damien1928
Banned
You know this how?
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Tupac blamed race in Madonna breakup letter
- Thread starter Kayant
- Start date
You know this how?
Even good actors end up in trash. It's rare to have a Daniel Day Lewis type.
damien1928
Banned
Write a book before debating this with you? Wow. Yup, that's not condescending.
We're talking 2pac here, I don't need any qualification to tell you how he impacted my life and how offended some of us are regarding your "all for image" comment.
damien1928
Banned
Yeah I don't see that for 2pac, he was a positive force in this world, he was trying to neutralise gang wars, he was trying to Change the world, free shows in broken down communities and asking people to donate to give to the community, talking to the communities to uplift society
Dude was 25, he was barely started with where he was going, death row east etc
Instead of taking on any of my points directly you choose to recommend that I write a book instead? Is it because that way, all of my points can be held in a book you'll never see or read, and thus won't have to engage with in an online forum within public view? (See I can make illogical conclusions too). I don't see how me mentioning the word "socioeconomic" a few times would school you, let alone anyone else for that matter.
Your line of argumentation states you are already aware of the socioeconomic issues that effect the U.S. and that no one can tell you more than you already know. Well let me tell you something that may shock you and other whites in this country: there is a certain kind of knowledge that you won't ever understand. That's the knowledge of shared experience having lived in the poorest and most dangerous neighborhoods in this country. It's laughable for you to say that you know the socioeconomic contexts of the black community more than that black community who has painfully experienced that condition for centuries. They don't need books or online message board posts to remember that they have continually been attacked and left to die by their own government that supposedly advocates for their full equality.
If I am off base with your stated conclusions perhaps you could specifically state which conclusions those are, what I said that misrepresented your conclusion, and what your original position was that I talked over and imagined.
I wouldn't necessarily call what he said condescending but more of a diversion from taking on any of my talking points. Why bother going through my response and replying line by line when you can just react with a non sequitur? This conversation exchange highlights a more important issue than just Tupac. It's about the dialogue that the black community has with the white community. How to engage in these discussions in such a way that it can be productive and lead to actual change. The fact that Tupac has us on this message board decades later discussing all of this proves the dude did his job and we're better as a society for having had him here.
D'ultimate
Member
Calm down guys. Everyone has the best intentions here. Let's dial iy back a bit.
Tupac's complexity is why he sometimes idolized. He had anger, compassion, sadness, rage, doubts, fears, hopes, dreams anxieties and it was reflected in his music and you can see a bit of it in this letter to Madonna.
People love him and hate him for it but it came from a place of sincerity.
Tupac's complexity is why he sometimes idolized. He had anger, compassion, sadness, rage, doubts, fears, hopes, dreams anxieties and it was reflected in his music and you can see a bit of it in this letter to Madonna.
People love him and hate him for it but it came from a place of sincerity.
Comment wasn't racially motivated whatsoever. I don't assume anything about someone's skin color on the internet. Or gender. Or anything else. On the other hand, you looked at my avatar and went straight for a racist angle. Bye now.
We're at: baseless assumptions that I don't know anything about Tupac's life or the Tupac/Biggie beef, followed by a condescending and not-very-factual dumbshit faceplant of an attempt to outline said history to me, and then additional "you don't know anything about the struggle 101" talk (based on what? and how are you gleaning that from my original post?), and then assuming that I'm making a racist comment when I react harshly to the aforementioned unwarranted condescension. I didn't say anything about race. I didn't imply anything about race. I didn't come at anyone in this thread. I made a comment contrasting Tupac's words in that interview with his actions afterwards, since it's a pretty fucking stark contrast. With the book comment I implied that the poster was barking up the wrong tree by text bombing me with such incredibly basic context like I'm a random prick throwing an ignorant hot take from my ivory tower of privilege. Nah, just discussing a controversial, divisive figure who has an intense cult of personality.
You seem to be making exaggerations with regards to what has been discussed or stated in this thread. I don't believe that anyone here has stated (or implied) you know nothing about Tupac's life or his beef with Christopher. Perhaps you could take my long winded outline as a chance to expose yourself to issues you may need more time with instead of assuming you know all you need to know about a topic.
Again, nothing you said implied anything with regards to race or class background, we were only discussing these topics in relation to the U.S, and it's history (along with the impact of race and class on Tupac). And again, you're not "just discussing a controversial, divisive figure who has an intense cult of personality", you are discussing a champion/hero/soldier that stood up for his people and advocated self-protection against police brutality. If you choose to ignore his real legacy then you ignore the legacy of a large segment of U.S. citizens.
I suppose I can break down specifically the issues I had with your short blurb here. When you stated "his public persona is like the all-time definitive case study on successfully glorifying all of it" I would be comfortable in saying now that this is a great example of a baseless assumption. First, you assume that Tupac glorified the "gangster" lifestyle but can you demonstrate how he did so through his lyrics? Or perhaps it was through his clothing choices, the way he spoke, the fact he chose to carry a gun, or that he smoked a lot of weed?
I also don't understand how Tupac is a case study of anything. Tupac was living his life as a poor black bastard (no father) in the streets, and to call his life a "case study" of anything is beyond disrespectful. If you want to call the lives of the black community a "case study" then go ahead, because that is exactly what you do when you compare his life and career to one.
Lil'DigiOp
Member
Ive read both of your posts, you guys are having the most serious miscommunication I've seen recently.
Pac lived the struggle publicly. He's a true reflection of his environment, and I believe some people don't understand it. And when they are quick to demonize it, its because they never thought to think about the history to create such situations a person can be shaped.
Pac lived the struggle publicly. He's a true reflection of his environment, and I believe some people don't understand it. And when they are quick to demonize it, its because they never thought to think about the history to create such situations a person can be shaped.
What line did he cross that no one has since?
damien1928
Banned
You created that assumption with the "all for image" comment, also did you ban daffy?
You really expect me to draw you up a 1:1 scale of a timeline, seriously? Like I said earlier this isn't the place I talk hip hop, I'm not trying to push a genre of music which isn't heavily regarded here
I know the history and you seemed naive to it in your original post, you went on and on about 2pacs contradictions but if you had spent anytime listening to or studying Tupac you would see why he was portrayed as two different people, why he was displaying two different strong characteristics, this anger and frustration your projecting is only eluding to that you know nothing of the situation, which is fine.
However being negative and insulting in the process isn't helping the situation, apologise and move on.
megatronium
Member
Wow!!
Galactic Barret
Member
Edit: I was incorrect in the detail that Tupac killed the officer. He did shoot him, however.
This thread breaks my heart. Pac was a murderer, sure (Saving the life of a man being viciously beaten by a Police Officer, but so what. Labels), but a rapist? Come on.
Next, you'll tell me Kobe really raped that woman in Denver.
This thread breaks my heart. Pac was a murderer, sure (Saving the life of a man being viciously beaten by a Police Officer, but so what. Labels), but a rapist? Come on.
Next, you'll tell me Kobe really raped that woman in Denver.
I havent read the entire thread, but i guess you're being sarcastic or joking ?
damien1928
Banned
It really does, I honestly think the film, "all eyes on me" did a lot more damage then good
man I hate that film.
Glad that I didn't end up checking that film out. Reviews were so bad that I couldn't go even for my boy.
Hope that a much better film, or short series, is made concerning his life.
damien1928
Banned
2pac didn't kill anyone.
A 6 year old child was killed by a gun registered to him, not he himself that pulled the trigger.
He shot two police officers, they didn't die.
Galactic Barret
Member
I believe East Coast vs. West Coast when I first read it, but that was a media perpetuation. Rappers didn't suddenly hate rappers from another coast. It was the two biggest labels fueding, and RL friends of Pac/Biggie inserting themselves into it.
I can't say publicly dissing your nemesis by name, because that isn't true. Or real life violence spilling over from verbal jabs, because that isn't true. Or even talking about one's spouse/SO. Off the top, in order: 50 and Ja Rule/Jadakiss/Fat Joe, Murder Inc and G-unit (I seem to recall an incident in the Hot 97 parking lot), and Drake (Yeah, Drake...) and Meek Mill.
Or maybe I'm off base and he meant another line that hasn't been crossed since. But I would be willing to bet it has been. Rap is expansive.
Really? The undercover officer didn't die? My bad for spreading false information. Don't want to add anymore of that here. Won't delete, but I will add a retraction.
But then, that means his word was taken over the word of 2 LA Police Officers. In the 90's. Thats fucking crazy in and of itself.
damien1928
Banned
Yeah you never want to see it, unless you want to be mad at the inaccuracy and the poor portrayal of Tupac, Jada Pinkett Smith commenting on the film, validating that her last interaction with him in the movie was all a lie really was the last straw, considering what that scene was supposed to be doing.
The ending was wow, atrociously bad, they could have done so much with the ending and they really messed up, I was sitting afterwards writing down multiple ways they could have ended it that would of been more authentic and more fitting. Film was a mistake.
Syphon Filter
Member
I knew it was a bad idea to make a movie in the first place, never a fan of that. Just watch the real tupac on youtube, plenty of interviews,etc. Also Afeni didn't support the movie, that should say it all.
damien1928
Banned
Yeah still not sure what the line that's never been crossed since is?
If it's east vs south
They didn't create that
If it's pac saying i fucked your wife
People have said and done worse since
If it's threatening to kill
Again, people have crossed that line
What's the point your trying to make?
Galactic Barret
Member
I'm sorry, I'm not sure what this means exactly.
The severity of the diss? Who he dissed? How many people he dissed in one song?
Because there are events that have happened since that follow (and exceed) that exact mold. The East V. West thing was media hype. This was Death Row v. Bad Boy Entertainment. It just so happened they were on opposing coasts.
I'll never watch it. The 'biopic' could never match up to what I know really happened by listening to people that knew him best and the man himself.
damien1928
Banned
Yeah Afeni would not support this, honestly thought that Tupac ressurection did a great job though of showing the true person he was
damien1928
Banned
Glad I'm not alone here
damien1928
Banned
Yeah, neither died, it was found out that they were drinking, they were intimidating another young black motorist, they shot first.
Me, someone born after Tupac died
Soltype
Member
There's a thing called context. Which is why I provided it. People say worse things to each other every day. We could go harder at each other right now in this thread, without much effort; I have millions of words under my belt trolling idiots on the internet and people form communities around their mutual salt for me, so it's not like I revere Hit 'Em Up as the holy grail of personal attacks on a lyrical level. But if we had a verbal exchange here it just wouldn't, y'know, matter at all, no one would care, and it would waste my time and that of anyone who's reading. Hit 'Em Up, though, was and remains a hell of a thing, and has become a cultural artifact.
There have been plenty of other diss tracks before and after that have cut deep with personal humiliation or threatened lives. It's the context. The time, the place, the circumstances, the visibility, the participants, and the influence. You're really trying to downplay the highest profile diss track of all time (with an incredibly incendiary video to match)? You're gonna tell me that notable artists are slinging anything like this at each other anymore? No. Not when there are real stakes. And it's a conscious decision. Everyone would rather sip Ace of Spades at the club and enjoy success with a pulse than get zipped up in a body bag over words that can't be taken back, and for good reason.
OG Shaka Zulu
Member
The only thing I can think of about the line being crossed with HitEmUp is if the Puffy/Southside Crip hit theory is true. Under that theory, Puff was going to only have Suge killed and Pac was added to the hit after the song dropped. The hit was supposed to be in LA, but Deathrow sped things forward when they jumped Orlando Anderson.
Syphon Filter
Member
why did puff want suge dead?
Galactic Barret
Member
Ok, bolded I agree with. It is the pinnacle of vitriol and savageness thrown at a rival on an instrumental by the most iconic rapper in history. That I cannot deny.
The rest I disagree with, but I'll just let it go. Let me just leave the fact that Jeezy put a bounty out on Gucci Mane and he had to kill someone (2 people) to protect himself. Jeezy went on to perform for former President Obama. I'll leave my argument at that.
Who wouldn't want 90's Suge dead? He was ruthless, a dirtbag. He basically said he had people injected with HIV/AIDS needles on Jimmy Kimmel. It really isn't a stretch to imagine he hyped Pac into escalating the beef. You don't want a wildcard like that around, coming at you or your artists.
Puff daddy's bodyguard (I think) killed suges best friend allegedly. So suge knight allegedly kidnapped one of pd's freinds made him drink piss and tourtured him to give up pd's moms address.
Watch muder rap.
OG Shaka Zulu
Member
It's pretty wild that he had Madonna running intel on Haitian Jack. Shows how close they were at one point if she had access to his personal life like that.
Preemptive hit. He was convinced Suge was coming for him so he struck first. Bodies were already dropping before Pac's murder. Pac's killing sparked further back and forth gang murders in LA.
Schattenjäger
Gabriel Knight
damien1928
Banned
Honestly I don't know who you are, outside of being the owner of this site, however what I do know though from speaking with you breifly, is that I want to keep it that way. I'm not trying to reduce the conversation to level your addressing, trolling and name calling isn't gonna happen here, I'm a grown man with kids I'm not looking to call you names. I just want to finish this conversation and move on.
However my issue is numerous times in this topic you've danced around my questions or plainly ignored them and others to, you lack clarity, to the point I feel like im wasting my time which is something I no longer want to do.
I KNEW me getting involved in this topic was going to be an issue, I refer back to it earlier, I always bite my lip on hip hop topics here because of the lack of knowledge and opinions, also the age of members are a factor but again, your birth date shouldn't restrict you from an opinion on something you may have not been alive for, I'm not trying to enforce it at all, context is key.
I just couldn't do it this time because the conversation was getting so out of control
I didn't want to have a back and forth with you or anyone
So to conclude, yeah 2pac went to jail, he did nothing, everyone in this thread who rolled their eyes or who said I was victim blaming was misunderstanding because they know nothing on the matter, it was rumoured for years 2pac and madonna got together in some capacity because they were often seen together and they made a track together.
I will try my best to not get involved in any more gaf rap related topics, like I said earlier I just want to finish this conversation and move on. I feel like an old man shouting at the kids "this new stuff ain't hip hop, this is hip hop"
I'll try to smile and say "ahhh, gaf"
What. Grabbing ass is equivalent to woman beating?
Because let's be very clear here: Tupac was never convicted of rape. He was convicted of forcible grabbing of the buttocks.
-tetsuo-
Unlimited Capacity
Is this sarcasm?
damien1928
Banned
No why?
Schattenjäger
Gabriel Knight
Song was written and released ( on mix tapes) before he died
Album came out after
biggersmaller
Banned
"We broke-up a long time ago, a reeeaaal long time ago. Madonna was dopest girl I got know. In ninety fo."
OG_Original Gamer
Member
Do you know what, "murdered on wax and killed", means?
Jesus fucking Christ.
Wet Bloodfart
Banned
Actually, it's not worth my comment. Bumping is dumb.