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Underperforming XBLA titles to be removed
- Thread starter jvm
- Start date
http://www.xblah.net/2008/05/rant-mode-microsoft-to-start-delisting.html
Man that took an awfully long time to write. Please read it
Man that took an awfully long time to write. Please read it
i hope this spread like wildfire, good job Rlan.Rlan said:http://www.xblah.net/2008/05/rant-mode-microsoft-to-start-delisting.html
Man that took an awfully long time to write. Please read it
I think they're kind of on the right track with this, there's a lot of junk games on XBLA and it can be tiring trying to work out which ones are good, and which ones are not.
In my opinion, it'd be far better if they...
1. Re-released this games as a sort of 'XBLA budget' type game. 50 points, or 100 points. Enough to cover the bandwidth costs and a little more, this way they'll still be able to make a profit from the game and people will still be able to play them, everyone wins.
2. Improved the XBLA interface. Not sure if this means people should be able to rate the games themselves, but even something like showing the metacritic score and being able to sort/filter by that would be ace.
In my opinion, it'd be far better if they...
1. Re-released this games as a sort of 'XBLA budget' type game. 50 points, or 100 points. Enough to cover the bandwidth costs and a little more, this way they'll still be able to make a profit from the game and people will still be able to play them, everyone wins.
2. Improved the XBLA interface. Not sure if this means people should be able to rate the games themselves, but even something like showing the metacritic score and being able to sort/filter by that would be ace.
PjotrStroganov
Member
This completely defeats the point of a service like XBLA. I expected to be able to download my game indefinitely because it was linked so nicely to my gamertag. Fixing the DRM is aa good thing but they actually screwed the whole thing up at the same time. I won't be buying XBLA games anymore if what this guy is saying is correct.
Edit: so it seems people are able to redownload their games indefinitely by selecting it from their download history.
Edit: so it seems people are able to redownload their games indefinitely by selecting it from their download history.
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
Dot50Cal said:
It's also not confirmed either.
HocusPocus
Member
Perhaps its a licensing issue where extra fees are required to offer the games beyond a year or two. I dunno 
.
.Thats the thing -- I don't know what they are doing. You would think that they would have specified that you are able to re-download titles if they are removed, but I wont be giving them the benefit of the doubt on that. Until I see it with my own eyes that they will be re-downloadable I'm staying far away from XBLA titles. With Bionic Commando Re-Armed coming up, I'll likely be getting it on PSN and then getting the Next-Gen sequel on PS3 to have the tie in's that it has.
Its a PR disaster, MS needs to clarify this. The longer they let speculation run rampant the worse this is for them.
Its a PR disaster, MS needs to clarify this. The longer they let speculation run rampant the worse this is for them.
From Gamerscoreblog:
Q: If I bought a game, and deleted it, can I redownload it even if it's been delisted?A: Yes, you can. Go to Download History under the Account Management section of marketplace (far left blade).
Q: Can I still play a game after it's been delisted? What about playing online? What about leaderboards?A: Yes, yes, and yes. The game will function normally even after being delisted. You can continue to play the game single and multiplayer, as well as use the leaderboards as you normally would.
http://gamerscoreblog.com/team/archive/2008/05/24/559300.aspx
Q: If I bought a game, and deleted it, can I redownload it even if it's been delisted?A: Yes, you can. Go to Download History under the Account Management section of marketplace (far left blade).
Q: Can I still play a game after it's been delisted? What about playing online? What about leaderboards?A: Yes, yes, and yes. The game will function normally even after being delisted. You can continue to play the game single and multiplayer, as well as use the leaderboards as you normally would.
http://gamerscoreblog.com/team/archive/2008/05/24/559300.aspx
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
Dot50Cal said:
I think they read your post.
;D
BenjaminBirdie said:
Ahaha. Well I feel a bit better now, but its still a bad decision imo. A far better idea would be to redesign the marketplace to accommodate the expanded range of titles. They could just do what the PSN does now. Its very easy to find material based on specific games and such. Or even as others have said, throw the under-performing titles into a bargain bin category.
Does this algorithm take into account people who have auto-download turned on?
Dot50Cal said:
Chances of
-Bionic Commando Re-Armed having a Metacritic score below 65
-Selling at less than 6% conversion rate on XBLA
-After having been on the service for at least 6 months
-Getting pulled off XBLA
AND
-Not being re-downloadable for those who purchased it
0.0000000%
Kill Your Masters
Member
Works for me in some way but yeah, still disagree with this.
Just fix the damn navigation.
Someone give Mr. Whitten my tag!
Great write up on this Rlan also.
Any one got then definative list of games that could end on cutting block with prices?
So many reasons they might be there and an incorrect price point is defiantly one big factor also.
Are they going to allow these struggling titles to price drop to try and recover it for themselves?
So many issue with this just reorg the marketplace MS, you already have have hidden the XBLA downloads.
Fix the cause not the side effects.
Great write up on this Rlan also.
Any one got then definative list of games that could end on cutting block with prices?
So many reasons they might be there and an incorrect price point is defiantly one big factor also.
Are they going to allow these struggling titles to price drop to try and recover it for themselves?
So many issue with this just reorg the marketplace MS, you already have have hidden the XBLA downloads.
Fix the cause not the side effects.
SaggyMonkey
Member
Alright, here's WHY they're idiots.
1. Independent game creators/publishers get a far smaller cut of the revenue than they did before. You're stuck bringing your game to a big publisher to retain more revenue. (not guaranteed)
2. Raising the size cap for the games and pushing for "larger" games, makes the service even more unattractive for the indie dev. This just means you'll end up spending more money on development (larger teams) to remain competitive in the space while also you're given a SMALLER cut from sales.
3. Since the independent XBLA developer/publisher is now getting the revenue shaft (and routed into XNA hobby club scene), they have less marketing money to promote their game and achieve successful conversion rates. And now they want to delist some of these games, which goes back on their initial promise of limitless shelf space, not having to worry about a used game market, etc.
4. The 6% conversion rate is a bullshit stat because consumers don't have access to this data, so who's to know what games we're even worrying about. (not to even open the Metacritic can of worms)
5. Genre limits to the catalog are strange and inconsistent. They'll turn down decent puzzle games because they already have something that kinda looks like it and racing games because "the segment is covered." But, there's seemingly NO limit to the amount of "Move with left stick, 360 degree shoot with right stick" games.
To bring it home, here's a ridiculous Photoshop of Jeff Bell that you may have missed in OT.
Viva la WiiWare!
1. Independent game creators/publishers get a far smaller cut of the revenue than they did before. You're stuck bringing your game to a big publisher to retain more revenue. (not guaranteed)
2. Raising the size cap for the games and pushing for "larger" games, makes the service even more unattractive for the indie dev. This just means you'll end up spending more money on development (larger teams) to remain competitive in the space while also you're given a SMALLER cut from sales.
3. Since the independent XBLA developer/publisher is now getting the revenue shaft (and routed into XNA hobby club scene), they have less marketing money to promote their game and achieve successful conversion rates. And now they want to delist some of these games, which goes back on their initial promise of limitless shelf space, not having to worry about a used game market, etc.
4. The 6% conversion rate is a bullshit stat because consumers don't have access to this data, so who's to know what games we're even worrying about. (not to even open the Metacritic can of worms)
5. Genre limits to the catalog are strange and inconsistent. They'll turn down decent puzzle games because they already have something that kinda looks like it and racing games because "the segment is covered." But, there's seemingly NO limit to the amount of "Move with left stick, 360 degree shoot with right stick" games.
To bring it home, here's a ridiculous Photoshop of Jeff Bell that you may have missed in OT.
Viva la WiiWare!
br0ken_shad0w
Member
Q: Why are you delisting games?
A: We have a LOT of XBLA titles onto the service. By filtering out the lower performing games, it will actually make it easier to find the games you really want.
Fail. Steam has hundreds. iTunes has millions. No excuses.
A: We have a LOT of XBLA titles onto the service. By filtering out the lower performing games, it will actually make it easier to find the games you really want.
Fail. Steam has hundreds. iTunes has millions. No excuses.
found a good list of the chopping block games:
Code:
800 66 2007 3D Ultra Minigolf Adventures (Original)
800 66 2008 Wits & Wagers (Original)
800 65 2005 Bankshot Billiards 2 (Original)
800 65 2006 Feeding Frenzy
800 64 2007 Speedball 2: Brutal Deluxe
800 63 2007 Marathon: Durandal
800 63 2006 Texas Hold 'em (Original)
800 63 2008 Triggerheart Exelica
800 62 2007 Mad Tracks (Original)
800 59 2007 Arkadian Warriors (Original)
800 59 2007 Geon: Emotions (Original)
800 59 2007 Soltrio Solitaire (Original)
800 58 2008 TiQal (Original)
800 57 2008 Rocketmen: Axis of Evil (Original)
800 55 2007 Battlestar Galactica (Original)
800 54 2008 Boogie Bunnies (Original)
800 54 2008 Brain Challenge (Original)
800 51 2007 Wing Commander Arena (Original)
800 50 2006 Novadrome (Original)
800 49 2007 Shrek-N-Roll (Original)
800 48 2008 Mr. Driller Online
800 45 2007 Street Trace: NYC (Original)
800 44 2007 Word Puzzle (Original)
800 40 2007 Screwjumper! (Original)
800 37 2008 Rocky and Bullwinkle (Original)
400 66 2006 Galaga
400 66 2007 Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles
400 65 2006 Dig Dug
400 65 2005 Gauntlet
400 65 2007 Ms. Pac-Man
400 65 2006 Robotron: 2084
400 64 2006 Crystal Quest
400 64 2005 Hardwood Hearts (Original)
400 63 2006 Contra
400 63 2007 Missile Command
400 63 2006 Time Pilot
400 63 2007 Track & Field
400 62 2006 Frogger
400 62 2005 Hardwood Backgammon
400 62 2005 Hardwood Spades
400 62 2006 Pac-Man
400 61 2007 Root Beer Tapper
400 61 2007 Super Contra
400 58 2006 Defender
400 58 2007 Rush'n Attack
400 57 2007 Double Dragon
400 56 2007 Gyruss
400 56 2007 Xevious
400 55 2007 Asteroids / Asteroids Deluxe
400 55 2007 Centipede & Millipede
400 54 2007 Spyglass Board Games (Original)
400 53 2007 Ecco the Dolphin
400 53 2007 Tetris Splash (Original)
400 52 2008 Battlezone
400 51 2007 Yie Ar Kung-Fu
400 47 2006 Scramble
400 47 2007 Tempest
400 44 2008 Discs of Tron
400 43 2006 New Rally-X
400 43 2008 Tron
400 42 2008 Bliss Island (Original)
400 41 2007 Cyberball 2072
Free 58 2007 Aegis Wing (Original)
Free 44 2006 TotemBall (Original)
Free 17 2007 Yaris (Original)Rlan said:http://www.xblah.net/2008/05/rant-mode-microsoft-to-start-delisting.html
Man that took an awfully long time to write. Please read it
I don't agree with all of it, but good writeup.
Gowans007 said:
Where did this come from and how do they know which games are below or near the 6% conversion rate mark?
Actually, I don't buy it. There is no way Texas Hold 'em, Contra, Pac-Man and possibly Gauntlet are below 6%.
Edit: Or is that just a list of all the ~65 Metascore XBLA games? Already posted.
flamesofchaos
Member
Bamihap said:
Not entirely true, the underperforming games will get a new found interest which in turn would lead to more people buying points for those games(if they didn't have them yet) which is money in Microsoft's pocket, and a sales spike of those titles which leads to money in that publishers/developers pocket. Hell the sale doesn't even have to be permanent, they could of just thrown another weekend or weekly sale like they did about a year ago I'm sure those discounted titles got bought at a significantly higher rate than normal.
But the main point is a discounted title while doesn't give as much profit as before, it's still profit. A delisted title drops the potential revenue down to 0 which is what any sane company would avoid. The only thing that costs a company to keep those titles up are server costs but guess what? Microsoft sort of passes on the server costs to us consumers with the xbox live subscription fees and those stupid ads on the dashboard.
Seems like they want to use this as a crap filter. The better solution would just be to implement a user rating system like YouTube and let us filter by that.
I'm guessing you have to launch the game for it to count. That is, afterall, the only way the game gets associated with your Gamercard.
I'm guessing you have to launch the game for it to count. That is, afterall, the only way the game gets associated with your Gamercard.
It seems crazy that after delisting it's still available to re-download if you already bought it, but someone else can't buy it outright? So my friend sees i have a great game that's delisted, and he can't go out and buy it, even though it's still on the XBLA server?
This has nothing to do about space or bandwidth, this is all about giving you less choices so that the newer and high profile titles have a chance to sell, this is all about XBLA being what the publishers need it to be. As everyone in here has said they could make an "older games section" and throw these games in there.
And to those suggesting they discount these delisted games, hah, they are delisting them so you don't take sales away from newer XBLA games, so they sure as hell aren't going to lower the price.
This has nothing to do about space or bandwidth, this is all about giving you less choices so that the newer and high profile titles have a chance to sell, this is all about XBLA being what the publishers need it to be. As everyone in here has said they could make an "older games section" and throw these games in there.
And to those suggesting they discount these delisted games, hah, they are delisting them so you don't take sales away from newer XBLA games, so they sure as hell aren't going to lower the price.
a Master Ninja
Member
Honestly, this is all I really cared about.Gamerscoreblog said:
SaggyMonkey
Member
My claim wasn't that game quality is determined by larger/smaller games, only a rising amount of costs involved if that's where the barrier of entry is trending.
And I'm also not saying that delisting alone is the only reason they're "idiots" (as Microsoft puts it.) I'm saying it's disappointing that several factors are squeezing the attractiveness out of the platform for that segment of developer. There's a pretty big difference in the risk you want to take if your game costs $250k or $1m to make on that platform. As your cut shrinks, there's simply more incentive to build the same stuff over and over that sells and lower your investment risk.
If the game is commercially viable or not is another story, there's obviously other factors involved. And you'll get no argument from me that Rocketmen is not a heap of shit.
a Master Ninja said:
Exactly, I still don't think this is the right solution to the problem, but after reading that my displeasure has turned into indifference.
Edit: Instead of complaining about this, people should be a lot more upset about Microsoft stupidly rejecting Portal and Cave shooters...
Ninja Scooter
Member
a Master Ninja said:
it sounds like the whole "delisting" thing is just going to remove the option to buy the game from the marketplace, but everything else will remain the same for people who already own it, and MS will keep it on their servers. Which is still a puzzling idea, but i guess MS is trying to clean up the clutter?
brain_stew
Member
Great, so now developers have to factor in paying off a couple of online review outlets into the cost of development of XBLA titles.
They could always, just, you know, design an efficient interface? You've got to realise something is severely wrong with your interface when you have to start delisting titles to make it useable.
Ninja Scooter said:
They could always, just, you know, design an efficient interface? You've got to realise something is severely wrong with your interface when you have to start delisting titles to make it useable.
Scottlarock
Banned
that would be awesome, I've bought several 'Arcade Hits' games because they are cheaper.Kafel said:
MirageDwarf
Member
Well, what else should we call for thinking that delisting is the only option to fix this problem? If active game lists is clusterfuck, easiest solution would be to create new category, let's call it vault or archive. And there is no need to put this link as part of main active interface. Just provide one way to access it if somebody wants it.
I think this another cheap idea to create FUD and increase sales.
65% seems way too high a cutoff point. That's a better than average game! If they're trying to cut out the crap, make the cutoff point 50%. They are pretty much ignoring the casual section by making the bar so high. Look at something like TiQal. It's not a great game by any stretch, but for someone who is just getting into puzzles games, it's really fun. But the people reviewing it (for the most part) have played a hundred block games before and are punishing TiQal for not being unique. Do you think casual Xbox users care if it's unique? No! They just want something fun and simple. MS is making a serious mistake with this.
The Faceless Master
Member
.
Dr Zhivago
Member
I get the impression MS want XBLA to be the domain of the big publishers, with the weird indie stuff being pushed onto XNA.
Also, according to someone I know who used to do downloadable PC titles, 6% is a high conversion rate - might be different for the 360 of course.
Also, according to someone I know who used to do downloadable PC titles, 6% is a high conversion rate - might be different for the 360 of course.
StorablePrawn
Banned
An ultra-budget bargain bin doesn't seem attractive to them? I'm really trying hard not to reference the FIFTY DOLLARS A YEAR FOR XBL thing...
Alright. I will. I think Microsoft can afford to keep titles available, and should use their heads regarding where they PUT those titles, because I PAY FIFTY DOLLARS A YEAR FOR XBL, and who knows, maybe I'll end up wanting to play some strange game that the rest of the world shunned, and I might even like it.
Alright. I will. I think Microsoft can afford to keep titles available, and should use their heads regarding where they PUT those titles, because I PAY FIFTY DOLLARS A YEAR FOR XBL, and who knows, maybe I'll end up wanting to play some strange game that the rest of the world shunned, and I might even like it.
kenta said:
I think that would be a great idea... I can only guess that they don't do that because they're afraid those games will compete with newer, more expensive titles... or that people will try to wait games out or something...
But IMO, putting a "bargain bin" category on XBLA, where that's the only place you can find the stuff, at 75% off (100-200 pts) would be amazing to me... although based on the criteria, it could all be crap.
No wait, I'd probably pick up Cyberball (Metacritic: 41% - ouch) for 100 pts. Probably get Track & Field, too.
EDIT: I don't now how I didn't see this thread was 14 pages long when I posted..
PhlivoSong
Member
De-listing games strikes me as laziness. Eventually they will get to the point again where there is too much "stuff." Getting rid of stuff that is already on there is only a temporary solution. They need new ways to filter, sort, and view content. They need to tell people which games would appeal to them so they don't have to go searching for it themselves. I'm very curious to see if the Yaris game will get taken down since it's only up there because an advertiser paid for it.
Relying on Metacritic for part of the determination metric is an entirely different problem...
Relying on Metacritic for part of the determination metric is an entirely different problem...
PhlivoSong said:
Microsoft needs to take a few lessons from the likes of PC Download Services like Steam and Gametap, start organizing games by publisher or genre and so on and have the corresponding tabs.
Also, I am not entirely convinced that Microsoft will go through with this, oh sure, they talk bold now and are in PR Mode, but I still think that the backlash will be too much for them.