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Ukrainian Conflict - Donetsk Boogaloo

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Kinan said:
Great piece from Snyder :

http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2014/mar/01/ukraine-haze-propaganda/
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antonz said:
what annoys me is people keep saying what you want to go to war?

Guess what? Putin doesn't want a war either. He expects no response so makes his moves. The way you counter it is by actually making counter moves. Draw that line and show that this is serious situation.

Putin is the school bully who will keep bullying until someone stands up and says no more.
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Putin is the aarrogant kid who thinks he runs the school. With no adults around to do anything about it he does whatever he wants. It's time for an adult to teach him this world isn't big enough for two of us. Only America gets a right to meddle in other nations affairs.
 
The transitional authorities were not from the right, or even from the western part of Ukraine, where nationalism is more widespread. The speaker of the parliament and the acting president is a Baptist preacher from southeastern Ukraine. All of the power ministries, where of course any coup-plotter would plant his own people, were led by professionals and Russian speakers. The acting minister of internal affairs was half Armenian and half Russian. The acting minister of defense was of Roma origin.

The provisional authorities are now being supplanted by a new government, chosen by parliament, which is very similar in its general orientation. The new prime minister is a Russian-speaking conservative technocrat. Both of the major presidential candidates in the elections planned for May are Russian speakers. The likely next president, Vitali Klitschko, is the son of a general in the Soviet armed forces, best known in the West as the heavyweight champion boxer. He is a chess player and a Russian speaker. He does his best to speak Ukrainian. It does not come terribly naturally. He is not a Ukrainian nationalist.
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Russian nazi tune is god damn ridiculous.
 
Atenhaus said:
This is all very unconfirmed, but there are reports of American units in Germany and Italy that are preparing to mobilize. This was apparently discussed in an intel brief given out to Army units today.
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I have a few friends that live in Germany who are 1st Lts in the US Army and so far none of them have mentioned anything.
 
bonesmccoy said:
Remember though, to Russia, the West (via NATO) has been 'bullying' them for the past 16 years.
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I think many don`t know anything about the time before Putin.
Jelzin was a symbol of the general decline, oligarchy and for a period of personal and national humiliation for many russians.
This decline was also the main reason why many countries could join the NATO.
 
It seems the Ukrainian National Security & Defense Council has announced a mobilization of the armed forces for 8am local time Sunday, fearing an imminent wider Russian invasion.
 
Slightly worried this event is going to appear in a history book someday under a title like 'the end of the long thaw in the cold war' or something.
 
Would anyone say that Russia feels emboldened to try shit like this due to the fact that the US is exhausted financially and mentally from over 10 years of war in Iraq/Afghanistan?
 
gribbles said:
I seriously doubt this will sate Russia's appetite. Once they see they can take whatever land they want with impunity, what's to stop them from taking more? It's 1938 Sudetenland all over again.
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I think a pretty big difference was that Hilter's main objective was to take over those areas no matter what. I don't think Putin will act like that. He occupied the Crimea because there was an opportunity to do so. That strikes me as someone who is a realist and opportunist rather than a ideological driven nut

Mammoth Jones said:
Would anyone say that Russia feels emboldened to try shit like this due to the fact that the US is exhausted financially and mentally from over 10 years of war in Iraq/Afghanistan?
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No. Even if we werent war weary, I think the response from America would be the same. The american people and the government just don't care enough or have any national interest in Ukraine to justify a war with Russia.
 
DOBERMAN INC said:
Seems like the perfect place to put this.

Dan Carlins latest Common Sense podcast is well worth a listen and goes into some of the smaller details many outlets don't touch on.

http://www.dancarlin.com//disp.php/csarchive/Show-270---Poking-the-Bear/Ukraine-Russia-Putin
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Dan Carlin has this really annoying tendency to completely misrepresent the state of the modern media. Yes, there's the occasional vapid analysis, but for every George Will there's at least one Anne Applebaum. The NY Review of Books in particular has provided lots of insightful content about Ukraine. So I don't really need to hear again that Ukraine is ethnically divided or that Kiev is the ancient heart of the Russian state. He's not really providing a more nuanced perspective than anything I could easily find in the NY Times.

Also, Carlin bases much of his argument on a leaked recording, but he makes it sound much more nefarious than it actually is. The leaked conversation was about a possible deal between the government and the opposition brokered by the US (which fell through anyway), not about toppling the government through revolution. In fact, to the extent that US officials were influencing the deal, it was to keep Vitali Klitschko out of government...and Klitschko is part of the opposition.
 
NATO will probably let Russia do whatever it wants, as long as Russia is careful, as they are being now (i.e. no inflammatory statements by Putin or other high ranking Russian officials, ambiguous actions such as "armed gunmen" taking over Ukrainian areas, etc.)

I mean who wants a war with Russia? Putin knows that and so does the west.
 
nobody wants a war, this will just pass after a few days just like Georgia

Ukraine will become part of Russia after a few weeks

that's the reality
 
darkwing said:
nobody wants a war, this will just pass after a few days just like Georgia

Ukraine will become part of Russia after a few weeks

that's the reality
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Ukraine is the largest country in europe with a population of over 40 million bordered by several NATO member states. This is a far more serious geopolitical event than Georgia.
 
It stretches across both Europe AND Asia, so it's both. Russia is still European, though, no matter how much people want to argue semantics.
 
Ukrainian citizens next to US embassy with desperate faces...

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But alas, no help is coming to you Ukraine (until NATO resolution reaches end). And definitely not the Uncle Sam.
 
Oersted said:
You could make the same statement about USA. Reality is a little bit more difficult.
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Russia and the United States have not been on the same level since the end of the cold war. To make a false equivalence between the two shows that you don't pay attention to the details of what they actually do.
 
Soyongdori said:
Ukrainian citizens next to US embassy with desperate faces...

188010136.jpg


188009990.jpg


But alas, no help is coming to you Ukraine (until NATO resolution reaches end). And definitely not the Uncle Sam.
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It bothers me to no end because this agression is as clear as it gets. There's absolutely zero reasons for Russia to step in other than annexing Crimea just for the hell of it. They didn't even bother manufacturing jackshit like we did in Iraq. They just rolled with it because might makes right and they know nobody is willing to stop them.

I feel for the Ukrainian people. They really don't deserve any of this.
 
antonz said:
what annoys me is people keep saying what you want to go to war?

Guess what? Putin doesn't want a war either. He expects no response so makes his moves. The way you counter it is by actually making counter moves. Draw that line and show that this is serious situation.

Putin is the school bully who will keep bullying until someone stands up and says no more.
Click to expand...

That's what I've been saying. No one wants a war and to make moves doesn't equate to war. You can tell people haven't really studied the Cold War at all since that's all that was.

You have to at least show you're serious or else shit like this will keep happening. Presidents during the Cold War had to call bluffs and show their rivals that they were confident and crazy enough to go to war and that's a deterrent. The E.U. and the U.S. need to remember those moves.

Putin doesn't want war either.

Oh, and the "at least it's not McCain or Romney" posts are funny. That's what you think of during this? McCain would take us through nuclear war? Nice stereotype. This has nothing to do with that shit.
 
Soyongdori said:
Ukrainian citizens next to US embassy with desperate faces...

188010136.jpg


188009990.jpg


But alas, no help is coming to you Ukraine (until NATO resolution reaches end). And definitely not the Uncle Sam.
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The look on their faces....these images almost bring a tear to my eye. Not being a smartass either---just something genuinely sad about them.
 
Giant Panda said:
Russia and the United States have not been on the same level since the end of the cold war. To make a false equivalence between the two shows that you don't pay attention to the details of what they actually do.
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What has Russia done on the scale of Iraq?
 
TacticalFox88 said:
That distinction is kind of iffy anyhow. Russia should be considered Asian, considering how ridiculously large it is
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Not really, the vast majority of the population lives west of the Urals and that's also the origin of the country, the location of its current and all historical capital cities, it speaks an Indo-European language, has strong cultural and religious ties with Europe, etc etc.

1populationdensity198g0kw6.jpg
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Salvadora said:
Can you point me towards this evidence?

Very interested if this is the case.
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Sorry for offtopic, but please don't read any of those links. This crash generated probably the same amount of crazy conspiracy theories as 9/11 did, and every one of them is based on spreading misinformation and ignoring the scientific facts, greatly colorized by the vast negative prejudice towards russians.
The amount of theories spiraled out of control and every one is crazier than the last one. Still, every one is debunked by the scientist that studied the crash, but as you know sane arguments never win anything.
Only site with proper facts is here, but it's unfortunately only in polish: http://www.faktysmolensk.gov.pl/

The 'Macierewicz Report' is a document made by an old vile paranoid fool with a help of crazy 'scientists' that don't work with planes or study flying and their 'facts' weren't based on anything more than their 'gut feeling'. For instance: they were really focused on the tree that the plane crashed and were saying that planes wing should just cut the tree and fly further, based on a computer test made by one of polish scientists working in USA. Turns out that scientist basically made up some simulation values, omitted some and cooked up a simulation that agreed with the conspiracy theory, but wasn't sciantifically viable in any way.

Macierewicz years ago when he was a part of a far right wing party made a similiar conspiracy report about people he thought were working with the communist goverment in the old times, and to this day Poland had to pay houndreds of thousands złotych to people mentioned in that report, because there wasn't any proof of their wrongdoing and they sued the contry for defamation. He still maintains that he was right and everyone that wins in court against his report is really a spy/collaborator or something. Not to mention that in that report he also listed our spies and sources outside the country and basically absolutely destroyed our Intelligency Agency just because some of the spies studied in Russia. Our country wouldn't have that many agents probably ever again and our army has to count on hastly promoted idiots.
 
Kinan said:
Great piece from Snyder :

http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2014/mar/01/ukraine-haze-propaganda/
Click to expand...

Yeah, great piece. Random quote:

In all of these ways, the “decadent” West, as Russia’s foreign minister put it, was present. Yes, there were some Jews, and there were some gays, in this revolution. And this was exploited by both the Russian and Ukrainian regimes in their internal propaganda. The Russian press presented the protest as part of a larger gay conspiracy. The Ukrainian regime instructed its riot police that the opposition was led by a larger Jewish conspiracy. Meanwhile, both regimes informed the outside world that the protestors were Nazis. Almost nobody in the West seemed to notice this contradiction.
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Euromaidan was made up of Nazi's, gays and Jews. Sure, that makes sense.
 
No one would suspect a coalition of nazis, gays, and jews. It's a perfect plan. Of course liberals can't see this because they are too busy making up stories to defend Obama for not sending troops to Crimea or imposing sanctions on Russia like telling them that we won't buy any of their gas via the pipeline
 
Kibbles said:
Russia is Europe now? My school was all a lie!!
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Turns out, it actually was.

TacticalFox88 said:
That distinction is kind of iffy anyhow. Russia should be considered Asian, considering how ridiculously large it is
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It's like saying that the British Empire was not a European country just because of all the colonies.

ThoseDeafMutes said:
Not really, the vast majority of the population lives west of the Urals and that's also the origin of the country, the location of its current and all historical capital cities, it speaks an Indo-European language, has strong cultural and religious ties with Europe, etc etc.
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That is correct. Russia just never lost its colonies.
 
bonesmccoy said:
Because it's basic encirclement. The US would react just as strongly - and has - if one of its neighbours became aligned with an unfriendly global power. This is why I think NATO expansion into these areas was not a good idea, and that the West should have been trying to normalize relations with the Russians rather than provoke them.
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Not condoning anything that Russia is doing right now, but 1000x this.

The west has been aggressively expanding NATO and attempting to diminish Russian influence globally for the past 20 years. It was an inevitability that the reaction would be someone like Putin taking power, and creating serious headaches for the rest of the world.
 
Talked with a friend in the Ukrain today, and (some) people are scared as shit. He lives in the west far from Crimea but many people don't believe Putin will stop there. I really wanted to end the conversation cause it was so damn depressing (obviously I didn't cause I'm not an asshole). Tried to reasure him that Russia won't conquer the whole Ukraine (which I honestly believe). He is thinking about quitting his job and fleeing with his entire family "while there is still time" and I honestly didn't know if I should try to stop him or not.
 
Fantastapotamus said:
Talked with a friend in the Ukrain today, and (some) people are scared as shit. He lives in the west far from Crimea but many people don't believe Putin will stop there. I really wanted to end the conversation cause it was so damn depressing (obviously I didn't cause I'm not an asshole). Tried to reasure him that Russia won't conquer the whole Ukraine (which I honestly believe). He is thinking about quitting his job and fleeing with his entire family "while there is still time" and I honestly didn't know if I should try to stop him or not.
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Lets say... he was wrong about leaving...? A little embarrassment, possibly a tough time finding a job again, etc.

Lets say he was wrong about staying?

...
 
Fantastapotamus said:
Talked with a friend in the Ukrain today, and (some) people are scared as shit. He lives in the west far from Crimea but many people don't believe Putin will stop there. I really wanted to end the conversation cause it was so damn depressing (obviously I didn't cause I'm not an asshole). Tried to reasure him that Russia won't conquer the whole Ukraine (which I honestly believe). He is thinking about quitting his job and fleeing with his entire family "while there is still time" and I honestly didn't know if I should try to stop him or not.
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i've had phone calls with friends and family there, same reactions.
 
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