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[theBishop]

Recently, ******* interviewed Mark Rein of Epic about Halo mods in the PS3 version of UT3. As obvious as it is, it blew my mind. I seriously hadn't considered the idea.

In LittleBigPlanet's promotional material, there is an image of possible outfits for dressing up your Sackboy:

So you can see even Media Molecule is already advertising the potential for Trademark infringement.

Obviously appreciation of classic series transcend the business of platform exclusivity, but how do you think the trademark holders will react to this? Do you think fans will go to the length of fully recreating Halo1 and distributing it as a UT3 mod? If so, what will the repercussions be for the modders, Epic, Sony, etc?

Once the ability is there, its pretty much out of anyone's control what modders do with the tech. Sony can filter out infringing material from their servers, but if the content can be downloaded from a PC and loaded via memory stick, there's no way to suppress this activity.

 

[sprsk]

Will someone please think of the copyrights?

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

Recently, ******* interviewed Mark Rein of Epic about Halo mods in the PS3 version of UT3. As obvious as it is, it blew my mind. I seriously hadn't considered the idea.

In LittleBigPlanet's promotional material, there is an image of possible outfits for dressing up your Sackboy:

So you can see even Media Molecule is already advertising the potential for Trademark infringement.

Obviously appreciation of classic series transcend the business of platform exclusivity, but how do you think the trademark holders will react to this? Do you think fans will go to the length of fully recreating Halo1 and distributing it as a UT3 mod? If so, what will the repercussions be for the modders, Epic, Sony, etc?

Once the ability is there, its pretty much out of anyone's control what modders do with the tech. Sony can filter out infringing material from their servers, but if the content can be downloaded from a PC and loaded via memory stick, there's no way to suppress this activity.

I haven't been busted....yet. But I also haven't achieved the same speeds as a GoTeki 45 class ship. If/when I do, the hammer may indeed come down.

 

[ShinNL]

Didn't someone remake Chrono Trigger as an UT mod, but Square(Enix?) killed the project when it was very far ahead?

 

[Durante]

Didn't someone remake Chrono Trigger as an UT mod, but Square(Enix?) killed the project when it was very far ahead?

That wasn't a mod as far as I know, but rather a standalone game, but the rest is right.

*sniff*

 

[Woo-Fu]

You can bet that none of that will make it into the "full" version of the game, regardless of how popular any content like that is in the beta/demo/seed version that is coming out first.

Long as that is what happens I don't see there being any real issue. If there was, we'd be getting cease and desist notices for most of the photoshops that appear on neogaf.

 

[DuckRacer]

Wait, so Sony/MM actually distributed this image... with a Mario sackboy?

 

[Omar Ismail]

Hopefully companies wizen up and realize that people PROMOTING THEIR BRANDS is a friggin GOOD THING! I think companies ARE waking up to that fact, so you'll see less hammer bringing in the future. User generated content and the benefits and pitfalls it brings are here to stay, and companies just need to accept it and learn to work with it.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Mario's Sackboy was apparently already in the E3 demo.

 

[Yoboman]

It will never be exact though, it will only ever look alike. Is that enough for companies to come after Sony with copyright issues? I don't think it'll be a problem, but they won't put Nintendo or MS inspired levels in the Blu Ray version obviously

 

[BolognaOni]

So you can see even Media Molecule is already advertising the potential for Trademark infringement.

Obviously appreciation of classic series transcend the business of platform exclusivity, but how do you think the trademark holders will react to this? Do you think fans will go to the length of fully recreating Halo1 and distributing it as a UT3 mod? If so, what will the repercussions be for the modders, Epic, Sony, etc?

Awww Christ... the lawyers are going to have a field day with this one. Whoever posted this drawing really needs to think before they do things like this!

I think this might be something more akin to City of Heroes issues... If you make a platformer game, and give people the ability to make it look like Mario, etc, and even encourage it... you're in for a lawsuit.

If you keep the mods policed, don't give people any support for this kind of thing, and actively police and discourage people from, for example, remaking SM3 in LBP, then you are probably OK. If you allow it, and use the feature to promote the game, you're going to get sued and lose.

 

[Campster]

Hopefully companies wizen up and realize that people PROMOTING THEIR BRANDS is a friggin GOOD THING! I think companies ARE waking up to that fact, so you'll see less hammer bringing in the future. User generated content and the benefits and pitfalls it brings are here to stay, and companies just need to accept it and learn to work with it.

I don't disagree, but you have to look at it from the company's perspective: Where do you draw the line between encouraging your fandom to use your IP in creative new ways and protecting your brand from being co-opted or diluted? Is Harry Potter fan fiction okay? If it is, what about erotic Harry Potter fan fiction? What about when it's Harry Potter erotic fiction on a for-pay site?

The lines are very blurry, and IP law is woefully outdated. We're sort of in a brave new world as far as a lot of this stuff goes, and while current laws exist to deal with the concepts of intellectual property none of them were designed with non-profit fandom or the medium of digital distribution in mind.

 

[badcrumble]

I'd love it if there were a full Halo mod for UT3 playable on PS3. I wouldn't play it, but it'd be hilarious.

 

[PjotrStroganov]

If the author (gamer) is not making any money from it: no prob no?

 

[Victrix]

Hopefully companies wizen up and realize that people PROMOTING THEIR BRANDS is a friggin GOOD THING! I think companies ARE waking up to that fact, so you'll see less hammer bringing in the future. User generated content and the benefits and pitfalls it brings are here to stay, and companies just need to accept it and learn to work with it.

If you don't enforce a trademark, you lose it. There's a reason companies frequently go after people infringing on their IP. There's nothing good about losing legal rights to something you've created.

 

[TheRagnCajun]

This could go bad.

I know Marvel and DC constantly ride Cryptic's ass for copyright infringments on user-created heroes in Ciy of Heroes MMO. Cryptic used to delete any hero that too closely resembled anything copyrighted, now they just make you change the name.

And its not just superheroes. Anything Starwars, or videogame personalities like legacy of kain. User-created content has its limits it seems.

 

[OokieSpookie]

Awww Christ... the lawyers are going to have a field day with this one. Whoever posted this drawing really needs to think before they do things like this!

I think this might be something more akin to City of Heroes issues... If you make a platformer game, and give people the ability to make it look like Mario, etc, and even encourage it... you're in for a lawsuit.

If you keep the mods policed, don't give people any support for this kind of thing, and actively police and discourage people from, for example, remaking SM3 in LBP, then you are probably OK. If you allow it, and use the feature to promote the game, you're going to get sued and lose.

Parody laws give quite a bit of freedom, you guys can keep your drama queen acts in the closet.

 

[TheGreatDave]

Don't **** with Nintendo, guys. Lincoln will come back and get that game erased.

 

[NeonZ]

Recently, ******* interviewed Mark Rein of Epic about Halo mods in the PS3 version of UT3. As obvious as it is, it blew my mind. I seriously hadn't considered the idea.

In LittleBigPlanet's promotional material, there is an image of possible outfits for dressing up your Sackboy:

So you can see even Media Molecule is already advertising the potential for Trademark infringement.

Obviously appreciation of classic series transcend the business of platform exclusivity, but how do you think the trademark holders will react to this? Do you think fans will go to the length of fully recreating Halo1 and distributing it as a UT3 mod? If so, what will the repercussions be for the modders, Epic, Sony, etc?

Once the ability is there, its pretty much out of anyone's control what modders do with the tech. Sony can filter out infringing material from their servers, but if the content can be downloaded from a PC and loaded via memory stick, there's no way to suppress this activity.

I don't think there'll be any significant problem, unless we step into the realm of completely remaking other games.

Mortal Kombat Armageddon included character parts clearly taken from Street Fighter characters for its "kreate a fighter" mode, like an hairstyle called "Devil", which is identical to Akuma's. That game was a million seller, but I don't think I've heard anything about some legal problem regarding it.

Of course, presenting a costume "inspired" by a character from another company in art is different from allowing someone to build it by offering a bunch of different parts, and then there's also the matter of downloads which these new games allow...

 

[Yoboman]

I'd love to see them try stop me from using characters I make myself

 

[BolognaOni]

I don't disagree, but you have to look at it from the company's perspective: Where do you draw the line between encouraging your fandom to use your IP in creative new ways and protecting your brand from being co-opted or diluted? Is Harry Potter fan fiction okay? If it is, what about erotic Harry Potter fan fiction? What about when it's Harry Potter erotic fiction on a for-pay site?

The lines are very blurry, and IP law is woefully outdated. We're sort of in a brave new world as far as a lot of this stuff goes, and while current laws exist to deal with the concepts of intellectual property none of them were designed with non-profit fandom or the medium of digital distribution in mind.

There are a few problems, yes, but the law is pretty clear about using copyrighted material to promote a competitive product, ala Halo UT mods or Mario levels in LBP. If you enable it, and don't do anything to discourage it, you're liable.

I don't care what anyone at Epic says, you're never going to see a Halo mod on PSN. It's long been mentioned that there is going to have to be some filter for all of this user generated content. Halo mods in UT or giant penis levels in LBP might exists somewhere, but Sony and Epic are never going to be able to sanction them officially.

That said, these things will be fine if they police them a bit. Putting out promotional materials that encourage this type of thing is not a good idea though... They can be used to establish intent if it ever does go to court.

 

[radioheadrule83]

Haven't Nintendo expressed regret that they didn't snap up MM / Little Big Planet first?
I'm sure they've seen this image. Perhaps it was a sort of compliment to them that a Mario-esque sack dude was featured in it.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

another fine reason to abolish (or at least update) copyright law but alas, our legislature is busy doing other important things like....uhhh...ummm...

 

[BolognaOni]

If the author (gamer) is not making any money from it: no prob no?

They're not going to go after the user, they'll go after then enabler (the developer).

I'd love to see them try stop me from using characters I make myself

They can't ban your box from XBL/PSN?

 

[TheGreatDave]

Haven't Nintendo expressed regret that they didn't snap up MM / Little Big Planet first?
I'm sure they've seen this image. Perhaps it was a sort of compliment to them that a Mario-esque sack dude was featured in it.

Yeah, Nintendo's probably fine with their IP being used because it's such a good concept!

Ninjas, they will be coming.

 

[JzeroT1437]

That wasn't a mod as far as I know, but rather a standalone game, but the rest is right.

*sniff*

:*(

 

[PjotrStroganov]

They're not going to go after the user, they'll go after then enabler (the developer).

I doubt it.

 

[theBishop]

I don't disagree, but you have to look at it from the company's perspective: Where do you draw the line between encouraging your fandom to use your IP in creative new ways and protecting your brand from being co-opted or diluted? Is Harry Potter fan fiction okay? If it is, what about erotic Harry Potter fan fiction? What about when it's Harry Potter erotic fiction on a for-pay site?

The lines are very blurry, and IP law is woefully outdated. We're sort of in a brave new world as far as a lot of this stuff goes, and while current laws exist to deal with the concepts of intellectual property none of them were designed with non-profit fandom or the medium of digital distribution in mind.

Before we go any further, I should say that NO LAWS exist to deal with "Intellectual Property".

Intellectual Property is a term used by holders of Copyrights, Trademarks, and Patents to confuse people into thinking they own 100% All rights to anything resembling their work.

These are separate laws that protect different things, and it hurts consumers treat them as one blanket concept.

Read More:
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/not-ipr.xhtml

 

[Campster]

There are a few problems, yes, but the law is pretty clear about using copyrighted material to promote a competitive product, ala Halo UT mods or Mario levels in LBP. If you enable it, and don't do anything to discourage it, you're liable.

I don't care what anyone at Epic says, you're never going to see a Halo mod on PSN. It's long been mentioned that there is going to have to be some filter for all of this user generated content. Halo mods in UT or giant penis levels in LBP might exists somewhere, but Sony and Epic are never going to be able to sanction them officially.

That said, these things will be fine if they police them a bit. Putting out promotional materials that encourage this type of thing is not a good idea though... They can be used to establish intent if it ever does go to court.

But it *does* get tricky. Okay, so I'm cool making my own Halo mod for UT3. But the second I'm upload it to my website that has Google AdSense ads I'm making a profit off of it. It's not clear at what point I'm breaking the law and at what point I"m just being a fan, and right now it's largely up to the publisher of the content - no one wants to have the reputation Fox did in the late 90's with their fan sites, and everyone wants the benefits of fan communities, but no one wants to lose control of their IP. Fair use isn't a right, it's a defense against IP infringement allegations, and I see that being a major problem as media companies have the money to push cease and desists and very few people are going to fight back for a piece of Harry Potter fan fiction or a Halo mod.

Before we go any further, I should say that NO LAWS exist to deal with "Intellectual Property".

Intellectual Property is a term used by holders of Copyrights, Trademarks, and Patents to confuse people into thinking they own 100% All rights to anything resembling their work.

These are separate laws that protect different things, and it hurts consumers treat them as one blanket concept.

Read More:
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/not-ipr.xhtml

Yeah, I know, patents and trademarks and copyrights are different things, but by and large we're discussing both copyright and trademark infringement and it's easier to say "IP law" than "copyright and trademark laws."

 

[Omar Ismail]

I don't disagree, but you have to look at it from the company's perspective: Where do you draw the line between encouraging your fandom to use your IP in creative new ways and protecting your brand from being co-opted or diluted? Is Harry Potter fan fiction okay? If it is, what about erotic Harry Potter fan fiction? What about when it's Harry Potter erotic fiction on a for-pay site?

It's obvious that it's not so black and white, however in this particular instance I think it's pretty clear. There's a huge difference from a fan making a Mario avatar and a big business using Mario to endorce their products (unofficially). I understand the whole enforcing the trademark thing, but again, let's be realistic here. I mean, people DID make Halo mods on UT, and I didn't hear any lawsuits being filed.

We've already seen the ultimate copyright infringement game in the form of City of Heroes. And as far as I can recall nothing bad ever happened there, though it WAS discussed.

As Bologna already mentioned having MM officially sanction IP infringement through promotional materials is pretty stupid on their part though, even if they're not "exact".

 

[ParticleReality]

Wait, so Sony/MM actually distributed this image... with a Mario sackboy?

Yeah. It's just the guys at MM screwing around with what you could make, and they decided to share it with everyone. I'm sure that if they go ahead and put in costumes that look like a Ryu from SF or the Crysis dude from Crysis they'll do the necessary things to get the go ahead from Capcom and EA(Just Examples).



Will Sony ever goto Nintendo/Microsoft to get the Okay for a Mario/Master Chief sackboy....no chance in hell.



Speaking of sackboys...where the hell is James Bond, Clank and, Daxter?

 

[soco]

yeah i thought about this too when i read it and thought to the troubles with youtube and such. i suspect Microsoft, should they ever implement it, will have more problems than Sony, as XBL isn't as open, and thus people will think it's up to Microsoft to police the content. i suspect Sony will still have problems, but can just toss the issue off to individual game companies more easily since the developers can more easily handle this themselves without PSN, but i still expect some lawsuits anyway, as that's how people are

 

[Yoboman]

They can't ban your box from XBL/PSN?

Uh, hell no?

In the first place, there is no reason they would ever take such a drastic measure to ban somebody for creating something in a game like LBP. Getting your PSN or XBL account banned in the first place is next to impossible, and only happens over stuff like cheating or stalking. That would that stop me from being able to play the game anyway, and furthermore they wouldn't even know what I'm playing with in the first place

What a genuinely dumb thing to say

 

[TheRagnCajun]

We've already seen the ultimate copyright infringement game in the form of City of Heroes. And as far as I can recall nothing bad ever happened there, though it WAS discussed.

uh, yes. They used to delete your character. You could have a lvl 50 hero and cryptic would delete it just like that if it resembled anything too closely.

 

[theBishop]

Yeah, I know, patents and trademarks and copyrights are different things, but by and large we're discussing both copyright and trademark infringement and it's easier to say "IP law" than "copyright and trademark laws."

But that's exactly the problem:

If you put [copyright, trademark, patent] laws in the general “intellectual property” pot, you will find that obstructs your ability to think clearly about each one.

 

[TheRagnCajun]

From City of Heroes ToS:

4. ACCOUNT
e) Character Name. In order to use the Service, you must create a character and choose a name for your character to identify your character to other Members (your "Character Name"). You may not select as your Character Name the name of another person, or a name which violates any third party's trademark right, copyright, or other proprietary right, or which may mislead other players to believe you to be an employee of NC Interactive, or which NC Interactive deems at its sole discretion to be vulgar or otherwise offensive. NC Interactive reserves the right, in its sole discretion, to (1) delete or alter any Character Name or (2) terminate any license granted herein, for any reason whatsoever, including, without limitation, any suspected or actual infringement of any trademark or trade name right, copyright, or other proprietary right.




14. TERMINATION
(a) NC Interactive reserves the right to suspend or terminate this Agreement (including your Software license and your Account) immediately and without notice if you breach this Agreement or willfully infringe any third party intellectual property rights, or if we are unable to verify or authenticate any information you provide to us, or upon game play, chat or any player activity whatsoever which is, in our sole discretion, inappropriate and/or in violation of the spirit of the Game(s) as described in the Rules of Conduct

 

[Omar Ismail]

uh, yes. They used to delete your character. You could have a lvl 50 hero and cryptic would delete it just like that if it resembled anything too closely.

REALLY? I didn't hear about that. Well... that sucks.

 

[BolognaOni]

I doubt it.

Not exactly the same scenario. Yoda playing tennis is not really competing and/or having any sort of negative impact on Lucas, making it pretty tough for them to prove damages. Nor does making a cartoon look alike of Yoda specifically really help Nintendo sell a product.

Mario playing LBP, or a Halo UT mode on the other hand...

Uh, hell no?

In the first place, there is no reason they would ever take such a drastic measure to ban somebody for creating something in a game like LBP. Getting your PSN or XBL account banned in the first place is next to impossible, and only happens over stuff like cheating or stalking. That would that stop me from being able to play the game anyway, and furthermore they wouldn't even know what I'm playing with in the first place

What a genuinely dumb thing to say

I agree, it's a pretty drastic step, and if you're just using it on your own, they probably won't do anything about it. But if you're going to create potentially infringing and/or obscene content and SHARE it, it's fine.

None of this is a problem at all until the company becomes a participant in it.

Really it just means that networks are going to have to be policed somehow, which has always been the big issue with user generated content (see Nazi cars in Forza for a recent example).

City of Heroes is a perfect example. You could create Wolverine. NC Soft got sued, and lost. Now, if you create Wolverine, that character and/or your account goes bye-bye.

LBP, and UT mods are going to have to have similar policies.

 

[theBishop]

Really it just means that networks are going to have to be policed somehow, which has always been the big issue with user generated content (see Nazi cars in Forza for a recent example).

The difference, at least with UT3 (i don't know if LBP has been confirmed) is that you don't have to go through Sony/Epic to run the mods. You could re-create Auschwitz in UT3, and they couldn't prevent you from playing (or sharing) it. They can only delete it from the public servers.

 

[Cdammen]

Did the developers Etranges Libellules and Atari get sued over Asterix & Obelix XXL 2: Mission Las Vegum?

 

[DopeyFish]

Did the developers Etranges Libellules and Atari get sued over Asterix & Obelix XXL 2: Mission Las Vegum?

http://static.pici.se/pictures/gDNOgNIOR.jpg

falls under the class of parody in fair use copyright law

 

[gofreak]

Well there is an issue of fair use/parody, now that it's been raised. If someone makes a parody or homage to Mario via a UGC game, for example, what's the story there? It might be quite easy to argue that a sackboy mario is parody..


Also, re. Halo mods in UT on PSN, I don't think it's so much an issue of them being on PSN, as them being on the open internet, if mods will be useable as suggested (i.e. download off a regular site using the browser etc., just as done on the PC). Epic/Sony possibly absolve themselves of responsibility for content if it's not distributed via them (as it won't be, I don't think). Nothing has changed re. the legalities of all that just because it's on PS3, and nothing was done about those Halo mods before AFAIK.

 

[Cheeto]

I personally, am looking forward to giving some PS3 users some Master Chief and other various Halo models to them.

 

[StrikerObi]

They will probably hide behind the DMCA or something. They won't police stuff like this, but if asked to remove somebody's Mario Sackboy, they will. That's my guess anyway.

 

[RobertM]

Did the developers Etranges Libellules and Atari get sued over Asterix & Obelix XXL 2: Mission Las Vegum?

Damn, never heard of this game, looks pretty nice.

3 years in the making just to get squashed by the greed that spouts out of the two famous letters, M and S.

 

[theBishop]

I personally, am looking forward to giving some PS3 users some Master Chief and other various Halo models to them.

it would be pretty badass to see the Chief in the gritty UT3/Gears art style.

 

[Cheeto]

it would be pretty badass to see the Chief in the gritty UT3/Gears art style.

I'd think it'd be bad-ass to see him move like a dude in some kinda cybernetic suit with outrageous strength should.

 

[theBishop]

I'd think it'd be bad-ass to see him move like a dude in some kinda cybernetic suit with outrageous strength should.

Until he dies that is... if Gears is any indication. Then his corpse turns into a blow-up doll!

 

[mrpeabody]

This issue has been around for as long as people have been able to add content to games. DOOM (1993) had a mod to add Barney the purple dinosaur. Before that, there were text adventures and MUDs that ripped off Star Wars/Star Trek/LOTR with varying levels of accuracy.

Companies take different attitudes. Some send C&D letters immediately, while others let it ride. As long as you're not making money off it, often they will let it go. There's an upcoming Battlestar Galactica mod for Freespace 2 that, from the trailers, looks exactly like the space combat in the show. Not a peep out of Sci-Fi.

 

[Warm Machine]

Damn, never heard of this game, looks pretty nice.

3 years in the making just to get squashed by the greed that spouts out of the two famous letters, M and S.

MS has all the right in the world to kill that as does any other copyright holder when someone uses their intellectual property to further their own ends. It is pretty much identity theft.

What strikes me is why even spend 3 years of your own time to extend MS's property when you could be working on your own and reap the value out of that?