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Ukrainian Conflict - Donetsk Boogaloo

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No it didn't. You cannot even quantify it either. Most of the protests were limited to western Ukraine, especially Kiev. Saying that this "revolution" had the support of the whole country is just projection and disingenuous. I know it's hard to think of, but face it, a large and substantial portion of Ukraine is Pro-Russian, and wouldn't mind closer ties to Moscow again. Whether these are older folks who remember Soviet times, people who are Russian, speak Russian is irrelevant. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Yanukovych has any kind of legitimate support in Ukraine anymore. I think when all is said and done, he'll go down as one of the worst and most hated Ukrainians of all time in that country.

A big problem with all of this is the Russian entry into Crimea. The biggest motivator for a nation is the entry of foreign troops onto it's soil. So now people who didn't support the Euromaidan protests, don't like EU/US will be anti-Russian immediately.

You did say something correct in that a lot of "Russians" and Russian speaking citizens want to stay in Ukraine. Even countries like Georgia, Estonia, Latvia have significant Russian populations who have no real desire to move back or join again.

I guess I should have used the word "majority". You are right. I was just pushing back on craziness that EV was expressing. And you are wrong about "Most of the protests were limited to western Ukraine, especially Kiev". Kiev is central Ukraine. Predominantly Russian speaking. This sentence doesn't even make sense :)
 
Yes, but unlike you I actually read news from different sources. Would you be happy if your country was invaded by the neighbor? Where do you live?

No need to be passive-aggresive all the time. I was just asking a question. A loaded one maybe, but still.

Well I'm from Denmark if that's important.

The fact still stands that a sizable chunk of Ukrains population want to be Russian. You try to underplay it but it's the truth. And this attempt to underplay really hurt your credibility and implied objectivity about this matter in this thread.
 
I agree that it is unlikely there is a majority support for separatism even in the east. I have not suggested there was nor that I support separatism, so it's a red herring. However, it is obviously not proper to infer that those who do not support separatism do support the installed Kiev government. There are many people in the east (including ethnic Russians) who want to remain part of Ukraine but who are very unhappy with what went down and who as a consequence want more autonomy. It is hard for me to find fault with their view in light of the entire situation.
 
No need to be passive-aggresive all the time. I was just asking a question. A loaded one maybe, but still.

Well I'm from Denmark if that's important.

The fact still stands that a sizable chunk of Ukrains population want to be Russian. You try to underplay it but it's the truth. And this attempt to underplay really hurt your credibility and implied objectivity about this matter in this thread.

That's absolutely not true! There's no single poll showing this. Even in Donetsk only 19% would agree to join Russia.

Where did you read this?
 
It's on.

"@AP: BREAKING: Heavy gunfire heard at airport in eastern Ukraine after troops move against pro-Russia militia"
 
I agree that it is unlikely there is a majority support for separatism even in the east. I have not suggested there was nor that I support separatism, so it's a red herring. However, it is obviously not proper to infer that those who do not support separatism do support the installed Kiev government. There are many people in the east (including ethnic Russians) who want to remain part of Ukraine but who are very unhappy with what went down and who as a consequence want more autonomy. It is hard for me to find fault with their view in light of the entire situation.

That's not the same. I would 100% support separatists if they weren't actually separatists. Their demands are actually exactly the same as the demand of people in Kiev. I don't even understand why you are saying this...

In fact even people in the west don't necessarily support the government. What are you trying to say?! I really need to stop reading your posts...
 
In a democracy, political majorities and minorities are measured by periodic elections. Those who lose and become the opposition are the political minority. This is true even if the government becomes (or specific people within the government become) unpopular, at least until the next election is held to determine who the political majority is. Even if a de facto political majority builds in the interim, it is not given automatic right to rule but must wait until the next election. These conventions of democratic governance were broken by the then-opposition in Ukraine, and that is the root of this conflict.

This is awfully poor analysis, because it assumes that Ukraine was a functional democracy prior to this point. Yanukovych had been stacking the Ukrainian supreme court with his own people, and had then used them to overturn a 2004 order restricting the powers of the president instituted in the aftermath of the Orange Revolution. He was in the process of making the president selected by a parliamentary vote rather than a general election, to ensure that he could secure a second term while his party retained a majority rather than having to subject himself to elections in 2015. In response to the initial wave of protests, he passed a series of anti-protest and -dissent laws (dubbed 'the Dictatorship Laws) on the 16th January. None of these factors indicate that he intended to fight an election on a fair and open basis that would allow for the democratic procedure to hold true.

However, even if that wasn't the case, and he had genuinely intended to fight a fair election (unlikely), your line of analysis still seems highly questionable. You're effectively arguing that no matter how bad the policies or desires of a democratically elected government are, once they're elected, that's that: they now have free reign to do entirely as they wish for however long their electoral term is. Apparently, it would have been immoral to topple, among others; the German government after July 1932 given they won a free and fair election. This is, for obvious reasons, a somewhat difficult decision to defend. The right to office is not contingent purely on having had a slightly larger number of people prefer you to anyone else some period of time ago; particularly the office of head of state. There are other duties you have to uphold. At the point you begin killing your own people, you've breached one of those duties and they have a legitimate reason to seek your immediate exit.

I have no reason to trust the author of that opinion piece as far as the "facts" conveyed, but what is remarkable to me about pieces like this is the extreme lack of any insight that they display, although this may well be intentional in this case as it is a clear advocacy piece. People of all countries are conditioned much the same way. The idea that only Russian people are indoctrinated is absurd if given even a second's thought, but, apparently, a second's thought is even too much to ask. It's funny, because the author cites as a result of Russian indoctrination that "83 percent believe that there was coup d'etat in Ukraine in February." Objectively, that is more accurate than what most Westerners believe. Of course, both beliefs probably are products of indoctrination. I have little doubt that most Russians are indoctrinated. I have little doubt that most Ukrainians are indoctrinated. And I have little doubt that most Americans and Europeans are indoctrinated. Talking about this as a phenomenon applicable only to Russians is a reason to apply skepticism to the whole piece and the author.

"[a] coup consists of the infiltration of a small, but critical, segment of the state apparatus, which is then used to displace the government from its control of the remainder." The Euromaidan protesters are neither a) a segment of the state apparatus, b) a particularly small section of Ukrainian opinion. By the very definition of what a coup is, this was not a coup; unless you classify literally every revolution in history as a coup; which is to bastardize the word to the point it becomes meaningless.

Even ignoring this, your point is now a huge case of whataboutery. The author is not talking about this piece as though it were solely applicable to Russian people without context. The author is talking about it because the context of this situation is that many Russian people feel the Russian annexation of Ukraine is acceptable. Even if it is true that many people in America and Europe are misled, at least haven't been misled to the point they find it acceptable for their respective nation-states to literally annex the territory of another nation with the intent of permanently incorporating it.
 
whataboutery.

Liberals need to give this word a rest.

"Whataboutery" is morally relative, a fallacy, and history doesn't occur in a vacuum.



at least haven't been misled to the point they find it acceptable for their respective nation-states to literally annex the territory of another nation with the intent of permanently incorporating it.

What's the difference between a country ruled by a complete pawn of Russia and Russia administering that region itself?

Nothing.



ed

It is a coup until Ukraine holds elections.
 
Leave it guys... I gave up trying to speak with Russians about Ukraine' POV, its like hitting a brick wall "butbutbut nazis, coup, terror, CIA, gayrope, Russia_reborn!, ukraineisnotacountry". Even highly educated people have been successfully brainwashed and honestly believe they know more about situation in Ukraine than Ukrainians. But if you try to speak about Putin they would immediately counter with "what the hell you hohol could possibly know about VVP!" This constant paradox between "do not meddle with our internal affairs!" and "ukraine should change its constitution to make it easier for us to get its land" was breaking my brain, so I just gave up and do not speak with russians about the situation anymore and change topics as fast as I could.

We know what it is about, and the government is finally making some good moves, like appointing legendary special forces general Krutov as the head of antiterror operation. We'll see, but I do not think we'll have Crimea2, unless Russia does move army in, getting itself long term war. We just need to accept that we got semi-crazy dictator state at our border that would love to capture our land and we need to act accordingly - defend borders, protect our citizens, getting international support. Slava Ukraini!
 
Liberals need to give this word a rest.

"Whataboutery" is morally relative, a fallacy, and history doesn't occur in a vacuum.

If you don't know the definition of morally relative or fallacy, please don't use either phrase. In this scenario, there are two actors with conflicting goals. Only one of these goals can be achieved. The goals of one of these actors has particularly bad consequences. When challenged, their response is "on some other, non-related scenario, the other actor has a goal with bad consequences, therefore on this scenario, you can't possibly have a preference between one goal or the other". This is a massive fallacy; the fact in some other scenario one actor has done or desires to do bad things has no relevance to the comparative in this scenario. Specific to what we're talking about, the fact that America uses puppet dictators in the Middle East, which is bad, yes, does not impact whether the West (which incidentally is distinct from America anyway) or Russia's goals are worse for Ukraine. It's also not morally relative because pointing out someone is using whataboutery makes no moral claim, it simply points out they are appealing to entirely irrelevant data.

What's the difference between a country ruled by a complete pawn of Russia and Russia administering that region itself?

Nothing.

Congratulations, you've demonstrated your exceptionally poor understanding of how international relations, states and political units actually work.
 
Liberals need to give this word a rest.

"Whataboutery" is morally relative, a fallacy, and history doesn't occur in a vacuum.





What's the difference between a country ruled by a complete pawn of Russia and Russia administering that region itself?

Nothing.



ed

It is a coup until Ukraine holds elections.

So why doesn't russia give them time then? Oh sorry that's just too sensible.
 
Its pretty fucking hilarious that there's multiple people telling the one person from Ukraine that they know more about the country and how their people are feeling about this.

Like, have some perspective on this issue.
 
If you don't know the definition of morally relative or fallacy, please don't use either phrase.

Mmmm. Getting up on that high horse.

Again, since you don't seem to understand the basic concept: History doesn't exist in a vacuum.

To boil it down in simple terms:

Billy Bob the Wife Beater up the street doesn't get to make up and enforce rules against familial abuse when Bobby Bill the Child Beater gets caught. Whining about how they're not exactly the same thing is a fallacy.

Regime change for one country's personal gain can't be parsed down to figuring out which one method is better if you're actually against regime change.

If Russia didn't absorb Crimea and merely left it with a puppet government and de facto independence, how is that suddenly any better than what Russia actually did do?




Congratulations, you've demonstrated your exceptionally poor understanding of how international relations, states and political units actually work.

I have a perfectly fine understanding of international relations. I understand completely that many of the people who have (legitimate) complaints with Russia's behavior have absolutely no qualms with regime change when it, in turn, benefits their team.

Many of the same people who (rightfully) called out Yanukovich and Russia for the civilian political deaths during the protests will have no problem with civilian political deaths in the Ukrainian crack down in the east. These people only wear a facade of humanism when it fits their own political agenda. Crying "whataboutism" whenever the stakes are the same for the civilians involved is, essentially, ignoring similar people caught in a similar political crisis because they don't benefit you.

It's the typical Neo Lib anti social world view.



What should Ukraine do about the fact that Russia is against elections in May?

My question is, what is preventing Ukraine's election time table and is war with Russia anyway to ensure democratic elections?


So why doesn't russia give them time then? Oh sorry that's just too sensible.

Has Russia threatened invading if Ukraine keeps it's time table?
 
Looks like the airport has been captured. No reports so far of casualties. Apparently this was a military airport as well. Seems like a good show of force may have done the trick. Lets hope this remains quiet.
 
My question is, what is preventing Ukraine's election time table and is war with Russia anyway to ensure democratic elections?




Has Russia threatened invading if Ukraine keeps it's time table?

Did Ukraine choose to get invaded by Russia? War with Russia here seems to be the only way to ensure democratic elections, and Ukraine isn't the one who made it that way.

Ukraine committing total suicide.

Letting Putin just take everything he wants would be committing suicide. They didn't want to have a war. The defending side rarely does.
 
Did Ukraine choose to get invaded by Russia? War with Russia here seems to be the only way to ensure democratic elections, and Ukraine isn't the one who made it that way.

I agree 100% with your point, but war will delay elections, and losing the war, which is a massive possibility, will be the de facto end of democratic Ukraine.

Now, for the whataboutists. If Ukraine goes to war with Russia and is over run, would you oppose Russia only if they annex Ukraine entirely or would you pack up, go home, and call it a day if they were to merely install a puppet regime?
 
I agree 100% with your point, but war will delay elections, and losing the war, which is a massive possibility, will be the de facto end of democratic Ukraine.

Now, for the whataboutists. If Ukraine goes to war with Russia and is over run, would you oppose Russia only if they annex Ukraine entirely or would you pack up, go home, and call it a day if they were to merely install a puppet regime?

Massive possibility?

10000% guarantee.
 
Mmmm. Getting up on that high horse.

Again, since you don't seem to understand the basic concept: History doesn't exist in a vacuum.

To boil it down in simple terms:

Billy Bob the Wife Beater up the street doesn't get to make up and enforce rules against familial abuse when Bobby Bill the Child Beater gets caught. Whining about how they're not exactly the same thing is a fallacy.

I mean... no. It just isn't. By the very definition of what a fallacy is, this is not a fallacy. As long as they are at least somewhat different, then they have different consequences. As long as this is true, we will almost certainly be able to find one set of consequences preferable to the other. Even your analogy, as terrible as it actually is, corroborates this. If there is literally no choice than to have either Billy Bob or Bobby Bill determine family law, if it has to be at least one of them, then we have no choice but to examine them incredibly closely and determine which will produce the least bad outcome.

Regime change for one country's personal gain can't be parsed down to figuring out which one method is better if you're actually against regime change.

At the point where a regime change is inevitable, though, being 'against regime change' means fuck all.

I have a perfectly fine understanding of international relations. I understand completely that many of the people who have (legitimate) complaints with Russia's behavior have absolutely no qualms with regime change when it, in turn, benefits their team.

Possibly. I'm not one of them; I consider the invasion of Iraq, for instance, morally intolerable. Regardless, the fact these people exist doesn't change the fact that from the perspective of Ukraine, then economic integration by the West (which, really from Ukraine's perspective, is more Europe than America anyway) is preferable to territorial annexation by Russia.

Many of the same people who (rightfully) called out Yanukovich and Russia for the civilian political deaths during the protests will have no problem with civilian political deaths in the Ukrainian crack down in the east. These people only wear a facade of humanism when it fits their own political agenda. Crying "whataboutism" whenever the stakes are the same for the civilians involved is, essentially, ignoring similar people caught in a similar political crisis because they don't benefit you.

Possibly. Again, I'm not one of them. Where deaths can be avoided, they absolutely must be avoided. Regardless, both of your arguments are entirely irrelevant as answers to the question of "From this moment, given we can't change the past, is it preferable for eastern Ukraine to be annexed by Russia or not?", and are really just same vague polemic about the evil scary neoliberal boogeymen.

It's the typical Neo Lib anti social world view.

If only I were a neoliberal.
 
My question is, what is preventing Ukraine's election time table and is war with Russia anyway to ensure democratic elections?
It takes time to hold an election. It's not something done on a whim. Even when snap elections are called in well establish democracies like the UK it takes weeks and weeks to get going. You cannot just say "Yeah lets have one on friday".
If the ukrainians had their way then everything would be quiet up until may but Russia is the one destabalising things. They are doing it to ensure they have a strong bargaining position during Thursdays talks. It's a pretty simple tactic. Bully someone until you get your way. Everyone does it, it's just that Russia does do it in a subtle manner. They fail to realise in this day and age of the internet that people can see through the lies of all governments. Hell you move a bloody truck somewhere these days and someone with a mobile phone has snapped a picture of it and uploaded it to Twitter.
 
Isn't the interim Ukrainian government made up of the same parliament that was elected in the last elections (except for those that fled)? I don't see how they're illegitimate at all.
 
Some people ITT sound like Tankies who forgot the USSR doesn't exist anymore.

Be from the West and sound like a Russian chauvinist, brehs.

Do everything you can to muddy discussion and condemnation of Russian irredentism and instead turn the topic to ragging on the Great Satan then make pronouncements about how ~whataboutism~ doesn't exist, brehs.
 

I have no problem with the Ukrainian right to self determination. I have problems with people who want the US to get involved because the US has no moral right to involve itself when it comes to a nations individual right and any action by the US in that regard should be deeply suspect.

"Whataboutism" doesn't anul past US participation in bloody regime change or prevent US responsibility for future consequences.
 
Isn't the interim Ukrainian government made up of the same parliament that was elected in the last elections (except for those that fled)? I don't see how they're illegitimate at all.

They're illegitimate in the sense they didn't follow strict constitutional procedure for installing a new government. To impeach a president three quarters of the Verkhovna Rada (Ukrainian parliament) have to vote in favour of an impeachment motion, which is then ushered before the Supreme Court. If the Supreme Court also votes in favour, the president is removed from office and the prime minister temporarily installed in his place. The impeachment motion Ukraine actually passed only 328 MPs, and was thus just short of the 338 margin required for three quarters, and they voted for direct impeachment, by-passing the Supreme Court. They also did not install the prime minister as acting authority but instead the parliamentary speaker. In fairness to both of those second statements, Yanukovych had stacked the Supreme Court with his own candidates to the point he was functionally impossible to impeach, and the prime minister had fled the country and thus would have been rather difficult to making acting authority anyway.
 
They're illegitimate in the sense they didn't follow strict constitutional procedure for installing a new government. To impeach a president three quarters of the Verkhovna Rada (Ukrainian parliament) have to vote in favour of an impeachment motion, which is then ushered before the Supreme Court. If the Supreme Court also votes in favour, the president is removed from office and the prime minister temporarily installed in his place. The impeachment motion Ukraine actually passed only 328 MPs, and was thus just short of the 338 margin required for three quarters, and they voted for direct impeachment, by-passing the Supreme Court. They also did not install the prime minister as acting authority but instead the parliamentary speaker. In fairness to both of those second statements, Yanukovych had stacked the Supreme Court with his own candidates to the point he was functionally impossible to impeach, and the prime minister had fled the country and thus would have been rather difficult to making acting authority anyway.

Yanukovych also ran the fuck away in the middle of the night. He effectively resigned his post.
 
Yanukovych also ran the fuck away in the middle of the night. He effectively resigned his post.

Effectively, but not legally, which is what empty vessel and Zuhzuhzombie!! are clinging to.
 
CHEEZMO™;108255693 said:
Some people ITT sound like Tankies who forgot the USSR doesn't exist anymore.

Be from the West and sound like a Russian chauvinist, brehs.

Do everything you can to muddy discussion and condemnation of Russian irredentism and instead turn the topic to ragging on the Great Satan then make pronouncements about how ~whataboutism~ doesn't exist, brehs.

Yah, I sometimes feel like there's this horribly misguided russophilia in leftist circles. It's not based on cool stuff like people, culture or food, but on some kind of toxic need to lionize the traditional foil to Western political status quo, be they good or not. Putin is horrible for Russia is hurting his own people.
 
The fundamental underpinning of government authority is the people's assention to it. Politics 101.

Interesting to see how this law is being exhibited and how national and international politics are interacting in this conflict.
 
I don't mean this to be flippant but this old dog has learned some new words today. I have never heard of Tankies or Whataboutism before, but researching them was interesting.

In regards to Ukraine, I just hope this resolves with as little bloodshed as possible. Unfortunately Russia seems to be pushing this to the point that Ukraine has no choice left but to defend itself from foreign occupation.
 
This is awfully poor analysis, because it assumes that Ukraine was a functional democracy prior to this point. Yanukovych had been stacking the Ukrainian supreme court with his own people, and had then used them to overturn a 2004 order restricting the powers of the president instituted in the aftermath of the Orange Revolution. He was in the process of making the president selected by a parliamentary vote rather than a general election, to ensure that he could secure a second term while his party retained a majority rather than having to subject himself to elections in 2015. In response to the initial wave of protests, he passed a series of anti-protest and -dissent laws (dubbed 'the Dictatorship Laws) on the 16th January. None of these factors indicate that he intended to fight an election on a fair and open basis that would allow for the democratic procedure to hold true.

To justify overthrow of a democratic government, you are correct that one has to prove that it is effectively no longer a democracy (not just a flawed democracy), and to a high degree of confidence. I'm afraid neither you nor the then-Ukrainian opposition has met that burden. The best evidence that that burden is met is by overwhelming popular consensus. That doesn't exist in Ukraine, as evidenced by the internal conflict. That is not to say that Ukraine was not a flawed democracy, or even that there was an overwhelming popular consensus that it was a flawed democracy. It absolutely was. But (1) believing the democracy is flawed and needs reform and (2) believing the democracy is flawed and should be overthrown are two different beliefs. It is the latter that must be justified here. Most democracies are flawed, and this is what makes your argument, cavalierly put forward, potentially quite dangerous. I do not want putative political minorities deciding for the whole country when a government is no longer legitimately democratic.

However, even if that wasn't the case, and he had genuinely intended to fight a fair election (unlikely), your line of analysis still seems highly questionable. You're effectively arguing that no matter how bad the policies or desires of a democratically elected government are, once they're elected, that's that: they now have free reign to do entirely as they wish for however long their electoral term is. Apparently, it would have been immoral to topple, among others; the German government after July 1932 given they won a free and fair election. This is, for obvious reasons, a somewhat difficult decision to defend. The right to office is not contingent purely on having had a slightly larger number of people prefer you to anyone else some period of time ago; particularly the office of head of state. There are other duties you have to uphold. At the point you begin killing your own people, you've breached one of those duties and they have a legitimate reason to seek your immediate exit.

First, democratic governments are justified in using force against violent provocations. You (wrongly) assume that the government was facing only peaceful protest. This is not to say that there were no peaceful protests, nor even that the government did not use violence against peaceful protests, but you cannot so easily gloss over a democratic government's prerogative to maintain order in the face of threats of violence. Protesting to demand the resignation of an elected official is completely acceptable. Violent rebellion against a democratic government is not, at least in the absence of overwhelming popular consensus. The irony is that I doubt you are given much pause about the installed, unelected Ukrainian government using force against Ukrainians in the east. This is in fact far more difficult to justify than the Yanukovych government using force. Second, this is once again a dangerous argument. Most people do not want their lives upheaved by conflict, but you propose that a political minority can and should take it upon themselves to decide when a democratic government has crossed a line. To be sure, there are lines, but the best evidence that a line has been crossed will be overwhelming popular consensus. In the absence of such consensus, there will be conflict (which is what we have now).
 
Its pretty fucking hilarious that there's multiple people telling the one person from Ukraine that they know more about the country and how their people are feeling about this.

Like, have some perspective on this issue.

I think he's Ukrainian, but he's not currently in Ukraine. What does that have to do with anything, and who exactly are you referring to? Additionally, you don't think anyone in Ukraine/Ukrainian might have a different view on this as compared to people outside of the country? Not to say that they aren't the first people who should be allowed to speak on this because it is their country. But the rest of us, removed from such places, and read/dissect a variety of news sources can share our views. In the end, I have no real stake in what happens. I just would ultimately like no ground war, no killing of innocents or even soldiers. There should be no deaths from this, but it doesn't seem likely.
 
Mods, can we create a thread about the actual news? This thread has devolved into arguments between the same 5 or 6 people over stupid things unrelated to the actual events of the story.

Here is an actual update: Ukraine has launched an offensive in eastern Ukraine and has retaken the airfield at Kramatorsk (as mentioned before), a few Russian agents were killed in the action. In addition, ground forces are staging outside of Slovyansk.

https://twitter.com/ChristopherJM/status/456090450873438208

https://twitter.com/myroslavapetsa/status/456064167045513216

https://twitter.com/MaximEristavi/status/456024520537952256

BlRCq9bIUAAfEGm.jpg


Air patrols in eastern Ukraine:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gm9jYwP6DZs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGAc-avJBh0
 
Mods, can we create a thread about the actual news? This thread has devolved into arguments between the same 5 or 6 people over stupid things unrelated to the actual events of the story.

Here is an actual update: Ukraine has launched an offensive in eastern Ukraine and has retaken the airfield at Kramatorsk, a few Russian agents were killed in the action. In addition, ground forces are staging outside of Slovyansk.

You can create said thread, and probably should in this case.
 
I think he's Ukrainian, but he's not currently in Ukraine. What does that have to do with anything, and who exactly are you referring to? Additionally, you don't think anyone in Ukraine/Ukrainian might have a different view on this as compared to people outside of the country? Not to say that they aren't the first people who should be allowed to speak on this because it is their country. But the rest of us, removed from such places, and read/dissect a variety of news sources can share our views. In the end, I have no real stake in what happens. I just would ultimately like no ground war, no killing of innocents or even soldiers. There should be no deaths from this, but it doesn't seem likely.

If you want me to name names, Zuhzuhzombie!! and Empty_Vessel specifically. And its okay to have a different view, but you should question that view point if it directly contradicts somebody who is living in the country and experiencing it directly.

But I also made an assumption that he's currently in Ukraine and if not, changes my opinion slightly. But still, its a bit gauche to say his viewpoints on this shouldn't weigh more on this matter than it does yours. Of course it does, its his country and no matter how much research you have done in this small time, its less than what he actually experienced living in Ukraine, even if he's currently living there at the moment.

Leaving a capital city that's being overrun by opposition isn't effectively abandoning post. Governing in absentia is a fairly regarded political process.

If you think that happened, I got a Brooklyn Bridge in Arizona to sell to you.
 
I think he's Ukrainian, but he's not currently in Ukraine. What does that have to do with anything, and who exactly are you referring to? Additionally, you don't think anyone in Ukraine/Ukrainian might have a different view on this as compared to people outside of the country? Not to say that they aren't the first people who should be allowed to speak on this because it is their country. But the rest of us, removed from such places, and read/dissect a variety of news sources can share our views. In the end, I have no real stake in what happens. I just would ultimately like no ground war, no killing of innocents or even soldiers. There should be no deaths from this, but it doesn't seem likely.

So what's this thread about?

Option 1: This is about conflict inside Ukraine. If so, I do not see why the views of people who are not Ukrainian should matter unless there's human rights abuse (which currently there's absolutely no evidence of)

Option 2: This is an international conflict. By definition of international conflict you can assume that other countries are involved. If so all the idiotic conversations about "fascism" and "Nazism" are stupid. Labeling political parties is mostly about internal politics. In this case even separatism is sort of an internal problem that Ukraine has to deal with and should not have much to do with the discussion at hand. This thread should be about all the players involved, about their tactics and economy. The discussions about "fascism" and "separatism" is as relevant as discussions about "fascism" and "separatism" in Russia. Where those also exist, but for some reason are not discussed.

EDIT: Also you didn't even know that Kiev is a central Ukraine, so you shouldn't be talking about Ukrainian politics. Maybe international if you feel like it...
 
Leaving a capital city that's being overrun by opposition isn't effectively abandoning post. Governing in absentia is a fairly regarded political process.

Let's imagine that there are huge protests in Russia. Would you imagine that Putin ran to China if the Kremlin was taken over?! Hew would never leave. How can YOU defend Yanukovich for being a traitor? Even some separatists don't like him.
 
Let's imagine that there are huge protests in Russia. Would you imagine that Putin ran to China if the Kremlin was taken over?! He would never leave. How can YOU defend Yanukovich for being a traitor? Even some separatists don't like him.

Not defending him?

If DC were to erupt in massive protests Obama would leave it for security purposes.
 
But I also made an assumption that he's currently in Ukraine and if not, changes my opinion slightly. But still, its a bit gauche to say his viewpoints on this shouldn't weigh more on this matter than it does yours. Of course it does, its his country and no matter how much research you have done in this small time, its less than what he actually experienced living in Ukraine, even if he's currently living there at the moment.

Yeah I'm currently in the states. But that's where my job is... I'm in Ukraine every year or so and plan to have wedding there at the end of the summer. My soon to be wife is Ukrainian. I constantly talk to my friends who are currently in Ukraine, watch Ukrainian news, read blogs, even some Russian propaganda etc...
 
If you want me to name names, Zuhzuhzombie!! and Empty_Vessel specifically. And its okay to have a different view, but you should question that view point if it directly contradicts somebody who is living in the country and experiencing it directly.

But I also made an assumption that he's currently in Ukraine and if not, changes my opinion slightly. But still, its a bit gauche to say his viewpoints on this shouldn't weigh more on this matter than it does yours. Of course it does, its his country and no matter how much research you have done in this small time, its less than what he actually experienced living in Ukraine, even if he's currently living there at the moment.

This the off-topic section of a primarily games-focused website. The thread is about the conflict in Ukraine and how it has evolved from a protest against the government into a sort of civil war/invasion by a foreign power. I never said anyone's views didn't matter. If you re-read my post, you'll see I mentioned that people in Ukraine would be the first to respond, seeing as how it is their country.

Additionally, what's the point of discussion at all then, if we're going to discredit others solely on the basis that they are not directly involved? Because someone lived in Ukraine or is of Ukrainian nationality/descent means what exactly? Does this mean in every thread, we should go, hey you're not American, you're European, you're not qualified to speak agonist them etc.

EDIT: Also you didn't even know that Kiev is a central Ukraine, so you shouldn't be talking about Ukrainian politics. Maybe international if you feel like it...
I didn't respond to your post because I said what's the point. You clearly didn't read what I was getting at. You're overly argumentative and disingenuous. Of course Kiev is "centrally" located in Ukraine, but it's considered "western" in the sense that I was getting at. And you knew this, but you wanted to argue for the sake of it because you couldn't disagree with anything else in that post. You disagree with everyone who criticizes Ukraine even a little bit and get overly defensive. I mentioned once that Ukraine has a lot of work to do, corruption, human right issues, and rather than just agree, you said look at Poland, they're not any better. So you're right, I guess I will leave it here. I'll wait for whatever new thread is made, and we can discuss exactly what is happening and move on from all of this.
 
To justify overthrow of a democratic government, you are correct that one has to prove that it is effectively no longer a democracy (not just a flawed democracy), and to a high degree of confidence. I'm afraid neither you nor the then-Ukrainian opposition has met that burden. The best evidence that that burden is met is by overwhelming popular consensus. That doesn't exist in Ukraine, as evidenced by the internal conflict. That is not to say that Ukraine was not a flawed democracy, or even that there was an overwhelming popular consensus that it was a flawed democracy. It absolutely was. But (1) believing the democracy is flawed and needs reform and (2) believing the democracy is flawed and should be overthrown are two different beliefs. It is the latter that must be justified here. Most democracies are flawed, and this is what makes your argument, cavalierly put forward, potentially quite dangerous. I do not want putative political minorities deciding for the whole country when a government is no longer legitimately democratic.

There's a number of issues, here. The first is that the popular consensus was, by late December, in favour of the Euromaidan movement. Of those who chose to express an opinion, 56% were in favour. [1] The second is that you keep falling back on this phrase "putative political minority". You gave a definition of putative political minority earlier, which I've quoted here:

I said putative political minority, which it must be, because there were no elections declaring them a political majority.

So, your argument runs "a democracy can only be legitimately overthrown by a political majority. A political majority is not a true political majority unless it was declared so by an election, otherwise is is a putative political minority". The trouble with this is that if a group can meet the barrier you require to become a political majority, it has already won an election and thus presumably no longer needs a revolution. This runs entirely counter to your agreement that democracies should be able to be overthrown, if not in this specific circumstance.

I suggest this is because you realise you have no other way to legitimize your argument, because you have realized there is no way you can stick to your earlier argument while still having a definition that excludes the present situation. Let's look at a more reasonable definition of a political majority; a group of people sharing an opinion who comprise the majority of society, full stop. At that point, the Euromaidan does indeed have the necessary support to fulfil the conditions you yourself laid out earlier, and only avoided by twisting the meaning of the word 'putative' until it died a sickly death.

First, democratic governments are justified in using force against violent provocations. You (wrongly) assume that the government was facing only peaceful protest.

let me clarify your first statement. Democratic governments are justified in using proportionate force against violent provocations; the concept they can use any response whatsoever is immediately apparent as abhorrent. To this, I have two responses. The first is that I dispute the democratic nature of the Yanukovych government. The second is that the force was in no manner proportionate. At the point you kidnap a genuinely peaceful protester and torture him to death (Yuriy Verbytsky), you are not being proportionate. At the point you use a Berkut sniper to kill a protester who was hiding behind barricades (Mikhail Zhiznevsky), you are not being proportionate. At the point you detonate the gas tank of someone driving to his home (Serhiy Synenko), you are not being proportionate. At no point in my argument did I state the government faced purely peaceful protests, so you do no favours by rebutting an argument I never even presented. However, even at the point there are number of violent protesters, innocent men and women have been killed. You have a high burden indeed if you seek to defend that.

This is not to say that there were no peaceful protests, nor even that the government did not use violence against peaceful protests, but you cannot so easily gloss over a democratic government's prerogative to maintain order in the face of threats of violence. Protesting to demand the resignation of an elected official is completely acceptable. Violent rebellion against a democratic government is not, at least in the absence of overwhelming popular consensus. The irony is that I doubt you are given much pause about the installed, unelected Ukrainian government using force against Ukrainians in the east. This is in fact far more difficult to justify than the Yanukovych government using force. Second, this is once again a dangerous argument. Most people do not want their lives upheaved by conflict, but you propose that a political minority can and should take it upon themselves to decide when a democratic government has crossed a line. To be sure, there are lines, but the best evidence that a line has been crossed will be overwhelming popular consensus. In the absence of such consensus, there will be conflict (which is what we have now).

I am very much concerned about the welfare of those in eastern Ukraine who desire closer ties with Russia; unfortunately much like Zuhzuhzombie!!, you have to assign false views to those you disagree with to stand any chance at making any even loose argument. My personal preference for the unfolding events is for United States, the constituent members of the European Union and other interested parties to push sever enough sanctions that Russia withdraws troops, then send in a United Nations task-force to oversee a fairly contested series of elections and referendums. Given that many European Union countries are not willing to put forward these sanctions, my secondary preference is that the interim Ukrainian administration, given a lack of a more legitimate (as we're on the comparative here) actor, secures the withdrawal of Russian troops necessary to make that elections and those referendums possible. Following that, I would note that the Yanukovych government was responsible for the deaths of over 110 people. Even the point that two-thirds or three-quarters of those were violent protesters who it was a legitimate response to kill, a vast claim in and of itself, that leaves 30, 40 innocents killed. As it stands, the interim Ukrainian is responsible for a single death as far as pro-Moscow protesters are concerned, while attempting to retake Slovyansk, during the midst of exchanging fire with Russian (as in, not pro-Russian, literally Russian) operatives. I know which I find a more tolerable record.

EDIT: As of earlier today, that number has increased to between five and twelve deaths pending unconfirmed reports about events in Slovyansk.
 
Additionally, what's the point of discussion at all then, if we're going to discredit others solely on the basis that they are not directly involved? Because someone lived in Ukraine or is of Ukrainian nationality/descent means what exactly? Does this mean in every thread, we should go, hey you're not American, you're European, you're not qualified to speak agonist them etc.

I've said it before and I will repeat. There are valid points of view that I don't agree with. I even agreed that most of the demands that separatists have are totally valid. In fact they are very similar to what protesters in Kiev wanted. What is happening here is that some people are spreading information that is clearly false. For some reason they think that "fascism" is a problem in Ukraine and that previous government was somehow legitimate just because it was elected. Just because someone is a president it does not meant that this person is allowed to steal billions of dollars and pretty much sell their country...
 
I didn't respond to your post because I said what's the point. You clearly didn't read what I was getting at. You're overly argumentative and disingenuous. Of course Kiev is "centrally" located in Ukraine, but it's considered "western" in the sense that I was getting at. And you knew this, but you wanted to argue for the sake of it because you couldn't disagree with anything else in that post. You disagree with everyone who criticizes Ukraine even a little bit and get overly defensive. I mentioned once that Ukraine has a lot of work to do, corruption, human right issues, and rather than just agree, you said look at Poland, they're not any better. So you're right, I guess I will leave it here. I'll wait for whatever new thread is made, and we can discuss exactly what is happening and move on from all of this.

That really isn't true at all!!! That's exactly my point!!! There are huge differences between Kiev and Western Ukraine. In fact the EU goal is the only thing that Unites Kiev to western Ukraine. Other things are different including Religion, Language, economy, and even history. I can't even think of something that is what you would call "similar". And I've been there dozens of times.
 
Ouch the news of possible deaths is not good at all. Anyway Putin has been onto the UN saying that the world should condemn these actions. I'm pretty sure the EU and the US will not be too pleased at the deaths. Those talks on thursday now seem in real danger.
 
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