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[MisterFalcon]

Communists greatly exaggerated the differences between fascism and communism after the Nazis invaded the Soviet Union. When the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was signed, the official line from Moscow required all communists to view the Nazis as allies. And they did, even in the UK.

The funniest bit was communist Dalton Trumbo who wrote an anti-war novel, Johnny Got His Gun in 1938 to help keep America out of the war in Europe. When the Nazis invaded the Soviet Union war was suddenly not such a bad thing after all and he pulled his book from the shelves. When isolationists wrote him asking for copies of the book he ratted them out to the FBI.

You probably know the book from Metallica's 'One' which heavily features the 1971 movie made of the book.

 

[Guileless]

That's a great example of the degree of control Moscow exerted over smart people literally all over the world. And now an actual KGB colonel rules the country with a state-run media calling its enemies fascists, and we get people from all over the world in this thread repeating it. But we are the naive brainwashed people, eh comrades?

The more things change....

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

Communists greatly exaggerated the differences between fascism and communism after the Nazis invaded the Soviet Union. When the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was signed, the official line from Moscow required all communists to view the Nazis as allies. And they did, even in the UK.

Whatever the differences, both systems require a strong state asserting its power across all walks of life. And while there are plenty of nutty crackpot beliefs of the Tea Party, that is definitely not one of them.

The differences were always a big issue. The USSR supported the German Socialists and Communists in the era of the Spartacist Uprising and aimed their propaganda not only against the growing Fascist trend but also against "Social Fascists" and the Liberal parties that they suspected would eventually join the Nazis. They were eventually proven correct as the German Socialist Party eventually allied with and was wiped out by the Nazi party.

The USSR then went on to promote the same political line in the 30s during the Spanish Civil War, arming the Spanish Communists and supporting them against Fascist Spain and their Nazi supporters.

Stalin suspected an invasion of Eastern Europe by Germany was imminent and the Munich agreement handing Czechoslovakia over to the Germans was a big reason behind this. The USSR attempted a strong military agreement between itself, France, and the UK against Germany but it never happened due to Britain's concerns over an alliance pushing Eastern Europe states more towards Germany, politically.

The USSR was invaded by Japan and the Molotov Ribbentrop Pact was written up mainly as a way to keep Germany from joining Japan as the two had already signed an alliance against the USSR a few years prior to the Molotov Ribbentrop Pact.

Whatever the differences, both systems require a strong state asserting its power across all walks of life. And while there are plenty of nutty crackpot beliefs of the Tea Party, that is definitely not one of them.

Tea Party has no problem with a strong state asserting it's power as long as it protects their own interests. State mandated religion, sex laws, labor laws, cultural and race laws, etc. The Tea Party is largely obsessed with a fictional America of yester year, specifically the 40s and 50s, the era of Jim Crow, for example.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

That's why I said in practice.

Communism in practice is a stateless, class-less, egalitarian society where all productive property, land and resources are held in common ownership.

Whatever the differences, both systems require a strong state asserting its power across all walks of life.

Communism is stateless so good luck with that.

 

[makingmusic476]

Communism in practice is a stateless, class-less, egalitarian society where all productive property, land and resources are held in common ownership.



Communism is stateless so good luck with that.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

A classic.

 

[pulsemyne]

Joint press conference due soon. Seems incouraging.

 

[Zen]

Pretty interesting article that seems to indicate some pretty damning evidence linking Yanukovych and Russia to the Maidan killings. Not that shocking of course but maybe the people who need to see it will and start to change their tune

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...s-expose-russian-trained-killers-in-kiev.html

Over 70 gigs of video footage to back it all up too. The false flag theory was always desperate bullshit.

 

[dolemite]

Joint press conference due soon. Seems incouraging.

Lavrov and Kerry are having a talk on the fate of Ukraine. Too bad noone from Ukraine got invited.

 

[Nilaul]

http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/swiat/law...pejska-przed-zdecydowana-reakcja-moskwy/0qf8f

According to Sergey Lavrov, giving visas to Ukrainian's on Crimea is a violation against human rights.

What a douche. The world would be a better place without him.

 

[brian577]

Lavrov and Kerry are having a talk on the fate of Ukraine. Too bad noone from Ukraine got invited.

What? And let the people who's lives hinge on these talks have a say? What kind of crazy talk is that?

 

[antonz]

Russia Is demanding the same song and dance they have been for weeks. Break Ukraine up into a bunch of autonomous regions that are loosely connected and ban Ukraine from ever seeking affiliation with Europe.

 

[Epsilon-delta]

Don't know if it's been mentioned but CNN is reporting Russia has 40k troops near its border with eastern Ukraine based on satellite imagery according to two U.S. officials.

 

[pulsemyne]

Well talks ended with no solid deal but both sides offering various proposals and saying talks were constructive. That's the interesting part because what that means in diplomatic speak is "we are both prepared to fudge things". It's also worth noting that both sides stated that the ukrianian government needs to be involved in the talks. Both will now go back to their top brass back home and start seeing where each side will be flexible.
Tonights talks look like they were the start of a process and Kerry seemed to emphasis that. The EU and america will put pressure on the ukriane government to accept certain things.
So yeah there will be fudges all around and both sides will try to come out of it looking good. Pretty much as I expected.

 

[pulsemyne]

Russia Is demanding the same song and dance they have been for weeks. Break Ukraine up into a bunch of autonomous regions that are loosely connected and ban Ukraine from ever seeking affiliation with Europe.

A federation could work both ways though. The EU would have influence over the policies on the western side and the russians on the eastern side. It's an attempt to carve up the ukriane so that both sides get their say in the country. That is why the americans aren't overly opposed to the idea.

 

[benjipwns]

omg

 

[antonz]

A federation could work both ways though. The EU would have influence over the policies on the western side and the russians on the eastern side. It's an attempt to carve up the ukriane so that both sides get their say in the country. That is why the americans aren't overly opposed to the idea.

The Americans have opposed it at every offer. Russia spins it everytime and says oh the US likes what we have to say. Just like how they claim China supports them on Crimea etc. even when China says the opposite.

Russia lives in an alternate reality.

Lavrov commented that Ukraine is too difficult to be run as a single state and must federalize. Kerry responded that its not for us to decide that is up to the Ukrainians people.

Ukraine Leadership answered back well

The ultimatum and the didactic tone of these statements demonstrate that as the real aggressor Russia does not accept any control over its own behavior. Under the barrels of its machine guns, this aggressor demands only one thing — the complete capitulation of Ukraine, its dismemberment, and the destruction of Ukrainian statehood.

Russia’s proposals for federalization, a second official language, and referendums are viewed in Ukraine as nothing less than proof of Russia’s aggression. We sincerely regret that Minister S. Lavrov had to voice them.

We would like to propose to the Russian side that before issuing ultimatums to a sovereign and independent state, it turn its attention to the disastrous conditions and complete powerlessness of its own national minorities, including the Ukrainian one. Why does not Russia give substance to the federalism which, incidentally, is in its official name and which remains a meaningless, declarative concept?

Why not give additional powers to the national subjects of the federation, whose development is being suppressed today as harshly as during the tsarist and Soviet times? Why not introduce other official languages aside from Russian — languages spoken by millions of Russian citizens? Why not hold referendums on broad autonomy and, if necessary, the independence of the subjects of the Russian Federation?

 

[SymbiantXenos]

Ukraine Leadership answered back well

That's a pretty sick burn lol

 

[pulsemyne]

Do remember that what is said in public isn't what is being said behind closed doors. It's all theater.
Also rather interesting was that the senate intelligence committe seem to now think that Russia wants a diplomatic solution to this. This could very well be something that was communicated in back channels to reassure the americans that russia wants to solve this.

 

[Nilaul]

Ukraine Leadership answered back well

Ice cold

Cant wait for Russia's reply.

 

[Delta Assault]

Ice cold

Cant wait for Russia's reply.

Hopefully it won't be out of the barrel of an AK-47.

 

[empty vessel]

Lavrov and Kerry are having a talk on the fate of Ukraine. Too bad noone from Ukraine got invited.

That's about all one needs to know to properly understand at a high level of abstraction what is happening in the Ukraine.

 

[benjipwns]

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/vladimir-putin-wants-regain-finland-says-close-adviser-1442466

One of Russian President Vladimir Putin's closest ex-advisers has claimed that the ex-KGB agent ultimately wants to reclaim Finland for Russia.

Andrej Illiaronov, Putin's economic adviser between 2000 and 2005 and now senior member of the Cato Institute think tank, said that "parts of Georgia, Ukraine, Belarus, the Baltic States and Finland are states where Putin claims to have ownership."

"Putin's view is that he protects what belongs to him and his predecessors," he said.

When asked if Putin wishes to return to the Russia of the last tsar, Nicholas II, Illiaronov said: "Yes, if it becomes possible."

Illiaronov admits that Finland is not Putin's primary concern at present but, if not stopped in other areas of Eastern Europe, the issue will one day arise. Russian troops are currently massing on the eastern border of Ukraine, following Russia's recent annexation of Crimea.

"Putin said several times that the Bolsheviks and Communists made big mistakes. He could well say that the Bolsheviks in 1917 committed treason against Russian national interests by providing Finland's independence," Illiaronov told a Swedish news website.

He believes that Putin is not planning to invade Ukraine for territorial gain but rather "the goal is a pro-Russian puppet government in Kiev."

"Six years ago Putin conquered Abkhazia and South Ossetia from Georgia. The west let him do it with impunity, and now he has got Crimea," he continued.

"Now, eastern and southern Ukraine is destablised so that the self-defence forces can take power there. If the situation allows, it may be a military invasion."

 

[anonymous_abc]

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/vladimir-putin-wants-regain-finland-says-close-adviser-1442466

While the west might be uncomfortable shuffling their feet and not doing much of consequence about the Ukraine situation. I cannot for the life of me see anyone thinking they could get away with pulling the same shit on Finland. Even if they are not part of Nato they are unquestionable part of the EU and I think the line would be drawn there at the very latest....

 

[gribbles]

Communism in practice is a stateless, class-less, egalitarian society where all productive property, land and resources are held in common ownership.

Please name me one country that has successfully managed to achieve all those things. In practice.

 

[anonymous_abc]

Please name me one country that has successfully managed to achieve all those things.

None has and none will, thats the point and a great shame. Humainty is just not up for it.
Isn't communism the name of the system on the way to true socialism?

 

[Doczu]

While the west might be uncomfortable shuffling their feet and not doing much of consequence about the Ukraine situation. I cannot for the life of me see anyone thinking they could get away with pulling the same shit on Finland. Even if they are not part of Nato they are unquestionable part of the EU and I think the line would be drawn there at the very latest....

That's a lot of different lines that are/will be drawn for Russia. Seriously, it would be a lot easier if Putin just says "I want teritory X and I will do everything to get my hands on it".

 

[Lagspike_exe]

Please name me one country that has successfully managed to achieve all those things.

There isn't any. They were all totalitarian, opressive and in many cases genocidal entities serving to empower and enrich the elite that created them.

 

[anonymous_abc]

That's a lot of different lines that are/will be drawn for Russia. Seriously, it would be a lot easier if Putin just says "I want teritory X and I will do everything to get my hands on it".

It's so nice of everyone to have double standards.
Alas that is the way it has always been and will likely always be.

 

[ЯAW]

While the west might be uncomfortable shuffling their feet and not doing much of consequence about the Ukraine situation. I cannot for the life of me see anyone thinking they could get away with pulling the same shit on Finland. Even if they are not part of Nato they are unquestionable part of the EU and I think the line would be drawn there at the very latest....

Not to mention Finland has always had autonomity under Russian rule so Putin couldn't pull his protecting the Russian people crap. It would have to be full assault against Finland. Actual war. I doubt Putin would go that far for Finland.

 

[Doczu]

Not to mention Finland has always had autonomity under Russian rule so Putin couldn't pull his protecting the Russian people crap. It would have to be full assault against Finland. Actual war. I doubt Putin would go that far for Finland.

The last time Russians wanted Finland they met mr. White Death and suffered tremendous losses. I wonder if history would repeat itself?

 

[Hypnotoad]

I know it is hip to demonize Putin, but as much as people shouldn't trust what they read on RT, the same is true of anti-Russian propaganda. Invading Finland? Seriously, people are to easy to believe anything about Evil Empire 2.0 nowadays. Russia is a pretty stable and predictable state actor, and while taking Crimea is certainly hard to justify and certainly out of the ordinary - because redrawing national borders with a swift action was thought to be a thing of the past - it is not the start of a new cold war or the action of a mad men. The EU knows that, the US knows it as well, and they will live with it.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

The last time Russians wanted Finland they met mr. White Death and suffered tremendous losses. I wonder if history would repeat itself?

The Red Army was in disarray during 1939/1940 because it had not recovered from Stalin's purges and was still only part way through its modernization. It's not a set of circumstances likely to repeat.

 

[anonymous_abc]

I know it is hip to demonize Putin, but as much as people shouldn't trust what they read on RT, the same is true of anti-Russian propaganda. Invading Finland? Seriously, people are to easy to believe anything about Evil Empire 2.0 nowadays. Russia is a pretty stable and predictable state actor, and while taking Crimea is certainly hard to justify and certainly out of the ordinary - because redrawing national borders with a swift action was thought to be a thing of the past - it is not the start of a new cold war or the action of a mad men. The EU knows that, the US knows it as well, and they will live with it.

Does not compute. So you stopping just short of saying what Russia is doing in Crimea is wrong yet think demonising the person responsible is not right?

 

[Hypnotoad]

Does not compute. So you stopping just short of saying what Russia is doing in Crimea is wrong yet think demonising the person responsible is not right?

Yes, demonizing doesn't really help. Because Putin actually is not some kind of demon. Russia is a rational country that can be engaged with, and that is what should be done. Rhetorics aside, they will not try military conquest outside their zone of influence, which for the moment, like it or not, exists. Stirring up anti-russian sentiment with imaginary war scemes is easy and works well, but it helps neither the western european countries, nor the Ukraine.

 

[alstein]

I'd argue Ukraine is outside Russia's zone of influence now- the people there (minus Crimea) want nothing to do with Russia anymore. I don't think they'll accept being neutral, I expect a lot of Russian dissidents will end up in Ukraine over the next several years.

 

[FreedomFighter]

Nah, Ukraine is definitely in Russia's sphere of influence, especially the east who want nothing to do with those SAPs and even Yats is worried about that.

And you all need to chill, Russia is not invading Ukraine. Surprised y'all aren't seeing through this bs.

 

[Enkidu]

And you all need to chill, Russia is not invading Ukraine. Surprised y'all aren't seeing through this bs.

They already did invade and annex part of Ukraine. From what I saw, most people said they wouldn't invade before that, and yet they still did. So this time, people are obviously a lot more skeptical about trusting Russia to respect Ukraine's remaining borders.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

Please name me one country that has successfully managed to achieve all those things. In practice.

 

[pulsemyne]

Ukraine is now reporting that russian troops on the border have started a gradual pull back and are returning to bases. This appears to have been a goodwill gesture after the phone call two days ago and the talks yesterday. Looks like we may have a diplomatic solution to this after all. Obviously it will now be a time for hard bargaining on both sides.
This whole thing seems to have been a classic old russian diplomatic play. Bring the situation to a point and then begin talking and deescalation.

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

I'd argue Ukraine is outside Russia's zone of influence now- the people there (minus Crimea) want nothing to do with Russia anymore. I don't think they'll accept being neutral, I expect a lot of Russian dissidents will end up in Ukraine over the next several years.

Ukraine is within it's sphere, for sure. Ukraine "proper" has only existed for 20 years or so. Putin thinking Finland is within Russia's grasp is stupidly funny though.

Isn't communism the name of the system on the way to true socialism?

Socialism is the stepping stone to Communism. No country under a Communist party would actually say that their system is Communism. You may be familiar with the phrase "building Socialism" that was used in Eastern Europe.

One of the big issues between socialist parties in the early 1900's was what the form of government would be that would bring us between Capitalism and Communism. The Bolshevik solution between the two was the "Dictatorship of the Proletariat". Others were basically Socialist dominated parliamentarism.

 

[SymbiantXenos]

Some better news.

Russian forces seem to be withdrawing from the eastern border. Down to around 10'000. According to Ukraine Defense Ministry.

 

[Tripon]

Looks like this crisis is just about over...

 

[Nivash]

They already did invade and annex part of Ukraine. From what I saw, most people said they wouldn't invade before that, and yet they still did. So this time, people are obviously a lot more skeptical about trusting Russia to respect Ukraine's remaining borders.

Yeah, I'm one of those people. I was completely convinced Russia wouldn't do something this stupid. I remember even arguing for it rather heavily in the Ukrainian protest thread and I had a hard time believing it even as Russian forces took that airport. Not making that mistake again, Russia is acting like it's the 19th century and that's what I'm basing future predictions on. Crimea is their version of Iraq - blinded by ideology, condemned by the world, based on utterly false premises. Except unlike the US they aren't getting a quagmire bad enough to force them to reevaluate.

I'm Swedish. If I was dictator of Sweden I'd join NATO tomorrow, double the defense budget (which would at least be a start, our current readiness is a joke - we would probably have to quadruple it to make a true difference), re-introduce conscription and buy enough Patriot batteries to blanket the country with SAM/ABM capability. The Cold War is back on as far as I'm concerned.

Which sucks. I kinda like Russia. Just not so much the leadership and the current nationalistic fervor.

 

[FrozenCell]

I'm Swedish. If I was dictator of Sweden I'd join NATO tomorrow, double the defense budget (which would at least be a start, our current readiness is a joke - we would probably have to quadruple it to make a true difference), re-introduce conscription and buy enough Patriot batteries to blanket the country with SAM/ABM capability. The Cold War is back on as far as I'm concerned.

Which sucks. I kinda like Russia. Just not so much the leadership and the current nationalistic fervor.

How do swedes feel about NATO today? There have been quite a few incidents lately testing your sexy Gripens.

 

[Nivash]

How do swedes feel about NATO today? There have been quite a few incidents lately testing your sexy Gripens.

About the same as they have for the last 15 years or longer: 30-35 % are for a membership and between 40 och 50 % are against with the rest undecided. You'd think the Ukraine Crisis would push Swedes towards NATO but nope, the "against" faction actually rose to the largest level since Kosovo either because Swedes prefer the status quo during a crisis (which is stupid considering the status quo leaves us defenseless) or they think that Sweden could somehow remain neutral if this had escalated to a war between NATO and Russia (which we couldn't, Russia needs control of the Baltic and access to the Atlantic through Skagerrak). Not that Russia has ever considered us neutral in any case.

There's no reason anymore for us to remain "neutral". There was a case to be made for it during the cold war because the Warzaw pact held half or more of the Baltic coast. Sweden and Finland being on good terms even as Finland was by necessity semi-aligned with the USSR and Sweden was a member-in-all-but-name of NATO reduced tensions in the region. But that's not needed anymore. With the exception of Kaliningrad and the St. Petersburg region, the Baltic is EU territory. Also, Norway and Denmark have been members for decades with no ill effects. They haven't been dragged into any wars they didn't want to join.

Our political leadership, thankfully, appears to have a better grasp of the situation and support of both re-armament and potential membership appears to have grown during the crisis. With just a bit of luck Sweden might finally get dragged, kicking or screaming if need be, into NATO after the next election. But I wouldn't count on either of those things sadly. We'll remain a strategic vacuum for the time being.

 

[Bolivar]

It will be interesting to see how this all turns out. If the quality of living in Crimea greatly increases due to Russian integration will people still condemn this move as morally wrong?

These people largly wanted to join Russia. If it's because they envision a better future with Russia they should have that choice.

I don't agree with how Russia went about annexing Crimea. However that fact that without their actions Crimea may still be part of a country they don't want to be a part of is what justifies Russia's actions to some degree.

 

[Aylinato]

It will be interesting to see how this all turns out. If the quality of living in Crimea greatly increases due to Russian integration will people still condemn this move as morally wrong?

These people largly wanted to join Russia. If it's because they envision a better future with Russia they should have that choice.

I don't agree with how Russia went about annexing Crimea. However that fact that without their actions Crimea may still be part of a country they don't want to be a part of is what justifies Russia's actions to some degree.

So now they are part of a country that 42% or more don't want to be a part of ...

....


...
...

...

 

[pulsemyne]

Some better news.

Russian forces seem to be withdrawing from the eastern border. Down to around 10'000. According to Ukraine Defense Ministry.

Putin phoned Merkel just now to say he is ordering a partial withdrawl of troops. This seems to have been a result of last nights talks. They'll probably leave about 20,000 there just to keep pressure on Ukraine but it will help settle the situation.
Hooray for diplomacy? Maybe. Let's hope so.

 

[Resident_UA]

It will be interesting to see how this all turns out. If the quality of living in Crimea greatly increases due to Russian integration will people still condemn this move as morally wrong?

These people largly wanted to join Russia. If it's because they envision a better future with Russia they should have that choice.

I don't agree with how Russia went about annexing Crimea. However that fact that without their actions Crimea may still be part of a country they don't want to be a part of is what justifies Russia's actions to some degree.

As somebody who despises Russia now I can accept your sentiment. The only issue is that it's not that simple. It's not like Russia does not have any problems. For example social protections for recent mothers is much better in Ukraine. And although Russian economy is larger it is heavily concentrated in 2 cities. If Crimea joined Japan for example you could imagine some immediate economic benefits. If there are benefits in Crimea, they will be very minor. And all the people that are against joining (lets be conservative and say 30%) are fucked now.