXx said:
As much as I love Pac, you can't simply just assume that the whole thing was fabricated.

No one really knows the full extent of the story and what really took place.
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Hollywood Duo said:
Sure it is. I'm sure all that domestic violence stuff with Dre' is made up too right? Just because they did horrible things doesn't take away from their artistic work.
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pswii60 said:
Charge? And convicted. Stop trivialising something so brutal and inhumane, there's a very real reason the victims (and I don't like that word) are called 'survivors'. It's disgusting that someone who commits sexual assault is hailed as some kind of hero because of his talents.
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This was a man who was suing the police for police brutality.

This was a man who shot two police officers.

Some believe that the rape case came about because of the police shooting case in Atlanta. So a little insight on that first.:

Of all Tupac's much publicized, violent confrontations in the tempestuous year 1993, none better illustrated the degree to which he had become the exemplar of the gangsta-rap mandate than his arrest for shooting two off-duty police officers in Atlanta. The officers, he would later say, had been harassing a black motorist. The charges were dropped when it emerged that the policemen had been drinking and had initiated the incident, and when the prosecution's own witness testified that the gun one of the officers threatened Tupac with had been seized in a drug bust and then stolen from an evidence locker.
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Gangsta rap had been provoking concern among law-enforcement authorities in this country since at least 1989
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you dont have to believe everything you read and plenty of innocent people have went to Jail for crimes they didnt commit, 2pac was asleep, he went to a maximum security prison for touching someones ass.


Not one single piece of evidence was provided of rape, no forceable entry, nothing.

Can we talk about the rape case at all?

Okay. Nigel and Trevor took me to Nell's. When we got there, I was immediately impressed, because it was different than any club I''d been in. It wasn''t crowded, there was lots of space, there were beautiful women there. I was meeting Ronnie Lott from the New York Jets and Derrick Coleman from the Nets. They were coming up to me, like, "Pac, we''re proud of you." I felt so tall that night, because they were people's heroes and they saying I was their hero. I felt above and beyond, like I was glowing.

Somebody introduced me to this girl. And the only thing I noticed about her: She had a big chest. But she was not attractive; she looked dumpy, like. Money came to me and said, "This girl wants to do more than meet you." I already knew what that meant: She wanted to f*ck. I just left them and went to the dance floor by myself. They were playing some Jamaican music, and I''m just grooving.

Then this girl came out and started dancing-and the shit that was weird, she didn''t even come to me face-first, she came a**-first. So I''m dancing to this reggae music; you know how sensuous that is. She's touching my dick, she's touching my balls, she opened my zipper, she put her hands on me. There's a little dark part in Nell's, and I see people over there making out already, so she starts pushing me this way. I know what time it is.

We go over in the corner. She's touching me. I lift up my shirt while I''m dancing, showing off my tattoos and everything. She starts kissing my stomach, kissing my chest, licking me and shit. She's going down, and I''m, like, Oh shit. She pulled my dick out; she started sucking my dick on the dance floor. That shit turned me on. I wasn''t thinking, like, This is going to be a rape case. I''m thinking, like, This is going to be a good night. You know what I''m saying?

Soon as she finished that-just enough to get me solid, rock-hard-we got off the dance floor. I told Nigel, "I''ve got to get out of here. I''m about to take her to the hotel. I''ll see you all later." Nigel was, like, "No, no, no. I''m going to take you back." We drive to the hotel. We go upstairs and have sex, real quick. As soon as I came, that was it. I was tired, I was drunk, I knew I had to get up early in the morning, so I was, like, "What are you going to do? You can spend the night or you can leave." She left me her number, and everything was cool. Nigel was spending the night in my room all these nights. When he found out she sucked my dick on the floor and we had sex, he and Trevor were livid! Trevor is a big freak; he was going crazy. All he kept asking me was, "D-d-did you f*ck in the a**?" He was listening to every single detail. I thought, This is just some guy shit, it's all good.

What happened on the night of the alleged rape?

We had a show to do in New Jersey at Club 88. This dude said, "I''ll be there with a limo to pick you up at midnight." We went shopping, we got dressed up, we were all ready. Nigel was saying, "Why don''t you give her a call?" So we were all sitting in the hotel, drinking. I''m waiting for the show, and Nigel's, like, "I called her. I mean, she called me, and she's on her way." But I wasn''t thinking about her no second time. We were watching TV when the phone rings, and she's downstairs. Nigel gave Man-man, my manager, some money to pay for the cab, and I was, like, "Let that b*tch pay for her own cab." She came upstairs looking all nice, dressed all provocative and shit, like she was ready for a prom date.

So we''re all sitting there talking, and she's making me uncomfortable, because instead of sitting with Nigel and them, she's sitting on the arm of my chair. And Nigel and Trevor are looking at her like a chicken, like she's, like, food. It's a real uncomfortable situation. So I''m thinking, Okay, I''m going to take her to the room and get a massage. I''m thinking about being with her that night at Nell's. So we get in the room, I''m laying on my stomach, she's massaging my back. I turn around. She starts massaging my front. This lasted for about a half an hour. In between, we would stop and kiss each other. I''m thinking she's about to give me another blow job. But before she could do that, some ni**as came in, and I froze up more than she froze up. If she would have said anything, I would have said, "Hold on, let me finish." But I can''t say nothing, because she's not saying nothing. How do I look saying, "Hold on"? That would be like I''m making her my girl.

So they came and they started touching her a**. They going, "Oooh, she's got a nice a**." Nigel isn''t touching her, but I can hear his voice leading it, like, "Put her panties down, put her pantyhose down." I just got up and walked out the room.

When I went to the other suite, Man-man told me that Talibah, my publicist at the time, had been there for a while and was waiting in the bedroom of that suite. I went to see Talibah and we talked about what she had been doing during the day, then I went and laid down on the couch and went to sleep. When I woke up, Nigel was standing over me going, "Pac, Pac," and all the lights was on in both rooms. The whole mood had changed, you know what I''m saying? I felt like I was drugged. I didn''t know how much time had passed. So when I woke up, it was, like, "You''re going to the police, you''re going to the police." Nigel walks out the room, comes back with the girl. Her clothes is on; ain''t nothing tore. She just upset, crying hysterically. "Why you let them do this to me?" She's not making sense. "I came to see you. You let them do this to me." I''m, like, "I don''t got time for this shit right here. You got to chill out with that shit. Stop yelling at me and looking at me all crazy." She said, "This not the last time you''re going to hear from me," and slammed the door. And Nigel goes, "Don''t worry about it, Pac, don''t worry. I''ll handle it. She just tripping." I asked him what happened, and he was, like, "Too many ni**as." You know, I ain''t even tripping no more, you know? ni**as start going downstairs, but nobody was coming back upstairs. I''m sitting upstairs smoking weed, like, Where the f*ck is everybody at? Then I get a call from Talibah from the lobby saying, "The police is down here."

And that's what landed you in jail. But you''re saying that you never did anything?

Never did nothing. Only thing I saw was all three of them in there and that ni**a talking about how fat her a** was. I got up, because the ni**a sounded sick. I don''t know if she's with these ni**as, or if she's mad at me for not protecting her. But I know I feel ashamed-because I wanted to be accepted and because I didn''t want no harm done to me-I didn''t say nothing.
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No evidence at all huh and later the charges were even dropped i just read a page or two back? Crazy.

That I didn't even know. Should hopefully show some folks in here not to draw any conclusions so quickly.
 
But it's old news that Tupac didn't do it and that the system was ready to bring him down.

If people knew about his song "Violence" they'd explode.
 
Tupac - whose parents were both Black Panthers - also suggested Madonna, then 36, hurt him by saying in an interview that she was "'off to rehabilitate all the rappers and basketball players' or something to that effect".
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🤔
 
MosquitoSmasher said:
Yeah and I believe it was this interview where he spoke about that too. He also gets emotional and teary eyed when talking about the problems in the hood. I've always found this a damn good interview.

https://youtu.be/rBf-vpGReWU

None of the tough guy Pac here, here's a dude talking sense. A smart guy with the right intentions.
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Man, it's impossible to reconcile his talking points. So the media and politicians are unfairly characterizing him as a gangsta rapper, and his music and lyrics aren't glorifying gang life and violence and dying senselessly over bullshit (but the Thug Life ethos has nothing to do with that? what?), and he's not a negative influence and doesn't bear any responsibility for what's happening on the ground? Okay, but his public persona is like the all-time definitive case study on successfully glorifying all of it, and he comes out of that bid releasing the most incendiary diss track in history which pulled a ton of people into his personal beef, turned friends on each other, and got folks killed. He crossed a line that no one was willing to cross before and everyone knows better than to cross again. All for image.
 
EviLore said:
Man, it's impossible to reconcile his talking points. So the media and politicians are unfairly characterizing him as a gangsta rapper, and his music and lyrics aren't glorifying gang life and violence and dying senselessly over bullshit (but the Thug Life ethos has nothing to do with that? what?), and he's not a negative influence and doesn't bear any responsibility for what's happening on the ground? Okay, but his public persona is like the all-time definitive case study on successfully glorifying all of it, and he comes out of that bid releasing the most incendiary diss track in history which pulled a ton of people into his personal beef, turned friends on each other, and got folks killed. He crossed a line that no one was willing to cross before and everyone knows better than to cross again. All for image.
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People are complex. They don't stay the same all the time. They grow (and degress) and are often caught between different worlds that are at odds with each other. He was only 25 when he died. I didn't know who I really was until I went to prison at 37. People change.

Edit: misspelling
 
hodayathink said:
To me, the problem with it is that he didn't assault her. What he did was still fucked up, and he was still an asshole for it, more or less (he basically allowed his "friends" to do it while he slept in another room), but we can be mad at him for what he actually did, instead of making it worse than it seems to try to make ourselves seem more righteous about it.
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You have no idea if that's true and should probably stop pretending you do.
 
EviLore said:
All for image.
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No, not true.

Abbreviation:

The diss came about because biggie was disloyal, was supposed to sign to pac and he didn't, pac told biggie to rap for the women they buy music, he schooled him
On where to go, be more mainstream, biggie took the advice and went elsewhere, 2pac got shot 5 times in the same building biggie and puff were in, crawled to them asking for help, they didn't help, they set him up/were apart of it

2pacs in jail

Biggie drops "who shot ya"

2pac gets out, drops hit em up

"I'm mad at biggie I'm rushing the nigga"

No east vs west, all media fabrication.

Two people had a problem.

We're not dealing with image here, it's disloyalty, betrayal and elimination
 
megatronium said:
He was more than an entertainer just like I'm more than a videogamer.

I also lead others. Does that not make me a leader?

Tupac lead plenty of people while also being an entertainer.
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Who are you? Not a joke, but really.

You want to talk about leaders in the black community who are also entertainers, look at a Zach Randolph or a Kareem Abdul Jabbar.

I'll remember 2Pac for his great turns in Poetic Justice and Juice, some great songs, and some ridiculous beef, but not as someone who notably gave anything to the community or served as a source of inspiration and knowledge.
 
damien1928 said:
No, not true.

Abbreviation:

The diss came about because biggie was disloyal, was supposed to sign to pac and he didn't, pac told biggie to rap for the women they buy music, he schooled him
On where to go, be more mainstream, biggie took the advice and went elsewhere, 2pac got shot 5 times in the same building biggie and puff were in, crawled to them asking for help, they didn't help, they set him up/were apart of it

2pacs in jail

Biggie drops "who shot ya"

2pac gets out, drops hit em up

"I'm mad at biggie I'm rushing the nigga"

No east vs west, all media fabrication.

Two people had a problem.

We're not dealing with image here, it's disloyalty, betrayal and elimination
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Nonsense, Biggie wasn't the one who pulled Tupac into this and had nothing to do with setting him up or being apart of it.
Biggie owed him nothing, he warned Pac to not get involved with all of these real criminals at his own risk, and Pac didn't listen.
That's that.
 
damien1928 said:
No, not true.

Abbreviation:

The diss came about because biggie was disloyal, was supposed to sign to pac and he didn't, pac told biggie to rap for the women they buy music, he schooled him
On where to go, be more mainstream, biggie took the advice and went elsewhere, 2pac got shot 5 times in the same building biggie and puff were in, crawled to them asking for help, they didn't help, they set him up/were apart of it

2pacs in jail

Biggie drops "who shot ya"

2pac gets out, drops hit em up

"I'm mad at biggie I'm rushing the nigga"

No east vs west, all media fabrication.

Two people had a problem.

We're not dealing with image here, it's disloyalty, betrayal and elimination
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I know the backstory just fine (and it's more complicated than that). We can spend all day talking about systemic influences, media/law enforcement/political bias, manipulation by bad actors in orbit (Suge, Puff), misunderstandings surrounding the Who Shot Ya track's timing with the assassination attempt and all the history with Biggie in general, and justifiable anger after being shot five times, feeling betrayed, and doing time, leading up to his rebranding and escalation. Didn't say what I said out of ignorance.
 
Another part of the problem was the one that got him out of Jail, Suge Knight. That was mostly when Tupac's "gangsta" behavior started to happen. The man we see on that correctional facility interview is very very different from the man that is released from it, drives off in his car and spits in the cameraman's view. He started wilding out and behave more reckless.

And how can it not change a person? Before all this he was shot several times and barely had time to recover before he was asked to appear in the court room where he was sentenced to jail for something he always said he didn't do and the signs and evidence sure is pointing to that too. Suge clearly wasn't a good influence for him and he was brought into a different kind of world and instead of walking away from it he lived it and it got him killed.

It's a damn shame because I truly believe the man had the right intentions, meant well and wanted to do good. I don't believe he was a bad person.
 
Sho_Nuff82 said:
Who are you? Not a joke, but really.

You want to talk about leaders in the black community who are also entertainers, look at a Zach Randolph or a Kareem Abdul Jabbar.

I'll remember 2Pac for his great turns in Poetic Justice and Juice, some great songs, and some ridiculous beef, but not as someone who notably gave anything to the community or served as a source of inspiration and knowledge.
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I'm a father of 6, a husband, an ex-con, a deacon, a leader at my organization, an alcoholic, a public speaker, a MBA recipient, an artist, a food bank volunteer, etc. I'm many things.

If he didn't inspire YOU or give YOU knowledge, cool. That doesn't mean he didn't lead, inspire, and give knowledge to others. In fact, there are many who would say he did.
 
EviLore said:
Man, it's impossible to reconcile his talking points. So the media and politicians are unfairly characterizing him as a gangsta rapper, and his music and lyrics aren't glorifying gang life and violence and dying senselessly over bullshit (but the Thug Life ethos has nothing to do with that? what?), and he's not a negative influence and doesn't bear any responsibility for what's happening on the ground? Okay, but his public persona is like the all-time definitive case study on successfully glorifying all of it, and he comes out of that bid releasing the most incendiary diss track in history which pulled a ton of people into his personal beef, turned friends on each other, and got folks killed. He crossed a line that no one was willing to cross before and everyone knows better than to cross again. All for image.
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Maybe it was just kids making most of the hand
they were dealt in life.

Growing up impoverished, surrounded by illiterate, angry people clashing against racism and other socio-economic barriers made them lash out through their lyrics.

Whether or not him and the others gained self awareness and saw themselves as champions of an ongoing and overlooked human calamity is valid argument, and in my opinion, deserving of the benefit of the doubt.

They weren't gonna take a hiatus like Dave Chappelle and his show because after their rise to fame suddenly realized their exposition of ghetto culture was detrimental to their brethren.

They were pioneers caught in a huge crossfire.
 
EviLore said:
Man, it's impossible to reconcile his talking points. So the media and politicians are unfairly characterizing him as a gangsta rapper, and his music and lyrics aren't glorifying gang life and violence and dying senselessly over bullshit (but the Thug Life ethos has nothing to do with that? what?), and he's not a negative influence and doesn't bear any responsibility for what's happening on the ground? Okay, but his public persona is like the all-time definitive case study on successfully glorifying all of it, and he comes out of that bid releasing the most incendiary diss track in history which pulled a ton of people into his personal beef, turned friends on each other, and got folks killed. He crossed a line that no one was willing to cross before and everyone knows better than to cross again. All for image.
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I thought it was said plainly.

He writes about what he has observed and participated in all from the heart: the good, the bad, the ugly.

THUG LIFE is his adolescence. It's significant but is also a phase or a period in his life.

The media focuses on character assassination, glorification, etc, rather than talking about the real 2pac that you learn about through his music.
 
HammerOfThor said:
You do know "forceable entry" is the only definition for rape, right? Because you point that out as though since theres no forceable entry, its not rape.
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I seem to recall an interview where 2pac got upset that someone called it rape, and corrected them with a description forever burned in my memory: unlawful touching of the buttocks. I'd put that shit on my resume.
 
Sho_Nuff82 said:
I'll remember 2Pac for his great turns in Poetic Justice and Juice, some great songs, and some ridiculous beef, but not as someone who notably gave anything to the community or served as a source of inspiration and knowledge.
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Tupac did give back to the community and he did share knowledge, he stood for what he believed in at the Indiana black expo, he did want to inspire and change.

He was a leader and a inspirational person to a lot people.

EviLore said:
I know the backstory just fine (and it's more complicated than that). .
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Which is why I kicked the abbreviated version.

EviLore said:
Didn't say what I said out of ignorance.
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Well, you did, you said "all for image".

Clearly it was much deeper then image.
 
megatronium said:
I'm a father of 6, a husband, an ex-con, a deacon, a leader at my organization, an alcoholic, a public speaker, a MBA recipient, an artist, a food bank volunteer, etc. I'm many things.

If he didn't inspire YOU or give YOU knowledge, cool. That doesn't mean he didn't lead, inspire, and give knowledge to others. In fact, there are many who would say he did.
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You have my respect. It takes a man to own up to his failures and still keep moving forward.
He inspired me also to keep pushing, keep growing, and keep learning. No matter what.
 
megatronium said:
I'm a father of 6, a husband, an ex-con, a deacon, a leader at my organization, an alcoholic, a public speaker, a MBA recipient, an artist, a food bank volunteer, etc. I'm many things.

If he didn't inspire YOU or give YOU knowledge, cool. That doesn't mean he didn't lead, inspire, and give knowledge to others. In fact, there are many who would say he did.
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I just want you to know YOU are inspiring. Seriously.
 
Have I been under a rock, or does it seem as if interracial dating has been a contentious topic lately? I've read multiple articles on it this week
 
ssolitare said:
I thought it was said plainly.

He writes about what he has observed and participated in all from the heart: the good, the bad, the ugly.

THUG LIFE is his adolescence. It's significant but is also a phase or a period in his life.

The media focuses on character assassination, glorification, etc, rather than talking about the real 2pac that you learn about through his music.
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It's worth noting since several people brought it up in this thread, but Tupac's "Thug Life" movement was originally intended as a rallying cry to get gangs in the inner city to stop fighting each other. It was legit his way of trying to broker truces by having them rally under a single banner.

wordballoons said:
Have I been under a rock, or does it seem as if interracial dating has been a contentious topic lately? I've read multiple articles on it this week
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It's not a new thing. To this day, people lose their shit all the time when celebrities interracial date .

SEE: Serena Williams, Robert Pattinson, etc.
 
CommanderBuck said:
You have my respect. It takes a man to own up to his failures and still keep moving forward.
He inspired me also to keep pushing, keep growing, and keep learning. No matter what.
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I've failed so many times - that's what makes us human. Some of us learn quickly, some of learn the hard way, some don't learn at all, and some don't even get the chance. I'm glad you didn't give up brother. Thanks for your kind words.
 
EviLore said:
Man, it's impossible to reconcile his talking points. So the media and politicians are unfairly characterizing him as a gangsta rapper, and his music and lyrics aren't glorifying gang life and violence and dying senselessly over bullshit (but the Thug Life ethos has nothing to do with that? what?), and he's not a negative influence and doesn't bear any responsibility for what's happening on the ground? Okay, but his public persona is like the all-time definitive case study on successfully glorifying all of it, and he comes out of that bid releasing the most incendiary diss track in history which pulled a ton of people into his personal beef, turned friends on each other, and got folks killed. He crossed a line that no one was willing to cross before and everyone knows better than to cross again. All for image.
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Seems like a very ignorant write up from someone that does not understand the surrounding culture or history of the black community in the U.S.

His public persona is/was his private persona, an idea that in today's world seems absolutely foreign with social media and media distortion. For Tupac it was the other way around because he did not want to be another sell out for his community. As he said in an interview before, the world has enough celebrities being worshipped and making money off the backs of everyone else. If he wanted that he could have done that but he stuck to his ethos and ideology until the final moment he took his last breath. At any time Tupac could have dropped everything and just become another Ice Cube. He understood that and that would have been taking the easy way out. It takes real guts to be a leader and leave behind the stardom most people would have given anything to achieve. He believed in his community, he believed in the future of his community and their potential but at the same time he understood that the system as a whole has to be changed if true equality and self-determination for black America is to ever come.

One thing that a lot of people today do not understand is how life is like for someone from a lower socio-economic background, specifically in the black community . Tupac Shakur came from a family known for resisting the U.S. government. His family was well known to be part of the Black Panther movement and that ideology sticks out in every single album Tupac put out.

Now for a second of your time just imagine that you're not white and that you were born in this country as a black man. Not only where you born in this country as a black man but you were born in a jail cell while your mother fought for her freedom in court against the U.S. government. Your mother not only fought against the government and won but she also spent years of her life dedicated to helping her community. White America viewed, and in many ways still does, the Black Panthers as a gang of thugs who only wanted to strike terror and death into white America. In reality what the Black Panthers really wanted to do was ideologically educate their members on self-defense and also organize mass breakfast events that would feed the poor in their communities. Imagine having done all of that for your community and then your organization is purged by your government, you and your organization that helped your community so much is forgotten, and you slowly realize that no matter how hard you attempted change you are stuck just right back were you started...just because you're black.

Let me touch on your final point regarding Hit Em Up. If you think that all of the beef started after the song was completed and finished then you are not only speaking from a position of historical ignorance but seem ignorant on how relationships work in general. All of the relationships that Tupac had with people was already well known in the "street" before he put out anything. His beef with Christopher Wallace had already been spiraling out of control for some time, and the "beef" as you call it was already clearly spelled out for everyone. Hit Em Up is not the cause of any beef, it's a response to an ongoing conflict (beef). Hit Em Up is what Tupac really thought about the whole situation, and it wasn't a persona or act.

Again, in a world where everything is expected to be viewable or everyone is expected to be online in some way, personas can be carefully planned out and constructed. For Tupac being part of the black community was his persona. His struggles, his fears, his dreams, his nightmares etc all represented the views of his community because he still was part of that. That's what a lot of people miss today (especially whites) when considering Tupac's legacy; his legacy is the legacy of his community just as Malcom X's. Malcolm X lived an extraordinary life in his own right but much of that came about because of his love for his community. He understood his community like Tupac because they both came from the gutter.

Crossing a line that cannot be crossed again is laughable. You don't know how you would respond to someone if you were in that exact same situation and you can never know how you would have. When your loved ones have (still even now) been getting killed for centuries in horrific ways by citizens of your own country that tends to have some long lasting psychological effects on your community. Those effects are not something that can be explained away or rectified by reading books in school, or even attending a Black History Museum once a year or watching Roots on History Channel. If you're in a community that has been (and continues to be) treated as second class citizens (first slaves) do you really think there is any line that cannot be crossed? When you're living in poverty everyday, when you don't have enough food to feed yourself or siblings because your parent is a drug fiend; do lines even exist anymore for people in that kind of lifestyle?

Image. So what kind of image was Tupac constructing for himself then? Everything he did was just for his own self-image so what exactly is that? When you say incorrect observations like that you do a disservice to the community Tupac Shakur served and lived for. He was real, the good the bad and the ugly, and a real problem today is that people look at Tupac without all of the historical perspective or even from a perspective of the community he served.

Sho_Nuff82 said:
Who are you? Not a joke, but really.

You want to talk about leaders in the black community who are also entertainers, look at a Zach Randolph or a Kareem Abdul Jabbar.

I'll remember 2Pac for his great turns in Poetic Justice and Juice, some great songs, and some ridiculous beef, but not as someone who notably gave anything to the community or served as a source of inspiration and knowledge.
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I have no idea how you can say that Tupac gave nothing notable to the community he served. He gave a lot of hope to and inspired a countless amount of young black (and brown, minority) males and females in this country. He called a truce between the Bloods and the Crips for a few months with the help of his Uncle (who also helped create T.H.U.G. L.I.F.E.). That alone is much more notable than anything Zach Randolph or Kareem Abdul Jabbar have ever done.
 
Lemaitre said:
Seems like a very ignorant write up from someone that does not understand the surrounding culture or history of the black community in the U.S.

His public persona is/was his private persona, an idea that in today's world seems absolutely foreign with social media and media distortion. For Tupac it was the other way around because he did not want to be another sell out for his community. As he said in an interview before, the world has enough celebrities being worshipped and making money off the backs of everyone else. If he wanted that he could have done that but he stuck to his ethos and ideology until the final moment he took his last breath. At any time Tupac could have dropped everything and just become another Ice Cube. He understood that and that would have been taking the easy way out. It takes real guts to be a leader and leave behind the stardom most people would have given anything to achieve. He believed in his community, he believed in the future of his community and their potential but at the same time he understood that the system as a whole has to be changed if true equality and self-determination for black America is to ever come.

One thing that a lot of people today do not understand is how life is like for someone from a lower socio-economic background, specifically in the black community . Tupac Shakur came from a family known for resisting the U.S. government. His family was well known to be part of the Black Panther movement and that ideology sticks out in every single album Tupac put out.

Now for a second of your time just imagine that you're not white and that you were born in this country as a black man. Not only where you born in this country as a black man but you were born in a jail cell while your mother fought for her freedom in court against the U.S. government. Your mother not only fought against the government and won but she also spent years of her life dedicated to helping her community. White America viewed, and in many ways still does, the Black Panthers as a gang of thugs who only wanted to strike terror and death into white America. In reality what the Black Panthers really wanted to do was ideologically educate their members on self-defense and also organize mass breakfast events that would feed the poor in their communities. Imagine having done all of that for your community and then your organization is purged by your government, you and your organization that helped your community so much is forgotten, and you slowly realize that no matter how hard you attempted change you are stuck just right back were you started...just because you're black.

Let me touch on your final point regarding Hit Em Up. If you think that all of the beef started after the song was completed and finished then you are not only speaking from a position of historical ignorance but seem ignorant on how relationships work in general. All of the relationships that Tupac had with people was already well known in the "street" before he put out anything. His beef with Christopher Wallace had already been spiraling out of control for some time, and the "beef" as you call it was already clearly spelled out for everyone. Hit Em Up is not the cause of any beef, it's a response to an ongoing conflict (beef). Hit Em Up is what Tupac really thought about the whole situation, and it wasn't a persona or act.

Again, in a world where everything is expected to be viewable or everyone is expected to be online in some way, personas can be carefully planned out and constructed. For Tupac being part of the black community was his persona. His struggles, his fears, his dreams, his nightmares etc all represented the views of his community because he still was part of that. That's what a lot of people miss today (especially whites) when considering Tupac's legacy; his legacy is the legacy of his community just as Malcom X's. Malcolm X lived an extraordinary life in his own right but much of that came about because of his love for his community. He understood his community like Tupac because they both came from the gutter.

Crossing a line that cannot be crossed again is laughable. You don't know how you would respond to someone if you were in that exact same situation and you can never know how you would have. When your loved ones have (still even now) been getting killed for centuries in horrific ways by citizens of your own country that tends to have some long lasting psychological effects on your community. Those effects are not something that can be explained away or rectified by reading books in school, or even attending a Black History Museum once a year or watching Roots on History Channel. If you're in a community that has been (and continues to be) treated as second class citizens (first slaves) do you really think there is any line that cannot be crossed? When you're living in poverty everyday, when you don't have enough food to feed yourself or siblings because your parent is a drug fiend; do lines even exist anymore for people in that kind of lifestyle?

Image. So what kind of image was Tupac constructing for himself then? Everything he did was just for his own self-image so what exactly is that? When you say incorrect observations like that you do a disservice to the community Tupac Shakur served and lived for. He was real, the good the bad and the ugly, and a real problem today is that people look at Tupac without all of the historical perspective or even from a perspective of the community he served.
Click to expand...


great post, great view point and i agree, however i have to say regarding how this thread is shaping up i think its best to just leave "hip hop" on neogaf alone. I've seen alot of hate for hip hop on here over the years i honestly just bite my lip and move on.

i talk hip hop on hip hop forums, over here its senseless.

i guess its the same as arguing over games on a 2pac forum. different worlds.

I'm apparently wearing a tin foil hat because i dont believe 2pac "raped" someone.

I know he didnt. 2pac grew up around women, no father figure, seen the struggle, made "keep your head up" a anthem for the black woman. i can further the debate to an insane degree but ill leave it for now.

the vast majority of members on here are to young or too ignorant to understand the cutural impact that 2pac had, his legacy, his message.

he was just a thug, a gangster and a rapist.


but no, he was a poet, he was a leader, he was a political activist.
 
Lemaitre said:
Seems like a very ignorant write up from someone that does not understand the surrounding culture or history of the black community in the U.S.

His public persona is/was his private persona, an idea that in today's world seems absolutely foreign with social media and media distortion. For Tupac it was the other way around because he did not want to be another sell out for his community. As he said in an interview before, the world has enough celebrities being worshipped and making money off the backs of everyone else. If he wanted that he could have done that but he stuck to his ethos and ideology until the final moment he took his last breath. At any time Tupac could have dropped everything and just become another Ice Cube. He understood that and that would have been taking the easy way out. It takes real guts to be a leader and leave behind the stardom most people would have given anything to achieve. He believed in his community, he believed in the future of his community and their potential but at the same time he understood that the system as a whole has to be changed if true equality and self-determination for black America is to ever come.

One thing that a lot of people today do not understand is how life is like for someone from a lower socio-economic background, specifically in the black community . Tupac Shakur came from a family known for resisting the U.S. government. His family was well known to be part of the Black Panther movement and that ideology sticks out in every single album Tupac put out.

Now for a second of your time just imagine that you're not white and that you were born in this country as a black man. Not only where you born in this country as a black man but you were born in a jail cell while your mother fought for her freedom in court against the U.S. government. Your mother not only fought against the government and won but she also spent years of her life dedicated to helping her community. White America viewed, and in many ways still does, the Black Panthers as a gang of thugs who only wanted to strike terror and death into white America. In reality what the Black Panthers really wanted to do was ideologically educate their members on self-defense and also organize mass breakfast events that would feed the poor in their communities. Imagine having done all of that for your community and then your organization is purged by your government, you and your organization that helped your community so much is forgotten, and you slowly realize that no matter how hard you attempted change you are stuck just right back were you started...just because you're black.

Let me touch on your final point regarding Hit Em Up. If you think that all of the beef started after the song was completed and finished then you are not only speaking from a position of historical ignorance but seem ignorant on how relationships work in general. All of the relationships that Tupac had with people was already well known in the "street" before he put out anything. His beef with Christopher Wallace had already been spiraling out of control for some time, and the "beef" as you call it was already clearly spelled out for everyone. Hit Em Up is not the cause of any beef, it's a response to an ongoing conflict (beef). Hit Em Up is what Tupac really thought about the whole situation, and it wasn't a persona or act.

Again, in a world where everything is expected to be viewable or everyone is expected to be online in some way, personas can be carefully planned out and constructed. For Tupac being part of the black community was his persona. His struggles, his fears, his dreams, his nightmares etc all represented the views of his community because he still was part of that. That's what a lot of people miss today (especially whites) when considering Tupac's legacy; his legacy is the legacy of his community just as Malcom X's. Malcolm X lived an extraordinary life in his own right but much of that came about because of his love for his community. He understood his community like Tupac because they both came from the gutter.

Crossing a line that cannot be crossed again is laughable. You don't know how you would respond to someone if you were in that exact same situation and you can never know how you would have. When your loved ones have (still even now) been getting killed for centuries in horrific ways by citizens of your own country that tends to have some long lasting psychological effects on your community. Those effects are not something that can be explained away or rectified by reading books in school, or even attending a Black History Museum once a year or watching Roots on History Channel. If you're in a community that has been (and continues to be) treated as second class citizens (first slaves) do you really think there is any line that cannot be crossed? When you're living in poverty everyday, when you don't have enough food to feed yourself or siblings because your parent is a drug fiend; do lines even exist anymore for people in that kind of lifestyle?

Image. So what kind of image was Tupac constructing for himself then? Everything he did was just for his own self-image so what exactly is that? When you say incorrect observations like that you do a disservice to the community Tupac Shakur served and lived for. He was real, the good the bad and the ugly, and a real problem today is that people look at Tupac without all of the historical perspective or even from a perspective of the community he served.
Click to expand...

Do some studies and write a well-sourced book if you're trying to school me on socioeconomic issues in the United States. Seriously. You're not telling me anything I'm not fully aware of, and you're totally off-base with your conclusions about my perspective here. Engage the position and not what you're imagining is on the other side of the keyboard.
 
lol@ thinking Pac wouldn't have been all up in some terrible damn movies. He was 25 breh that part of his career was just around the corner.
 
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