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[Tabris]

I have recently been following a local city planner's twitter account and he has been posting the costs of the urban sprawl and car culture vs the savings of urban densification and a walking / transit culture - and I completely agree that we as a society need to move towards urban densification. Especially when you consider the environmental impact the urban sprawl has. Also when you consider things like the water shortage in California (which is almost all urban sprawl). So I've been asking myself what is everyone's hang up... That's why I'm asking here.

Just to get these out of the way:

- Modern buildings are basically soundproof. I cannot hear my neighbours and they cannot hear me. I can only hear noise if I open my windows.

- Assuming urban densification included local parks within 5 blocks everywhere, which is common in most green cities like Vancouver, as well as things like the buildings own nature settings (my building has trees planted on the roof for example) and trees planted on the streets.

What is your hold up on living in a condo? Why do you need a lawn?

EDIT - Here is an interesting video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQfC6mKTErg

 

[GrizzNKev]

- Modern buildings are basically soundproof. I cannot hear my neighbours and they cannot hear me. I can only hear noise if I open my windows.

I hate having to listen to all the noise my neighbors make. Stomping around, yelling, I can hear them urinate. That's why I should have a lawn.

 

[Tabris]

I hate having to listen to all the noise my neighbors make. Stomping around, yelling, I can hear them urinate. That's why I should have a lawn.

Did you read my OP?

 

[Yaboosh]

Shared walls are the fucking worst.

 

[gutter_trash]

you can afford a condo in Vancouver?

 

[titiklabingapat]

It's funny, urban density used to be the classic example of development that embodied filthiness and pollution. Now, it's the epitome of efficiency and green-ness compared to sprawl.

It's the future if we are to live sustainably.

 

[Orbis Tabula]

I don't think I am against it. I really like the idea of living in a city, especially a really well designed city. Maybe some day I can look forward to that.

 

[GrizzNKev]

Did you read my OP?

I was refuting your claim. I edited in a quote. Evidence: my current living situation.

 

[Yaboosh]

Did you read my OP?

Assuming you can't hear neighbors is fallacious just because a building is modern. Noise is a perfectly valid reason to avoid condos.

 

[Tabris]

you can afford a condo in Vancouver?

Much cheaper than a house. My 1 bedroom condo is $500k. Equivalent lifestyle (view, building quality, area) for a house would be like $3-4m in Vancouver

 

[gutter_trash]

Assuming you can't hear neighbors is fallacious just because a building is modern. Noise is a perfectly valid reason to avoid condos.

yup, pretty much this. Only a minority of a minoirty of new buildings are sound proof.

Many new buildings are cheapily built

Much cheaper than a house. My 1 bedroom condo is $500k. Equivalent lifestyle (view, building quality, area) for a house would be like $3-4m in Vancouver

LOL, I will keep my $130k 1 bedroom condo in Montreal.

Vancouver is so fucked up for housing

 

[Dr_Boris_Goltz]

I'd love to live in a dense city, but it's too expensive.

 

[Veelk]

Did you read my OP?

Congratulations on having a 'modern' building, but not everyone is lucky enough to have that option.

As for me though, I just flat out don't like cities. I don't know of how one would 'need' a lawn or backyard, but I goddamn well want one.

 

[bearythebear]

I really want to see some extreme blade-runner type shit. Stuff like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shimizu_Mega-City_Pyramid


Basically, I wanna take an elevator down to work, and then another elevator for grocery, and then back to my unit.

 

[Marty Chinn]

Why would I give up my house for a shared wall living space? Why would I give up my backyard and front yard where my kids can run around and play in? I'd be downgrading where I live by doing so.

 

[Irnbru]

I'll take my almost certain suburbia thank you.

 

[Tabris]

I was refuting your claim. I edited in a quote. Evidence: my current living situation.

Assuming you can't hear neighbors is fallacious just because a building is modern. Noise is a perfectly valid reason to avoid condos.

Then you are living in some poorly constructed condos. Modern skyscraper condos are built with concrete between floors and steel walls with soundproofing drywall/fibreglass.

I have lived in skyscraper condos since I was 18. I have never heard my neighbours unless I had windows open or they were doing heavy construction or something. And there's rules around noise in every strata.

 

[Randolph Freelander]

I would rather live in or around downtown Charlotte (known locally as "uptown").

However, the prices are ridiculous (in relative terms, they're probably still excellent compared to the rest of the country). Condos in the center city sell for 2-3x the price for comparable living space on the edge of the city. At this point in my life, I'm not ready to pay that much extra and/or live a cramped existence.

As for a lawn, I certainly neither want nor need that. That's why I live in a townhouse where the grass is not my concern.

 

[Yaboosh]

Then you are living in some poorly constructed condos. Modern skyscraper condos are built with concrete between floors and steel walls with soundproofing drywall/fibreglass.

I have lived in skyscraper condos since I was 18. I have never heard my neighbours unless I had windows open or they were doing heavy construction or something. And there's rules around noise in every strata.

I can watch a movie at midnight with my sub booming and not have to worry. I like that. A lot.

 

[FUME5]

Where is my dog going to shit?

Seriously though, remove all those lawns and you have a whole lot of heat being reflected off man made surfaces, can also lead to problems with flooding etc...

Basically, it would need a lot of intelligent planning to work, a quality I find in short supply when it comes to councils.

 

[Tabris]

I would rather live in or around downtown Charlotte (known locally as "uptown").

However, the prices are ridiculous (in relative terms, they're probably still excellent compared to the rest of the country). Condos in the center city sell for 2-3x the price for comparable living space on the edge of the city. At this point in my life, I'm not ready to pay that much extra and/or live a cramped existence.

They wouldn't be expensive - they would be cheaper - if everywhere densified. The issue with cost is the land, but when the land is all equal - house vs condo, condo will be much cheaper.

 

[riotous]

I like having space; you can take my lawn but not my billiards room.

Cities also cause concentrations of waste and pollution that damage waterways as well as concentrated air pollution. It's not all environmental roses for dense urbanization.

I do agree that things like golf courses and massive lawns are kind of gross; but so is say... Just about every water way with a major city perched next to it.

 

[CrimzonSamurai]

I think it's probably a social mass psychological hangover from the days when everyone just crapped in a pot in their house.

I mean, people can usually hand their own stink, but your neighbor's? Gross.

 

[titiklabingapat]

Where is my dog going to shit?

Seriously though, remove all those lawns and you have a whole lot of heat being reflected off man made surfaces, can also lead to problems with flooding etc...

Basically, it would need a lot of intelligent planning to work, a quality I find in short supply when it comes to councils.

I like having space; you can take my lawn but not my billiards room.

Cities also cause concentrations of waste and pollution that damage waterways as well as concentrated air pollution. It's not all environmental roses for dense urbanization.

I do agree that things like golf courses and massive lawns are kind of gross; but so is say... Just about every water way with a major city perched next to it.

Per capita, this is actually desirable. A person in a city will still create a lot less waste than someone in suburbia. Have those dark man-made objects absorb heat in a small slice of land compared to having them everywhere like in suburban asphalt parking lots and roads.

And these can be easilly mitigated by having green roofs or bright paint.

 

[entremet]

I'm with you, OP. I so prefer living in cities.

Love that I don't need a car and that I can get to everything in my neighborhood on foot.

Suburban sprawl is terrible for the environment and it's woefully inefficient.

 

[Tabris]

Where is my dog going to shit?

Seriously though, remove all those lawns and you have a whole lot of heat being reflected off man made surfaces, can also lead to problems with flooding etc...

Basically, it would need a lot of intelligent planning to work, a quality I find in short supply when it comes to councils.

You're removing those lawns and homes and returning that land to nature / agriculture, which would increase the amount of trees and greenery processing CO2 in the environment.

Also many modern buildings nowadays are built carbon neutral. At least in modern cities like Vancouver, NY, Tokyo, etc.

Very few homes are carbon neutral.

 

[WorldStar]

Also when you consider things like the water shortage in California (which is almost all urban sprawl).

except it's not the result of urban sprawl

like, at all

if you actually took the time to bother looking up citations you'd realize how stupid you sound

 

[gutter_trash]

skyscrapper condos suck, and they are fuckin' flooding disaster waiting to happen

all you need is one moron in the building who sets off the sprinklers and all the people below him will get fucked

 

[Kieli]

Then you are living in some poorly constructed condos. Modern skyscraper condos are built with concrete between floors and steel walls with soundproofing drywall/fibreglass.

I have lived in skyscraper condos since I was 18. I have never heard my neighbours unless I had windows open or they were doing heavy construction or something. And there's rules around noise in every strata.

Yeah, just like 95% of the rest of the condos.

Dude, wtf.

 

[Tabris]

I like having space; you can take my lawn but not my billiards room.

Cities also cause concentrations of waste and pollution that damage waterways as well as concentrated air pollution. It's not all environmental roses for dense urbanization.

I do agree that things like golf courses and massive lawns are kind of gross; but so is say... Just about every water way with a major city perched next to it.

Many buildings have large shared rec rooms with things like billiards (mine is on the 43rd floor of a building with amazing views), or you are usually close to things like a local pub being in a dense area? Is it a situation where you don't want to be around people?

 

[Marty Chinn]

You're removing those lawns and homes and returning that land to nature / agriculture, which would increase the amount of trees and greenery processing CO2 in the environment.

Also many modern buildings nowadays are built carbon neutral. At least in modern cities like Vancouver, NY, Tokyo, etc.

Very few homes are carbon neutral.

You realize every building isn't modern right? Many are old.

 

[Tabris]

except it's not the result of urban sprawl

like, at all

if you actually took the time to bother looking up citations you'd realize how stupid you sound

If you read my statement again, you would see I said California is almost all urban-sprawl, not that the water shortage is a result of urban-sprawl. My parentheses statement is after the word California.

 

[titiklabingapat]

except it's not the result of urban sprawl

like, at all

if you actually took the time to bother looking up citations you'd realize how stupid you sound

Well, they aren't helping. The biggest user of water allocated to urban use are exurbs, suburbs and sprawling richer places so OP has a point. Now imagine if all those in dense areas (SF, West side of LA, downtown SD) try to live in suburbia style living arrnagements covering more than a third of the state. It would be catastrophic.

 

[riotous]

Also many modern buildings nowadays are built carbon neutral. At least in modern cities like Vancouver, NY, Tokyo, etc.

Yes and buildings before them torn down; just like when those new buildings aren't trendy anymore they'll be torn down. At the very least the interiors many times over.

Pretending dense urban areas are all made from sound proof Eco-safe friendly green shade grown fair trade materials that will last forever is ridiculous.

 

[elfinke]

I can't relate to living in Vancouver, or any other large city. But I live in small regional town of about 20,000 people in Australia. I have a 1000m2 block of land, with a three bedroom house and a stack of lawn that I lovingly curate all year round.

You couldn't pay me enough to swap that for apartment/condo living. Not for all the monies.

 

[RELAYER]

I want to live on about 20 acres where I can take care of my property and live far the fuck away from everyone else.

 

[Tabris]

You realize every building isn't modern right? Many are old.

But we're talking about a situation of replacing current urban sprawl with urban densification. Which would mean modern buildings. Thus why someone is against that?

 

[Man God]

Air quality is an issue for me. Not as bad when I was a kid and just taking a trip to a major city would leave me gasping but it still leaves me uncomfortable when I visit one.

That and I live right next to a sprawling forest and much prefer natural noises to city ones.

 

[Tabris]

You couldn't pay me enough to swap that for apartment/condo living. Not for all the monies.

This thread is about asking the why? What's your reason. So far the answers I have are:

1) I don't like noise
2) I don't like other people
3) I want my own space
4) It's too expensive
5) Air quality

 

[riotous]

Many buildings have large shared rec rooms with things like billiards (mine is on the 43rd floor of a building with amazing views), or you are usually close to things like a local pub being in a dense area? Is it a situation where you don't want to be around people?

I get both. I'm 8-10 minutes from all the bars I want but own a 2700 square foot house; the rent in the city (Seattle) equal to my mortgage would get me a small apartment. Also have better access to grocery stores and better access to a variety of commutes since I do contract work.

But no, I don't want to share my recreational spce at all times with other people.

 

[TheSeks]

I'm with you, OP. I'd prefer living in a city with a reasonable cost of living and low crime than Urban Sprawl/suburbs that are supposed to lower crime but at the sake of having to drive everywhere.

The major problem though, is codes and councils. That and a lot of older people don't really want to live in a city with good public transport/etc. it seems.

 

[Randolph Freelander]

They wouldn't be expensive - they would be cheaper - if everywhere densified. The issue with cost is the land, but when the land is all equal - house vs condo, condo will be much cheaper.

You're going into the realm of completely uniform supply, demand, and amenities, and that's not the world we live in. The world we live in -- and, specifically, the city where I had to make my choice of where to live -- denser urban living is simply much more expensive, and I chose to prioritize my spending (and saving!) differently.

 

[minx]

I will never live in a condo. Never have lived in a apartment. Shared walls of a townhouse are bad enough. I want a yard so that I can take care of it, watch my future kids play in it, play catch, etc. Until 18 I lived on 5 acres with a 5 acre pond. It was amazing to just go outside and play without having to worry about other people, cars, noise, etc.

 

[WorldStar]

Well, they aren't helping. The biggest user of urban water are exurbs, suburbs and sprawling richer places so OP has a point.

what the fuck is "urban water"? what an incredibly stupid statement. water is water, and in California, agriculture is to blame. especially when you examine California's GDP:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_California

 

[Random Painted HIghway]

I live in midtown houston, 10-15 minutes of street travel to my office on the other side of downtown houston. it is spectacular. have a shared wall, but do not hear my neighbors whatsoever. Oh, and the value has increased by about 1/3 since buying in 2012. Yeah, this second kid on the way is going to send us to the burbs, unfortunately.

 

[Tabris]

BTW, one of the biggest reasons for obesity is the amount people drive vs walk over the last couple of generations due to the urban sprawl.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

you can afford a condo in Vancouver?

To be fair, when a lot of people saying they can afford a condo in Vancouver, it's generally a lousy $1,300 one and not a good one or they purchased / rent one in Burnaby, Richmond, Surrey, etc..

 

[Marty Chinn]

I'm with you, OP. I so prefer living in cities.

Love that I don't need a car and that I can get to everything in my neighborhood on foot.

Suburban sprawl is terrible for the environment and it's woefully inefficient.

I've never understood how this worked when you have a family. How do you take two kids and carry several bags of groceries when you're just walking to the local grocery store? For me, I throw the kids in the car and I can store several bags of groceries in the trunk.

This thread is about asking the why? What's your reason. So far the answers I have are:

1) I don't like noise
2) I don't like other people
3) I want my own space
4) It's too expensive
5) Air quality

How is noise, space, and air quality not valid reasons? How about a place for the kids to play and run around in? How about the ability to grill outside?

 

[titiklabingapat]

You're going into the realm of completely uniform supply, demand, and amenities, and that's not the world we live in. The world we live in -- and, specifically, the city where I had to make my choice of where to live -- denser urban living is simply much more expensive, and I chose to prioritize my spending (and saving!) differently.

This will probably change as the upper market becomes saturated and land values continue to increase.

Right now, a combination these are conspiring against affordability:

1) foreign money (lots of newly rich people from developing countries)

2) archaic laws and Nimbyism

3) market demand

Cities are at least taking notice. Change will have to happen sooner or later and I'm confident that the affordability issue will be solved down the line (probably by creating more supply). Even NIMBYism cannot stand in the way of money as land values increasingly go up.

 

[freenudemacusers]

I like having a yard tho. i like seeing the stars at night. I like the crisp quiet air as I chill on my porch.