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[Piecake]

When a Venezuelan entrepreneur we know launched a manufacturing company in western Venezuela two decades ago, he never imagined he’d one day find himself facing jail time over the toilet paper in the factory’s restrooms. But Venezuela has a way of turning yesterday’s unimaginable into today’s normal.

The entrepreneur’s ordeal started about a year ago, when the factory union began to insist on enforcing an obscure clause in its collective-bargaining agreement requiring the factory’s restrooms to be stocked with toilet paper at all times. The problem was that, amid deepening shortages of virtually all basic products (from rice and milk to deodorant and condoms) finding even one roll of toilet paper was nearly impossible in Venezuela—let alone finding enough for hundreds of workers. When the entrepreneur did manage to find some TP, his workers, understandably, took it home: It was just as hard for them to find it as it was for him.

Toilet-paper theft may sound like a farce, but it’s a serious matter for the entrepreneur: Failing to stock the restrooms puts him in violation of his agreement with the union, and that puts his factory at risk of a prolonged strike, which in turn could lead to its being seized by the socialist government under the increasingly unpopular President Nicolas Maduro. So the entrepreneur turned to the black market, where he found an apparent solution: a supplier able to deliver, all at once, enough TP to last a few months. (We’re not naming the entrepreneur lest the government retaliate against him.) The price was steep but he had no other option—his company was at risk.

But the problem wasn’t solved.

No sooner had the TP delivery reached the factory than the secret police swept in. Seizing the toilet paper, they claimed they had busted a major hoarding operation, part of a U.S.-backed “economic war” the Maduro government holds responsible for creating Venezuela’s shortages in the first place. The entrepreneur and three of his top managers faced criminal prosecution and possible jail time.

All of this over toilet paper.

...

Following Venezuela closely means hearing any number of stories like these. The happy, hopeful stage of Venezuela’s experiment with Chavez’s 21st-century socialism is a fading memory. What’s been left is a visibly failing state that still leans hard on left-wing rhetoric in a doomed bid to maintain some shred of legitimacy. A country that used to attract fellow travelers and admirers in serious numbers is now holds fascination for rubberneckers: stunned outsiders enthralled by the spectacle of collapse.

To the Venezuelans who live its consequences day after day, the spectacle is considerably less amusing. Our toilet-paper seeking industrialist found very little mirth in it. After being arrested on absurd charges of hoarding, he realized that it was just a shakedown: The cops were far less interested in his toilet paper than his money.

“Their opening bid was in the high hundreds of thousands of dollars,” he said. “I thought that was a bit much; we bargained.”

In the end, he said, the cops agreed to drop the criminal charges for a few tens of thousands of dollars.

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/05/venezuela-is-falling-apart/481755/

Really good article. It goes into a lot more detail about it all with a lot more examples and crazy stories.

 

[Fandangox]

It's really sad what has become of this place. I know of people who saw this coming and left the country way before all of this went to the shitter. Exiting the country is also very hard.

The resource problem is not stopping, its getting harder to find anything there these days.

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

Machado's thread keeps this place on my mind. I wonder daily if the country will starve or fall into anarchy first.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

How long till people claim this isn't the fault of Chavez and Maduro but evil captialists and the US who didn't let them implement socialism properly.

Bolivarianism is a cancer on south america

 

[SimleuqiR]

Shame. Beautiful country.

Growing up in the 80's I remember how Venezuela went toe to toe with Mexico when it came to TV Novela productions. Even a lot of musical talent came out of that country.

 

[God Dayumm]

How long till people claim this isn't the fault of Chavez and Maduro but evil captialists and the US who didn't let them implement socialism properly.

Bolivarianism is a cancer on south america

How long ago you mean. That has been the narrative day zero

 

[tearsintherain]

But I read on Neogaf that once you implement socialism everything works out great for everyone. I guess Venezuela just didn't do it right.

 

[dr3upmushroom]

But I read on Neogaf that once you implement socialism everything works out great for everyone. I guess Venezuela just didn't do it right.

This is an incredibly naive post. Chavez was a dictaor not a socialist.

 

[SimleuqiR]

But I read on Neogaf that once you implement socialism everything works out great for everyone. I guess Venezuela just didn't do it right.

What's the point of any time of government, socialist or not, when there is total corruption?

 

[Resident_UA]

But I read on Neogaf that once you implement socialism everything works out great for everyone. I guess Venezuela just didn't do it right.

You do realize that US is technically partially socialist country too? It's all about how you do things rather than just throwing words that you don't understand around.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

This is an incredibly naive post. Chavez was a dictaor not a socialist.

They're never "socialist". lol He nationalized a crap ton of stuff, shut down private enterprises, and did a lot of (horrible) national planning. He was a socialist

 

[Tomasoares]

What's the point of any time of government, socialist or not, when there is total corruption?

It is much easier to be corrupt in a socialist government, though.

 

[Cerium]

This is an incredibly naive post.

I used to think so, but the rhetoric coming from the Bernie stans has been eye opening. We've literally had posters on here talking about banning policy experts and replacing them with common people (like bus drivers for instance).

 

[gutter_trash]

How long till people claim this isn't the fault of Chavez and Maduro but evil captialists and the US who didn't let them implement socialism properly.

Bolivarianism is a cancer on south america

they celebrate it like idolatry

 

[RoadHazard]

But I read on Neogaf that once you implement socialism everything works out great for everyone. I guess Venezuela just didn't do it right.

1. Venezuela is a corrupted dictatorship.
2. Who said that, about which country? Not Sweden and the like I hope, because they're not socialist, but social democratic.

EDIT: Oh, Sanders supporters. Yeah, lol, that's not socialism either.

 

[Resident_UA]

It is much easier to be corrupt in a socialist government, though.

I can buy that argument for communist governments... But what's so special about socialist government that it's more likely to be corrupt? I really don't think of Sweden as corrupt country. In fact it seems to me that pure capitalism facilities corruption even more than socialism. Under capitalism by definition people who have more money have more influence.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

You do realize that US is technically partially socialist country too? It's all about how you do things rather than just throwing words that you don't understand around.

The US is a capitalist country. As are most countries people refer to as socialism (the nordic model).

The distinguishing thing between the two isn't social welfare spending but who owns the means of production. Which in the US and Europe are mostly in private hands with only a few sectors "socialized" Infrastructure, certain natural resources, defense, health (only in places like the UK) as I believe most hospitals and what not are in the Europe are private but run with government funds. I know this very though.

Boliviarism explicitly talks about expropriating privately held property. Which is textbook socialism

How long ago you mean. That has been the narrative day zero

Meant on gaf

 

[PeskyToaster]

But I read on Neogaf that once you implement socialism everything works out great for everyone. I guess Venezuela just didn't do it right.

Once the system is actually implemented and the effects can be known in the real world it magically doesn't pass the litmus test for true socialism or communism.

 

[Resident_UA]

I used to think so, but the rhetoric coming from the Bernie stans has been eye opening. We've literally had posters on here talking about banning policy experts and replacing them with common people (like bus drivers for instance).

That's not a problem with a form of government. That's a problem with stupid people. Socialism does not require that you let stupid people make decisions.

 

[AliasGreed]

Yeah, living in miami you here the horror stories of the Venezuelans that manage to leave the country and make it over here.

Its awful all around.

 

[Chaplain]

I think what we are seeing in Venezuela is a few having absolute control.

“As love of liberty grows dim under socialistic suffocation, as coercion increases, the more brutal it will become. The basic methods of procedure were stated by Karl Marx, and they have been accepted, in varying degrees, by many who are not conscious of their origin. Marx was deeply interested in progress. For this reason, a clever social planner will provoke violence and bloody conflicts. Happy men are weak, but if they can be made wretched, they can be stirred to action. Class must be played against class, and hatred must be stimulated. The economy of nations must be ruined by huge governmental expenditures that lead to bankruptcy. Demagogues, willing to be looked on as God, will deceive the people with impossible promises of freedom from want and freedom from fear. Then a dictator can liquidate the remaining opposition and take control.” (Gordon Clark)

 

[Resident_UA]

The US is a capitalist country. As are most countries people refer to as socialism (the nordic model).

The distinguishing thing between the two isn't social welfare spending but who owns the means of production. Which in the US and Europe are mostly in private hands with only a few sectors "socialized" Infrastructure, defense, health (only in places like the UK) as I believe most hospitals and what not are in the Europe are private but run with government funds. I know this very though.

Guess what? A lot of infrastructure in the US is funded by the government . Also the US has social security. LOL

Sure you can argue that US is less socialist than Sweden, but this broad label that there's such thing as pure socialism or pure capitalism is insane.

FYI - I'm not arguing for either form of government, but I find it ridiculous that people believe that the US is somehow pure capitalism. Pure capitalism could probably only exist in underdeveloped countries where there are no regulations.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

Guess what? A lot of infrastructure in the US is funded by the government . Also the US has social security. LOL

Sure you can argue that US is less socialist than Sweden, but this broad label that there's such thing as pure socialism or pure capitalism is insane.

Yes infrastructure is probably the only large socialist thing about the US and most of Europe.

And social security isn't socialism, its a cash transfer of fiat money. Welfare isn't socialism either.

and your distinction of pure captialism or socialism is silly. Nobody really argues that. We all have mixed economies but the balance on the whole for the Western World is overwhelmingly market capitalism, where private owners interact with some public intervention and some public ownership. Hence capitalism. Its the dominant way in which people interact in the market. Places like the USSR, Cuba, North Korea are/were overwhelming state-owned socialism. Neither was pure but in shorthand one side is capitalist the other socialism. Venezuela was clearly swinging towards the state-owned model.

 

[Chaplain]

A good explanation of socialism:

The Morals of Socialism

 

[Resident_UA]

Yes infrastructure is probably the only large socialist thing about the US and most of Europe.

And social security isn't socialism, its a cash transfer of fiat money. Welfare isn't socialism either.

Social security is re-distribution of wealth. No matter what kind of spin you put on it. Technically even getting medical insurance is redistribution of wealth. Either way it's a stupid argument. It's not like Sweden owns every business. Once again. There's no such thing as pure socialism and there's no such thing as pure capitalism.

 

[Tomasoares]

I can buy that argument for communist governments... But what's so special about socialist government that it's more likely to be corrupt? I really don't think of Sweden as corrupt country. In fact it seems to me that pure capitalism facilities corruption even more than socialism. Under capitalism by definition people who have more money have more influence.

In a socialist model, the goverment has more power and control of what people can or can not do, which allows people to commit crimes with less chance of getting caught than in a more capitalist and free model. A company can be corrupt, but it will never be able to provoke as much damage without state relation.

Also, with more power concentrated on the government, bigger are the chance that they use it to hide the corruption schemer and limit media, justicy and policy freedom.

Sweden isn't really socialist.

 

[Resident_UA]

and your distinction of pure captialism or socialism is silly. Nobody really argues that. We all have mixed economies but the balance on the whole for the Western World is overwhelmingly market capitalism, where private owners interact with some public intervention and some public ownership. Hence capitalism. Its the dominant way in which people interact in the market. Places like the USSR, Cuba, North Korea are/were overwhelming state-owned socialism. Neither was pure but in shorthand one side is capitalist the other socialism. Venezuela was clearly swinging towards the state-owned model.

Don't you find it ironic that all examples you listed are dictatorships? You trying really hard to twist this to fit your narrative

 

[Resident_UA]

In a socialist model, the goverment has more power and control of what people can or can not do, which allows people to commit crimes with less chance of getting caught than in a more capitalist and free model. A company can be corrupt, but it will never be able to provoke as much damage without state relation.

Also, with more power concentrated on the government, bigger are the chance that they use it to hide the corruption schemer and limit media, justicy and policy freedom.

Sweden isn't really socialist.

I really don't understand what you are saying. If Sweden isn't socialist under your definition then who is? I tend to agree with you that Sweden isn't socialist, but that's because I don't believe as such thing as pure socialism exists...

 

[NYCmetsfan]

Social security is re-distribution of wealth. No matter what kind of spin you put on it. Technically even getting medical insurance is redistribution of wealth. Either way it's a stupid argument. It's not like Sweden owns every business. Once again. There's no such thing as pure socialism and there's no such thing as pure capitalism.

Social security is a check the government writes to you. Taxes are separate. (I'm not arguing MMT) This is just fundamental accounting. And even then redistribution isn't the hallmark of socialism, ownership is.

And your bolding is a meaningless phrase no one is arguing about. Nothing in the world is "pure" so its silly to keep making that distinction like it has any place in what's being debated about Venezeulas economic system

(I'm sure some libertarians and anarchists would argue the government monopoly/ownership on fiat currency (money's not a private good since the government can seize, change or destroy it at any) means socialism but that's rather hypothetical and more philosphical)

 

[Slayven]

I miss Fortified Concept

 

[BreezyLimbo]

(We’re not naming the entrepreneur lest the government retaliate against him.)

This quote is some dark humor.

Because how many entrepreneurs in Venezuela have gone under arrest for 'hoarding' toilet paper? I think they would know who it was >_>;

 

[Resident_UA]

Social security is a check the government writes to you. Taxes are separate. (I'm not arguing MMT) This is just fundamental accounting. And even then redistribution isn't the hallmark of socialism, ownership is.

And your bolding is a meaningless phrase no one is arguing about. Nothing in the world is "pure" so its silly to keep making that distinction like it has any place in what's being debated about Venezeulas economic system

(I'm sure some libertarians and anarchists would argue the government monopoly/ownership on fiat currency (money's not a private good since the government can seize, change or destroy it at any) means socialism but that's rather hypothetical and more philosphical)

If you agree with my statement then there's nothing else to argue about. The only point I made was that socialism is not THE reason why Venezuela is falling apart. Calling Venezuela socialist is like calling US socialist. Sure you can find some evidence that it is, but MUCH bigger problem is that it's a DICTATORSHIP.

 

[Fj0823]

Horrible situation, wish there was something to help these people

Meanwhile in every other country a Socialist Party is going "Venezuela also failed to get it right! We are the true socialists who will implement real socialism! Promise!"

 

[NYCmetsfan]

Don't you find it ironic that all examples you listed are dictatorships? You trying really hard to twist this to fit your narrative

Its almost as if large public ownership has a problem with being democratic!

If you want not dictatorships small places like the Zapatista in Chiapas and
Freetown Christiania are more socialist than capitalist.

I miss Fortified Concept

Empty Vessel

 

[NYCmetsfan]

If you agree with my statement then there's nothing else to argue about. The only point I made was that socialism is not THE reason why Venezuela is falling apart. Calling Venezuela socialist is like calling US socialist. Sure you can find some evidence that it is, but MUCH bigger problem is that it's a DICTATORSHIP.

Dictatorships like Egypt, Saudi Arabia, China, Jordan, UAE (which all are much more friendly to private ownership) all seem to not have the same extend of probems as places like North Korea, Cuba and Venezeula (which are moving away or ban private ownership). Its almost as its not so much dictatorship but this whole socialism thing and its inability to properly distribute resources is the major impediment!

Once again, the examples you listed were never truly democratic to begin with. So you can't make a statement saying that they "have a problem with being democratic". In fact the whole idea of communism for example was that the government eventually would play minimal role. Obviously it didn't work out that way. Don't get me wrong, I don't like communism, but the issue with USSR was not that it was "communist". Today Russia is "democratic" and is still acting exactly the same.

I'd argue the constant governmental intrusions into private enterprise and the corruption that this leads to are in effect socialism even it in name they have private ownership.

but you seem to be just repeating things that are factually incorrect (they were never democratic) or meaningless (not such thing as pure) so it seems silly to continue this back and forth

 

[Couleurs]

But I read on Neogaf that once you implement socialism everything works out great for everyone. I guess Venezuela just didn't do it right.

Cool then it should be easy for you to link to a single post where anyone has said this.

 

[Resident_UA]

Its almost as if large public ownership has a problem with being democratic!

Once again, the examples you listed were never truly democratic to begin with. So you can't make a statement saying that they "have a problem with being democratic". In fact the whole idea of communism for example was that the government eventually would play minimal role. Obviously it didn't work out that way. Don't get me wrong, I don't like communism, but the issue with USSR was not that it was "communist". Today Russia is "democratic" and is still acting exactly the same.

 

[Resident_UA]

Dictatorships like Egypt, Saudi Arabia, China, Jordan, UAE (which all are much more friendly to private ownership) all seem to not have the same extend of probems as places like North Korea, Cuba and Venezeula (which are moving away or ban private ownership). Its almost as its not so much dictatorship but this whole socialism thing and its inability to properly distribute resources is the major impediment!

You just listed countries that were heavily sanctioned. Do you really not see what you are doing . It's you keep trying to group them differently to fit the narrative. Once again I'm for private ownership. In fact the first story in this article is about privately owned business. So it's possible in Venezeula... Probably not easy to do, but not something that doesn't exist like you are implying.

but you seem to be just repeating things that are factually incorrect (they were never democratic) or meaningless (not such thing as pure) so it seems silly to continue this back and forth

How is "never being democratic" not true? When was USSR democratic? When was China a functioning democracy? You could argue that Cuba was sort of democratic, but not really well functioning.

 

[Coriolanus]

Dictatorships like Egypt, Saudi Arabia, China, Jordan, UAE (which all are much more friendly to private ownership) all seem to not have the same extend of probems as places like North Korea, Cuba and Venezeula (which are moving away or ban private ownership). Its almost as its not so much dictatorship but this whole socialism thing and its inability to properly distribute resources is the major impediment!

Confirmation bias. See: zimbabwe. Could also see: brazil in the late 80's and early 90's.

 

[Tiops]

I really really hope that Venezuela can someday get out of this shitty situation. It's terrible to read these news (Machado's posts here are heartbreaking), and the fact that we have other governments in Latin America supporting this situation is even worse. We're all so close to them and yet nobody does shit to help the people there.

 

[Rentahamster]

You do realize that US is technically partially socialist country too? It's all about how you do things rather than just throwing words that you don't understand around.

Technically? The means of production is not owned by the working class in the US.

 

[Linkark07]

I really really hope that Venezuela can someday get out of this shitty situation. It's terrible to read these news (Machado's posts here are heartbreaking), and the fact that we have other governments in Latin America supporting this situation is even worse. We're all so close to them and yet nobody does shit to help the people there.

Hopefully soon. The situation there is getting worse and worse each day.

I read somewhere that a few days back, the military were hunting dogs and cats for eat them since they don't have food.

 

[Resident_UA]

Technically? The means of production is not owned by the working class in the US.

All I'm arguing that there's no country on the planet where there's democracy and ALL production is owned by the government.

 

[Beartruck]

Can anyone explain to me why, in conditions like this, Maduro hasnt been ousted. Youd think one of his generals would be sick of this shit. I

 

[mantidor]

Its almost as if large public ownership has a problem with being democratic!

If you want not dictatorships small places like the Zapatista in Chiapas and
Freetown Christiania are more socialist than capitalist.



Empty Vessel

Urrrgh don't remind me.

He would be still excusing Chavez's and Maduro's government, somehow.

 

[Piecake]

Can anyone explain to me why, in conditions like this, Maduro is still alive. Youd think one of his generals would be sick of this shit.

They are likely making out like bandits as well

 

[clemenx]

Can anyone explain to me why, in conditions like this, Maduro is still alive. Youd think one of his generals would be sick of this shit.

Why would they? Militaries are the one controlling most stuff and filling their pockets like no tomorrow.

I'm Venezuelan so I'm open to any questions. Yes, shit is hard here.

 

[forknknife]

1. Venezuela is a corrupted dictatorship.
2. Who said that, about which country? Not Sweden and the like I hope, because they're not socialist, but social democratic.

EDIT: Oh, Sanders supporters. Yeah, lol, that's not socialism either.

There are elections in Venezuela, you can not call it a dictatorship, make up a new term if you want.

 

[Palmer_v1]

We have a thread from a Venezuelan GAF member that blew a lot of minds. Check it out.

Tomorrow is my turn to buy food and I may get arrested for it:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1113196

Machado's thread keeps this place on my mind. I wonder daily if the country will starve or fall into anarchy first.

Yeah, I have his thread subscribed, and it makes me anxious every time I see it bumped.

 

[Mesousa]

Why would they? Militaries are the one controlling most stuff and filling their pockets like no tomorrow.

I'm Venezuelan so I'm open to any questions. Yes, shit is hard here.

Does the media there mention any of this at all?