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[Rhindle]

Um...yeah?

That's why you deal with concept approval and certification, y'know, before you release them for your platform. They've already jumped through the requisite hoops. That's how it works.

So to act like this is somehow a good thing, a noble act, that Microsoft is reducing the online clutter and detritus to save us - yes, you, my friend! and I! and him! and her! - from these niggling little underperforming games that somehow snuck onto their Live service and are now taking up valuable internets andbythewaycostwaylessthan800points...well that's a load of horseshit. Plainly speaking. If you're so bloody concerned about quality control, deal with it before approving it for release.

I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt and see how this pans out. What I would like to see happen is for there to be a relatively low bar for getting on the system - set it low enough that all the XNA/indie/quirky stuff has a chance of getting on. Then give those titles a limited amount of time to get traction and prove themselves - in which case they earn a permanent spot on the system.

At least, I HOPE that's what they are driving towards. The market could act as an effective filter, so long as you manage the environment carefully. It could turn out to be a much healthier system that the current retail publishing environment. I would be a little more open-minded and see how this plays out.

 

[ZeoVGM]

The big problem with this is that Metacritic score does not equal fact. Especially if we're talking in the 55-65 range.

Video game reviews are becoming unimportant, untrustworthy, and out of touch. Very often.

Tetris Splash is awesome. That's like a 60 game.

 

[Sean]

Another thing that I don't think anyone has mentioned yet, what about the possibility of de-listed XBLA games going to XNA Community Games instead?

 

[Gizmo_Monkey]

I think its a good idea removing crap games from there. It encourages developers to make better crap that is actually good crap. Most of the crap that comes out on there each week is just crap. So good thinking.

 

[FFChris]

Another thing that I don't think anyone has mentioned yet, what about the possibility of de-listed XBLA games going to XNA Community Games instead?

Good point. Though it will be some time before we know exactly how the XNA Community Games feature will work.

 

[acm2000]

They already have this, it's called XBLA Hits.

http://www.xbox.com/en-US/games/arcadehits/default.htm

exactly, so why not add another section called "XBLA Shits" for this crap no one buys anyway and that everyone is pretending to care about if it got removed

 

[Shard]

exactly, so why not add another section called "XBLA Shits" for this crap no one buys anyway and that everyone is pretending to care about if it got removed

Well, I guess you can think of this new policy as that in action.

 

[iapetus]

Don't see the Metacritic score as a way of selecting which games are to be cut. See it as a way for unpopular games to be allowed to stay if they're sufficiently well received critically. Old games that don't sell would normally be seen as sufficient justification for dropping them - the Metacritic clause gives these games a chance to survive.

Obviously I'd prefer to see the games stay with a better sorted catalogue. And I'm as pissed off as the next man if they deny me the ability to download games that I've purchased just because nobody else did.

 

[acm2000]

Don't see the Metacritic score as a way of selecting which games are to be cut. See it as a way for unpopular games to be allowed to stay if they're sufficiently well received critically. Old games that don't sell would normally be seen as sufficient justification for dropping them - the Metacritic clause gives these games a chance to survive.

Obviously I'd prefer to see the games stay with a better sorted catalogue. And I'm as pissed off as the next man if they deny me the ability to download games that I've purchased just because nobody else did.

they would have to allow you redownload them, otherwise im sure theyd have a law suit on their hands

 

[seanoff]

first, Rhindle needs a new tag "MS Apologist" would fit or "MS employee"

second, this goes against the very fabric of digital distribution and even electronic commerce in general. Generally digital goods have almost no, marginal cost (the cost of producing one extra unit), the distribution cost is also very small and therefore any sale of said good is pretty much pure GP. Given that many are paying $50 for the service, most of the costs are already covered, therefore the net profit to be shared between MS and the dev/publisher is pretty much the entire amount of the sale.

it costs, according to the article below, $0.00022/MB for HDD space, therefore a 50MB XBLA game costs 1.1 cents in HDD space. One wonders how MS can't afford that.

Also if consumers blow a HDD, they should have some rights to re-download the content that they have purchased. If this option is removed MS really really really need to have a good hard think about what they are doing and why.


If the store is in need of some organisation, organise the store.
DON'T REMOVE CONTENT.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/storag...ogy_Ships_One_Billionth_Hard_Disk_Drives.html

further reading

http://mooreschool.sc.edu/moore/research/Publications/BandE/bande47/47n1/ecommerce.html

 

[FFChris]

it costs, according to the article below, $0.00022/MB for HDD space, therefore a 50MB XBLA game costs 1.1 cents in HDD space. One wonders how MS can't afford that.

I said a few pages ago, it could be due to bandwidth costs of people downloading the demos then not paying off the bandwidth costs by buying the full game.

Hopefully even if they do take off games, they'll keep them on the server. As you say, it hardly costs them a lot.

 

[aku:jiki]

This is stupid. I've been a huge fan of XBLA for a while, but it seems that every new decision they make just brings them one step closer to failure.

They already have.

Go delete Galaga and try to redownload it. Good luck with that.

Just had to point out that this isn't true. Galaga is still there, I just double-checked to be sure before I posted and there it is.

 

[Another_visitor]

they would have to allow you redownload them, otherwise im sure theyd have a law suit on their hands

Or they could just refund you instead. Although, from all the MS customer service - horror stories, I don't expect that to be easy.

 

[CorwinB]

Let me correct myself. I meant Shit Games as Newly Defined by Microsoft, Arbiter of Taste.

No, that's Shit Games as Newly Defined by Metacritics, this shining beacon of objective truth many GAFfers find quite convenient when they need to "prove" the absolute superiority of one title over another, or "prove" that a given console has "no games worth playing".

I'm not saying this is a good decision from MS (it isn't), and they should at the very least allow existing owners to redownload delisted games...

 

[Kill Your Masters]

they would have to allow you redownload them, otherwise im sure theyd have a law suit on their hands

If this is the case, and I hope it ist, then I have no problem with the new policy...otherwise: sucks.

We have to wait and see.

I'm glad that the DRM will get finally fixed.

EVEN the fracking DIVX Codecs have DRM, and if you switch consoles you cant watch divx movies offline!

 

[Durante]

If the store is in need of some organisation, organise the store.

This is a perfect one-line summary of the situation (and many of us have been saying it for quite some time). As a huge fan of Digital Distribution, the way MS has handled XBLA lately has been nothing short of depressing.

 

[seanoff]

I said a few pages ago, it could be due to bandwidth costs of people downloading the demos then not paying off the bandwidth costs by buying the full game.

Hopefully even if they do take off games, they'll keep them on the server. As you say, it hardly costs them a lot.

You downloading a demo would probably cost MS significantly less than a cent.


Read the link if you want an angle on commercial bandwidth costs.
http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?t=692810

 

[thorns]

Agree that this is a really stupid idea. If the problem is the cluttering of the store, it's better to overhaul it and have a more flexible store where you can view bestsellers, top ranked games, games that are similar to the ones you like etc etc. The current store is just shitty to handle the amount of content in it. I don't think it will take long for WiiWare to surpass XBLA if MS continues like this.

 

[FightyF]

It's been said before, but it bears repeating. Pulling these titles to the side, through user ratings, a nicely-monikered "bargain-bin", or what have you is far superior to pulling them from the service entirely. Unless there's a specific licensing agreement that's expired, there is no excuse - none - for not allowing these titles to take up a few molecules of space in a backroom server somewhere.

An utterly asinine decision. Publicizing it? Even worse.

Exactly. If they want to release any PR on underperforming games, it should be, "Select XBLA titles 50% discount".

This is a perfect one-line summary of the situation (and many of us have been saying it for quite some time). As a huge fan of Digital Distribution, the way MS has handled XBLA lately has been nothing short of depressing.

I have to say that for the most part (excluding DRM issues), the technology side has been very good. There are so many things done right that make XBLA what it is.

But these sorts of decisions are absolutely stupid and undo all of the great things it offers.

I agree with the interface though...

Here's what I would propose to MS. Get their Silverlight platform to work on the 360. Besides using it for obvious stuff, like more animated ads on the dashboard, use it for their marketplaces to create a very sexy looking, fast, easy to use marketplace.

I say they should use SL because they can tweak it on a more regular basis and not depend on system updates.

I also think they should do something similar in the Games blade where you can browse the entire retail 360 library in a similar fashion to get info and trailers/demos for such games. I think Sony should do this as well. I see something like this as a great way for gamers to get info on any title on the console, especially if its sorted by genre categories by default (but allowing for other categorization or searches, of course).

 

[gkryhewy]

I'm more disappointed by the lack of a spring update. Nothing to fix? Come on, now..

 

[Evander]

~7GB for the entire XBLA library...

they just upped the game size limit, but yeah.

 

[Evander]

We don't know that to be true. They could just be delisted, and you'd still be able to redownload them through your download history.

Why bother delisting them, then?

"clutter" is not a really serious issue here, and even if it was, delisting does very little to solve it.

 

[WickedLaharl]

If this is the case, and I hope it ist, then I have no problem with the new policy...otherwise: sucks.

We have to wait and see.

I'm glad that the DRM will get finally fixed.

EVEN the fracking DIVX Codecs have DRM, and if you switch consoles you cant watch divx movies offline!

well this has been fixable for some time now. create another xbl profile and download the media update again. still epically retarded tho.

 

[Evander]

they would have to allow you redownload them, otherwise im sure theyd have a law suit on their hands

Go and check the legal agreements, but I am CERTAIN that they withold the right to delist content and make it no longer available for download, ESPECIALLY given the three month warning period that they mentioned.

I'm still against it, of course, but I doubt that they don't have their back covered, legally.

 

[Isurus]

it costs, according to the article below, $0.00022/MB for HDD space, therefore a 50MB XBLA game costs 1.1 cents in HDD space. One wonders how MS can't afford that.

The Total Cost of Ownership of storage for an organization is significantly higher than simply the cost to go out and purchase a hard drive, flash drive, etc. An organization has to purchase software to manage that storage, has to pay for maintenance on both the hardware and the software, pay for floor space allocated to the storage, pay for powering and cooling the storage, as well as pay the I/T employees wages and benefits to support the storage. I am sure the total cost of storing an XBLA game is higher than 1.1 cents, because you can't just factor in what it costs to purchase the physical storage device.

That being said, I don't think cost is their motivation behind this. I think it has more to do with the criticism they've taken for an abundance of less-than-stellar titles they have crowding the marketplace. Whether they are addressing it the right way or not remains to be seen.

I also wonder if Live-enabled XBLA games that are delisted will function properly afterwards.

 

[Stop It]

Yet another great sounding "Meeting room" idea that frankly should have never left the meeting, how is the threat of removing "underperforming" content from XBLA going to encourage devs to want to make XBLA titles? Especially seeing as both WiiWare and PSN are looking to expand, if anything just price reduce older games and list them as "classics", simple.

On a brighter note, the DRM fixes, while long overdue, are welcome.

 

[Kafel]

Seriously MS, think about it again.

Highlight more the good games if you think there is a problem but don't erase the diversity of XBLA.

 

[MCD]

I'm surprised no one is asking about BC update, guess no one need it anymore

 

[Kill Your Masters]

well this has been fixable for some time now. create another xbl profile and download the media update again.

Thats what I did, but if I have to do it that way if I switch the console again (in case a slim pops up, or my falcon gets rrod etc.) its, as you say, "retarded".

 

[jmdajr]

no update

 

[Evander]

I'm surprised no one is asking about BC update, guess no one need it anymore

I'd love to see Crazy Taxi 3 added to the BC list, but honestly, I'm not sure I'd ever get around to playing it.

 

[MaddenNFL64]

Stupid idea on removing XBLA games fom LIVE. Hopefully, at the very least they leave it on the server, so we can re-download our crappy, no-selling games we bought.

 

[gcubed]

i know everyone is bitching about the delisting, but forming a 1st party studio to solely work on XBLA content is news.

 

[thetrin]

Mostly, it is concern over the fact that MSoft is doing something which hurts a small group of customers, and does no customers any benefit at all, without any apparent significant benefit to themselves.

Exactly. More than anything else, I think many people are just confused why MS is going through the trouble to do something detrimental in a number of ways, and helpful in no way.

 

[unclenutty]

I was just thinking that if they remove the titles that's OK. Just allow gamers to go to their download history, click on the title they downloaded previously and their you go. You're back in business, and MS doesn't have to have that "crap" title on XBLA anymore. As long as they keep the game available through the "download history," of course. Just thinkin' out loud.

 

[[Nintex]]

i know everyone is bitching about the delisting, but forming a 1st party studio to solely work on XBLA content is news.

But is it a whole new studio or are they taking a part of RARE(the handheld team?) to develop first party XBLA titles.

 

[Evander]

I was just thinking that if they remove the titles that's OK. Just allow gamers to go to their download history, click on the title they downloaded previously and their you go. You're back in business, and MS doesn't have to have that "crap" title on XBLA anymore. As long as they keep the game available through the "download history," of course. Just thinkin' out loud.

What would be the point, though?

If they are alreadyhosting thegames, why not make money off of them by selling them?

 

[thetrin]

Yet another great sounding "Meeting room" idea that frankly should have never left the meeting, how is the threat of removing "underperforming" content from XBLA going to encourage devs to want to make XBLA titles? Especially seeing as both WiiWare and PSN are looking to expand, if anything just price reduce older games and list them as "classics", simple.

On a brighter note, the DRM fixes, while long overdue, are welcome.

Well, don't forget that XBLA is starting to reject retro content as well. I just hope XBLA doesn't become as homogenized as the disc-based lineup.

As countless other people have said, why are they reducing the diversity of the service?

Don't want too much retro stuff? Reduce the price, stuff them in a retro section, and let people GIVE YOU THEIR MONEY. Don't want the lower quality titles? Reduce the price, stuff them in a bargain section, and let people GIVE YOU THEIR MONEY.

 

[br0ken_shad0w]

It seems the longer this gen goes on, the worst Microsoft gets...

Anyone who supports this just doesn't get it:

But bad games create clutter
Then improve the layout

But I don't download those games
So what? Even if you hate it, who cares. There are still a few people out there who want it. What's wrong with choice?

Microsoft just ugh...

 

[sableholic]

It seems the longer this gen goes on, the worst Microsoft gets...

Anyone who supports this just doesn't get it:

But bad games create clutter
Then improve the layout

But I don't download those games
So what? Even if you hate it, who cares. There are still a few people out there who want it. What's wrong with choice?

Microsoft just ugh...

Did you see the post about it possibly costing developers money to keep it up there? If that is indeed true I think its a perfectly reasonable thing to do.

If not though I agree with what you said.

 

[Evander]

Did you see the post about it possibly costing developers money to keep it up there? If that is indeed true I think its a perfectly reasonable thing to do.

If not though I agree with what you said.

Do we have anything at all to back up that post?

And even if it is true, I'd say it should be up to the devs, not an arbitrary set of rules.

 

[Harteex]

I don't really think there are any problems with cleaning out some shit games.
BUT if customers who have bought these games cannot download them again, then it totally sucks and I will probably not buy more XBLA games.

 

[Princess Skittles]

Wow, this is one of the dumbest things Microsoft has done. Well, at least as far as the Xbox is concerned. :lol

 

[Stop It]

Well, don't forget that XBLA is starting to reject retro content as well. I just hope XBLA doesn't become as homogenized as the disc-based lineup.

As countless other people have said, why are they reducing the diversity of the service?

Don't want too much retro stuff? Reduce the price, stuff them in a retro section, and let people GIVE YOU THEIR MONEY. Don't want the lower quality titles? Reduce the price, stuff them in a bargain section, and let people GIVE YOU THEIR MONEY.

Exactly, it is very worrying, the whole point of DD is the ability to host all manners of content, from the small scale to the epci, just look at STEAM for gods sake.

MS needs to realise than when it comes to Digital Content, less is certainly not more, 1 XBLA release a week is frankly stupid, and the certification program is draconian at best, MS needs to open the XBLA system up, get more games out there, and organise their store better to accomodate more games, don't go down this road, please Mircosoft, just re-think this.

 

[Talamius]

I know I probably won't buy any more XBLA titles because of this decision. If I like the game, why should I care about metacritic scores? Why take the chance of buying a title, have it delist in the future, and then not be able to download it again if my console RRODs?

DD is a new medium for delivering games, and it won't take much to break consumer trust. For a company that supposedly believes DD is the future, decisions like this do a good job of sabotaging things.

 

[samratty]

I just don't understand this, It's really a backward decisision. I'd really like to know the true reasons behind it, not the PR fed reason we're bound to here.

XBLA is a great service with great games, but it seems sometimes MS does everything in its power to sabotage it's own successes, and the ideals of DD and XBLA from the perspective of the consumer.

 

[Dark Octave]

This has probably been said about a million times already, but I would probably lower the price for games that aren't selling and offer the games that can't be lowered any further as free downloads. Then I would throw them in a new "free section" to let the selling games further stand out from the clutter.

To remove them all together I don't think is a good idea.

 

[Ranger X]

That's a pretty wild bet to take. It would be remarkably easy for them to give you a specialized code over the phone that points to the item even if it's "off" Marketplace. It's how pre-order codes work.

It's not wild at all to me because why wouldn't you let a game available so someone could buy it when you're actually keeping it anyways for people to redownload it!?

If they remove the game, i'm pretty sure you won't be able to redownload it ever. This or Microsoft will become the God of "not making any sense".

 

[Burai]

It's not wild at all to me because why wouldn't you let a game available so someone could buy it when you're actually keeping it anyways for people to redownload it!?

If they remove the game, i'm pretty sure you won't be able to redownload it ever. This or Microsoft will become the God of "not making any sense".

I've downloaded content which is either no longer available or an LE bonus and they've still been available to re-download even if you can't see them on the marketplace. I don't think this will be an issue for existing purchasers. At least not in the short term.

My real worry is what happens to everything when the next Xbox comes out.

 

[Kafel]

This has probably been said about a million times already, but I would probably lower the price for games that aren't selling and offer the games that can't be lowered any further as free downloads. Then I would throw them in a new "free section" to let the selling games further stand out from the clutter.

Free games but throw a few points to the developers if you liked them ?