• Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!

Usage Based Billing approved, Canadian govt shoots it down, more developments to come

Slavik81 said:
I doubt they actually prepare for that possibility. They probably base it on statistical analysis of normal usage patterns, and ensure that something like 99.99% of the time they won't have to throttle traffic. If they did build infrastructure for 100% utilization, the network would be almost entirely unused all the time, and therefore an incredible waste.

UBB could help manage network load by having costs vary dynamically. Bandwidth during off-peak hours could be cheaper, encouraging people to make large transfers during other times. For the most part, I'd expect the impact to be very small on minor users, but large companies might choose to transfer backups off-site at cheaper times, or stuff like that.

We're trying to move towards that sort of system for electricity. That's part of the point of the 'smart grid'. Do energy-intensive things at night when it doesn't contribute to peak-power. Like processing aluminum and such. In fact, I'd bet that big electricity users already have deals of that sort.

Right, I was being a bit hyperbolic to make a point, but regardless it is safe to assume that their statistics show they can sell specific speeds that will not crash the system. The quantity transferred is a function of both speed and time, so the variable that should be debated at any given time is the transfer speed. We seem to be more fixated on quantity over time though which definitely gives the impression that this is all a money grab.

With the Smart meters we are likely just going to see a shift in peak usage times over a longer period of time so the hydro compaines will have to keep sending out updated time charts to compensate. Or they could stagger time allotments within a given local area... Something like this for internet usage would probably work as well, but that would require that users pay a price-per-unit rather than buy allotment packages.
 
Slavik81 said:
Thanks for taking the time to write that. For what it's worth, this post improved my opinion of you immensely.

Politics so often descends into people insulting each other and shouting past each other. This sort of discourse is so much better.
It's alright, I know I'm an asshole sometimes regardless :lol
 
I'm jailbreaking my iPhone to try out the cool W7 theme and just re-downloaded the iOS 4.2.1 firmware forgetting I didn't need it. 300MB gone in about 5 mins. Normally I wouldn't give a damn but now that I'm on Rogers and need to share bandwidth with four college students, this just put me in a foul mood >=[
 
Firestorm said:
I'm jailbreaking my iPhone to try out the cool W7 theme and just re-downloaded the iOS 4.2.1 firmware forgetting I didn't need it. 300MB gone in about 5 mins. Normally I wouldn't give a damn but now that I'm on Rogers and need to share bandwidth with four college students, this just put me in a foul mood >=[

Sir, thatll be 50 cents
 
There is absolutely no way to defend the actions of Bell, Rogers, et all. They keep saying how they don't have enough bandwidth, bandwidth is so expensive, yet contradictorily say how so few users actually use or go over their caps. Then they keep lowering the caps and charging more?

AND THEN all of a sudden, we now have "insurance" options to purchase (Bell) a MASSIVE 40gb bandwidth increase for a measly 5 bucks, which only a few months ago would have cost another $40 on top of your monthly?

So what is it? Is bandwidth expensive or not?
 
I really want to explore having a business line put in at home. Better speeds, higher caps, lower prices.

And I expect a lot of people, especially students, are going to be using hotspots and their University's internet for large downloads when possible.
 
MoFuzz said:
In fact, they just started it up earlier this month. I don't think it's on the main page for some reason, you have to use this link:

http://new.teksavvy.com/en/res-internet.asp
Eh? Is that unaffected by UBB? Not sure if my landlord's already on DSL or not...

edit: uh, are you sure they offer CABLE in Vancouver? I'm not seeing it.

double edit: nevermind, I'm a derpus, out here TekSavvy uses Telus hardware, so for the moment I don't have to worry about this UBB shit.
 
mugwhump said:
Eh? Is that unaffected by UBB? Not sure if my landlord's already on DSL or not...

Not unaffected, they simply choose not to jump on the UBB bandwagon.

They're likely seeing if it's successful, and what the backlash is.
 
Bunch of people got this email reply from Harper today including myself:

On behalf of the Right Honourable Stephen Harper, I would like to thank you for your e-mail, in which you raised an issue which falls within the portfolio of the Honourable Tony Clement, Minister of Industry.

Please be assured that the statements you made have been carefully reviewed. I have taken the liberty of forwarding your e-mail to Minister Clement, so that he too may be made aware of your comments. I am certain that the Minister will give your views every consideration. For more information on the Government's initiatives, you may wish to visit the Prime Minister's Web site, at www.pm.gc.ca.

M.F. Bustos
Manager/Gestionnaire
Executive Correspondence Services
for the Prime Minister's Office
Services de la correspondance
de la haute direction
pour le Cabinet du Premier ministre
 
criesofthepast said:
Bunch of people got this email reply from Harper today including myself:

On behalf of the Right Honourable Stephen Harper, I would like to thank you for your e-mail, in which you raised an issue which falls within the portfolio of the Honourable Tony Clement, Minister of Industry.

Please be assured that the statements you made have been carefully reviewed. I have taken the liberty of forwarding your e-mail to Minister Clement, so that he too may be made aware of your comments. I am certain that the Minister will give your views every consideration. For more information on the Government's initiatives, you may wish to visit the Prime Minister's Web site, at www.pm.gc.ca.

M.F. Bustos
Manager/Gestionnaire
Executive Correspondence Services
for the Prime Minister's Office
Services de la correspondance
de la haute direction
pour le Cabinet du Premier ministre
Dear [firstname] [lastname],

I've forwarded you to Mr. Clements spam folder.

Thanks for your interest in politics.
 
typo said:
At the very least, we've got their attention. Now will they act on it?...
Well.

Considering it seems to be young people who are most up in arms about it... and it's also young people who are the worst voters... :[
 
WEGGLES said:
Dear [firstname] [lastname],

I've forwarded you to Mr. Clements spam folder.

Thanks for your interest in politics.

blah blah blah internet blah blah blah.. but look a kitten!

lo6lG.jpg
 
http://openmedia.ca/blog/liberals-come-out-support-stop-meter

http://www.cbc.ca/technology/story/...rnet-usage-based-billing-clement-garneau.html

A CRTC decision that will force small internet service providers to restrict the internet service plans available to their customers should be reversed by the federal government, says the Liberal Party of Canada.

'We consider this decision to be anti-competitive because it does penalize the small internet service providers,' said Liberal technology critic Marc Garneau, shown here in a 2008 photo. (Canadian Press)"We consider this decision to be anti-competitive, because it does penalize the small internet service providers," said Marc Garneau, Liberal technology critic and MP for Westmount-Ville Marie, Monday.


"We hope that the current government will review the CRTC decision and reverse it."

Many smaller internet service providers rent network access from large ISPs such as Bell and use it to create retail internet service packages to sell to their own customers.

Until now, some of those packages have included unlimited internet access — something that isn't offered by Bell, Rogers or Shaw to their retail customers. Others have offered much higher download limits than Bell, allowing their customers to stream more video or other services that use a lot of bandwidth.

Large ISPs like Bell and Rogers said usage-based caps are necessary to prevent heavy internet users from hogging too much bandwidth and causing congestion.

The Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission agreed that usage-based billing addresses the problem. It ruled last week that Bell could charge its wholesale customers, mostly smaller internet service providers, based on the same usage-based billing schemes as it uses for its retail customers, provided the wholesale customers get a 15 per discount relative to Bell's retail customers.

It also ruled that the new usage-based billing should be implemented starting March 1.

Ontario and Quebec customers of small ISPs such as Chatham, Ont.-based Teksavvy are being notified that because of the decision, their internet packages are changing on March 1. Some Ontario customers will only be able to use 25 gigabytes per month instead of 200 gigabytes, and unlimited internet plans will no longer be available. If customers exceed the new caps, they will have to pay hefty surcharges. Bell customers currently pay $1 to $2.50 per gigabyte over the limit up to a maximum of $60 per month.

The ruling has upset many customers and consumer advocacy groups.

As of Monday, 160,000 Canadians had signed an online petition created by the open communications advocacy group OpenMedia.ca, calling for the government to "Stop the Meter."

Government studying decision: Clement

Last Thursday, a Montreal man filed a petition to the federal government, asking it to reverse the CRTC decision.

In a statement Monday, Industry Minister Tony Clement said he was aware of an appeal by a 'market participant.'

"I can assure that, as with any ruling, this decision will be studied carefully to ensure that competition, innovation and consumers were all fairly considered," the statement added.

Charlie Angus, technology critic for the NDP, has previously stated his opposition to usage-based billing, which he believes could hurt many Canadians financially.

On Monday, Angus, who is also the MP for Timmins-James Bay, reiterated his concerns.

"I think there's serious problems with the decision," he said. "Small business, students, people trying to set up online businesses — they're getting hammered."

He added that his phone has been ringing off the hook with calls from people concerned about the issue.


Like Garneau, Angus believes the decision is anti-competitive, and not just because of the way it affects smaller internet service providers.

He said the bandwidth caps will discourage people from exploring new alternatives to Bell, Rogers and Shaw's television services.


As an example, he pointed to Netflix which allows people to stream high-definition movies through the internet to their TVs via devices like the Sony Playstation 3.

"Now they're it's not going to be financially worth their while to explore these new media offerings, so they'll end up back in the hands of the ISPs who are also the content providers."

He added that the large ISPs are "wearing way too many hats on this file."

Angus wouldn't go as far as to call for a reversal of the CRTC decision, but said his party would "hold CRTC to account that their primary objective should be ensuring the public interest is protected whenever these decisions are made."
 
bishoptl said:
I would love for Telus et al to leave Bell at the altar and scoop up their angry customers.
Unfortunately they don't serve any of the same markets. They're literally not competitors when it comes to home internet. We only have 2 ISPs in Canada since Telus/Bell and Shaw/Rogers are never in the same province... Not sure on the prairies as they have their crown telecom companies.
 
bishoptl said:
I would love for Telus et al to leave Bell at the altar and scoop up their angry customers.
Yeah, this I don't get. Surely the influx if new customers would more than offset the "costs" of all the additional bandwidth they would require.

Wouldn't it make a heap of sense to say "Hey! You know that shitty thing bell does you hate? Well WE don't!"

[tinfoilhat] I think Bell and Rogers are in cahoots![/tinfoilhat]
 
WEGGLES said:
Yeah, this I don't get. Surely the influx if new customers would more than offset the "costs" of all the additional bandwidth they would require.

Wouldn't it make a heap of sense to say "Hey! You know that shitty thing bell does you hate? Well WE don't!"

[tinfoilhat] I think Bell and Rogers are in cahoots![/tinfoilhat]

It's no secret, the big 3 have been colluding for years and we can thank the government for condoning it. This corporatocrasy that is becoming a larger problem north of the border now is really starting to piss me off. CRTC will pretty much be my central voting issue next election.
 
Shambles said:
It's no secret, the big 3 have been colluding for years and we can thank the government for condoning it. This corporatocrasy that is becoming a larger problem north of the border now is really starting to piss me off. CRTC will pretty much be my central voting issue next election.
Figured that out when my parents were like "Our phone/tv/mobile stuff is so expensive"

The checked all other options available... same everything. prices packages etc etc. :\

Everywhere has essentially the same phone plans at the same prices.

The same TV packages at the same prices.

The same internet at the same prices.
 
WEGGLES said:
Figured that out when my parents were like "Our phone/tv/mobile stuff is so expensive"

The checked all other options available... same everything. prices packages etc etc. :\

Everywhere has essentially the same phone plans at the same prices.

The same TV packages at the same prices.

The same internet at the same prices.

Yup. Capitalism only works when there is actually competition.
 
Shaw and Telus are actually pretty competitive in BC and AB. $10 per service if you're a new customer on a year contract with Telus and no contract on Shaw. Once you're done, you flip and then back! Their retentions plans aren't too bad too if you're like me and don't like switching... I hear they're trying to get away from that though.

Really, at present, it's Ontario and Quebec which completely blow now that indie ISPs have been pushed out from providing that type of service.
 
I'm happy to support Eastlink. They may cap their 30-100mbps options (reasonable caps at that) but they offer a fair unlimited option as well.
 
however Bell even stated that current average monthly consumption is 16GB per household

bell VP was on a cbc podcast. he says a majority of their users use single digits per month. so 1-9GB/month. i guess over 90% of their users dont download movies, music, porn or watch streaming content.
 
big_z said:
bell VP was on a cbc podcast. he says a majority of their users use single digits per month. so 1-9GB/month. i guess over 90% of their users dont download movies, music, porn or watch streaming content.

Or don't have High Speed Internet installed at all?
 
ruby_onix said:
Telus doesn't currently have the hardware to charge UBB on all it's customers (they've got some of it though). That kind of hardware costs money. They won't buy it until they're sure they want it.

Telus is officially behind Bell 100% on this, but they're willing to let Bell stick their neck out first. If Bell's neck gets chopped off, Telus will say "Hmm... interesting" and then go back to what they were doing before. If Bell starts looting and pillaging and nobody stops them, Telus will join in the fun.

Shaw and Rogers have all the equipment, and already have caps, and they already reduced their caps a little to try and choke Netflix out of Canada because it competes with cable TV, but the Bell situation will either embolden them or put some fear into them, depending on how it turns out.
Wow, thanks. What a bunch of bullshit.
 
Figures provided by the company indicate half of all retail customers use less than five gigabytes (5GB) a month, a relatively small amount by today’s standards. “Heavy users” drag the overall average up to 16GB.
That's pretty shocking, considering that 56k (yes, that 56k, the modem screeching song of the 1980's) is 16.4GB.

UBB is one part Bell's cash grab and another part Bell's attempt at behavior modification, and the behavior they're trying to create is literally sub-56k. Mind boggling. Oh noes, there won't be any Internet left in that fibre optic cable for grandma's email if the guy down the block watches some HD porn.

Oh and, if anyone is still thinking that UBB is anything less than flat-out wrong, please read the petition that was sent in to the government. It's a bit long and dry, not easy reading by any stretch, but just read what you can of it, because it clearly and factually tears Bell and the CRTC to shreds over and over again. Our little arguments and analogies are almost nothing compared to this.
 
It seems like there's no downside for Bell or Rogers here. They get to keep their throttling, tiny caps, and ridiculous overages against their own customers, and apply the same treatment to resellers like Teksavvy. It's not like they're agreeing to loosen up on their own customers as a compromise.
 
If congestion is the reason for caps, and only 10% of their users use more than 10GB per month--and let's assume that all 10% of those users max their connections 24/7, which isn't true, then they are arguing that they don't have sufficient capacity for 10% of their users to concurrently max their connections. That's... pretty oversold.
 
criesofthepast said:
Bunch of people got this email reply from Harper today including myself:

On behalf of the Right Honourable Stephen Harper, I would like to thank you for your e-mail, in which you raised an issue which falls within the portfolio of the Honourable Tony Clement, Minister of Industry.

Please be assured that the statements you made have been carefully reviewed. I have taken the liberty of forwarding your e-mail to Minister Clement, so that he too may be made aware of your comments. I am certain that the Minister will give your views every consideration. For more information on the Government's initiatives, you may wish to visit the Prime Minister's Web site, at www.pm.gc.ca.

M.F. Bustos
Manager/Gestionnaire
Executive Correspondence Services
for the Prime Minister's Office
Services de la correspondance
de la haute direction
pour le Cabinet du Premier ministre


Nice PFO letter.
 
Jinaar said:
http://www.liberal.ca/ubb/

Liberals have a website against the UBB.

Holy Shit, they are using this as their platform to win the next election.

That just might work.

Edit: I hope this ends with Rogers and Bell being forced to remove their bandwidth caps. The small companies having larger caps didn't seem to have too much impact.

Lobbying for this decision strikes me as "we're making 18 dump trucks full of money a month right now and we want to make it 19" and not "We're losing customers left and right to these guys".
 
I case anyone is looking for an alternative in Ontario, my roommates and I are investigating yak.ca.

They have a 35$ (+ 3$ modem rental)/month for 10mbps down, unlimited. Apparently they are separate from Bell so no UBB.
 
Top Bottom