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UK General Election 2017 |OT2| No Government is better than a bad Government

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O

OverBlood 3

Banned
DDgPbSJXkAEkIB4


http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...e-movement-brexit_uk_57e3e201e4b0db20a6e8b057
From Last September

Wanker.
 
K

King_Moc

Banned
You never know, maybe this will allow Corbyn to call back some of the talent he lost from the front bench last year, as plenty of them will have warmed to him now.
 
H

Hazzuh

Member
Speaking of Corbyn demanding loyalty, just remembered this great interview Vice did with McDonnell and Corbyn before the 2015 election:


[...]
According to McDonnell, this has the backing of a bloc of "30 to 40 MP's." The demands are there to set the debate, he explained, "but it will ultimately come down to what people are willing to vote for." Could this be a threat to Mliliband?

"I think what we're trying to say to the Labour front bench is, 'don't ignore the left – we're here'. When it comes down to certain issues, if this a Government thinking it's going to implement austerity, with our support, they've got another thing coming," said McDonnell.

McDonnell is hopeful of a small Labour majority, and with the numbers they say are on board, they could fuck things up for a Miliband government that pursued austerity – refusing to vote for their policies, effectively meaning Miliband wouldn't have a majority. That could potentially bring down their leader – it's quite a threat.

"It's not a threat", according to McDonnell, "it's a statement of fact."
Click to expand...
 
T

theaface

Member
The Friendly Monster said:
Going to have to go against the GAF wisdom here. As much as I want Labour to succeed in taking down the Tories, they did have their cake and eat it with regards to Brexit at the recent general election. I'm happy to see all of the MPs have to plant their flags wrt the single market. I believe that being a single market member is the best case for the UK and for the EU, and am happy that the bill was brought forward and that my Labour MP, Daniel Zeichner, voted for it.
Click to expand...

I agree. I don't get why Labour didn't back the motion. It was going to fail anyway, so why not oppose on a matter of principle, fiscal responsibility and to be able to say 'I told you so' down the line?

And don't give me the 'Labour voters voted Leave...' stuff. As far as I'm concerned the only thing anyone voted for was in/out the EU. Half the country wouldn't have had a scooby what the single market was last year, much less whether or not they wanted to be in it. This revisionist history on the EU referendum has become a joke. No one voted to leave the single market because it wasn't on the sodding ballot paper. Any statements to the contrary are purely speculative opinion.
 
H

Huw_Dawson

Member
Labour's rebels (Luciana Berger acted as teller for Aye in the vote):

Rushanara Ali (Labour - Bethnal Green and Bow)
Mr Adrian Bailey (Labour (Co-op) - West Bromwich West)
Luciana Berger (Labour (Co-op) - Liverpool, Wavertree)
Mr Ben Bradshaw (Labour - Exeter)
Chris Bryant (Labour - Rhondda)
Ms Karen Buck (Labour - Westminster North)
Ruth Cadbury (Labour - Brentford and Isleworth)
Ann Clwyd (Labour - Cynon Valley)
Ann Coffey (Labour - Stockport)
Neil Coyle (Labour - Bermondsey and Old Southwark)
Stella Creasy (Labour (Co-op) - Walthamstow)
Emma Dent Coad (Labour - Kensington)
Stephen Doughty (Labour (Co-op) - Cardiff South and Penarth)
Maria Eagle (Labour - Garston and Halewood)
Mrs Louise Ellman (Labour (Co-op) - Liverpool, Riverside)
Paul Farrelly (Labour - Newcastle-under-Lyme)
Mike Gapes (Labour (Co-op) - Ilford South)
Kate Green (Labour - Stretford and Urmston)
John Grogan (Labour - Keighley)
Helen Hayes (Labour - Dulwich and West Norwood)
Meg Hillier (Labour (Co-op) - Hackney South and Shoreditch)
Dame Margaret Hodge (Labour - Barking)
Dr Rupa Huq (Labour - Ealing Central and Acton)
Darren Jones (Labour - Bristol North West)
Susan Elan Jones (Labour - Clwyd South)
Peter Kyle (Labour - Hove)
Mr David Lammy (Labour - Tottenham)
Mr Chris Leslie (Labour (Co-op) - Nottingham East)
Kerry McCarthy (Labour - Bristol East)
Alison McGovern (Labour - Wirral South)
Catherine McKinnell (Labour - Newcastle upon Tyne North)
Mrs Madeleine Moon (Labour - Bridgend)
Ian Murray (Labour - Edinburgh South)
Albert Owen (Labour - Ynys Môn)
Jess Phillips (Labour - Birmingham, Yardley)
Mr Virendra Sharma (Labour - Ealing, Southall)
Mr Barry Sheerman (Labour (Co-op) - Huddersfield)
Mr Gavin Shuker (Labour (Co-op) - Luton South)
Tulip Siddiq (Labour - Hampstead and Kilburn)
Andy Slaughter (Labour - Hammersmith)
Jo Stevens (Labour - Cardiff Central)
Wes Streeting (Labour - Ilford North)
Gareth Thomas (Labour (Co-op) - Harrow West)
Stephen Timms (Labour - East Ham)
Chuka Umunna (Labour - Streatham)
Keith Vaz (Labour - Leicester East)
Catherine West (Labour - Hornsey and Wood Green)
John Woodcock (Labour (Co-op) - Barrow and Furness)
Daniel Zeichner (Labour - Cambridge)
 
T

TrueBlue

Member
From my admittedly limited perspective, I'm not seeing a massive problem. Umunna put forward the amendment and a group of MPs defied the whip. Now resignations and sackings are happening on the frontbench - isn't that just standard procedure?

I dunno. Maybe it's because I'm open to the idea of staying in the single market if possible.

EDIT: It's unfortunate due to a lack of unity, but I don't think it's a bad position to take either - even if Umunna is being opportunistic in some respects. Ah well.
 
J

jelly

Member
The thing that worries me about Labour, are they fence sitting to hover up as many voters as possible by not planting their flag but want to stay in the single market etc. or do they really want a hard Brexit but just won't say it.
 
A

Azzanadra

Member
theaface said:
I agree. I don't get why Labour didn't back the motion. It was going to fail anyway, so why not oppose on a matter of principle, fiscal responsibility and to be able to say 'I told you so' down the line?

And don't give me the 'Labour voters voted Leave...' stuff. As far as I'm concerned the only thing anyone voted for was in/out the EU. Half the country wouldn't have had a scooby what the single market was last year, much less whether or not they wanted to be in it. This revisionist history on the EU referendum has become a joke. No one voted to leave the single market because it wasn't on the sodding ballot paper. Any statements to the contrary are purely speculative opinion.
Click to expand...

Correct me if I'm wrong g here, but if the only thing at stake was principle here, wouldn't it be better to not back the motion and vote down the Tory queen speech altogether? After all labour's point is that the Tories are fundamentally incapable of government, so this motion passing through would actually legitimize the Tory government to some extent, saying "if you do this one thing we trust you to govern the country".
If this ammendment passed labour MPs would vote for the speech, no? And that would be a disaster to the narrative of the Tories sucking and being bad for the country if the opposition's MPs even voted for the speech.
 
Z

Zaph

Member
Jackpot said:
It's weird to see Gaffers calling someone a dickhead and wishing he'd fall in line and obey for trying to keep the UK in the single market. Imagine, daring to take a stand.
Click to expand...

It was never going to happen and all this could accomplish is more termoil within Labour which will dominate the headlines and give Tories more ammunition against them.

Umunna is a twat who's learned nothing and could barely even give Corbyn any credit after the surprising election results.

The Friendly Monster said:
Going to have to go against the GAF wisdom here. As much as I want Labour to succeed in taking down the Tories, they did have their cake and eat it with regards to Brexit at the recent general election. I'm happy to see all of the MPs have to plant their flags wrt the single market. I believe that being a single market member is the best case for the UK and for the EU, and am happy that the bill was brought forward and that my Labour MP, Daniel Zeichner, voted for it.
Click to expand...
Any other time I would agree with you, but after two years of PLP bullshit, it's time to take some inspiration from the Tories and fall in line for the sake of the party.
 
U

Uzzy

Member
TrueBlue said:
From my admittedly limited perspective, I'm not seeing a massive problem. Umunna put forward the amendment and a group of MPs defied the whip. Now resignations and sackings are happening on the frontbench - isn't that just standard procedure?

I dunno. Maybe it's because I'm open to the idea of staying in the single market if possible.
Click to expand...

Because instead of the news reporting on how the Tories are only in power by bribing the DUP while refusing to increase nurses wages, the news will now be reporting on the chaos in the Labour party and Corbyn's inability to control his party.
 
D

D4Danger

Unconfirmed Member
Jackpot said:
It's weird to see Gaffers calling someone a dickhead and wishing he'd fall in line and obey for trying to keep the UK in the single market. Imagine, daring to take a stand.
Click to expand...

because it wasn't about the single market or taking a stand it was designed to undermine the Labour leadership. Nothing else.

it's no secret that a lot of people don't like Corbyn but even they can see the forest through the trees now. Chuka thinks he's slick but he's not.
 
T

TrueBlue

Member
Uzzy said:
Because instead of the news reporting on how the Tories are only in power by bribing the DUP while refusing to increase nurses wages, the news will now be reporting on the chaos in the Labour party and Corbyn's inability to control his party.
Click to expand...

I made an edit referencing the unity aspect, and yeah, that is very frustrating. Particularly post election.
 
G

Ghost

Chili Con Carnage!
Zaph said:
It was never going to happen and all this could accomplish is more termoil within Labour which will dominate the headlines and give Tories more ammunition against them.

Umunna is a twat who could barely even give Corbyn any credit after the surprising election results.
Click to expand...

Exactly, this is nothing to do with the EU, this is just the list of MPs who still want Corbyn gone...they've learned exactly nothing from the election.
 
H

Huw_Dawson

Member
"This has nothing to do with the EU, it's just all the nasty Blairites!"

David Lammy is a Blairite?

I know Labour folks will try and spin this, but there's not really much of a clearer example of how Brexit-friendly the Labour Party are now than this, surely?
 
B

Billy_Pilgrim

Member
Jeremy Corbyn has been a brexiter for as long as he's been involved in politics, why anyone is remotely surprised by any of this is a mystery.

There will come a point in the not too distant future when people will regret en masse that Corbyn was the one who was at the helm when brexit came to pass.
 
K

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
So practically UK government's stance towards a hard Brexit was reinforced/re-legitimated today in the Parliament through the vote on this amendment, is this correct?
 
A

Azzanadra

Member
Huw_Dawson said:
I agree, all those Labour MPs that defied Corbyn should quit the party.

We'd love to have them.
Click to expand...

You know I'm Canadian, and if there's one thing I know about parliamentary elections is that your average bloke doesn't actually know who the local MP is, nor do they really care... they are voting for the party/leader.

When I campaigned for the Liberals in my riding, no one knew who Navdeep Bains was. But they knew who Justin Trudeau was and they knew vague details about the federal platform (legal weed!!!!!). Basically where I am going with this is that in most cases, labour-turned lib dem MPs would most likely still lose their ridings to labour.
 
H

Huw_Dawson

Member
I'm stereotyping the argument, don't mind me.

Somehow I don't think David "seize the homes of the rich" Lammy is someone who is intrinsically anti-Corbyn.

Azzanadra said:
You know I'm Canadian, and if there's one thing I know about parliamentary elections is that your average bloke doesn't actually know who the local MP is, nor do they really care... they are voting for the party/leader.

When I campaigned for the Liberals in my riding, no one knew who Navdeep Bains was. But they knew who Justin Trudeau was and they knew vague details about the federal platform (legal weed!!!!!). Basically where I am going with this is that in most cases, labour-turned lib dem MPs would most likely still lose their ridings to labour.
Click to expand...

That's true - which is why it's good we're getting a well-known old hand as our next leader.
 
T

The Friendly Monster

Member
Huw_Dawson said:
One of the Labour shadow ministers who was sacked was Catherine West, a close Corbyn ally. (A former Islington cllr apparently)
Click to expand...
Her constituency was the highest Remain share in the country apparently. It's bullshit to suggest this is just a list of MPs who want Corbyn out, it's representative democracy in action.

edit: actually it seems Umunna's constituency of Streatham was the highest Remain vote, slimy and opportunist he may be, but in this case he is representing his constituents.
 
B

Billy_Pilgrim

Member
TimmmV said:
Unfortunately the country pretty much is now

It really sucks, but thats the reality of the situation
Click to expand...

Didn't have to be that way, this comes from the top down. Where was Corbyn whipping up all those youngsters at rallies during Brexit campaigns? Doing 11-3 shifts and claiming time off in lieu for interviews.
 
D

Doctor_Thomas

Member
TimmmV said:
Unfortunately the country pretty much is now

It really sucks, but thats the reality of the situation
Click to expand...

That's not true at all.

People weren't voting for Labour based on their Brexit stance, but on the idea of it being a way to reduce the Tories hard Brexit.

Fact is, Corbyn is a good anti-Tory, but he's wanting out of the EU for purely socialist reasons which I just cannot get on board with.

Ultimate result is the two main UK parties are taking us down that Brexit route, which doesn't represent what the majority want.
 
T

TimmmV

Member
Billy_Pilgrim said:
Didn't have to be that way, this comes from the top down. Where was Corbyn whipping up all those youngsters at rallies during Brexit campaigns? Doing 11-3 shifts and claiming time off in lieu for interviews.
Click to expand...

All that achieves is that Labour get to be slightly less wrong in the pages of history than the Tories do, but risk losing public support from the majority that now seem to favour losing freedom of movement

If brexit is happening, then I would rather Labour are at least in charge of the fallout of it, then the Tories taking us to a full US style capitalist hellhole. Umna playing politics about it just serves to make that reality more likely

Doctor_Thomas said:
That's not true at all.

People weren't voting for Labour based on their Brexit stance, but on the idea of it being a way to reduce the Tories hard Brexit.
Click to expand...

People voted Labour for all sorts of reasons. If it was just Brexit then the Lib Dems would have gotten more support

Doctor_Thomas said:
Fact is, Corbyn is a good anti-Tory, but he's wanting out of the EU for purely socialist reasons which I just cannot get on board with.

Ultimate result is the two main UK parties are taking us down that Brexit route, which doesn't represent what the majority want.
Click to expand...

I agree with both of these points, but would add that the majority accept that Brexit will happen, and that the end of freedom of movement appears to be the main thing people want

We are in this mess because of the absolute mess of the referendum even being held and then also Labour being split as a party by FPTP
 
G

GrizzleBoy

Banned
Billy_Pilgrim said:
Chukka put as much work into remain as anyone. St Jeremy is the one who actively sabotaged remain.
Click to expand...

So after his party spent every waking moment trashing Corbyns popularity and public confidence, they're upset he wasn't able to be influential enough during brexit vote ¬_¬

I think people forget just how much of a shitstorm the labour party created for itself before June 8th this year.

It really wouldn't have made a jot of difference anyway.
 
Audioboxer

Audioboxer

Member
Ultimately this on-going Labour drama with the party pulling in different ways is why I abandoned voting for them and changed over to SNP. For everything I like about Corbyn he has been an utterly useless remain candidate (yeah yeah I know he's "secretly" pro-leave), and the single market stuff is a mess.
 
H

Huw_Dawson

Member
The Friendly Monster said:
Stop this, you attacked me saying I voted for a hard brexit, my MP voted for the amendment today. Your party propped up the twats that gave us the Brexit referendum in the first place.
Click to expand...

Your MP gets a pass! Same as Neil Coyle, who I campaigned to unseat in the last GE.

(And point of order, my lot were part of no government that gave the country Brexit - it was only after the public kicked us out).
 
O

OverBlood 3

Banned
Billy_Pilgrim said:
Chukka put as much work into remain as anyone. St Jeremy is the one who actively sabotaged remain.
Click to expand...

Chuka cares about one thing and that's becoming leader, it was evident right up to the point where he cancelled the function room for his quietly shelved leadership bid. Apparently Corbyn saving the party hasn't dissuaded him too much.

Saying Corbyn actively sabotaged remain is completely wrong, he campaigned just as hard as anyone, the one difference is he refused to share a platform with other parties he wanted to make a Labour Party case which he did and he toured the country on that platform but would he ever get the coverage the official campaigns did, no effing way. The message at the time was 'Corbyn is not fit to do his job' and people fell for it and people discredited everything he ever did.

This part isn't aimed at you this is just a general point:

It's also unfair to say 'young people' didn't understand his stance on Brexit, they're much smarter than your average voter, they actually read stuff.
 
A

Azzanadra

Member
Billy_Pilgrim said:
Didn't have to be that way, this comes from the top down. Where was Corbyn whipping up all those youngsters at rallies during Brexit campaigns? Doing 11-3 shifts and claiming time off in lieu for interviews.
Click to expand...

I don't think he wanted Brexit, he was just ambivalent towards it and saw no reason to put in effort to stop it when it seemed like (at the time) the remain vote would win anyways and he has always been a euroskeptic in general (being a euroskeptic does not mean being pro-brexit). For him it was probably a question of principles, why bother campaigning for remain when Cameron and the boys are doing it anyways and you have in general been a critic of the EU anyways? Its like those people who didn't particularly like Clinton (but preferred her to Trump) yet stayed home because they thought Clinton would win anyways because of the polls.
 
T

The Friendly Monster

Member
Huw_Dawson said:
Your MP gets a pass! Same as Neil Coyle, who I campaigned to unseat in the last GE.

(And point of order, my lot were part of no government that gave the country Brexit - it was only after the public kicked us out).
Click to expand...
I didn't say it was the Lib Dems who gave us the Brexit referendum, I said they propped up the same twats who did. This is not an invitation to talk about 2010 again by the way.
 
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