Captain Star
Member
Valve deserves to be pubicly laughed at, their game development output is pathetic these days. We all appreciate Steam I'm sure, but Valve ignoring the franchise they built their company on is sad.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Valve rep: "We're also still making games" *audience laughs*
- Thread starter ashecitism
- Start date
DanielJr82
Member
Portal 3, please!
Sosokrates
Report me if I continue to console war
Its not entitlement, its simply my opinion on how a company has handled a situation very poorly.
Just because someone criticizes something it does not mean there entiltled.
But your opinion is utterly stupid, if every company did not owe its customers decent treatment they would not get very far.Its not like im asking valve to pay my bills.
Kadayi
Banned
Games sold pretty well judging by the numbers, and Valve are certainly still in business,, and we're aren't talking about HL3 here, we are talking about episode 3. Which was announced and given an ETA.
Name one other area of business where a company blowing a deadline and then adopting an attitude of radio silence would be considered acceptable by their customer base?
I mean who do you think the customers for episode 3 would be exactly? Save the very people who already bought episodes 1 & 2 on the basis of it being a trilogy with a fast turn around?
Agent_Carnage
Member
Only thing I can think of on why HL 3 isnt being made yet is Valve is waiting for Tech to get better? Maybe their vision of A HL 3 could not of been done as of yet. At some point they should just make the game the fans want. To finish the story they started.
Its like what if Microsoft and Bungie dident want to make a Halo 3 and left the story of the Halo franchise at Halo 2.
Its like what if Microsoft and Bungie dident want to make a Halo 3 and left the story of the Halo franchise at Halo 2.
Last edited:
Fbh
Member
Technology has advanced quite a bit since the last HL game.
I think it's really just not the type of game they are interested in doing anymore. They have probably made more money with Dota 2 than with the entire Half Life franchise so that's the type of experience and revenue model they are going after (which is why their new game is a card game).
Louis Cyphre
Banned
I think it's more of frustration with how they have gotten away from making games period, not just Half Life, because they were/are still one of the most capable of producing great games. Reminds me of successful musicians who can just coast because they are constantly getting a paycheque even though they hardly release any new material.
Red Crayon Aristocrat
Member
I had hoped when Laidlaw leaked what Episode 3 would have been about that would have "forced their hand" to make a statement about the series one way or the other, but no, it's been months and still silence, the same wall of silence that's been surrounding the series for over a decade now.
I would respect them more if they simply came out and said "no, it's never happening" instead of leaving fans hanging indefinitely, they dropped the ball plain and simple.
And what's sad is other great franchises have also been abandoned, namely Portal and Left 4 Dead, I'd love a Left 4 Dead 3, that series is still the most fun I've ever had playing online.
I would respect them more if they simply came out and said "no, it's never happening" instead of leaving fans hanging indefinitely, they dropped the ball plain and simple.
And what's sad is other great franchises have also been abandoned, namely Portal and Left 4 Dead, I'd love a Left 4 Dead 3, that series is still the most fun I've ever had playing online.
TimFL
Member
What does it matter if the costumer base thinks its acceptable or not. They still don‘t owe anyone anything. They are obviously still very much in business because the same people that go „oh get out Valve I have enough of your s***“ are probably on Steam right now buying up games left and right.
They‘ve found a new passion in running a storefront, but they are also still working on games. Just cause they don‘t release a sequel every year doesn‘t mean they are no longer creating games.
I understand why most of you are pissed, I‘d love a L4D3, but I get why it hasn‘t happened yet and I‘m not going around crying about it. I am a hobbyist game dev myself and I have countless of abandoned projects (just like HL3 is abandoned) because I didn‘t feel 100% confident in them. Valve is in the fortunate situation where their revenue stream is more than secured, means they don‘t have to push out sequels to please the costumer base.
ashecitism
Member
Someone asked a Valve dev what they thought about Epistle 3 and he said no big drama occured, the general attitude was "whatever happens happens".
Kadayi
Banned
pipedream
Neo Member
The modern Valve company is a much different company than the Valve that brought games like Half Life and more years ago. The way Valve operates now, it doesn't make much economical sense for them to try and make a AAA game like HL3/etc. They would need to do quite a bit of shake up to the company's organization just to be staffed appropriately to make a modern FPS game. The amount of money it would cost them to invest in a modern HL3, and the time it would take to develop, just doesn't pay off enough financially versus the type of work they are doing now. As I'm sure a lot of people here know, the organization of the employee's at Valve is a bit different from other companies. It's supposedly a flat hierarchy, in which all the employee's are on the same level- there is no supervisor, in theory. Employee's are free to come up with any idea they want, and if enough people think that it's a good idea, they will form a modular pod to work on that project. It's an extremely competitive atmosphere, quite unpleasant from what I've heard- because of the employee organization, it can create some toxic environments in which employee's who aren't popular can get unfairly sidelined. Anyway, because of how these modular project groups work- it dictates a bit the scope of the projects they can do. This is why Valve's software became smaller much more discrete projects- instead of the company working on one big thing, there can be multiple module groups working on different projects, some may be software ideas, some might be purely hardware ideas (this is how the HTC VIVE came about), but the landscape tends to have a lot of movement, and this doesn't lend it'self to stability. People are constantly trying to outshine other groups with new ideas, and clearly you can see how there would be some benefits to the consumer in terms of small innovations, but this is just not an environment that would support the development of a massive project like what HL3 would need to be. When you start seeing this perspective, you can actually see how it could potentially have a big impact on the company and the way it currently operates if it were to go through a employee re-organization that would support HL3 development, because they've gone so far the other way in their operations, it would be a huge gamble trying to do this. So for these reasons, I do not believe we're going to see this current version of Valve make HL3 or those style games like what they did in a previous version of the company. Hope this makes sense.
ashecitism
Member
pipedream
Not just HL, but I'd argue big MP games as well, like L4D. Valve is just 300 people. I saw the idea float around that maybe their space pirate game Stars of Blood wasn't totally cancelled, but they are waiting for Source 2 to mature and it would be their Destiny. However knowing the requirements to make those type of games I don't see how current Valve would make it without abandoning everything else they're doing right now. Also Gabe's son just did an interview and shared an anecdote that he was asking about Source 2 and got always referred to someone else till it got him back to the original person. So there's that too.
Last edited:
pipedream
Neo Member
Oh yes, I absolutely do agree with you- I could of made it more clear, but I agree, we're not just saying HL3, but really the equivalent of any largescale game that would be considered a AAA type release. And someone correct me if I'm wrong here, but weren't games like L4D and Portal originally user created Mod's for the Source engine, and from what I understand Valve liked the work and bought the rights and hired the modders to build the game in an official capacity for the company. So even with some of these big releases, Valve's core staff isn't actually making those games- they are in some ways, buying "indie" studios and then bringing them inhouse to develop these games. And as far as the anecdote, you just witnessed first hand the confusion and chaos that arises from the kind of flat hierarchy environment that Valve has, in most companies, you have a project manger or Supervisor who is DEFINED as that role, so when you have a question as a employee developer you know who to go ask that question too- in the Valve environment, I hear it can be really confusing sometimes finding out who you need to talk to to get help with the problem you're having.... I've had friends who worked there and left, saying they were glad to have worked there- because it's incredible for your resume / CV, but the actual experience was quite negative.
ashecitism
Member
Portal started out as a Digipen student project called Narbacular Drop. Valve liked the pitch and brought them in. L4D was a Turtle Rock project after they made some experiments in Counter-Strike (they gave the opposing bots knives only and found the way they swarmed you in groups interesting). Valve acquired them 10-11 months before the game shipped. L4D2 was mostly Valve.
pipedream
Neo Member
I mean, your questions are kind of rhetorical- I'm not sure what you're expecting / demanding this other user to say. The gaming industry is a bit of an unusual animal, and it's hard to really hold up other industries and directly compare them. Most other industries don't share the same closeness between manufacturer and consumer, that has happened with the game industry, due to the nature of the product. Gamers have a much larger sense of entitlement than consumers in other industries, and honestly, I don't really feel like going into the entitlement because it's a bit complicated in terms of how it developed and why gamers tend to feel like games are "owed" to them, rather than look at games as "gifts" and look at them with a more wholistic attitude.
Sometimes companies fail to make deadlines, and a product fails. Sometimes a movie doesn't get made. But other industries don't typically have the level of transparency that exists in the gaming industry because of the way media / developers, and publishers all interact. We as gamers, are not project managers, we are not investors or shareholders in the companies (well, unless you are of course, I do own some stock
) and thus, to hold some type of grudge or negative attitude towards a company because they failed to produce something- it's not really a logical thing. We definitely have the right to be sad, upset taht we're not going to experience something- but to say we have the right to *demand* something of the company? We don't have the right. Valve did not make a blood pact with us, and swear on our mothers grave, and promise us they would release this or that game. Anyway... my two cents on that.
pipedream
Neo Member
Right on. Thanks for clarifying that even more.
TimFL
Member
I am not deflecting. It is a shitty thing to do in terms of costumer satisfaction. Still, they‘re free to do whatever they want seeing as they are a privately owned company. If they don‘t feel like releasing a product they have no confidence in then theres nothing one can do to change their mind. You can‘t sue them for vaporware. Deal with it I guess.
I do, however, believe that there is a HL3 in development. Whether one guy is working on it or they put it on hold for a few years, it still exists and wasn‘t officially canned yet.
Kadayi
Banned
It's not a shitty thing to do, it's just plain bad business practice. Hubris is the gateway for someone else coming in and eating your lunch. Period. Quark used to be King when it came to professional DTP, but they got complacent (lousy customer service, slow to address serious issues, long delays between patches) and Adobe came in with Indesign bundled with Photoshop & Illustrator as a package with the first release of Creative Suite undercutting their price point per seat and decimated their market share in a couple of years *. So consider this, when Jeff Bezos started Amazon it was about books, now it's Film, TV and music. All media arenas. You think Bezos (who has more money than satan) isn't planning on getting into game digital distribution at some point? Who do you think he's likely to go after for market share? GOG? Valve might be a big fish in DD but Amazon is a killer whale. Your Steam account data can already be read (GOG can add your crossover steam titles to its client once linked) so getting all your steam Games onto an Amazon gaming account is really just a case of Amazon making publisher deals, and I dare say Amazon can offer pretty good incentives to publishers in terms of their cut versus Valve, plus they can probably get both EA & Ubisoft on board, because a unified client means less overhead for them. All it takes is a powerful initial hook. Amazon negotiates exclusive rights to Rockstars Red Dead Redemption 2 PC release would be enough I'd imagine to start the ball rolling.. So I can link my Steam, EA and Uplay accounts and get all my games on the Amazon client, as well as my friend's lists? Sign me the fuck up now Jeffy.
Has anyone mentioned suing them in this thread? Or boycotting them? I don't necessarily have much confidence in them as a developer and I question whether they have the commitment to see things through when the going gets tough, but if the price point was right and VR proves itself to be a visible arena, then I might be on board with the Vive, but it's really down to the software support
* https://arstechnica.com/information...rkxpress-the-demise-of-a-design-desk-darling/
Last edited:
TimFL
Member
You‘re getting way too worked up about this. So what if amazon and co. come and kill Steam, so what if its bad business practice and they‘re losing all their costumers: it‘s not going to change the topic at hand -> Valve is free to do whatever they want, privately owned business. If their decisions are stupid then they are stupid but they still don‘t owe anyone anything.
Kadayi
Banned
Of course, they do. They owe it to themselves. All someone is is their reputation.
My man.
Red Crayon Aristocrat
Member
And the fact that Valve didn't care really was the final nail in the coffin that they don't give a shit about the series and it's truly over with if you ask me.
And it's just as well because maybe now I can actually replay the Half-Life games again, I haven't played 1 and 2 in 8 years because I kept waiting for any further announcements and here lately I thought it would be too painful to revisit them without desperately wanting Episode 3, but now since we have an idea of what Episode 3 would have been like and also as final a word as we're ever going to get that it won't continue, I can just deal with it and enjoy what we did get again.
Serious props for Laidlaw for doing fans a solid like that.
EverydayBeast
thinks Halo Infinite is a new graphical benchmark
True or you could always run games into the ground with too many sequels.
pipedream
Neo Member
This is a point that deserves to be repeated. It's possible that Valve has deliberately and carefully considered their decision to move on from HL. It's possible that Valve came to the conclusion that making HL might be an impossible task, in terms of satisfying the huge expecations that fans would have for such a storied franchise. Sometimes its easy to forget that one of the reasons HL made such a defining impact on the industry as it did, is because of when it was released and the fact that they did things with HL that really hadnt done before. It was a very large, bold step forward in building cinematic, immersive, complex worlds with a high quality narrative. The thing is, HL is no longer really special in this regard, because after HL showed what was possible other devs took those lessons and ran with them, and in some cases probably exceeded the original vision. And so the point being that, if they made HL now, it would really just be another AAA First Person Shooter. It would be much harder to innovate and stand out in the way that they were known for, so perhaps, rather than just adding another shiny expensive first person shooter to the world that would most likely be forgotten not to long after, they decided to just let the Franchise stand as it is.
I mean, could happen.
ashecitism
Member
Just going to repeat what I wrote earlier.
Also, I think the majority of the fans wouldn't care if it weren't revolutionary. They just want the franchise to continue where it left off.
Everyone dying for Half-Life 3 should read this:
https://github.com/Jackathan/MarcLaidlaw-Epistle3/blob/master/Epistle3_Corrected.md
While reading this, I could imagine playing this game in my minds eye, and it was amazing. For a time, about halfway through, I was feeling like this would give me closure. By the time I finished it, I felt just as left out in the cold as the end of Episode 2
Last edited:
If they're just 300 people, then to the earlier point, that's why there's no Half Life 3. There's no way they're staffed enough to produce a AAA shooter in 2018 and keep Steam rolling.
Kadayi
Banned
HL3. has never even been mentioned as a thing publicly. The idea it was ever coming was something dreamt up by the gaming press years ago as a possible explanation as to why HL2: Episode 3 was MIA for so long ('Maybe Valve are making a whole new game ?') For people who played the games it's not about more Half-Life it's about actually delivering and finishing the trilogy of episodes Valve stated would wrap up the HL2 storyline. EP2 left ended on a big cliffhanger, with a clear objective insight regarding the third act.
Last edited:
EverydayBeast
thinks Halo Infinite is a new graphical benchmark
Yeah BUT why would Valve want to release a new game when technology hasn’t changed all that much since H2 outside of VR.
Hari Seldon
Member
I forget which podcaster said it, but if they do make it I hope they just drop it on steam one day with no warning. That would be the biggest gaming event of all time lol.
MrDanGuy
Member
Lets say somehow MS buys Valve, which would probably be the only way Half-Life 3 would ever get released. The release of HL3 would be around 2020-2022 if they gave it everything to make the fans happy. Half-Life released in 1998, and HL2 in 2004. This would mean 2 decades worth of new gamers would be clueless about Half-Life for the most part. Therefore, you remaster the first 2 to lay the foundation, and then release HL3 1-2 years after.
TimFL
Member
I am 99,9% sure that someone at Valve, potentially Gaben himself, said they‘re moving away from the episode structure which means HL2 Ep3 could turn into HL3. It surely was mentioned.
Kadayi
Banned
What part of being the completion of a trilogy of episodes (two-thirds of the way through) didn't quite make sense?
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/news250506halflifeep3
"Episode One is the first in a trilogy of episodes that will conclude by Christmas 2007"
Far from it, quite the reverse: -
https://www.mcvuk.com/development/the-valve-manifesto
If you read the piece the takeaway is more Valve moving to the 'games as service' model and away from definitive sequels (don't expect TF3 or L4D3 anytime soon), though in truth it also seems like they are just talking about their multi-player games, because there certainly wasn't any iteration on Episode 2. I think the confusion lies in the use of the term 'episodic' with people naturally latching onto that as relating to the HL2 Episodes, versus in relation to all their games and the idea of full sequels: -
Blame those Korean developers apparently
Last edited:
MDSLKTR
Member
Edge tease with a crowbar shaped in a "2", then followed by e3 demos. I remember them like it was yesterday
GabeARG
Member
Edge tease with a crowbar shaped in a "2", then followed by e3 demos. I remember them like it was yesterday
So we can hope to see a tease this e3? right? because of the tweet.. and.. may be... L4D3?
Scapegoat
Member
If I recall correctly it was announced to great fanfare at E3 2003, and they said it would release later that year on like September 31st, 2003? This date came and went (I remember an article about an ATI event at Alcatraz Prison where Gabe reiterated the fast-approaching release date). Then the infamous leak hit, I don't recall if it was before or after the initial release date, but I do remember the "backlash". Hungry fans picked apart the leaked files which demonstrated the E3 demos shown months earlier were "faked", with many of the new and interesting AI behaviours shown being completely scripted events.
Of course a year later the full game hit, and even the complete shitshow that was Steam at the time couldn't contain how incredible the game was (once your game files had finally finished decrypting).
Last edited:
EverydayBeast
thinks Halo Infinite is a new graphical benchmark
HL2 has a beginning and an end. My originl point was some game franchises get milked and ran into the ground w/ too many sequels.
Kadayi
Banned
Why in regard to a specific subject would you weigh in with generalities that have no bearing on the case in point? Many people thought the abrupt ending of HL2 was not great. Valve opted to make a trilogy of shorter titles to fill it out more, the last episode of which was supposed to have come out about 10 years ago. This is not exactly a case of franchise oversaturation as with Assasins Creed we are talking here.
LordPezix
Member
If a community develops a game and distributes it for free there couldn't be too many copyright law infringements that could happen right? I mean GAF should just pool resources and make GAF-Life 3, at this point in time I'd why we just don't stop complaining and start putting boot to ass and get this thing done!
Last edited:
deadscreensky
Member
Releasing updates every day strikes me as completely insane, and I can't imagine what sort of "huge value" that offers. Any idea what specific games Newell is referencing there?