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UK PoliGAF thread of tell me about the rabbits again, Dave.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/feb/16/tories-up-six-points-latest-icm-opinion-poll

Tories lead by 4 points (Con 36, Lab 32, LD 10, UKIP 9, Green 7) in the latest Guardian/ICM (the gold standard pollster of the last three election cycles). Probably an outlier, but Lord Aschroft's polls which use a similar methodology have come up with similar Tory leads recently so it might not be and ICM have been proved right time and again with their spiral of silence adjustments.
 

pulsemyne

Member
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/feb/16/tories-up-six-points-latest-icm-opinion-poll

Tories lead by 4 points (Con 36, Lab 32, LD 10, UKIP 9, Green 7) in the latest Guardian/ICM (the gold standard pollster of the last three election cycles). Probably an outlier, but Lord Aschroft's polls which use a similar methodology have come up with similar Tory leads recently so it might not be and ICM have been proved right time and again with their spiral of silence adjustments.

Yeah it's a bad poll. Everyone else is either neck and neck or marginal labour lead.
 

Jezbollah

Member
I don't think he's aged that badly in the 12 years after.

What next I wonder? Footage of Farage talking about the economy in his punk days?
 

8bit

Knows the Score
enhanced-9977-1398769530-5.jpg
 

Nicktendo86

Member
Ed Balls clearly stuck to his policy of always getting receipts. Aherm.

Ed Balls among 12 shadow cabinet members who claimed expenses without receipts http://t.co/SqDzBD7PX5 http://t.co/xe5RFmhKek

Edit: oh this is priceless

But there was more embarrassment for Mr Balls as it emerged that he had made basic errors in adding up one of his claims and had filled in his expenses forms incorrectly for months.

In March 2007 he claimed a total of £1,182.14 in expenses for his second home, though the actual total for the items claimed was £100 more.

For eight consecutive months in 2005 and 2006 Mr Balls filled in his expenses forms wrongly, putting each figure one line above where it should have been. It meant that in June 2006 his £70 cleaning bill was not paid because he had entered it under “telephone” and the following month an exasperated official wrote a note on his form saying: “Rang member & asked to fill in form correctly!”

He also submitted that claim twice, and tried to claim £1,298.17 for his mortgage, instead of the £733 he had been claiming until then, resulting in the difference being slashed from his reimbursement.
 

Jezbollah

Member
As opposed the sterling conduct of the Government bench when it came to expenses. We never did figure out why the taxpayer was paying for Gideon's horse paddock, did we?

That reminds me - was there ever an official table of the MPs and the amount they were forced to pay back after the expenses scandals?
 
How nice is it that the young people will now have to clean up the graffiti that my generation did all over towns just to keep getting their youth allowance? Cheers chaps.
 
As opposed the sterling conduct of the Government bench when it came to expenses. We never did figure out why the taxpayer was paying for Gideon's horse paddock, did we?

Again the issue isn't the expenses claims, but the hypocrisy of Balls going on about getting receipts for trade jobs and tax avoidance/VAT evasion and then not practising what he preaches.

It doesn't bother me at all that Ed Balls didn't get a few receipts here and there, what bothers me is that he claims to be whiter than white and proceeds to lecture the rest of the country when in reality he is just as bad as the rest of us. Hypocrisy.
 

kmag

Member
Again the issue isn't the expenses claims, but the hypocrisy of Balls going on about getting receipts for trade jobs and tax avoidance/VAT evasion and then not practising what he preaches.

It doesn't bother me at all that Ed Balls didn't get a few receipts here and there, what bothers me is that he claims to be whiter than white and proceeds to lecture the rest of the country when in reality he is just as bad as the rest of us. Hypocrisy.

And the hypocrisy of Gideon?
 
And the hypocrisy of Gideon?

What hypocrisy? He has been very aggressive in clamping down on corporate tax avoidance but hardly done anything on the personal level (hence personal service arrangements being left virtually untouched). I also haven't heard him blather on about how people should get receipts for all transactions either. Also, it is hard to take you seriously when you use Gideon instead of George. It is an almost universal turn off from real discussion.
 

Nicktendo86

Member
It is the hypocrisy that gets me about Balls, the Daily Mail has tracked down his window cleaner of 12 years as well who claims to have never given Balls a receipt, nor been asked to produce one. Tabloid tittle tattle yes but you can't make such a ridiculous statement as he did and not expect to be called out.

Slightly shocked that thousands of pounds are paid without receipts though. My firm has a heart attack if you try to claim for 60p worth of milk without a receipt.
 

kmag

Member
What hypocrisy? He has been very aggressive in clamping down on corporate tax avoidance but hardly done anything on the personal level (hence personal service arrangements being left virtually untouched). I also haven't heard him blather on about how people should get receipts for all transactions either. Also, it is hard to take you seriously when you use Gideon instead of George. It is an almost universal turn off from real discussion.

Oh I must have imagined him using the term "morally repugnant" in regards to Jimmy Carr and personal tax avoidance. Admittedly at the higher end of the scale but he was still referring to personal tax avoidance not corporate.
 
Have Labour or the Conservatives made any sort of promise with regards to the number of houses they'll get built each year? Everyone knows it is a massive issue and politicians are constantly called out on it but it feels like very little is getting done.

I'd also enshrine it into law that upon the completion of a building project: Foreign investors are banned from purchasing the property (some new developments in London hold back a certain percentage of apartments to sell directly to the Chinese for example).

We've just bought our first house for 216k. 3 bedrooms. Was such a struggle to get our deposit together.

We had a 10% deposit ready before we spoke to banks and mortgage advisors. Everyone was fine with a 10% deposit apart from...HSBC who automatically assumed we had a 20% deposit. We have perfect credit ratings, reliable jobs and income (both teachers) and will have a decent amount of expendable income after expenses are taken out each month.

For a 20% deposit we'd have needed £43,200. Where on earth are the vast majority of 26 year olds going to find that on their own? I laughed my way out of that meeting.
 
Oh I must have imagined him using the term "morally repugnant" in regards to Jimmy Carr and personal tax avoidance. Admittedly at the higher end of the scale but he was still referring to personal tax avoidance not corporate.

Yes because the K2 scheme is identical to paying for stuff in cash and not getting receipts. That scheme is now considered evasion as well, HMRC beat it in court.
 
I love the way Osbourne talks about the state paying for personal care. So basically he is saying "dodge the fuck out of paying tax and mooch off other tax payers who can't dodge paying taxes".

Meanwhile today good ole Cameron all but criminalises being unemployed. If 18-21 year olds haven't found a job within 6 months they will be forced to do 30 hours community service per week or lose their benefits.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...o-do-community-work-under-tories-says-cameron
 

Nicktendo86

Member
So labour jobs guarantee (paid for by pie in the sky bankers bonus tax that they have 'spent' about 10 times now) = good, Tories plan = evil? They both amount to pretty much the same thing, do nothing for six months and you lose your benefits. The tone is different of course.
 
So labour jobs guarantee (paid for by pie in the sky bankers bonus tax that they have 'spent' about 10 times now) = good, Tories plan = evil? They both amount to pretty much the same thing, do nothing for six months and you lose your benefits. The tone is different of course.

Erm no Labours plan = a job at minimum wage which I don't have a problem with. The Tory plan is COMMUNITY SERVICE in other words the unemployed working 30 hours a week for their benefits which works out at £1.50 per hour that I do have a problem with because it isn't too far off bloody slavery.
 
Erm no Labours plan = a job at minimum wage which I don't have a problem with. The Tory plan is COMMUNITY SERVICE in other words the unemployed working 30 hours a week for their benefits which works out at £1.50 per hour that I do have a problem with because it isn't too far off bloody slavery.

I don't think it should be quite so many hours but I do think the plan is decent in principle. One of the main aims seems to be wanting to instil a working mentality into claimants. It'll hopefully change a lot of young people's minds from 'I'll just claim benefits my whole life' to 'Well if I am going to work, I want to work for a decent amount of money'.

Now, this plan will only work if there are actually jobs for those young people to go into.

The slavery comment is unhelpful and carries emotional weight with it. Remember, these people have not lifted a finger in work for six months and are in effect getting something for nothing. At least they'll be doing something for their something.

How would you tackle the problem? Just to be clear, I don't have a side. I don't even know if I am going to vote as I don't feel represented.

My girlfriend got one of those tax breakdowns when they were issued. 66% of her tax went on benefits. She was irate.
 
I don't think it should be quite so many hours but I do think the plan is decent in principle. One of the main aims seems to be wanting to instil a working mentality into claimants. It'll hopefully change a lot of young people's minds from 'I'll just claim benefits my whole life' to 'Well if I am going to work, I want to work for a decent amount of money'.

Where are all these people going "hey a life on benefits is wonderful" ? that is nothing but bullshit put about to demonize the unemployed and keep up the narrative that the unemployed are scrounders, leechers and mooching off the poor beleaguered tax payer (but hey if you dodge taxes you can mooch off the taxpayer with no problem according to ole Ozzy).

The slavery comment is unhelpful and carries emotional weight with it. Remember, these people have not lifted a finger in work for six months and are in effect getting something for nothing. At least they'll be doing something for their something.

No the slavery comment isn't unhelpful or "emotive" it is an ACCURATE description of what the Tories want to do. They want to force people to do work for as little as £1.50 per hour (probably less if you consider the unemployed will have to pay for their own transport to the work camp). It is slavery, a cheap source of labour that is what the Tories are after, they are not interested in "training" the young into getting a work ethic they are interested in creating a huge source of forced cheap labour.

Oh and how do you know they haven't lifted a finger in 6 months to find a job ? Jobs are hard to find, in some areas you have 20 -30 people chasing ONE job. But lets ignore that and just go with the "all unemployed are feckless and lazy".


How would you tackle the problem? Just to be clear, I don't have a side. I don't even know if I am going to vote as I don't feel represented.
Hm how would I tackle the problem, well first off I would change the culture of the job centre to one that actually HELPS people find work rather than just being a mechanism for sanctioning people. I would remove all this "do this or you lose your benefits" shit. I would scrap workfare because I believe workfare actually reduces the number of low skilled jobs available to people and I would offer people the chance after 6 - 12 months of unemployment the option of a job/training paid at the minimum wage.

In short a fuck more carrot and a lot less bloody stick. The vast majority of the unemployed DO NOT want to be unemployed, they want a job, they want all the nice things everyone working has. They just need help to get work and obviously the work to actually exist would help too.
 
Where are all these people going "hey a life on benefits is wonderful" ? that is nothing but bullshit put about to demonize the unemployed and keep up the narrative that the unemployed are scrounders, leechers and mooching off the poor beleaguered tax payer (but hey if you dodge taxes you can mooch off the taxpayer with no problem according to ole Ozzy).

I come into contact with them approximately 8:40 each morning and about 3pm every afternoon. I also teach an eight year old girl whose life ambition is to do what her mum does. Her mum claims every benefit possible and seems entirely comfortable. They don't think living off benefits is wonderful. They are just content. They do the bare minimum to get what they want.

No the slavery comment isn't unhelpful or "emotive" it is an ACCURATE description of what the Tories want to do. They want to force people to do work for as little as £1.50 per hour (probably less if you consider the unemployed will have to pay for their own transport to the work camp). It is slavery, a cheap source of labour that is what the Tories are after, they are not interested in "training" the young into getting a work ethic they are interested in creating a huge source of forced cheap labour.

Got any evidence to back any of that up? The labour party want me to work until 6PM now for cheap childcare. I already am a babysitter to a lot of parents. I have 30 kids on my own in a room most of them don't want to be in.

Oh and how do you know they haven't lifted a finger in 6 months to find a job ? Jobs are hard to find, in some areas you have 20 -30 people chasing ONE job. But lets ignore that and just go with the "all unemployed are feckless and lazy".

How do you know that they have lifted a finger? They haven't done any work for 6 months so I think it is entirely reasonable that they do something. Like I said, I don't think that 30 hours per week is realistic as we will still have to afford those claimants the time to actually look for work, attend interviews etc. I am much more in favour of 20 hours per week. 4 hours Monday to Friday.

In any case, finding a job doesn't count as work. They will only be put into this service if they HAVEN'T WORKED for six months without interruption.

Hm how would I tackle the problem, well first off I would change the culture of the job centre to one that actually HELPS people find work rather than just being a mechanism for sanctioning people. I would remove all this "do this or you lose your benefits" shit. I would scrap workfare because I believe workfare actually reduces the number of low skilled jobs available to people and I would offer people the chance after 6 - 12 months of unemployment the option of a job/training paid at the minimum wage.

In short a fuck more carrot and a lot less bloody stick. The vast majority of the unemployed DO NOT want to be unemployed, they want a job, they want all the nice things everyone working has. They just need help to get work and obviously the work to actually exist would help too.

As someone who works in a carrot/stick system every hour of their working life - the stick is needed a lot more than the carrot. People are much more likely to react to a forced risk than they are to kindness/carrot. As humans we are ridiculously awful at calculating probability so the choices need to be stark. Even I work better when the stick is looming overhead. (Every day of my working life).

The unemployed are a dormant workforce. The aim is to find them work. That is in both their best interest and the nations. I don't see any reason why people shouldn't have to work a little for their handouts.
 

Lirlond

Member
Because when you have the option to join workfare and receive staff from the government at little cost to you, why hire staff in the first place? You're creating a horrible precedent here.
 
Because when you have the option to join workfare and receive staff from the government at little cost to you, why hire staff in the first place? You're creating a horrible precedent here.

Companies shouldn't be allowed to do it. I'll give you that.

I am only in favour of this if it is actual community service. Litter, cutting back trees, local building projects (that don't require specialist skills), graffiti, libraries, canvassing local people on how they think their council should spend money etc. A great deal can be done like this and it actually serves the community and not the pockets of a large company.

Those types of things don't require Wilkinsons, Tescos etc to stop hiring people.
 

Lirlond

Member
They stop the public sector/council though, if you're going to give people jobs that exist as job(Park ranger, street cleaner) then just give them the job and pay them. All community service exists as a job someone is paid at least minimum wage to do.
 
They stop the public sector/council though, if you're going to give people jobs that exist as job(Park ranger, street cleaner) then just give them the job and pay them. All community service exists as a job someone is paid at least minimum wage to do.

You won't need 100+ fulltime staff at all times to clear the sides of A roads. The benefit of having a larger workforce is so that larger projects can get done quickly. Want to rejuvenate a plot of land for allotments? This scheme would allow everyone to benefit. The claimants are working for their money, the community benefits and the council benefits.

Those rangers/street cleaners you mentioned are on a full-time contract and could do it for years. The people who would be doing the community service work would be viewed as temporary people. The community service jobs in these numbers wouldn't exist without this potential scheme. If I were in charge I'd make it so that the current council staff have immunity from cuts when these schemes come into effect. We don't want unemployed people taking jobs away from employed people.

I really don't have a problem with it in general. There are a few kinks to iron out but in principle I see it as a good idea.

Get everyone assessed health-wise and get them out contributing.

N.B The councils are fucked. They are threatening to close all of our local libraries. If they can't afford to run the libraries then heck knows what else they can't afford to do. They've even started turning off traffic lights on major roundabouts.

In that scenario I don't see them hiring anyone for these kinds of jobs going forward anyway unfortunately.
 

Nicktendo86

Member
Where are all these people going "hey a life on benefits is wonderful" ? that is nothing but bullshit put about to demonize the unemployed and keep up the narrative that the unemployed are scrounders, leechers and mooching off the poor beleaguered tax payer (but hey if you dodge taxes you can mooch off the taxpayer with no problem according to ole Ozzy).
I am ashamed to admit that I was one of them, after leaving college I was more than happy to be a lazy sod and just collect JSA for almost year doing fuck all for it. Looking back I wish I had done something in that time as when I finally pulled my finger out potential employers all asked what I was doing in the time I was unemployed. Sometimes you need a bit if a kick, and a helping hand.

Let's be honest, 30 hours a week won't kill them. I think the language and tone is off to be honest, it should have more emphasis on help rather than a punishment which is how the guardian for example like to portray it.

It isn't slavery, that is just ridiculous and, frankly, insulting.
 
I come into contact with them approximately 8:40 each morning and about 3pm every afternoon. I also teach an eight year old girl whose life ambition is to do what her mum does. Her mum claims every benefit possible and seems entirely comfortable. They don't think living off benefits is wonderful. They are just content. They do the bare minimum to get what they want.

Ah you must be a teacher, in that case I am going to do what you have done. I experienced a couple of horrible teachers in my time so I am just going to assume all teachers are horrible then. I am not denying there are workshy, there will always be workshy. However they are in a MINORITY, sure there will be areas where they are concentrated which gives the appearance there are a lot of them but the vast majority that are unemployed are there through no fault of their own and doing their best to find a job inspite of how hard the government actually makes it.

Got any evidence to back any of that up? The labour party want me to work until 6PM now for cheap childcare. I already am a babysitter to a lot of parents. I have 30 kids on my own in a room most of them don't want to be in.
Well if you don't like it have you considered becoming unemployed ? you seem to be under the impression it is a pretty cushy scenario all that lovely money (all 72 quid a week of it)

How do you know that they have lifted a finger? They haven't done any work for 6 months so I think it is entirely reasonable that they do something.
How do I know ? it is simple there are far more unemployed than there are vacancies. Their are 1,900,000 unemployed people in the UK. However there are only around 560,000 job vacancies available. So if we filled all those vacancies overnight we would still be left with 1,400,000 that would never find employment. The vast majority WANT to work, they don't want to exist on £72 a week. But there will NEVER be enough jobs for everyone.

Like I said, I don't think that 30 hours per week is realistic as we will still have to afford those claimants the time to actually look for work, attend interviews etc. I am much more in favour of 20 hours per week. 4 hours Monday to Friday.

That isn't what the Tories are offering though. This isn't a negotiation here the Tory policy is to force 18 - 21 year olds to do at least 30 hours a week community service AND a further 10 hours a week searching for a job. This works out at a wage of £1.90 per hour even less when you consider they will have to pay their own transportation costs to the work camps. So you obviously support this.

In any case, finding a job doesn't count as work. They will only be put into this service if they HAVEN'T WORKED for six months without interruption.

Erm no you obviously haven't been paying attention. So here is what David Cameron said :-

David Cameron said:
said about 50,000 18 to 21-year-olds would be required to do daily work experience from day one of their claim, alongside job searching.

So basically the minute they start claiming JSA they have to start doing community service. There is no "6 months no job ? well here is some training and ethic building for you". Nope it is "claiming money ? oh you must be a feckless lazy twat now give us hundreds of hours of work for next to nothing".

I am ashamed to admit that I was one of them, after leaving college I was more than happy to be a lazy sod and just collect JSA for almost year doing fuck all for it. Looking back I wish I had done something in that time as when I finally pulled my finger out potential employers all asked what I was doing in the time I was unemployed. Sometimes you need a bit if a kick, and a helping hand.

Just because you were like that doesn't mean all 18 - 21 year olds were like that. When I left school I had fuck all in the way of qualifications. I had to care for my mother and I somehow managed to get some qualifications at a college part time. I don't begrudge you for how you did things, but I don't think it is far for you to say "just cos you did it then all 18 - 21 year olds are doing it".

Let's be honest, 30 hours a week won't kill them. I think the language and tone is off to be honest, it should have more emphasis on help rather than a punishment which is how the guardian for example like to portray it.

It isn't slavery, that is just ridiculous and, frankly, insulting.

It's 30 hours of manual labour a week for the princely sum of £1.90 per hour. It is harsh, punitive and personally I think it is abhorrent and basically sends a message to the younger generation that their work and time isn't worth shit.

Yup it is a slave wage, it is akin to slavery in my books. But anyway I am kinda derailing the UK politics topic a bit so I will shut up about it now. If anyone wants to rebuttal me then no probs, but I won't reply to this issue again cos we will just go around in circles I think.
 
Ah you must be a teacher, in that case I am going to do what you have done. I experienced a couple of horrible teachers in my time so I am just going to assume all teachers are horrible then. I am not denying there are workshy, there will always be workshy. However they are in a MINORITY, sure there will be areas where they are concentrated which gives the appearance there are a lot of them but the vast majority that are unemployed are there through no fault of their own and doing their best to find a job inspite of how hard the government actually makes it.

Well if you don't like it have you considered becoming unemployed ? you seem to be under the impression it is a pretty cushy scenario all that lovely money (all 72 quid a week of it)

How do I know ? it is simple there are far more unemployed than there are vacancies. Their are 1,900,000 unemployed people in the UK. However there are only around 560,000 job vacancies available. So if we filled all those vacancies overnight we would still be left with 1,400,000 that would never find employment. The vast majority WANT to work, they don't want to exist on £72 a week. But there will NEVER be enough jobs for everyone.

That isn't what the Tories are offering though. This isn't a negotiation here the Tory policy is to force 18 - 21 year olds to do at least 30 hours a week community service AND a further 10 hours a week searching for a job. This works out at a wage of £1.90 per hour even less when you consider they will have to pay their own transportation costs to the work camps. So you obviously support this.

Erm no you obviously haven't been paying attention. So here is what David Cameron said :-

So basically the minute they start claiming JSA they have to start doing community service. There is no "6 months no job ? well here is some training and ethic building for you". Nope it is "claiming money ? oh you must be a feckless lazy twat now give us hundreds of hours of work for next to nothing".

Just because you were like that doesn't mean all 18 - 21 year olds were like that. When I left school I had fuck all in the way of qualifications. I had to care for my mother and I somehow managed to get some qualifications at a college part time. I don't begrudge you for how you did things, but I don't think it is far for you to say "just cos you did it then all 18 - 21 year olds are doing it".



It's 30 hours of manual labour a week for the princely sum of £1.90 per hour. It is harsh, punitive and personally I think it is abhorrent and basically sends a message to the younger generation that their work and time isn't worth shit.

Yup it is a slave wage, it is akin to slavery in my books. But anyway I am kinda derailing the UK politics topic a bit so I will shut up about it now. If anyone wants to rebuttal me then no probs, but I won't reply to this issue again cos we will just go around in circles I think.

Indeed we will go around in circles.

My opinion of this is all based around 'Everyone needs to contribute'. Some people are contributing and others aren't. I am against 'something for nothing'. I don't think it is slavery and I do think drastic steps do need to be taken. Sure there will always be a deficit of actual jobs for people to find, but they should be doing something and if that is helping the community then I am all for it.

____

It is a Tory policy targeted at traditional voters. Haven't seen any policies yet from any of the main parties that will do anything net-positive for young people. No wonder lots of them won't vote.
 

Empty

Member
oborne quits the daily telegraph, writing a lengthy takedown of its current culture as he goes - worth reading if you're interested as he goes into real depth.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/peter-oborne/why-i-have-resigned-from-telegraph

(it seems to have gone down, here's a cache - http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...e-resigned-from-telegraph&hl=en&gl=uk&strip=1

big argument is that they deliberately suppressed stories about hsbc as they were a prominent advertiser.

With the collapse in standards has come a most sinister development. It has long been axiomatic in quality British journalism that the advertising department and editorial should be kept rigorously apart. There is a great deal of evidence that, at the Telegraph, this distinction has collapsed.

Late last year I set to work on a story about the international banking giant HSBC. Well-known British Muslims had received letters out of the blue from HSBC informing them that their accounts had been closed. No reason was given, and it was made plain that there was no possibility of appeal. "It’s like having your water cut off," one victim told me.

When I submitted it for publication on the Telegraph website, I was at first told there would be no problem. When it was not published I made enquiries. I was fobbed off with excuses, then told there was a legal problem. When I asked the legal department, the lawyers were unaware of any difficulty. When I pushed the point, an executive took me aside and said that "there is a bit of an issue" with HSBC. Eventually I gave up in despair and offered the article to openDemocracy.

.....

That was how matters stood when, on Monday of last week, BBC Panorama ran its story about HSBC and its Swiss banking arm, alleging a wide-scale tax evasion scheme, while the Guardian and the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists published their 'HSBC files'. All newspapers realised at once that this was a major event. The FT splashed on it for two days in a row, while the Times and the Mail gave it solid coverage spread over several pages.

You needed a microscope to find the Telegraph coverage: nothing on Monday, six slim paragraphs at the bottom left of page two on Tuesday, seven paragraphs deep in the business pages on Wednesday. The Telegraph’s reporting only looked up when the story turned into claims that there might be questions about the tax affairs of people connected to the Labour party.

...
Last week I made another discovery. Three years ago the Telegraph investigations team—the same lot who carried out the superb MPs’ expenses investigation—received a tip off about accounts held with HSBC in Jersey. Essentially this investigation was similar to the Panorama investigation into the Swiss banking arm of HSBC. After three months research the Telegraph resolved to publish. Six articles on this subject can now be found online, between 8 and 15 November 2012, although three are not available to view.

Thereafter no fresh reports appeared. Reporters were ordered to destroy all emails, reports and documents related to the HSBC investigation. I have now learnt, in a remarkable departure from normal practice, that at this stage lawyers for the Barclay brothers became closely involved. When I asked the Telegraph why the Barclay brothers were involved, it declined to comment.

This was the pivotal moment. From the start of 2013 onwards stories critical of HSBC were discouraged. HSBC suspended its advertising with the Telegraph. Its account, I have been told by an extremely well informed insider, was extremely valuable. HSBC, as one former Telegraph executive told me, is “the advertiser you literally cannot afford to offend”. HSBC today refused to comment when I asked whether the bank's decision to stop advertising with the Telegraph was connected in any way with the paper's investigation into the Jersey accounts.

Winning back the HSBC advertising account became an urgent priority. It was eventually restored after approximately 12 months. Executives say that Murdoch MacLennan was determined not to allow any criticism of the international bank. “He would express concern about headlines even on minor stories,” says one former Telegraph journalist. “Anything that mentioned money-laundering was just banned, even though the bank was on a final warning from the US authorities. This interference was happening on an industrial scale.

“An editorial operation that is clearly influenced by advertising is classic appeasement. Once a very powerful body know they can exert influence they know they can come back and threaten you. It totally changes the relationship you have with them. You know that even if you are robust you won’t be supported and will be undermined.”

When I sent detailed questions to the Telegraph this afternoon about its connections with advertisers, the paper gave the following response. "Your questions are full of inaccuracies, and we do not therefore intend to respond to them. More generally, like any other business, we never comment on individual commercial relationships, but our policy is absolutely clear. We aim to provide all our commercial partners with a range of advertising solutions, but the distinction between advertising and our award-winning editorial operation has always been fundamental to our business. We utterly refute any allegation to the contrary."

The evidence suggests otherwise, and the consequences of the Telegraph’s recent soft coverage of HSBC may have been profound. Would Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs have been much more energetic in its own recent investigations into wide-scale tax avoidance, had the Telegraph continued to hold HSBC to account after its 2012 investigation? There are great issues here. They go to the heart of our democracy, and can no longer be ignored.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
I don't like Peter Obourne and I don't agree with his political positions, but I respect what he just did. That was an interesting and well-written piece.
 

kitch9

Banned
Where are all these people going "hey a life on benefits is wonderful" ? that is nothing but bullshit put about to demonize the unemployed and keep up the narrative that the unemployed are scrounders, leechers and mooching off the poor beleaguered tax payer (but hey if you dodge taxes you can mooch off the taxpayer with no problem according to ole Ozzy).



No the slavery comment isn't unhelpful or "emotive" it is an ACCURATE description of what the Tories want to do. They want to force people to do work for as little as £1.50 per hour (probably less if you consider the unemployed will have to pay for their own transport to the work camp). It is slavery, a cheap source of labour that is what the Tories are after, they are not interested in "training" the young into getting a work ethic they are interested in creating a huge source of forced cheap labour.

Oh and how do you know they haven't lifted a finger in 6 months to find a job ? Jobs are hard to find, in some areas you have 20 -30 people chasing ONE job. But lets ignore that and just go with the "all unemployed are feckless and lazy".



Hm how would I tackle the problem, well first off I would change the culture of the job centre to one that actually HELPS people find work rather than just being a mechanism for sanctioning people. I would remove all this "do this or you lose your benefits" shit. I would scrap workfare because I believe workfare actually reduces the number of low skilled jobs available to people and I would offer people the chance after 6 - 12 months of unemployment the option of a job/training paid at the minimum wage.

In short a fuck more carrot and a lot less bloody stick. The vast majority of the unemployed DO NOT want to be unemployed, they want a job, they want all the nice things everyone working has. They just need help to get work and obviously the work to actually exist would help too.

Load of old bollocks you typed there mate lol.

To be clear, the unemployed are already offered optional free training and college courses as well as our prisoners but a lot avoid it and do the bare minimum to tick the boxes for their benefits.

So, long term benefits claimants who are clearly going through the motions will be forced to work, which is a good thing as they will obtain a reference for future employers. The rest will never be forced as they aren't feckless and will either find work or seek training.

Benefits should not be a lifestyle choice.
 

Pie and Beans

Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
So, set to work on destroying the NHS and bring back Dickensian workhouses for the young.

I'd understand if the cunts had got a majority or something, but jesus christ. Conservatives need a rename to Regressionists.
 

kitch9

Banned
To be clear it's only the long term unemployed that will be pushed into this.

The ones who have priority access to training courses, colleges and employers are incentivised to take them on and for whatever reason still manage to not find work or training.
 
Hmm, are people who don't work but attend university exempt from this?

You can't claim JSA and attend a full time university course at the same time. The measures are aimed specifically at long term unemployed young people. I don't see the issue and talk of slavery is frankly insulting.
 

Nicktendo86

Member
There's a few left minded people who can't see the wood for the trees and get very hyperbolic over this subject.
Same with this bollocks about the Tories destroying the NHS. It is just nonsense and we can't have a proper debate about the future of our health service with screaming banshees sticking to the 'Cameron is selling it off to his friends' etc rubbish. I mean, Labour have outsourced more of it than the Tories have and were the first to start doing so!

The terrible state of the NHS in Wales and scandals such as Mid Staffs should show that Labour cannot be trusted with the NHS but if they keep repeating the lie that only they can be trusted with it people start to believe it. Its just rubbish.But there was more embarrassment for Mr Balls as it emerged that he had made basic errors in adding up one of his claims and had filled in his expenses forms incorrectly for months.
 
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