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[DancingJesus]

I'm continually amazed by how often this happens on this forum, regardless of the company in question.

And here's another one:

If you read my post before that you would understand what I was talking about. It was against MS. Read before you criticize.

 

[BlueTsunami]

Its high quality! Which will mean that 1600points you have to spend for said 1st party high quality games will be justified

 

[androvsky]

Are you sure about that? PSN used to "personally delist" whatever you bought, but keep it in your download history. It was still available, but you would no longer see it as a choice. I would guess this was related to the bad interface.

The new store now shows everything you have bought, with a little red mark. I believe everything is still available. Is there anything that you can think of that no longer exists?

I can name several free games and demos that can no longer be had, such as one (possibly all) Folklore demo, the Japanese GTrologue demo, GT:HD for probably all regions. Those are very much removed from the actual store, but I can still redownload them from my history at any time (I've already redownloaded GT:HD after it was yanked from the store). I'm not aware of Sony removing anything that cost money from the PSN.

It's stuff like this that makes me worry about digital distribution of anything but inexpensive titles. There's several titles in the poor metacritic list that I'd purchase in a heartbeat when I get a 360, hopefully they'll still be around when that happens

Spoiler

or they can all just move to the PSN

.

 

[Sysgen]

...

I don't agree with move, and furthers my resolve to not partake in any sort of MS digital download future with their next system. If they will axe 50MB arcade games, how quickly will they axe 5 to 10gb full sized games?

A bit late to the thread but if there is no way to get titles back that I paid for then I'm done with their digital downloads (games). I was under the impression that once you bought the title, it was yours forever (relative to the life of the platform) on the platform you bought it on.

 

[EazyB]

Good to see MS respond to the DRM issues but what's the point if my 360 dies and I can't redownload the games off of XBL. I thought we were paying $50 a year to keep this kind of shit from happening. Ugh.

And no Spring update? Come on MS, I know Sony is far behind on the online front but at least they're making progress. I hope they pass XBL up and quickly so that MS will have to get their shit together.

 

[soco]

If MS really wanted to:
<snip>

Now that took me like 2 minutes to think up. MS has had years and still has no clue.

Also, fuck Metacritic.

i'm sure MS has thought of the same thing, since they'll essentially be doing that for the XNA community games. however, there are still other issues involved, such as the cost of implementing such a feature and getting people to rate old games that no one wants to play anymore.

with the interface they have, there's a point at which there become so many items in the list that lower items may as well be delisted, because the vast majority of users will not spend the time to find them.

if you look at their standards for potentially delisting games, it's really low. if the game can't get a conversion rate of 6% in 6 months, chances are it's garbage.

a better solution would be for MS to use that website portal they created, and keep all of the items listed there and include a textual search along with user comments. users could then queue up older games from this website, if they still want to purchase them. however this requires a pretty expensive investment.

i'd be willing to bet that MS could potentially spend more money hosting a shitload of crappy games and having them mirrored on servers around the world than they'd make on them. they could keep them on a single 'garbage' server, but that could potentially require an effort investment. i'm guessing this may be what they do though, because i guess they have to keep them around for the people who purchased them.

 

[Butane123]

Uh, MS has already done this guys.

I have to go check my arcade list, but I think it is galaga or some old arcade which has been taken away. When I went to delete it I got a warning asking if I really wanted to continue as the game had already been taken off the marketplace.

I just went to check to see if this was true or not (not that I don't believe you, but I was interested), but yeah, when I pushed delete, I got a blade that reads "GALAGA is not available from Xbox LIVE Marketplace. If you delete it, you will not be able to download it again."

Makes me sad for the future of digital distribution.

 

[FFChris]

Honestly Gaf can be so odd sometimes.

N+ Devs: There is so much crap on XBLA!
Gaf: Damn right there is!

MS: We are cutting the crap from XBLA.
Gaf: No, don't cut it we want it!

Edit: I've just read through the interview. I actually think the worst part of all this is the new 1600 point cap, hopefully we won't start seeing games hitting the cap when they would have charged 800 points otherwise.

 

[harSon]

Honestly Gaf can be so odd sometimes.

N+ Devs: There is so much crap on XBLA!
Gaf: Damn right there is!

MS: We are cutting the crap from XBLA.
Gaf: No, don't cut it we want it!

Edit: I've just read through the interview. I actually think the worst part of all this is the new 1600 point cap, hopefully we won't start seeing games hitting the cap when they would have charged 800 points otherwise.

Happens with pretty much everything Microsoft related.

 

[Kafel]

Edit: I've just read through the interview. I actually think the worst part of all this is the new 1600 point cap, hopefully we won't start seeing games hitting the cap when they would have charged 800 points otherwise.

They would have charged 1200 points otherwise.

 

[Mrbob]

I just went to check to see if this was true or not (not that I don't believe you, but I was interested), but yeah, when I pushed delete, I got a blade that reads "GALAGA is not available from Xbox LIVE Marketplace. If you delete it, you will not be able to download it again."

Makes me sad for the future of digital distribution.

Yeah it makes me wary too.

My new motto is trust no one, except Valve and Steam.

 

[FFChris]

They would have charged 1200 points otherwise.

Sorry, yes, but you get my point.

Frankly, I don't mind the 1600 point cap. I paid $40 for Warhawk on PSN. I see no reason they can't have bigger, more expensive games on XBLA.

I suppose it all comes down to if a game selling at 1600 points is worth the cost. Lucky we have demos.

 

[besada]

Honestly Gaf can be so odd sometimes.

N+ Devs: There is so much crap on XBLA!
Gaf: Damn right there is!

MS: We are cutting the crap from XBLA.
Gaf: No, don't cut it we want it!

Edit: I've just read through the interview. I actually think the worst part of all this is the new 1600 point cap, hopefully we won't start seeing games hitting the cap when they would have charged 800 points otherwise.

Actually, I said the same thing in that thread I'm saying here.

Frankly, I don't mind the 1600 point cap. I paid $40 for Warhawk on PSN. I see no reason they can't have bigger, more expensive games on XBLA.

 

[jordan0386]

I think Spring Update '09, they should change the whole interface.

I understand keeping what they have now, for the whole gen, would make Xbox 3's GUI look godly. But Im growing tired of the blade format they have currently.

 

[Mrbob]

Actually, I said the same thing in that thread I'm saying here.

Frankly, I don't mind the 1600 point cap. I paid $40 for Warhawk on PSN. I see no reason they can't have bigger, more expensive games on XBLA.

While I agree there should be 20 to 30, heck evern 40 dollar full size releases on Xbox Live, they should not be in the arcade section.

MS needs to come up with a new area for full sized game experiences. XBLA should be relegated to the unique, cheap, bite sized, and fun experience you can't get from a commercialized box disc.

 

[borghe]

I am sure it's been said in here, but in that case it NEEDS to be repeated. Discontinuing digital titles is a fuck ass stupid way to spur sales and does NOTHING beneficial while at the same time hurting the consumer and the developer.

stupid stupid stupid stupid MS. Even if Nintendo Soccer sold one copy a year on Virtual Console, I would still lash at Nintendo just as hard if they removed it. There is no good reason to do it, and the issued threat as an attempt to spur sales is also not a good reason.

uggh...

 

[vg260]

DRM fix?

Does anyone really know what this means? My system just died, and while I have a Best Buy replacement plan, I was going to eat the cost of what I paid for it so that if I went through MS so I could easily relicense my content just by re-downloading. My service request is already processing, but now I'm not sure after reading this....I could have a new system tonight, but I don't want to be stuck having to go online if this new feature isn't as good as it sounds, or if you have to go through MS and it won't work via retail excahnge.

What should I do? Need help fast.

 

[Durante]

So, instead of improving the listing options, implementing a search or adding suggestions based on your preferences or previous purchases etc (like other shops with slightly larger inventories have been doing successfully for years) they're removing content. How smart.

 

[FFChris]

While I agree there should be 20 to 30, heck evern 40 dollar full size releases on Xbox Live, they should not be in the arcade section.

MS needs to come up with a new area for full sized game experiences. XBLA should be relegated to the unique, cheap, bite sized, and fun experience you can't get from a commercialized box disc.

I agree with that. Though, having XBLA, XB Originals, XNA games (coming soon?) and then a fourth area of expensive, downloadable games, might leave the dashboard more cluttered than it already is.

 

[Ranger X]

Honestly Gaf can be so odd sometimes.

N+ Devs: There is so much crap on XBLA!
Gaf: Damn right there is!

MS: We are cutting the crap from XBLA.
Gaf: No, don't cut it we want it!

Edit: I've just read through the interview. I actually think the worst part of all this is the new 1600 point cap, hopefully we won't start seeing games hitting the cap when they would have charged 800 points otherwise.

I think you miss the point. THERE IS crap but there is people who bought it. You're supposed to be able to redownload what you bought on Xbox live. Now if the game if removed, let me bet it won't be possible to redownload. This means the customer is clearly disadvantaged in the terms and obviously, you're not owning what you buy. At least now a transfer for games.
I think that bullshit like that shouldn't happen on a premium (supposedly) service.

 

[FFChris]

I think you miss the point. THERE IS crap but there is people who bought it. You're supposed to be able to redownload what you bought on Xbox live. Now if the game if removed, let me bet it won't be possible to redownload. This means the customer is clearly disadvantaged in the terms and obviously, you're not owning what you buy. At least now a transfer for games.
I think that bullshit like that shouldn't happen on a premium (supposedly) service.

You're right. Hopefully with some pressure they'll have some sort of plan for that situation, doesn't look like it at the moment though.

For $50 a year we shouldn't be putting up with this though, yes.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

I think you miss the point. THERE IS crap but there is people who bought it. You're supposed to be able to redownload what you bought on Xbox live. Now if the game if removed, let me bet it won't be possible to redownload. This means the customer is clearly disadvantaged in the terms and obviously, you're not owning what you buy. At least now a transfer for games.

That's a pretty wild bet to take. It would be remarkably easy for them to give you a specialized code over the phone that points to the item even if it's "off" Marketplace. It's how pre-order codes work.

 

[Open Source]

i'm sure MS has thought of the same thing, since they'll essentially be doing that for the XNA community games. however, there are still other issues involved, such as the cost of implementing such a feature and getting people to rate old games that no one wants to play anymore.

with the interface they have, there's a point at which there become so many items in the list that lower items may as well be delisted, because the vast majority of users will not spend the time to find them.

if you look at their standards for potentially delisting games, it's really low. if the game can't get a conversion rate of 6% in 6 months, chances are it's garbage.

a better solution would be for MS to use that website portal they created, and keep all of the items listed there and include a textual search along with user comments. users could then queue up older games from this website, if they still want to purchase them. however this requires a pretty expensive investment.

i'd be willing to bet that MS could potentially spend more money hosting a shitload of crappy games and having them mirrored on servers around the world than they'd make on them. they could keep them on a single 'garbage' server, but that could potentially require an effort investment. i'm guessing this may be what they do though, because i guess they have to keep them around for the people who purchased them.

If it's about money, that's really dumb. The amount of money involved in hosting those games and implementing those features is practically nothing, especially since they are similar to existing features.

6% is not a low conversion rate in the PC world. I think Bejeweled on PC is below that. As the Xbox 360 base gets bigger and more diluted (less of the hardcore spend lots of money people), and more budget retail games come out, conversion rates will naturally drop and become more in line with the PC, and newer games' stats will bear the brunt of that change.

 

[besada]

While I agree there should be 20 to 30, heck evern 40 dollar full size releases on Xbox Live, they should not be in the arcade section.

MS needs to come up with a new area for full sized game experiences. XBLA should be relegated to the unique, cheap, bite sized, and fun experience you can't get from a commercialized box disc.

I'd like three categories, personally. Bargain, Arcade, Premium. Anything over 1200 goes in premium. Bargain has a 800 point cap. Everything else goes in Arcade.

 

[pswii60]

If it's about money, that's really dumb. The amount of money involved in hosting those games and implementing those features is practically nothing, especially since they are similar to existing features.

6% is not a low conversion rate in the PC world. I think Bejeweled on PC is below that. As the Xbox 360 base gets bigger and more diluted (less of the hardcore spend lots of money people), and more budget retail games come out, conversion rates will naturally drop and become more in line with the PC, and newer games' stats will bear the brunt of that change.

I'm pretty sure the 6% figure won't be set in stone, and the actual figure will be a 'well below average' conversion rate.

 

[kaching]

What are their options? PSN, with an arguably stricter definition of quality?

That's only for the Sony published PSN titles. Their policy has no such restriction if it's 3rd party published.

 

[CrapSandwich]

Thanks, MS! Good jorb once again.

 

[HokieJoe]

Why not just put them in a Bargain Bin category or something, it seems like that's a complete dead end to the developers since they have nowhere else to go

I agree. No harm in having a bargain bin for unpopular games.

 

[DancingJesus]

I agree. No harm in having a bargain bin for unpopular games.

This.
Constructive criticism FTW.

 

[sneaky77]

So lets shit on XBLA developers due to lack of clout

yes I am sure they will miss those 20 cents every 3months they are making now if they have a shitty game that sales less than 6% rate.

 

[pswii60]

That's only for the Sony published PSN titles. Their policy has no such restriction if it's 3rd party published.

Is that why PSN is flooded with 3rd party titles?

 

[xbhaskarx]

Wasn't there a leaked Live spring update list of changes? So much for all that.

This:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=294945

Look at this list Microsoft

 

[vg260]

How is this "new" DRM tool different than this process currently on their site:

To restore your licenses:

Attach your hard drive or memory unit.
Turn on the console.
Sign in to Xbox LIVE with the gamer profile that originally downloaded the content.
Go to Xbox LIVE Marketplace and select Account Management, Download History.
Select an item and then select Download Again.
Repeat step 5 for each item in your download history.
After you download your content again, anyone on this console can use it, whether you're signed in to Xbox LIVE or not.

License restoration will only work on the console as returned to you by Microsoft’s service center.

Is it really safe to assume MS will let you relicense content on a system that didn't go through their service?

 

[BlueTsunami]

yes I am sure they will miss those 20 cents every 3months they are making now if they have a shitty game that sales less than 6% rate.

Yep, its all justified

 

[xbhaskarx]

1) No spring update is really disappointing, but not surprising. Microsoft had a hard time keeping up the semi-annual pace, with the last update hitting in December. Still, I was hoping for something to address gaps in the last update.

2) DRM fix is good. It takes forever for my XBLA games to get validated and load up.

3) STUPID to de-list XBLA games. There's not many of them. Just park'em in an older listing and discount them, as Jim said. Bad, bad idea, especially setting Metacritic as part of the decision making.

One step forward, two steps back, MS.

Well said, but not having a spring update isn't really a step back, it's just not a step forward.
And some of us don't have the DRM issues, so for us this is zero steps forward, one steps back.

 

[Future PhaZe]

Wow. Ridiculous. Don't get rid of games. Do like a super discount for 200 points or something. I'd gobble up a ton of them.

 

[RBH]

That's only for the Sony published PSN titles. Their policy has no such restriction if it's 3rd party published.

Is that why PSN is flooded with 3rd party titles?

Shots fired.

 

[Draft]

Slicing off the long tail of digital distribution.

Genius, MS. Genius. :lol

 

[sneaky77]

Slicing off the long tail of digital distribution.

Genius, MS. Genius. :lol

While I agree that they should just make some separate bin for these titles, I am sure they have analized plenty of data to realize that there is no tail for some of these.

People are going crazy over it, and we don't know what titles are the ones that would get delisted, or if that means that if you bought it you won't be able to redownload it.

So I think people should chill instead of jumping to every conclusion possible..

 

[Shalashaska]

'Worst Decision Ever'

 

[Dr. Kitty Muffins]

I wish Microsoft had a team of japanese developers making first party XBLA games - particularly platformers and SRPG's.


And why not just slash the price of these underperforming games?

 

[The Faceless Master]

How is this "new" DRM tool different than this process currently on their site:


Is it really safe to assume MS will let you relicense content on a system that didn't go through their service?

well, the steps listed on their site don't work, hopefully this tool will.

 

[dirtmonkey37]

XBLA games removed from the service?


Are you fucking kidding me?!

Seriously -- this makes no sense.

 

[Slavik81]

Honestly Gaf can be so odd sometimes.

N+ Devs: There is so much crap on XBLA!
Gaf: Damn right there is!

MS: We are cutting the crap from XBLA.
Gaf: No, don't cut it we want it!

The problem with the crap on XBLA was that good games were being rejected because of it. That problem still remains even if they get rid off the crap later. (Which is retarded anyways. They should just have a well-organized store and it's no problem. Do you see iTunes delisting songs just because they were blasted by critics?).

The lack of a spring update is just another slap in the face. Sony's been seriously upgrading their software and Microsoft's resting on their laurels.

 

[Draft]

While I agree that they should just make some separate bin for these titles, I am sure they have analized plenty of data to realize that there is no tail for some of these.

People are going crazy over it, and we don't know what titles are the ones that would get delisted, or if that means that if you bought it you won't be able to redownload it.

So I think people should chill instead of jumping to every conclusion possible..

The ubiquitous bargain bin argues otherwise.

No matter how bad a piece of shit some game may be, someone, somewhere will buy it for $1.99. I do it all the time.

 

[a Master Ninja]

YAY FOR FIXING THE DRM! My number one most wanted dashboard fix. Now please, Microsoft, please make that "leaked dashboard update list" a reality. PLEASE.

The first party XBLA development sounds good.

I have mixed feelings about the XBLA delisting. I won't miss that stuff personally, but it's a bad precedent.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

the DRM stuff is fucking GREAT news, having to be online to play xbla titles i already paid for fucking sucks, not to mention i just bought an Elite and was kinda dreading having to transfer all my shit over and deal with that stuff again. downloaded stuff should have always been linked to your gamertag since day 1.

the removal of titles stuff is a little baffling. Doesn't really bother me cause i doubt it'll affect any games i give a shit about, but it'd be interesting to hear MS' reasoning for this.


&2

How is this "new" DRM tool different than this process currently on their site:


Is it really safe to assume MS will let you relicense content on a system that didn't go through their service?

i tried this just last week after hearing about it on 1up Yours and it doesn't fix anything. It lets you redownload all the games you've bought but they are still unplayable when you aren't online. I think that fix is only meant for if you have the same HDD and same 360 you bought the stuff on, and your HDD just got wiped or something. But if you got a new or replacement 360 you're shit out of luck. Hopefully this new update will change that.

 

[kaching]

Is that why PSN is flooded with 3rd party titles?

Just trying to keep the facts straight. The group at Sony taking the elitist attitude towards PSN releases is only responsible for the Sony published stuff. Why PSN isn't getting a lot of 3rd party support is a whole other can of worms.

 

[2 Minutes Turkish]

While I don't think the idea of removing Arcade titles makes much sense, and correct me if I'm wrong here but....

Don't the Live arcade games take up server space? I'm not very technically minded when it comes to shit like this, but I can only assuem they don't want 'shit' games taking up what little space they take up no?

What other reason could there be?

 

[Piper Az]

It can't be the storage issue - these games are, what, 50 MB? at most 350 MB?

Cluttered? Why not make a separate section called "The Vault", where all the crappy games go to?

Another brilliantly stupid idea by MS...