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Using unsanctioned prounouns for FL4K on the Borderland 3 forums will get you banned.

Thabass

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Jun 9, 2008
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Everyone, please do not use gendered pronouns when addressing the crowd.

These people need some serious, serious help. And, unfortunately, I believe that intense psychotheraphy maybe adding more damage to this than we realize.

I'm current in a therapy group for people with eating disorders. It's something I have to do to be considered viable for weightloss surgery I'm having in October. The first day there, I had to announce myself as my name and pronouns. Not only there, things we talk about are things that may "trigger" us.

I'm not sure if it has any thing to do with this type of culture shift, but I think psychotherapy is a leading cause of what's happening, socially in our world.
 
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Paracelsus

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Jun 24, 2007
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So uh, what's the story?
How does a robot, a computer, a perfect machine, suffer from dysphoria? That makes no sense at all.
That's like claiming a computer can suffer from autism. Even if it's a learning machine with full blown A.I., the mere concept of dysphoria would be the equivalent of a bug, unless someone actually went out their way to program that robot with dysphoria.
And you can make the argument "it's a machine, gender and sex mean nothing to them" which makes the whole thing even more pointless.
 
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Ar¢tos

Formerly 'ColdToffee'
Oct 24, 2017
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well funnily enough the vast majority of people in Germany used male pronouns when referring to the Amiga
even official ads referred to the Amiga with male pronouns

it usually is "Der Amiga" (der = male form of "the")

here an official ad of the amiga



yes, germans usually misgender the Amiga....

REEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!
Amiga was masculine in Portuguese too, because it was referring to a computer ("computador" in pt, male noun). All consoles are feminine in Portuguese because console is a feminine word (even if we just use the console name, and not the word console).
German probably does the same.
 

laynelane

Neo Member
Aug 21, 2019
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What a strange way to treat potential customers. I stay away from all that political/woke bs, but situations like this are a reminder that it's still going strong.
 
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petran79

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Amiga was masculine in Portuguese too, because it was referring to a computer ("computador" in pt, male noun). All consoles are feminine in Portuguese because console is a feminine word (even if we just use the console name, and not the word console).
German probably does the same.
In Greece it is a little messed up.

Company names are female. Console too but when referring by name Eg Atari, NES, Mega Drive, Playstation it becomes neutral.

On computer brands like Atari st, spectrum, amstrad etc it can be used both as male (word computer is male) or neutral.

Amiga was referred mostly as female and to a less extent neutral and male. Probably the -a in the end mattered. Only computer to be the exception,using all three nouns
 
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So uh, what's the story?
How does a robot, a computer, a perfect machine, suffer from dysphoria? That makes no sense at all.
That's like claiming a computer can suffer from autism. Even if it's a learning machine with full blown A.I., the mere concept of dysphoria would be the equivalent of a bug, unless someone actually went out their way to program that robot with dysphoria.
And you can make the argument "it's a machine, gender and sex mean nothing to them" which makes the whole thing even more pointless.
DunDunDunpachi DunDunDunpachi nailed it. It’s a criticism shield for the enevitibly mediocre character and plot points.
 

LegendOfKage

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Mar 6, 2018
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David Jaffe (who is very supportive of actual trans people, btw) insists that he'll call FL4K whatever he wants to.

"And you know what you can do, if you don't like it? You can take my 60 dollar, one dollar bills I'm going to use to pay for your fucking game, and you can wipe your fucking tears with it, because I'm still buying your fucking game. But, it's jus- ugh. Fuck you Borderlands 3, Gearbox, motherfuckers."





And journalists / media personalities continue to naturally mis-gender a robot that has a male voice and no non-male characteristics to speak of, to the surprise of not me.



I also have to wonder, based on the interviews I've seen, if someone at Gearbox PR decided to ask the Staff not to correct interviewers who are using male pronouns when talking about FL4K. Constantly turning every you tube video mentioning the character into "actually, FL4K is a not a 'him,' they're gender non-binary, and they should be addressed as such" might not be the best PR move when people just want to hear about how cool your new game is. Although it would have made for a fun supercut.
 
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The_Mike

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Any game to be terminated by sjw shit. Also add the EGS exclusivity. Oh well. The first were great, the second were mediocre
 

01011001

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Dec 4, 2018
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Amiga was masculine in Portuguese too, because it was referring to a computer ("computador" in pt, male noun). All consoles are feminine in Portuguese because console is a feminine word (even if we just use the console name, and not the word console).
German probably does the same.
to an extent yes, PlayStation is female, Xbox is female, BUT the N64 is an it, the DS and 3DS are male, for the NES people use all of the 3 pronouns depending on region and the GameCube is male

so it's not as cut and dry here. often people use the gender the console would have if you'd translate the name to German, but not always... it's weird.
 
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CrisPy2019

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to an extent yes, PlayStation is female, Xbox is female, BUT the N64 is an it, the DS and 3DS are male, for the NES people use all of the 3 pronouns depending on region and the GameCube is male

so it's not as cut and dry here. often people use the gender the console would have if you'd translate the name to German, but not always... it's weird.
Not really tho. Starting with the Wii and even tho Nintendo never addressed it with a pronoun in its first few years (and just years later their web designers who are just contractors copied that nonsense) but not so smart people used "Die Wii" and still use it to this day. (Check Wikipedia) Wii comes from "We" which is "Wir" in German and therefore should be called "Das Wii" WiiU is also not female yet people make it female and it even resulted in Bullshit like people in public saying "die GameCube" and even worse "die Gameboy"......

I wonder why no feminist fighting for equality complained about everything Plural being "die" let's start a petition to make plural "der" and see the world burn lol.
 

GnomeChimpsky

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Oct 26, 2017
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So uh, what's the story?
How does a robot, a computer, a perfect machine, suffer from dysphoria? That makes no sense at all.
That's like claiming a computer can suffer from autism. Even if it's a learning machine with full blown A.I., the mere concept of dysphoria would be the equivalent of a bug, unless someone actually went out their way to program that robot with dysphoria.
And you can make the argument "it's a machine, gender and sex mean nothing to them" which makes the whole thing even more pointless.
When creating AI I'd imagine you'd end up with tons of weird traits that could be interpreted as this or that mental illness.

Although in this game I'm sure it's virtue signaling horse shit that won't explore anything interesting whatsoever.
 

Guynamedbilly

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Feb 28, 2018
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Anyone think this could be a joke? Like reverse transphobia? Maybe they could be trolling activists by making them jump through socially conscious hoops. Randy Pitchford doesn't strike me as a pro SJW dude, but also he's so clueless sometimes, that I could see this going either way.
 

DrAspirino

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It might be wrong but when i learned english they told me the pronoun "they" was also used as a gender neutral term. This was like 15 years ago, so no SJW nonsense involved.
Maybe... I don't know. My sister is an ESL teacher and I asked her about this and she said that "they" is used as a third person plural in every situation, whether explicit or implicit.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong (since english is not my mother tongue), but wouldn't a robot be an "it", since it's an object?
 
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desertdroog

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Maybe... I don't know. My sister is an ESL teacher and I asked her about this and she said that "they" is used as a third person plural in every situation, whether explicit or implicit.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong (since english is not my mother tongue), but wouldn't a robot be an "it", since it's an object?
Yes.
 

DiscoJer

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Maybe... I don't know. My sister is an ESL teacher and I asked her about this and she said that "they" is used as a third person plural in every situation, whether explicit or implicit.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong (since english is not my mother tongue), but wouldn't a robot be an "it", since it's an object?
I took a philosophy course in college and there was an appendix in our textbook on "do robots have souls"? And the teacher said "No, how stupid can you get?". He was a strange guy for a philosophy teacher, he was incredibly anti-Marx and really hated analytic philosophy. Which I guess is why he taught at a tech school and not a liberal arts one.
 
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Rhysser

Banned
Jun 22, 2013
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Lots of "Get off my lawn" cringe going on in here. The world will keep changing. People used to the old ways will keep complaining about how the changes will ruin all of the things. Despite this, all of the things will keep chugging along.

Gender (as opposed to biological sex) is an identity, not a biological thing. Hard idea for some to swallow, but so was the fact that the earth is not flat, or that it's not the center of the universe. All of this would upend society and destroy the world. Except it didn't. And neither will this. Progress keeps marching on. Adjust, or yell at people to get off your lawn. The future doesn't particularly care about how much you like it :)
 

matt404au

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Lots of "Get off my lawn" cringe going on in here. The world will keep changing. People used to the old ways will keep complaining about how the changes will ruin all of the things. Despite this, all of the things will keep chugging along.

Gender (as opposed to biological sex) is an identity, not a biological thing. Hard idea for some to swallow, but so was the fact that the earth is not flat, or that it's not the center of the universe. All of this would upend society and destroy the world. Except it didn't. And neither will this. Progress keeps marching on. Adjust, or yell at people to get off your lawn. The future doesn't particularly care about how much you like it :)
 

Rhysser

Banned
Jun 22, 2013
459
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Don't reply to the oh so obvious troll.
People who disagree with you aren't trolling, and echo chambers aren't fun.

Every month there is another thread about some gaming company deciding to include more people either in their games or in their work environment. Recently there was that Riot thread, now there's this. No one really cares if a dev wants to make a robot that prefers "they" pronouns. It's such a trivial thing (though , their decisions to ban people over it is pretty bad)

About a year ago, I had a DM for a D&D group I was playing with tell the group that he couldn't allow a gay character in their game because he didn't know how to relate to gay people's relationships. Like, he knew how Dragons behave, and how elves and wizards behave, but gay people? Naww, so strange. 10 years ago the gay player might not have been allowed to play or have a gay character. This time the DM was promptly booted from the group, and none of the other people even questioned who was in the wrong.

The times, they are a-changing.
 
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People who disagree with you aren't trolling, and echo chambers aren't fun.

Every month there is another thread about some gaming company deciding to include more people either in their games or in their work environment. Recently there was that Riot thread, now there's this. No one really cares if a dev wants to make a robot that prefers "they" pronouns. It's such a trivial thing (though , their decisions to ban people over it is pretty bad)

About a year ago, I had a DM for a D&D group I was playing with tell the group that he couldn't allow a gay character in their game because he didn't know how to relate to gay people's relationships. Like, he knew how Dragons behave, and how elves and wizards behave, but gay people? Naww, so strange. 10 years ago the gay player might not have been allowed to play or have a gay character. This time the DM was promptly booted from the group, and none of the other people even questioned who was in the wrong.

The times, they are a-changing.
Covering up Gearbox for their ''proxy shit talking'' counts as trolling.
If you think ''misgendering'' a robot is problematic then you need to see a therapist.
 

Rhysser

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Jun 22, 2013
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Covering up Gearbox for their ''proxy shit talking'' counts as trolling.
If you think ''misgendering'' a robot is problematic then you need to see a therapist.
I think what is problematic is that so many people are against non-binary people being called by their preferred pronouns. I don't particularly care about the robot, nor do I agree with Gearbox's decision to ban people for misgendering it. But the fact that so many people are insisting "OH I will call it a HE it is certainly a male sex which is obvs teh same as gender!" is what I find very telling, since as a robot it cannot have a biological sex.

Though, I do think if people are purposely using the wrong pronouns toward actual people to make some sort of misguided statement - something that has definitely been mentioned in this discussion - they should be banned / fired. Showing courtesy about these things is simple, and it's time to grow up.

I'm also sure people's great granddads told their grandkids to see therapists for respecting people of color by not using the N* word to describe them, but again, it's hard to see when you yourself have become the out-of-touch granddad and have been left behind. This is just the next iteration of the cycle, and you have now shifted from the grandkid to become the granddad. Thus history repeats :D
 
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I think what is problematic is that so many people are against non-binary people being called by their preferred pronouns. I don't particularly care about the robot, nor do I agree with Gearbox's decision to ban people for misgendering it. But the fact that so many people are insisting "OH I will call it a HE it is certainly a male sex which is obvs teh same as gender!" is what I find very telling, since as a robot it cannot have a biological sex.

Though, I do think if people are purposely using the wrong pronouns toward actual people to make some sort of misguided statement - something that has definitely been mentioned in this discussion - they should be banned / fired. Showing courtesy about these things is simple, and it's time to grow up.

I'm also sure people's great granddads told their grandkids to see therapists for respecting people of color by not using the N* word to describe them, but again, it's hard to see when you yourself have become the out-of-touch granddad and have been left behind. This is just the next iteration of the cycle, and you have now shifted from the grandkid to become the granddad. Thus history repeats :D
See, you are trolling.
If you actually think that using wrong pronouns and ''misgendering'' people are vehement acts just like using racial slurs then you're just plain trolling.

Or maybe you're the same who's out of touch, with reality that is.
 

cormack12

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.....though , their decisions to ban people over it is pretty bad.
Yes, that's what people are discussing. You agree with the premise of the OP. You're just trying to throw driveby comments in to fuel a fire of your own making.
 
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KungFucius

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It’s the progressive end-run around gendered pronouns. It’s terrible grammar, yes; and I’ll resist it as long as I can.

If we can’t accept “he” as the general-use placeholder, it’s easy to alternate between “he” and “she” when a pronoun is indefinite.
So you will fight against a person who chooses what they want to be called because you think it is part of some stupid conspiracy? Classy.

Do you even know a single trans person? Do you have a clue what many have been through in their lives? Let them choose their own pronouns because it is about them, not you. Seriously why do you care so much that you'd choose to do something that disrespects someone's wishes?
 
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recursive

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The hosts on outside Xbox also called FL4K a he. Putting aside the "outrage to the outrage" of misgendering FL4K, if you really want to make a non-binary trans character, you probably shouldn't use a robot who has by far the largest build of any character in the game, has a distinctly male voice, and is played by a male voice actor. Someone who looked closer to David Bowie when he was flirting with androgyny would be a good design for such a character. Not a robot with only male features.

As I said in another thread, It'll be interesting to see and hear how FL4K's gender is represented in the actual game. So often, it seems people (both developers and consumers) make a big deal out of "did you know" type details that aren't even found in the game itself.

Did you know Solider 76 is gay? Did you know Bloodhound is non-binary? Did you know Profit from Black Ops 3 is a homosexual? No. I didn't know, and I didn't care, and none of this is even found in these games. And if Borderlands 3 handles player characters like Borderlands 1 and 2, FL4K's pro-noun might as well be "vault hunter" anyway.
All that stuff is just virtue signaling that came after release of the game to pander to the mentally ill.
 

Nickolaidas

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Jan 18, 2019
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People up in here need some remedial English lessons. They is often used when talking about a single person, usually when you don't know the person

Somebody ran into my car in the parking lot. They totalled it.

I was walking down the street and some guy hit me from behind.
Did you get a good look at them?
No, they were wearing a mask.
Forgive me if I'm wrong (not a native English speaker), but isn't 'guy' male? And the female being 'gal'?
 

Nickolaidas

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Because SJW consider "gaming" has ben a "white male" territory and the gaming industry is one of the most actiove on social networks like twitter and instagram. Also they learned that they have somehow some kind of power to damage public images of companies by calling them sexists or transphobes.

Look how the same doesn't happen with books. Nobody cares there's no trans people on Lord of the Rings or Game of Thrones.
They had them in Vikings, though.
 

CrisPy2019

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Lots of "Get off my lawn" cringe going on in here. The world will keep changing. People used to the old ways will keep complaining about how the changes will ruin all of the things. Despite this, all of the things will keep chugging along.

Gender (as opposed to biological sex) is an identity, not a biological thing. Hard idea for some to swallow, but so was the fact that the earth is not flat, or that it's not the center of the universe. All of this would upend society and destroy the world. Except it didn't. And neither will this. Progress keeps marching on. Adjust, or yell at people to get off your lawn. The future doesn't particularly care about how much you like it :)
And there my friend you are wrong.

Gender is not something to be separated from biological sex. (If that would be the case that would work in every language. Some backwards people think it's 2 different things because why else would there be two words for it. yeah but it's no news that English has several words from Germanic, Latin, Viking, french, and whatnot roots that mean the same thing yet are different words.

What you and all the other people mean yet can't be bothered to actually say is Gender-role. You can play whatever role you want. Most people probably wouldn't care.

If you disagree that the archaic Gender-role of a female is to be inside a kitchen (which I do) and that they are supposed to wear skirts(they can wear whatever they want imho)or that pink is a feminine color and wearing that as a man is "gay" (tbh manlyness or having balls in my opinion is to not care about others and whether they see you as a man or not)
It's all up to you. Nobody forces you to be in that old gender role but no matter what it does not change your gender.

Gender =/= Gender-Role. We have more than the traditional two gender roles but not more than two genders.
 
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Kenpachii

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Imagine your language not being native english easy ban.

These clowns.
 
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CrisPy2019

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Imagine your language not being native english easy ban.tbh

These clowns.
Tbh I am interested in how they tackle this mess with the international subtitles.

Most of the non-english speaking world didn't get the Gender-role memo. So what is the french, German, Spanish, Russian, polish, Italian etc. Equivalent of singular they?

German for example has plural they which is "Sie" which already is the same as female which is of course "Sie". Then if you do not know someone and are addressing the person no matter the gender you say "Sie" again (old english Thou vs You) but then having another they for singular would that also be "Sie"? how many "Sie" can you have lol?!?
 

Ar¢tos

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Tbh I am interested in how they tackle this mess with the international subtitles.

Most of the non-english speaking world didn't get the Gender-role memo. So what is the french, German, Spanish, Russian, polish, Italian etc. Equivalent of singular they?

German for example has plural they which is "Sie" which already is the same as female which is of course "Sie". Then if you do not know someone and are addressing the person no matter the gender you say "Sie" again (old english Thou vs You) but then having another they for singular would that also be "Sie"? how many "Sie" can you have lol?!?
If they really "care" and want to stick to their silly SJW approach then they will refuse to localize the game to other languages, since very few other languages are made almost entirely of genderless nouns, and proudly "eat up" the sales losses.
You'll have English with English subtitles and nothing else.
 
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Guynamedbilly

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Forgive me if I'm wrong (not a native English speaker), but isn't 'guy' male? And the female being 'gal'?
Yes, but people rarely use gal unless they are acting like someone from the 1950s, and guy is used all the time. Even weirder, nowadays, guys is often used to mean a group of people of all sexes. You could say, "hey you guys, come with me," meaning everyone follow you, male and female.
 

Rhysser

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Yes, that's what people are discussing. You agree with the premise of the OP. You're just trying to throw driveby comments in to fuel a fire of your own making.
Despite the fact that the OP is about the banning, and the fact that I disagree with the banning facet, it is patently not the case that this is ALL people are discussing.

See, you are trolling.
If you actually think that using wrong pronouns and ''misgendering'' people are vehement acts just like using racial slurs then you're just plain trolling.

Or maybe you're the same who's out of touch, with reality that is.
Nice strawman, but it's uninteresting as all strawmen are. They are only similar in that the old guard is totally fine with doing it while the new guard sees it as stupid to intentionally do it.

As far as reality, there is now a thread about a non-binary character in a video game, whereas 5 years ago that thought would seem crazy. So here we are. I'll let you figure out what is and isn't real given this.

Gender is not something to be separated from biological sex. [Snip]
I understand that you have this opinion, but it's just not true. In many cultures objects are gendered and yet they do not have biological sexes. Scientists also agree.


Some excerpts:

About gender identity vs gender role:

Gender identity refers to a person’s identification of self as a girl (or woman), a boy (or man) or a mixture of both. Gender role refers to behaviours that differ in frequency or level between male individuals and female individuals in culture and time (such as toy play or maternal interest).

About gender identity vs biological sex:

The terms sex and gender are often used interchangeably in studies with human patients; however, there are important distinctions between them. According to recommendations of an Institute of Medicine report, the term sex should be used to refer to classifications of male or female individuals according to physical attributes that are determined by an individual’s karyotype, specifically the reproductive organs and their functions. By contrast, the term gender is defined by the individual’s self-representation and identity as either a male or a female person, as well as by society-specific expectations regarding the appropriateness of attributes, activities, or behaviours for boys and men or girls and women.

...

In contrast to the broadly accepted notions that gender is determined by both biological and social environmental factors,146 associations between DSDs and gender-atypical behavioural development have often been interpreted as directly resulting from prenatal androgen exposure.

This is from Nature, a top-tier scientific publication. I highly recommend reading it as it discusses some of the very physical reasons why gender might not align with biological sex, including various chemical-based reasons, or reasons when biological sex itself is mixed. E.g.:

Gender identity has been suggested to generally follow gender of rearing, with the exception of syndromes that result from errors in biosynthesis of androgens, such as deficiencies of 5-α-reductase-2 and 17β-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase-3. In these conditions, the masculinizing puberty that results from endogenous testosterone production is frequently associated with a shift in gender identity among individuals reared as girls.
In those cases, it's just assholeish when people on this forum or elsewhere insist on calling the person by the wrong pronoun on purpose, because THEY don't believe this and that. These people often have biological differences that are causing them problems, and all people have to do is say "they" instead of she or he or whatever to make their day just a bit better, but no. Somehow this is crazy because the forumites *know better* (read: are just personally uncomfortable with the idea of non-binary) about what these people are going through and the science behind why than, you know, the actual endocrinologists who are studying these things.
 
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joe_zazen

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Lots of "Get off my lawn" cringe going on in here. The world will keep changing. People used to the old ways will keep complaining about how the changes will ruin all of the things. Despite this, all of the things will keep chugging along.

Gender (as opposed to biological sex) is an identity, not a biological thing. Hard idea for some to swallow, but so was the fact that the earth is not flat, or that it's not the center of the universe. All of this would upend society and destroy the world. Except it didn't. And neither will this. Progress keeps marching on. Adjust, or yell at people to get off your lawn. The future doesn't particularly care about how much you like it :)
getting old and cranky happens or will happen to everyone, even millennials. They’ll have their own “get off my lawn and take a bath ya hippie!” issues. :messenger_winking_tongue:

But i’d caution against casting ‘old’ people as the enemy. It was the old people that killed Hitler, brought in Americans with Disabilities Act, civil rights legislation and so many other things that social media warriors like to forget when pumping up their view of how amazing their gen is compared to previous ones because they buy tickets to progressive marvel movies and want people fired and jailed (or banned) for not using approved pronouns.

* * *

One unfortunate thing about millennials and younger is their sky high rates of mental illness (66%+ vs 20-ish for boomers genXers) and they have been educated to be ok with totalitarian solutions and corporate domination which makes them .....idk, a highly reactive bunch to deal with i guess. Of course, their mentality is a result of their parents and our corporate dominated culture, so it isn’t directly their fault.

There is research going on trying to understand how the boomers/genxers fucked over this gen, so there is hope that post igen kids will have less mental illness. Lets hope millennials/igenners don't fuck up their kids like boomers and genxers did to them.
 
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Lots of "Get off my lawn" cringe going on in here. The world will keep changing. People used to the old ways will keep complaining about how the changes will ruin all of the things. Despite this, all of the things will keep chugging along.

Gender (as opposed to biological sex) is an identity, not a biological thing. Hard idea for some to swallow, but so was the fact that the earth is not flat, or that it's not the center of the universe. All of this would upend society and destroy the world. Except it didn't. And neither will this. Progress keeps marching on. Adjust, or yell at people to get off your lawn. The future doesn't particularly care about how much you like it :)
Here's the difference, no one is being attacked because they think the world is flat. If you refuse to live in someone else's fairyland you get attacked by a hate mob online that try to ruin every aspect of your life. They are so insecure about their views because they know they are lubricious they need to FORCE people to follow them.

If you want to be a girl I don't care, if you try to force everyone else to call you she/her and attack them and play the victim when they don't then that's when the problem starts.
 

Rhysser

Banned
Jun 22, 2013
459
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getting old and cranky happens or will happen to everyone, even millennials. They’ll have their own “get off my lawn and take a bath ya hippie!” issues. :messenger_winking_tongue:

But i’d caution against casting ‘old’ people as the enemy.
I'm actually old, so I don't think it's necessarily an age thing. I was more referring to fossilized world-view, not fossilized people ;)
 

Rhysser

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Jun 22, 2013
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Here's the difference, no one is being attacked because they think the world is flat. If you refuse to live in someone else's fairyland you get attacked by a hate mob online that try to ruin every aspect of your life. They are so insecure about their views because they know they are lubricious they need to FORCE people to follow them.

If you want to be a girl I don't care, if you try to force everyone else to call you she/her and attack them and play the victim when they don't then that's when the problem starts.
The issue is that you see it as 'fairyland' rather than "errors in biosynthesis of androgens, such as deficiencies of 5-α-reductase-2 and 17β-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase-3" or whatever the ACTUAL cause of the very real, non fantasy thing that it is. And then you proceed to disrespect people. Disrespecting people over their medical condition will always get you fired or otherwise attacked. The reason you don't understand why you are being 'attacked' is because you don't understand that these are medical conditions that you yourself are purposely ignoring.
 

joe_zazen

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May 2, 2017
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Despite the fact that the OP is about the banning, and the fact that I disagree with the banning facet, it is patently not the case that this is ALL people are discussing.



Nice strawman, but it's uninteresting as all strawmen are. They are only similar in that the old guard is totally fine with doing it while the new guard sees it as stupid to intentionally do it.

As far as reality, there is now a thread about a non-binary character in a video game, whereas 5 years ago that thought would seem crazy. So here we are. I'll let you figure out what is and isn't real given this.



I understand that you have this opinion, but it's just not true. In many cultures objects are gendered and yet they do not have biological sexes. Scientists also agree.


Some excerpts:

About gender identity vs gender role:




About gender identity vs biological sex:




This is from Nature, a top-tier scientific publication. I highly recommend reading it as it discusses some of the very physical reasons why gender might not align with biological sex, including various chemical-based reasons, or reasons when biological sex itself is mixed. E.g.:



In those cases, it's just assholeish when people on this forum or elsewhere insist on calling the person by the wrong pronoun on purpose, because THEY don't believe this and that. These people often have biological differences that are causing them problems, and all people have to do is say "they" instead of she or he or whatever to make their day just a bit better, but no. Somehow this is crazy because the forumites *know better* (read: are just personally uncomfortable with the idea of non-binary) about what these people are going through and the science behind why than, you know, the actual endocrinologists who are studying these things.
Do you think people should be made to use particular pronouns by force of law?
 

joe_zazen

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I'm actually old, so I don't think it's necessarily an age thing. I was more referring to fossilized world-view, not fossilized people ;)
(y)

In most people, they go hand in hand. Youth needs rebellion for creation if identity, the old need stability because they must rely on society for their needs. So youth tends toward ‘tear it down’ while old is conservative. But that doesnt mean they are enemies, just approaching from differing povs.
 

Rhysser

Banned
Jun 22, 2013
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Do you think people should be made to use particular pronouns by force of law?
No.

I don't think there should be any prescribed punishment for it. But I also think people shouldn't be surprised if they are shunned for being inconsiderate a-holes of people's medical issues.
 
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''Nice strawman, but it's uninteresting as all strawmen are.''
You lack self-awareness because YOU were the one who pulled in the racist argument in here (I'm also sure people's great granddads told their grandkids to see therapists for respecting people of color by not using the N* word to describe them,), not me.