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"Turkish redditor explains how Erdogan is destroying Turkey"

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nynt9

Member
As a person of Turkish descent, I wanted to highlight this because it rings very true to me. There's a lot of negativity towards Turkey online, quite a bit of it deserved, but most of that negativity should be directed to Erdogan personally. I've tried to explain here and there why, but this is a good central explanation.

https://np.reddit.com/r/worldnews/c...rdogan_contest_set_up_by_uk/d29wm8e?context=3

It's difficult to explain very briefly why he is hated because he's been ruling the country for the last 13 years and throughout this period he's done a lot to piss off many people but I'll do my best to mention a few. In the 90s he served as the mayor of Istanbul from an Islamist party and it was a shock to all secular/liberal people when he won the election in 1994 against a popular left-wing musician. His popularity grew as a mayor and ironically in 1999 he served prison time for reciting an Islamist poem at a rally. In 2001, he an a few friends left the Islamist party and founded a new party (AKP) and claimed that they aren't political Islamists anymore, but instead conservative democrats in a similar fashion to the Christian democrat parties in Europe. After the 2002 elections his party won enough seats to form a single-party government and he's been running the country ever since.
In fact, in their first term AKP really looked much more like a mainstream conservative-liberal party rather than an authoritarian-Islamist one that we have today. This was probably because there were lots of liberal center-right figures in the party at that time which still could have influence and although Erdogan's bigotry was showing here and there, it wasn't a big deal because there was progress being made toward democratization and EU membership.
After the first term things began going south gradually, and especially since 2011 Erdogan controlled pretty much everything while at the same time doing his best to make the population more conservative than it already is. Here are some examples of how bad it is:
On women's rights: he argued several times that women and men are not equal, that he values women only as mothers, that they should bear at least 3 children, that they should not have abortions (although abortion is legal in Turkey, after Erdogan's stance on the issue became clear, many hospitals were discouraged from performing abortions), and should not even have c-section births.
On Syrian Civil War: he openly supported 'moderate' rebels, who turned out to be nearly as bad as ISIS. He sent weapons and aid to those Islamist rebels and when this was made a news story, the journalists who wrote it were jailed for 'espionage' (they were later released thanks to the Constitutional Court). Thanks to Erdogan's involvement in the war in Syria, there are now nearly 3 million Syrian refugees in Turkey, many of whom are on the streets or working illegally for very low pay.
On freedom of speech/press/Internet: You've probably heard it on the news sometime that Twitter was blocked in Turkey for a while. There are currently more than 50,000 websites blocked in Turkey by simple court orders and it's very difficult to reverse those. Most people try changing DNS servers or using VPN's to bypass those bans. Most of the press is also controlled by pro-Erdogan people because popular TV channels and newspapers were either purchased, 'seized' with a court order and then given to a pro-Erdogan boss, or coerced into changing their policies. And about the freedom of speech, the reason why this post exists: there are nearly 2,000 lawsuits opened for 'insulting' Erdogan and this is only one thing to worry about when speaking in public in Turkey.
On Soma mine disaster: In 2014 there was a mine disaster in Soma, Turkey in which more than 300 miners died. It was the biggest mine disaster in Turkey. The survivors and the relatives of those who died in the disaster were of course angry because the company ignored many regulations which could have saved a lot of lives. So, when Erdogan visited the town, instead of trying to console the people, he tried to punch a man shouting anti-semitic slurs. And his aide, who was approached by a relative of a miner who died in the disaster, kicked him while he was held on the ground by the military police.
On Gezi protests: By 2013, Erdogan's authority was pretty much established and he didn't see the need to consult the inhabitants of any place before ordered development plans, huge urban transformations, destruction of parks and forests. In the summer of 2013, when inhabitants of Istanbul witnessed that the trees in one of the few urban parks in the city center - the Gezi Park - were being cut down, decided to protest and set up tents in the park in order to prevent the demolition. They met with a very violent police response and their tents were demolished. Their friends came in to support them, and the police struck harder. Thus the protests grew rapidly and millions of people were on the streets in most Turkish cities. Police brutality during the protests claimed 11 lives (and gas canisters aimed directly to the face made many people blind), including a 14-year-old boy who was in a coma for almost a year before he finally died. Erdogan claimed full responsibility for the police brutality ("I ordered the police. So what?") and argued in a rally that the 14-year-old boy was a terrorist and made the crowd boo his mother.
On education: Lots of secular schools were transformed into religious "Imam-Hatip Schools", which used to be vocational schools for imams but now simply a way to impose religion on kids and to separate boys and girls from an early age.
On corruption: In late 2013, Gulenists, a powerful religious group which used to be Erdogan's ally but they had a falling out, exposed several phone recordings and other evidence that revealed a huge corruption scandal that involved Erdogan, his family, his close friends, state-owned banks among others. Erdogan responded with a purge in the police force and judiciary and recently seized the group's newspaper (the most circulated paper in Turkey).
On Kurdish question: Erdogan's government initially tried to make peace with PKK, Kurdish insurgent group and the efforts continued until 2015. But when the pro-Kurdish party won 13% in elections, Erdogan, who believed that his party should have been the only one benefiting from peace, broke all peace negotiations and started a heavy crackdown on PKK and the urban warfare is still going on in some Kurdish towns with many civilian casualties reported. I've already mentioned that in Syria, Erdogan supports the Islamists, and he tolerated ISIS because ISIS fought the Kurds in the north, which was seen by Erdogan as the bigger enemy.
These are only some of the things that came to my mind, and specifically what made me hate him. Someone else can come up with completely different reasons to hate him. Also keep in mind that along with what he does, what he says matters a lot too, and most of what he says is very divisive and hateful and I'm very concerned about the future of my country. Even if he died tomorrow, the wounds he inflicted would take decades to heal.

Some more context from another redditor here:

Since Ataturk, the military has been seen as the guardian of secularism for Turkey. It hasn't always worked out that way necessarily, but they have stepped in numerous times to take power when they felt the country was going too far towards being run by an Islamic government.
That Erdrogan has effectively neutered the military in this regard is probably his greatest accomplishment as he's secured power.
Also, last year he lost elections in Turkey, and everyone was cheering about what a setback it was for him. He simply called new elections 6 months later and got more of a result he was looking for.
He's been popular with Western governments because he's seen as pro business, and he's been pro NATO.
Turkey has one of the richest histories in the world. The region has truly been the fulcrum between Europe and the far east. I had hopes at one time that Turkey could be the bridge between an Islam threatened by western liberalism, to an Islam that finds accommodation with a secular west, but Erdrogan has dashed that during his reign. My only hope is that his successor - which looks like will only come upon his death - will not be quite as able and successful.

The military thing might sound odd for people lacking the context. Turkey was built from the ashes of the Ottoman Empire, with interests of the caliphate trying to undermine the secular values of the country and bring back the Ottoman Empire. The military clause was instated as a result of this.

Yeah, this is the thing I keep trying to explain to anyone who will listen, have been complaining about for years.
Mustafa Kemal Attaturk vested the power of impeachment in the Turkish military because it was the one institution, in the whole of Turkey, that is pan-ethnic, multi-sectarian, and meritocratic.
The European Union made it a condition of Turkey's ongoing negotiations towards membership that they reign in the military, take away the power of impeachment, because when Europeans hear "military rule" they don't think "orderly impeachment under the law," they think Napoleon.
Which is why nobody stopped him when Erdogan, as soon as he took power, rounded up every secularist military officer in the country, staged blatantly dishonest show trials, and falsely convicted them of attempted coup d'etat.
Which is why there was nobody to stop him when he seized control over the judiciary and the election commission.
Which is why nobody was able to stop him when he seized control of the press.
Which is why every year he gets more blatant about being a Turkish-supremacist Sunni Islamist who intends to place himself and his heirs on the throne of a revived caliphate. Who's going to stop him?

Here's another quote from me, with my personal experiences:

Infrastructure: They have stakes in construction companies so by constantly tearing down and rebuilding buildings they line their pockets.

Healthcare: They made hospitals eat the costs of health care, making many hospitals go out of business, or lower in price, then their interests purchased said hospitals, and threw in jail the owner of a private hospital for no real reason.

Unemployment was actually pretty high. They sold many companies that were traditionally Turkish to foreign interests reducing the country's autonomy.

Erdogan was arrested decades ago for inciting religious hatred. He did prison time. He was always a religious nut.

Edit: since some have asked, here are some citations for some of these:

http://www.worldcrunch.com/culture-...-health-women-039-s-rights-hospital/c3s10595/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gezi_Park_protests

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...turkey-mining-disaster-turkish-prime-minister

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/jun/10/turkey-free-speech-erdogan-crackdown

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_freedom_in_Turkey
 

Des0lar

will learn eventually
Thanks for the insight. I knew Erdogan was a dirtbag, but didn't just how much.

Please don't sue me Erdogan
 

qazqaNii

Member
As a Turkish person that was not born in Turkey nor lives in Turkey with little to no political knowledge at all my opinion is that he is still the best leader there is compared to the other candidates.

I would've probably voted for him if I were not lazy to travel to the Turkish embassy since that would mean a 800km travel distance.

Who else are you going to vote for?
MHP? Would lead to problems with HDP.
CHP? Had a serious internal crisis recently because of the Ataturk poster.

You have also quoted yourself with personal experience what does that even mean? Do you have any credible sources because this is the internet, are you even living in Turkey?

So my question to you I guess, would be, what in your opinion would be good? Since I am no good with politics, with little to no knowledge at all.
 

nynt9

Member
As a Turkish person that was not born in Turkey nor lives in Turkey with little to no political knowledge at all my opinion is that he is still the best leader there is compared to the other candidates.

I would've probably voted for him if I were not lazy to travel to the Turkish embassy since that would mean a 800km travel distance.

Who else are you going to vote for?
MHP? Would lead to problems with HDP.
CHP? Had a serious internal crisis recently because of the Ataturk poster.

You have also quoted yourself with personal experience what does that even mean? Do you have any credible sources because this is the internet, are you even living in Turkey?

So my question to you I guess, would be, what in your opinion would be good? Since I am no good with politics, with little to no knowledge at all.

I'm not saying any opposition leader is better. The opposition being trash has contributed to his rise greatly. There is no need for whataboutism here.

I used to live in Turkey up until about 5 years ago, about 8 years under the AKP reign. My parents and friends all still live there and I speak to my parents who are directly affected by the hospital thing, as they're both doctors and personal friends of the doctor in question who was jailed.
 

Mii

Banned
Hadnt realized it was mostly the EUs fault why we haven't seen another coup to fix the Erdogan problem.

The failed European Experiment is the gift that keeps on giving.
 
Can I just give you some general advice about certain things?

If you want to find out about something and get clued up, using reddit and an upvoted comment to be your source of information shouldn't even be close to where you get your information.

Please research for yourself and put in the time.

That post is pretty embarrassing and I despise Recep.
 
Can I just give you some general advice about certain things?

If you want to find out about something and get clued up, using reddit and an upvoted comment to be your source of information shouldn't even be close to where you get your information.

Please research for yourself and put in the time.

That post is pretty embarrassing and I despise Recep.

This. Don't trust anything typed by a Redditor.
 

Mii

Banned
Can I just give you some general advice about certain things?

If you want to find out about something and get clued up, using reddit and an upvoted comment to be your source of information shouldn't even be close to where you get your information.

Please research for yourself and put in the time.

That post is pretty embarrassing and I despise Recep.

This. Don't trust anything typed by a Redditor.

Would you care to assist him with resources then? The comments are not very helpful without some suggestions on 1) Why what is stated is wrong, and 2) What is actually correct.
 

Ethelwulf

Member
Thank you for the link OP. Always nice to get informed about an issue everybody criticizes yet few actually understand. May I ask, where is your avatar from?
 

nynt9

Member
Can I just give you some general advice about certain things?

If you want to find out about something and get clued up, using reddit and an upvoted comment to be your source of information shouldn't even be close to where you get your information.

Please research for yourself and put in the time.

That post is pretty embarrassing and I despise Recep.

As I said it matches my personal experience and opinion. It's hard to find concrete facts about all of this, because Turkey is generally not heavily reported on by international media, especially early in the AKP's tenure. Feel free to show me otherwise with sources, and I'll include them in the OP.

Thank you for the link OP. Always nice to get informed about an issue everybody criticizes yet few actually understand. May I ask, where is your avatar from?

No idea! It's this gif I found once, then someone added more 'stache to it as part of the order 1886 hype train.

YuCizhg.gif
 
No. Step up and do your own research.

Love how an army can be seen as the guardians of democracy, people celebrating the fact that the army performing coups d'etats when the west want them to.

Google hyperinflation, IMF please - actually there's your starting point
 

Chairman Yang

if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
Heavy's Sandwich: Your OP is embarrassingly wrong.

Everyone else: How so?

Heavy's Sandwich: I won't tell you. You're just wrong and if you do more research you'll agree with me.

Not very convincing, HS.
 
Goes from an international lackey to super power in the region.

I liken him to thatcher more than anything.

Also on the Kurds, under erdogan relations never have been so good, even with the violence now.

Still can't get over the worship of attire and the army, you guys talk out of both sides of your mouths.

Edit: honestly wrote that before the above comment.

It's about talking to people that actually want to think critically about things. If you're using Reddit and a comment as a way to introduce a complex topic, you're too far gone.

Do ignore me. Stick to Reddit.
 

Mendrox

Member
No. Step up and do your own research.

Love how an army can be seen as the guardians of democracy, people celebrating the fact that the army performing coups d'etats when the west want them to.

Google hyperinflation, IMF please - actually there's your starting point

Yeah...no. Where are your sources for the counter argument? D:
 

Ogodei

Member
Rank demagoguery will lead to a messy Venezuela-style end when Justice and Construction proves too incompetent, but has hooked too many people on their patronage to allow for the party to become the minority again.

Things are going to get worse before they get better, i fear, since the mess in Venezuela still isn't over (though barring extralegal action, the next election should see change). Turkey hasn't hit that same boiling point yet, which is surprising when you flood 3 million new people into the country in under 4 years.
 

nynt9

Member
Goes from an international lackey to super power in the region.

I liken him to thatcher more than anything.

Also on the Kurds, under erdogan relations never have been so good, even with the violence now.

Still can't get over the worship of attire and the army, you guys talk out of both sides of your mouths.

Edit: honestly wrote that before the above comment.

It's about talking to people that actually want to think critically about things. If you're using Reddit and a comment as a way to introduce a complex topic, you're too far gone.

Do ignore me. Stick to Reddit.

I agree that Turkey used to be a lackey of western powers before Erdogan, and he was a lackey of Western and Eastern powers, and now he's simply a borderline dictator backed by Eastern powers. I'm not sure if that's better or worse.

You're still not introducing "complexity" to this topic. If you're interested in a different direction of discussion it's on you to initiate it. I'm not even being hostile to you. I'll welcome any discussion you bring, but you're just refusing to play ball.
 

TheChaos0

Member
No. Step up and do your own research.

Love how an army can be seen as the guardians of democracy, people celebrating the fact that the army performing coups d'etats when the west want them to.

Google hyperinflation, IMF please - actually there's your starting point

I'm sorry but about you provide us with some information or point out exactly which points of informations you think are wrong, instead of "This is all wrong but I won't tell you anything." Hardly adds to this thread and just makes you look silly.
 

trembli0s

Member
No. Step up and do your own research.

Love how an army can be seen as the guardians of democracy, people celebrating the fact that the army performing coups d'etats when the west want them to.

Google hyperinflation, IMF please - actually there's your starting point

When the options are Islamofascism and crony capitalism as opposed to a secular corrupt military, I know which option to choose 100% of the time.
 

qazqaNii

Member
I'm not saying any opposition leader is better. The opposition being trash has contributed to his rise greatly. There is no need for whataboutism here.

I used to live in Turkey up until about 5 years ago, about 8 years under the AKP reign. My parents and friends all still live there and I speak to my parents who are directly affected by the hospital thing, as they're both doctors and personal friends of the doctor in question who was jailed.

I don't know what you want to discuss but I guess everyone has their own opinion. I have been travelling to Turkey every year for the past 5 years with my whole family for two months over the Summers, my relatives that live there are actually pretty happy with the government and all the possibilities they offer. Farmers are quite happy about the way it is, work 3-4 months during the summer which is what some of my relatives do and rest until the next summer or work with something else if needed. My dad when he was studying in Turkey back in the 80s mentioned the politics were a disaster and he could barely go back home from school because of right and left group fights that would occur.

I guess you can't satisfy everyone but so far, as long as nothing better gets presented by the opposition, Erdogan will remain seated. The problem I see is that the opposition instead of really coming up with ideas that would be better than what Erdogan is presenting is that they are just shit talking Erdogan instead of actually talking about what changes they are going to make.
 

nynt9

Member
I don't know what you want to discuss but I guess everyone has their own opinion. I have been travelling to Turkey every year for the past 5 years with my whole family for two months over the Summers, my relatives that live there are actually pretty happy with the government and all the possibilities they offer. Farmers are quite happy about the way it is, work 3-4 months during the summer which is what some of my relatives do and rest until the next summer or work with something else if needed. My dad when he was studying in Turkey back in the 80s mentioned the politics were a disaster and he could barely go back home from school because of right and left group fights that would occur.

I guess you can't satisfy everyone but so far, as long as nothing better gets presented by the opposition, Erdogan will remain seated. The problem I see is that the opposition instead of really coming up with ideas that would be better than what Erdogan is presenting is that they are just shit talking Erdogan instead of actually talking about what changes they are going to make.

Yeah the 80s were a time of strife for many reasons. My parents were also quite negatively affected by that. We had a good run in the 90s after that though.

And some of Erdogan's policies have legitimately helped some of the poorer people, and his populist rhetoric in his early days was welcomed by the more fundamentalist parts of the population who felt disenfranchised by the secular, westernized life style of those "in the city". This, coupled with the opposition being complacent lead to his rise. As stated, in the early days he wasn't as bad. His policies weren't perfect (see my thing about hospitals), but they benefited some people. Those days are gone though.

Here's an example of how his abortion policy affects people: http://www.worldcrunch.com/culture-...-health-women-039-s-rights-hospital/c3s10595/
 

oti

Banned
Trust me, we here in Germany know who's to blame when it comes to Turkey's current situation. We are just flabbergasted that he's so popular, even with Turks living here in Germany.
 
Erdogan is the fucking worst.

One of my best friends is Turkish and married to my other best friend and when they went back to visit her parents during a lot of the protests like Gezi Park and such her husband took pictures and documented what was going on there and it was fucking appalling. My friend's parents basically told her that they loved having her there but she shouldn't come back for a long time. Heart-breaking but they were legitimately worried for her there and have since moved to the US to get away from the land of their birth because Erdogan is such a dangerous and negative piece of garbage.
 

nynt9

Member
Wasn't he a dictator?

"Ataturk was a fierce dictator" is indeed a pretty popular rhetoric among Erdogan supporters. I think that's outside the scope of this thread but I'll just say I disagree. And so does, you know, world history. I gues you can call him a dictator if you want the caliphate to be reestablished because he dissolved it and "forced" secularity onto the country.

We can take this to PMs if you really want to go into it, assuming you're arguing in good faith.
 

KDR_11k

Member
Also http://rsf.org/en/turkey (ranked 151 out of 180)

Unfortunately the new World Press Freedom Index doesn't seem to include many writeups on the details, some countries don't come with text at all. Used to be a fairly detailed breakdown of the various aspects of the score and what events changed it.
 
Uhh:

On Soma mine disaster: In 2014 there was a mine disaster in Soma, Turkey in which more than 300 miners died. It was the biggest mine disaster in Turkey. The survivors and the relatives of those who died in the disaster were of course angry because the company ignored many regulations which could have saved a lot of lives. So, when Erdogan visited the town, instead of trying to console the people, he tried to punch a man shouting anti-semitic slurs. And his aide, who was approached by a relative of a miner who died in the disaster, kicked him while he was held on the ground by the military police.

... This doesn't sound too terrible?
 

nynt9

Member
Can anyone elaborate on this CHP poster thing I'm hearing about?

I don't think it's a huge issue but: http://www.dailysabah.com/politics/...zliaka-over-inter-party-ataturk-portrait-spat

From what I understand someone took down a portrait of the founder of the party and the country, and were discharged for it. I haven't been able to follow the story on this one. Note that even though this party is called the republican party, it is very different from the USA republican party. They're more social democratic/liberal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican_People's_Party_(Turkey)

Uhh:


... This doesn't sound too terrible?

Here's a more detailed expose on the mining situation. The characterization in the reddit post is incomplete imo, but I didn't edit the text of it obviously.
http://www.spiegel.de/international...ls-cracks-in-turkish-leadership-a-970284.html
 
I don't think it's a huge issue but: http://www.dailysabah.com/politics/...zliaka-over-inter-party-ataturk-portrait-spat

From what I understand someone took down a portrait of the founder of the party and the country, and were discharged for it. I haven't been able to follow the story on this one. Note that even though this party is called the republican party, it is very different from the USA republican party. They're more social democratic/liberal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican_People's_Party_(Turkey)

As an outsider, I've always found it a bit sad that the standard response of the Turkish people I've spoken to about the state of their country seems to be: "We'd be a wonderful liberal democracy, if it wasn't for the majority of the population".

Erdogan is a dangerous egomaniac imho, but perhaps if a portion of the country hadn't spent the last 90 years so preoccupied with trampling the rights of their fellow citizens they wouldn't find themselves in the mess they're in right now. And speaking of Ataturk and his appraisal, fascinating guy for sure, but the Chinese Politburo is more objective on Chairman Mao than the CHP has ever been regarding Ataturk.
 
As an outsider, I've always found it a bit sad that the standard response of the Turkish people I've spoken to about the state of their country seems to be: "We'd be a wonderful liberal democracy, if it wasn't for the majority of the population".

Erdogan is a dangerous egomaniac imho, but perhaps if a portion of the country hadn't spent the last 90 years so preoccupied with trampling the rights of their fellow citizens they wouldn't find themselves in the mess they're in right now. And speaking of Ataturk and his appraisal, fascinating guy for sure, but the Chinese Politburo is more objective on Chairman Mao than the CHP has ever been regarding Ataturk.

He's the first significant fascist dictator of the 20th century
 

nynt9

Member
As an outsider, I've always found it a bit sad that the standard response of the Turkish people I've spoken to about the state of their country seems to be: "We'd be a wonderful liberal democracy, if it wasn't for the majority of the population".

Erdogan is a dangerous egomaniac imho, but perhaps if a portion of the country hadn't spent the last 90 years so preoccupied with trampling the rights of their fellow citizens they wouldn't find themselves in the mess they're in right now. And speaking of Ataturk and his appraisal, fascinating guy for sure, but the Chinese Politburo is more objective on Chairman Mao than the CHP has ever been regarding Ataturk.

I mostly agree, though the AKP vote hasn't been the majority vote for a while I think. They have the largest portion of the vote, but not a majority. But the idea you cite "if only weren't for those people" thing has been a big problem with Turkey, and the opposition parties have been thinking about how to solve it too. Some of them have tried to embarrassingly pander to the AKP audience, and it has been pretty disastrous. As it stands, there is no good solution. Even if we somehow magically deposed Erdogan, there wouldn't be someone to take his place.

He's the first significant fascist dictator of the 20th century

I think you'd be hard pressed to back up this claim. History is not on your side for this one. He started a revolution that was led by the people. He overthrew foreign elements that had divided up the country, and brought it back to its people. Islamists who are upset about him introducing secularity keep trying to push this narrative, but there are no reputable organizations or entities who recognize that narrative. Since you love "just google it" so much, you can google "ataturk dictator" to see that what I'm saying is the case.
 

kittoo

Cretinously credulous
Was in Turkey around 6 months back and it was extremely refreshing to see such an openly secular Muslim country which respects women equally, cares and nurtures non-Islamic past too (even if only to a certain extent) and simply feels liberal.
Reading the OP was quite depressing for me, to see Turkey might not remain the same in a few years or decades.
 

nynt9

Member
Was in Turkey around 6 months back and it was extremely refreshing to see such an openly secular Muslim country which respects women equally, cares and nurtures non-Islamic past too (even if only to a certain extent) and simply feels liberal.
Reading the OP was quite depressing for me, to see Turkey might not remain the same in a few years or decades.

The secular ideas and Muslim ideas generally had tension between each other. Erdogan had been pushing the scale away from secularity for years now, but foreign media hadn't really caught up to it until a year or so ago. Two reasons: foreign media seemed really interested in propping Erdogan up, and Erdogan was jailing local journalists who spoke against him, so the rhetoric never really got out. At least that's my interpretation. The Gezi protests from a few years ago were a results of that bottled anger over many years. It's just that most of these conflicts happened internally and were never reflected internationally.
 
Yeah, one of my friend's friends from Turkey while they were there was arrested for skirting their internet laws and using Twitter to post updates on the protests.
 

Linkyn

Member
I think it's problematic that so many of the issues surrounding Erdogan and the AKP only tend to come up during election season. There is always outrage and disbelief when things like the Gezi protests, the police force purges, clashes with the PKK, etc. are reported, but too many forget too quickly.

I want Turkey to be a modern, secular nation, and I want there to be stronger ties between Turkey and the rest of Europe, so it hurts me profoundly to see so many of the country's core values and principles being eroded with little to no opposition.

I hate the fact that the different European nations can't seem to get on the same side in foreign policy matters, and that the EU has to work with the current Turkish leadership to get a handle on the refugee crisis. I wish there was more unity and solidarity, so that a collective Europe could reject both the man and his ideology.
 
I think you'd be hard pressed to back up this claim. History is not on your side for this one. He started a revolution that was led by the people. He overthrew foreign elements that had divided up the country, and brought it back to its people. Islamists who are upset about him introducing secularity keep trying to push this narrative, but there are no reputable organizations or entities who recognize that narrative. Since you love "just google it" so much, you can google "ataturk dictator" to see that what I'm saying is the case.

"mountain turks"

you do realise where the "Kurdish problem" really began?
 

nynt9

Member
I think it's problematic that so many of the issues surrounding Erdogan and the AKP only tend to come up during election season. There is always outrage and disbelief when things like the Gezi protests, the police force purges, clashes with the PKK, etc. are reported, but too many forget too quickly.

I want Turkey to be a modern, secular nation, and I want there to be stronger ties between Turkey and the rest of Europe, so it hurts me profoundly to see so many of the country's core values and principles being eroded with little to no opposition.

I hate the fact that the different European nations can't seem to get on the same side in foreign policy matters, and that the EU has to work with the current Turkish leadership to get a handle on the refugee crisis. I wish there was more unity and solidarity, so that a collective Europe could reject both the man and his ideology.

There's always a joke in Turkey that Turkish people forget way too easily. Unfortunately it rings rather true. As long as people have food to eat and a job, a lot of things are secondary. Turkish people are also extremely apathetic towards politics except when it's election season.

"mountain turks"

you do realise where the "Kurdish problem" really began?

It began before Turkey existed. The region was problematic long before, the Ottoman Empire didn't help either. The Treaty of Sevres was a big blow to the region as well. The Sheikh Said rebellion in 1924 appropriated Kurdish concerns, but it was actually an attempt to bring the Caliphate back. The entangling those two causes by former Ottoman separatists further poisoned the well for Kurdish independence. The Dersim massacre was shameful. The dehumanization of Kurdish people as well. However the situation is a bit more complicated than you make it seem. If anyone cares, I'd urge them to read this document: http://www.jstor.org/stable/4284037?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents - It's not a whitewashing of Ataturk. He started out prioritizing national unity over ethnic identity, as he believed that was what led to the downfall of the Ottoman Empire, but that clashed with the wishes of the Kurds, who rebelled several times, and those rebellions were quashed with prejudice, resulting in tens of thousands of Kurds dead. This is probably the biggest mark on Ataturk's legacy, and it should not be ignored. However, he has also done a lot of good, turning a war-torn country into a secular republic, unifying ethnic Turks and Circassians. He established democracy, reformed Islam, gave women rights, brought literacy to the people, established secularity, and more. He was a flawed man who made grave mistakes whose effects are still felt today, but he also did good. I think pigeonholing him as a savior or a dictator removes nuance from the situation.

But this topic isn't about Ataturk anyway. Ironically though, Erdogan is trying to take away secularity, de-reform Islam backwards, reduce the rights of women, reduce literacy and more.
 

KUON.0101

Member
Let's be honest with this. Even when the military was in a stronger position, the Kurds were violently oppressed. Basically what Erdogan is doing to the Kurds, is what the military did before him.

But this time Erdogan is also pissing off the rich and often seculair elite too.

It was very mind blowing that many Turks were so surprised about the violent reaction of the police during the Gezi park protests. Hey, that is happening to the Kurds since forever (especially in Eastern Turkey). So no surprise there.
 
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