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[bishoptl]

What the fuck are you people talking about?!?!

The games had a chance and FUCKING FAILED!

The whole point of making them available through digital download is so that this situation doesn't arise.

Brick and mortar stores are one thing. Swapping out shelf space for the latest and greatest while ditching the underperforming titles makes perfect sense there - but DD doesn't have the same excuse. You don't need the disc/cartridge to play some obscure shooter from 12 years ago - just hop online, download and play. With the removal of the Live-required DRM, I was planning on moving more of my online game purchases over to the 360. What if I pick a game that doesn't do so well a few years from now, despite enjoying it immensely? Will I be able to download it again down the road? Wouldn't you love to be able to download Godhand and show it off to your kids a decade later?

If PSN goes down this same route, I'll be very pissed off.

 

[besada]

Please inform me of a better solution then Quality Control.

Engage in actual quality control instead of retroactively going back on your promise to customers?

Each game being taken back was approved by a dev, a publisher, and MS. The only person taking the hit in this scenario is the gamer who laid out money for the game, with the understanding that they'd continue to have access to the games they'd paid for.

The answer is to implement a better UI and grading system, so good games float to the top. It's not complicated, and MS could find such an interface on a dozen different existing sites. It serves all of the business parties (publishers, platform, gamer, dev) without hosing any one of them.

 

[harSon]

If you want to keep applying this "to retail", then you're going to quickly reach a point when you're forced to realize most of even the best rated games on XBLA wouldn't have made it to retail.

Not exactly sure what you're trying to argue....

 

[kaching]

That's true, but no end user paid for them and therefore is not ENTITLED to them always being there.

Err, paying for software never entitled you to unlimited copies either...

 

[Rorschach]

Power of choice ftl!

 

[Maztorre]

If Microsoft wants to "help" the buyer out so much by removing poor titles why don't they give the customer the choice by posting the metacritic review score next to the title and then let them decide. Steam already does this, problem solved.

Because they want to have their cake and eat it. They want the shit games to sell well regardless, but if they don't sell, they don't want to deal with the (negligible) cost of hosting them, nor do they want to deal with the fact that they approved shit games throughout the life of the service.

 

[Ledsen]

Great idea MS! Instead of, say, making it possible to actually browse and filter the Marketplace in a meningful way, sorting games by Metacritic score (like Steam), date, size and so on, you pull this shit.

 

[pswii60]

Because they want to have their cake and eat it. They want the shit games to sell well regardless, but if they don't sell, they don't want to deal with the (negligible) cost of hosting them, nor do they want to deal with the fact that they approved shit games throughout the life of the service.

Shit games!

Hopefully MS will put these shit games in a bargain section to reduce the hysteria as well as the price.

 

[kaching]

Not exactly sure what you're trying to argue....

Digital distribution shouldn't be expected to follow the same rules as retail distribution does.

 

[bishoptl]

Err, paying for software never entitled you to unlimited copies either...

Then why purchase them through digital download at all? If that's the approach you're touting, I'd rather take my chances and stick with physical media, then. At least I can pull my C-64 out of the back and slap in Bruce Lee if I want to play.

This was supposed to be one of the main advantages of digital download, and now it's being cut. That's a pisser from the consumer's POV. I haven't even touched on how the developers must feel.

 

[Gowans]

So instead of fixing the marketplace to allow better navigation of the worth while titles they're just deleting them instead.

Stupid, stupid decision, organise your marketplace MS, some of those games might have an audience (most need some major, major price cuts tho - would love to see that death row list sorted by price).


Weren't we also told that we receive two dash updates a year as part of our subs and MS wanting to keep ahead with the service. (summer update or major autumn update?)

Nice to hear they are finally fixing the DRM tho.

 

[Y2Kev]

1600 MS Points is a dangerous thing...

 

[Maztorre]

Shit games!

Let me correct myself. I meant Shit Games as Newly Defined by Microsoft, Arbiter of Taste.

 

[MCD]

1600 MS Points is a dangerous thing...

not for their "better and bigger" 1st party live arcade games i bet!

 

[HallucinatingElvis]

err.... I dont get the anger and frustration but being witness to such strong feelings I'll concede my posittion on the issue

 

[pswii60]

So instead of fixing the marketplace to allow better navigation of the worth while titles they're just deleting them instead.

Stupid, stupid decision, organise your marketplace MS, some of those games might have an audience (most need some major, major price cuts tho - would love to see that death row list sorted by price).


Weren't we also told that we receive two dash updates a year as part of our subs and MS wanting to keep ahead with the service. (summer update or major autumn update?)

Nice to hear they are finally fixing the DRM tho.

Well, the dashboard update will affect you whether you are a Gold member or not, so not sure it's actually related to our subs.

Let me correct myself. I meant Shit Games as Newly Defined by Microsoft, Arbiter of Taste.

:lol Fair enough.

Personally, I think it's too early to get upset. When it actually gets announced that a specific game is going to be delisted, we can worry about it then. I'm sure we'll all have a chuckle and a giggle at the game in question too.

not for their "better and bigger" 1st party live arcade games i bet!

Or Penny Mehrcade.

 

[harSon]

Engage in actual quality control instead of retroactively going back on your promise to customers?

Each game being taken back was approved by a dev, a publisher, and MS. The only person taking the hit in this scenario is the gamer who laid out money for the game, with the understanding that they'd continue to have access to the games they'd paid for.

The answer is to implement a better UI and grading system, so good games float to the top. It's not complicated, and MS could find such an interface on a dozen different existing sites. It serves all of the business parties (publishers, platform, gamer, dev) without hosing any one of them.

They are engaging in quality control. Microsoft has been quite selective as of late (in terms of games that gain approval), see Microsoft's decision on the Cave SHMUPs as a reference. Your entire argument is dependent on an anomaly that may or may not be present when this removal plan is initiated. The only example that we can use is one that has unpaid downloads, I'm sure I don't have to state the differences between a paid and unpaid product and the ways in which a company handles them.

 

[Shaheed79]

This just in. iTunes getting rid of all songs rated 3 stars are less.

 

[Joates]

The whole point of making them available through digital download is so that this situation doesn't arise.

Brick and mortar stores are one thing. Swapping out shelf space for the latest and greatest while ditching the underperforming titles makes perfect sense there - but DD doesn't have the same excuse. You don't need the disc/cartridge to play some obscure shooter from 12 years ago - just hop online, download and play. With the removal of the Live-required DRM, I was planning on moving more of my online game purchases over to the 360. What if I pick a game that doesn't do so well a few years from now, despite enjoying it immensely? Will I be able to download it again down the road? Wouldn't you love to be able to download Godhand and show it off to your kids a decade later?

If PSN goes down this same route, I'll be very pissed off.

Great question, let's wait and see what MS does, but until then, let's let GAF wildly speculate doomsday scenarios!

Lets look how MS chose to do this:

According to Whitten, XBLA titles that have been out for more than six months, have a Metacritic score of less than 65%, and have a conversion rate of less than 6% will be eligible for desliting. Microsoft will give three months of notice before these titles are removed.

Hmm, not only does the game have to be pretty shitty review wise, it has to be selling next to none and be an older title (at which point sales typically dont pick up...). And even then they are just considered elgible for delisting.

So let me ask you this, does it at any time become elgible for MS to pull it or does it have to keep it up forever, in case 15 years from now one person wants to redownload it.

Something seems to be telling me this is stupid from a business sense...

This just in. iTunes getting rid of all songs rated 3 stars are less.

:lol Lets see its something like this right?


XBLA developers : MS :: Record labels : Apple


Hmm, one seems to carry a little more weight with the distributor... guess which

 

[harSon]

Price cuts are not a solution.

 

[pswii60]

This just in. iTunes getting rid of all songs rated 3 stars are less.

A lot of stuff has randomly disappeared off iTunes actually, but I think that's down to the label rather than Apple.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

Well, the dashboard update will affect you whether you are a Gold member or not, so not sure it's actually related to our subs.

:lol Fair enough.

Personally, I think it's too early to get upset. When it actually gets announced that a specific game is going to be delisted, we can worry about it then. I'm sure we'll all have a chuckle and a giggle at the game in question too.

Yeah, isn't there like a three month warning? Seems reasonable enough. I'm sure if you buy a game and ever have to delete it and get it back, you'd be able to call MS and get a code to redownload it. Which is about the same hassle as going to a store for an exchange of a product.

I do, however, absolutely think it distracts them from the real problem, a better designed XBLA Marketplace.

 

[PetriP-TNT]

Can you still play the games that you have bought and now get deleted from the service?

 

[kaching]

Then why purchase them through digital download at all? If that's the approach you're touting...

Easy, bish! I'm not touting any particular approach, I'm just pointing out that his distinction isn't really accurate.

 

[Dever]

Can't wait for Microsoft's E3 press conference:

Live now has 15 million subscribers blah blah blah the definitive online service blah blah blah high quality content, over 90% of XBLA titles have a Metacritic score of over 70!

This doesn't make sense to me, either. Do they really expect small devs to still make XBLA games?

 

[tfur]

Some demos have been removed too, mainly for PSN games. But they're still in my download history despite not showing on the service.

Are you sure about that? PSN used to "personally delist" whatever you bought, but keep it in your download history. It was still available, but you would no longer see it as a choice. I would guess this was related to the bad interface.

The new store now shows everything you have bought, with a little red mark. I believe everything is still available. Is there anything that you can think of that no longer exists?

 

[LCfiner]

I don't see why MS would be against a virtual bargain bin for XBLA games, if they want to tidy up the main download pages. Obviously they wouldn't call it "bargain bin" but something marketable.

Is it costing them that much money just to store some 50 MB files on a server? It should only be pricey if bandwidth is being used to download the stuff (and that would be good for the game).

 

[Dr. Zoidberg]

Err, paying for software never entitled you to unlimited copies either...

Uh...by "unlimited copies" I assume you are referring to unlimited legal downloads.

I suppose, in the legal-speak of some EULA, you are probably correct, but I think there is a much greater expectation that paid downloads will be there, at least for the life of the console generation/service, for the end user. To the point where people would get pissed off and bring a lawsuit. With free/promo stuff, on the other hand, I don't think there is any danger of such.

A lot of the fear in this thread is from people afraid they won't be able to re-download their purchased items when we have no idea if that will be the case or not. It might be LEGAL for MS to pull those titles totally off the service including people's history lists, but I really doubt they will do it.

Of course it's more fun to stoke the fire.

 

[Maztorre]

This just in. iTunes getting rid of all songs rated 3 stars are less.

I heard Steve Jobs completely axed The Eagles' back catalog from iTunes because he fuckin' HATES them

 

[Classic_Gs]

FINALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
They are fixing DRM!!......I never thought this day would come.

 

[dagZ]

no spring dashboard update

no dashboard update

no update

 

[Scottlarock]

They really should just move the games to another tab and mark them 'Discount Games' for $1.99

 

[Shaheed79]

I heard Steve Jobs completely axed The Eagles' back catalog from iTunes because he fuckin' HATES them

That sounds like ol Stevie alright.


*checks iTunes*

Damn he must of changed his mind. Next time he better stick to his guns.

 

[duk]

They should still leave the titles up there. How could it hurt?

 

[besada]

It's really easy to find out if you can download games not listed. There is a single game, that I know of, not listed that virtually everyone has -- Hexic.

I know it's not listed because I bought my wife a Core and myself a 120G drive and gave her my freshly wiped 20G. Guess what? She couldn't download her favorite game, Hexic, because it's not listed.

So, simple test. Go delete Hexic and try to download it from your history. I'd do it on mine, but if it didn't download my wife would castrate me. As it is, she's frustrated that she has to use my 360 to play her favorite game.

 

[BlueTsunami]

:lol Lets see its something like this right?


XBLA developers : MS :: Record labels : Apple


Hmm, one seems to carry a little more weight with the distributor... guess which

So lets shit on XBLA developers due to lack of clout

 

[zaidr]

wait, you can't redownload already purchased software? What happens to the Arcade Pack user with her 256meg memory card? This is a very idiotic move, and I really hope it turns out to be a PR nightmare if thats the case. No one will want to ever download XBLA games, for fear of low sales, which will lead to low sales. Why is MS trying to screw over its XBLA customers, not to mention its developers who have already voiced concern over their service...

 

[harSon]

They really should just move the games to another tab and mark them 'Discount Games' for $1.99

And punish Publishers/Developers with newer and higher reviewed games?

 

[OverHeat]

It's really easy to find out if you can download games not listed. There is a single game, that I know of, not listed that virtually everyone has -- Hexic.

I know it's not listed because I bought my wife a Core and myself a 120G drive and gave her my freshly wiped 20G. Guess what? She couldn't download her favorite game, Hexic, because it's not listed.

So, simple test. Go delete Hexic and try to download it from your history. I'd do it on mine, but if it didn't download my wife would castrate me. As it is, she's frustrated that she has to use my 360 to play her favorite game.

Call support they will give you a code.

 

[harSon]

wait, you can't redownload already purchased software? What happens to the Arcade Pack user with her 256meg memory card? This is a very idiotic move, and I really hope it turns out to be a PR nightmare if thats the case. No one will want to ever download XBLA games, for fear of low sales, which will lead to low sales. Why is MS trying to screw over its XBLA customers, not to mention its developers who have already voiced concern over their service...

For fucks sake, it's a plan that has yet to be initiated. There is a HUGE FUCKING DIFFERENCE between not being able to download a free gamerpic pack because it was removed and not being able to download a game that you paid for. Everyone's outrage is based on an assumption...

 

[Tiktaalik]

Wow XBLA just keeps becoming a worse and worse deal for indie devs.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

Using a review aggregator as a factor to determine whether or not something gets dropped is fucking lame as fucking hell, MS. Dropping titles period is fucking lame as hell, MS. As has been already said, just discount them and drop them into a new bucket apart from the rest of the Arcade fare.

 

[Maztorre]

And punish Publishers/Developers with newer and higher reviewed games?

Steam frequently discounts games at many points in their lifespan in order to encourage sales. It isn't a punishment if the game just isn't selling at all at the current price. Discounting is a far more positive measure than outright removal of the game.

 

[zaidr]

Call support they will give you a code.

So we gotta call support to re-download things already purchased on an online distribution service. Thats very convenient. Thanks MS. You do online so well...

 

[Dr. Zoidberg]

Call support they will give you a code.

Was Hexic EVER freely available for DL? I thought it only came bundled on the HDD. If that's true, then I wouldn't EXPECT it to show up in anybody's DL list and it's not a valid "litmus test".

 

[OverHeat]

Was Hexic EVER freely available for DL? I thought it only came bundled on the HDD. If that's true, then I wouldn't EXPECT it to show up in anybody's DL list and it's not a valid "litmus test".

Only available on the HDD.

 

[Open Source]

If MS really wanted to:
1) make developers happy by showing good games more prominently in the XBLA store, and
2) keep users and the developers of the poor-selling games happy by not totally eliminating old games

then I recommend that
1) they organize XBLA pretty much exactly like the movie marketplace, where people can sort by several different categories,
2) make one of those categories the game's user rating (others: release date, developer, publisher, point cost, etc.)
3) make user rating the default sort category, and
4) allow full game owners to rate the game

Now that took me like 2 minutes to think up. MS has had years and still has no clue.

Also, fuck Metacritic.

 

[Talamius]

They'll just drive development towards WiiWare and PSN, which all things considered is probably a good thing for two reasons:

1) The potential WiiWare audience base will be the largest of the three services.

2) Sony is far more user-content friendly.

 

[harSon]

Wow XBLA just keeps becoming a worse and worse deal for indie devs.

What are their options? PSN, with an arguably stricter definition of quality? Or Nintendo, a much more lenient alternative (Quality wise) but a much more restrictive size limit.

 

[OverHeat]

So we gotta call support to re-download things already purchased on an online distribution service. Thats very convenient. Thanks MS. You do online so well...

Did you ever bought something on the Marketplace?